Some thoughts about Dawn

[Voice]

On 5/12/2016 at 7:33 AM, Dain said:

@Jewel - I've recently become obsessed with this concept.  I was turned onto it mostly due to the Lucifer means Lightbringer chain.  I've always been fascinated by the greatest knight who ever lived, but who isn't drawn to his legend?  Though childish, I feel I have a special connection to Ser Arthur Dayne, for he is my namesake (though spelled differently): I am Dain, son of Richard, son of Arthur.

A sword made from/drawn from stone, and the power/knowledge to create such a sword, just seems pregnant with legend-birthing goop.  Add a helping of the most famous knightly/kingly legend (another namesake of Ser Arthur Dayne's) and it's too much for even the most cynical to ignore. King Arthur is heavily associated with dragons - Pendragon means Dragon's Head (the Dragon must have 3 Heads, after all), his standard featured a red dragon, the red dragon is often associated with the prophecy of his rise. 

I believe that Excalibur was forged with material taken from a skystone - a meteorite. (Basically the basis for the Skystone/A Dream of Eagles/Camulod Chronicles novels.)  

I've not yet worked out  my own version of how all of these interconnected notions come together in our story. Magical swords, legendary knights and dragons are common in fantasy, so one could argue we're reading too far into it. The ideas presented by contributors here continue to help me piece my own theory together. I enjoy this collective effort to work this out.  I certainly would not have made all of these connections without reading other fan theories. But I guess my message is to consider Arthurian legend when brainstorming about this mystery.

 

First of all, let me just say, I share your obsession. LOL

I would love to hear your thoughts on my "How Ice Became Dawn" theory:  http://thelasthearth.com/thread/386/ice-dawn-updated?page=1&scrollTo=21810

 

And I can only agree that Dayne cannot and should not be ignored.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Dawn means almost literally "light bringer", so I'm sure it is. GRRM is a bit obvious at names. I'm also sure it was the original Ice. Even the colour is white, like snow.

[YOVMO]

On May 9, 2016 at 7:01 PM, LmL said:

This would be the one Azor Ahai forged with blood sacrifice (killing his wife Nissa Nissa).

Can I ask you, and I mean this sincerely, how much of these stories do we have to assume are bullshit. I mean, I agree with everything you say here, however, I think it is interesting that there is a history that is so far in the past that the main characters need to take it with a grain of salt. 

I like the idea of a pre-val-steel type of metal. What I am wondering is, if the story of AA and NN is just a myth and if myths are based in some form of truth, then what actually happened, what was this sword and where is it now? 

[LmL]

22 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Can I ask you, and I mean this sincerely, how much of these stories do we have to assume are bullshit. I mean, I agree with everything you say here, however, I think it is interesting that there is a history that is so far in the past that the main characters need to take it with a grain of salt. 

I like the idea of a pre-val-steel type of metal. What I am wondering is, if the story of AA and NN is just a myth and if myths are based in some form of truth, then what actually happened, what was this sword and where is it now? 

I think Martin has written his in world myth to mimic our real world myth. There's always seeds of truth, but lots of metaphors which people usually lose sight of over thousands of years, until the meaning becomes twisted or bizarre. I find that if you analyze Martin's myth the same way you would real myth, it bears a lot of fruit.

Have you read any of my essays or heard my podcast? The answer to your last question is something I have written tens of thousands of words about, it's hard to know where to start with a quick answer. AA's original sword, which I believe was made from a black meteor, may or may not be lurking about in the main story, I am not sure. I think it's possible that what is important might be the recipe for making a Lightbringer, not one specific sword. I think it's possible that any Valyrian steel sword could become like AA's Lightbringer with the right magic and blood sacrifice. 

I believe Martin is envisioning a yin and yang Lightbringer situation, with a black and a white sword which are like an opposite pair. Dawn would obviously be the yang (white) half. I believe Dawn may have been the original "Ice," and that we had a black fire sword and a white ice sword, in other words. It seems likely that the white sword called Dawn brought the end of the Long Night, and the hypothetical black sword of Azor Ahai would have been the one which brought the Long Night, the Nightbringer. 

[Dain]

On 5/16/2016 at 5:52 PM, Voice said:

 

First of all, let me just say, I share your obsession. LOL

I would love to hear your thoughts on my "How Ice Became Dawn" theory:  http://thelasthearth.com/thread/386/ice-dawn-updated?page=1&scrollTo=21810

 

And I can only agree that Dayne cannot and should not be ignored.

There are bits from "How Ice Became Dawn" that will be flavoring my overall theory.  Though, it must be noted that we now know that Jon is NOT, in fact, blood of House Dayne. I was enchanted by that theory when i first learned it, but I knew in heart he's always been a dragon raised by wolves. 

I don't think that Brandon lived a double life as both BTB and the NK. I must now come to terms with the likelihood that GRRM won't live long enough to finish the series. 6 years since he's published a book of ASOIAF and a solid 18 months since his New Year's letter proclaiming immense disappointment for having not completed WoW yet. Well, it's still nowhere to be seen. Another year? Maybe two? That leaves at least a decade for ADOS to be completed. 

[Voice]

On 7/8/2017 at 3:29 PM, Dain said:

There are bits from "How Ice Became Dawn" that will be flavoring my overall theory.  Though, it must be noted that we now know that Jon is NOT, in fact, blood of House Dayne. I was enchanted by that theory when i first learned it, but I knew in heart he's always been a dragon raised by wolves. 

The show isn't canon. Only the books are.

And even the show has yet to reveal the identity of Jon's father.

 

On 7/8/2017 at 3:29 PM, Dain said:

I don't think that Brandon lived a double life as both BTB and the NK.

And yet, we are told that each was a "Stark" associated with Winterfell. One is named Brandon, and Old Nan said the other might have been named Brandon as well.

And... they each lived during the same generation.

Then there's Brandon the Builder's choice of construction material. Who in their right mind would build a Wall made of ice to stop beings made of ice that ride upon ice spiders? Spiders climb walls, and we've already seen Others walk upon the snow... and snow is, of course, just another name for ice.

It would be like building a wall of flame to stop dragons, or a wall of pig excrement to stop Trump.

It's silly to think that the Wall was built to stop the Others from coming south. It wasn't.

The only thing it blocks is wargs...  

 

On 7/8/2017 at 3:29 PM, Dain said:

I must now come to terms with the likelihood that GRRM won't live long enough to finish the series. 6 years since he's published a book of ASOIAF and a solid 18 months since his New Year's letter proclaiming immense disappointment for having not completed WoW yet. Well, it's still nowhere to be seen. Another year? Maybe two? That leaves at least a decade for ADOS to be completed. 

I have no idea. Health and longevity aside, I don't think GRRM has any desire to write the remaining novels. If he did, he would.

Clearly, he favors television production. That's where his interests are now.

[estermonty python]

On 5/9/2016 at 7:01 PM, LmL said:

In my writings you'll find that I believe there were two swords associated with the idea of "Lightbringer," one of which was this icy white sword Dawn / original Ice, and the other was a black sword which was something like a predecessor to Valyrian steel. This would be the one Azor Ahai forged with blood sacrifice (killing his wife Nissa Nissa). There's a story about a black meteor in the Far East in the World of Ice and Fire having to do with some dude named the Bloodstone Emperor who supposedly caused the Long Night with his evil deeds of dark magic... and I think the Bloodstone Emperor and Azor Ahai were actually the same dude, and that Lightbringer was made from that black meteor. That sword would be bad news, Azor Ahai was a bad guy, so on and so forth. Anyway, you can check out those ideas on my page if you're curious. If you're thinking about meteors and swords and Lightbringer then you'll probably dig it. 

You mean like Orphan-Maker, the valyrian sword of House Roxton with a black blade?

Who the hell knows what happened to that sword...we haven't seen House Roxton in the books, and the last we heard about the sword, it was with Jon Roxton when he was killed in the Second Battle of Tumbleton - so it could be in Tumbleton, or it could be buried with Roxton, or it would have been stolen in the subsequent plunder - who knows?

Of course, that isn't the ONLY black object of valyrian steel in the universe.  There's also 

Spoiler

Euron's suit of armor made from black valyrian steel introduced in Aeron's preview TWOW chapter

which would go a long way towards supporting your theory.

[LmL]

6 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

You mean like Orphan-Maker, the valyrian sword of House Roxton with a black blade?

Who the hell knows what happened to that sword...we haven't seen House Roxton in the books, and the last we heard about the sword, it was with Jon Roxton when he was killed in the Second Battle of Tumbleton - so it could be in Tumbleton, or it could be buried with Roxton, or it would have been stolen in the subsequent plunder - who knows?

Of course, that isn't the ONLY black object of valyrian steel in the universe.  There's also 

  Hide contents

Euron's suit of armor made from black valyrian steel introduced in Aeron's preview TWOW chapter

which would go a long way towards supporting your theory.

Well, all Valyrian steel is very dark grey, with there being some degree of variation (according to George). Ned's sword is "smoke dark," which sounds dark grey, but his ancestor who also carried Ice was nicknamd "Barth Blacksword," with the black sword obviously being Ice. So loosely speaking, all Valyrian steel is "black steel." 

[LmL]

I've always found this sigil curious...

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Farring

Especially because the one who scoops up Stannis's fake Lightbringer is a Farring:

Quote

By the time the song was done, only charwood remained of the gods, and the king's patience had run its course. He took the queen by the elbow and escorted her back into Dragonstone, leaving Lightbringer where it stood. The red woman remained a moment to watch as Devan knelt with Byren Farring and rolled up the burnt and blackened sword in the king's leather cloak. The Red Sword of Heroes looks a proper mess, thought Davos.

 

[Nezza86]

I sort of think that Dawns only significance is that it was made from a meteor. So if Jon was born at the Tower of Joy then he fulfills part of the azor ahai prophecy about being born under a bleeding star or whatever it is.

It wouldnt quite close up enough loose ends if Jon is half Dayne. Why would that have to be kept such a secret from everyone? Robert didn't hate Daynes he hated Targaryens. When Luwin tells Ned that Jon wants to join the Nightswatch he thinks its a good idea. And Ned finally decides to tell Jon about his parentage once he sees him next, or when he's a sworn member of the NW, meaning he gives up any entitlements. Although I've always wondered why Ned wouldn't just tell Catelynn if Jon was Lyannas baby to Rhaegar. The best I can come up with is he either didn't know she was horrible to him growing up and didnt bother or wanted her hatred to be real to help his true identity. Regardless if anyone is half Dayne, my money is on Dany.

The story we've heard about Lightbringer is about how it was made, not a history of its owners over the years. If George wanted his story to be about a long lost artifact then wouldn't we have more accounts of duals being fought that involved Dawn and some information about it passing to others.

Also I dont really take any of the info from outwith ASOIAF as that relevant to the story. It'd be a bit lazy of George to write all these books and not include all the relevant information for the end game within the 7 books of the series. All the quirky little stories about Dawn from World are just fluff really.

My theory on lightbringer is much more rounded out than the Dawn theories. I won't write an essay on here since the subject is about Dawn. But I think its more likely that Ice is in the process of becoming Lightbringer, and the tempering from the AA story are blood sacrifices of old noble families: Ned (water), Jaime and/or Cersei (lion), Dany (Nissa Nissa). I wrote it all down in a post if anyone is interested, its called The Journey from Ice to Lightbringer.

No doubt nobody will bother to pay any attention to this sort of post as usual though.

[estermonty python]

19 hours ago, LmL said:

Well, all Valyrian steel is very dark grey, with there being some degree of variation (according to George). Ned's sword is "smoke dark," which sounds dark grey, but his ancestor who also carried Ice was nicknamd "Barth Blacksword," with the black sword obviously being Ice. So loosely speaking, all Valyrian steel is "black steel." 

From The Princess and the Queen:

By day’s end, Lord Rowan was retreating north with the remnants of his host, Tom Flowers lay dead and burned amongst the reeds, the two Alans had been taken captive, and Lord Costayne was dying slowly from a wound given him by Bold Jon Roxton’s black blade, the Orphan-Maker. 

There are no other mentions of black Valyrian steel in the canon.  There are some examples of regular black steel, including the Targ suits of armor, Jeor Mormont's axe that he gives to Craster, Waymar Royce's sword, and the armor of some of the Western lords, but no Valyrian steel.

I also disagree that "blacksword" is necessarily a reference to Ice, for the simple reason that Ice wasn't black.  More likely it's a reference to the fact that the Barthogan's father entered the Dance of Dragons on the side of the blacks - during the short reigns of Barth and his brothers, the fact that the Starks won the war for the blacks presumably would have been the most notable connection to the family name. We know almost nothing about him, so we don't know what connection he had to, for example, the Blackwoods, including the descendants of Black Aly Blackwood, his father's second wife, or his 4 stepsisters who were half-Blackwood.  We might get some insight if The She Wolves of Winterfell is ever published.