Heresy Branch Office E05

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

I further wonder if this forgetfulness, this possible deriliction of pact-sworn duties, may be what precipitated the current instability.

As for WW "blood" in the family- if my admittedly tinfoil theories about Symeon Star(k)-Eyes being a half-human/half-Other and Jon being the current incarnation of that hero pan out, well, quite a lot...

And we have Brandon Ice Eyes Stark retaking the Wolf's Den during a blizzard.

32 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--I wonder at times if the Night's King's actions got mixed up with the Starks' fighting with the rest of the North. That when they threw the Night's King down, they stopped most of the intense warring. But that might be too easy.

I think there's an excellent chance that the White Walkers were originally made from Starks. They likely take Craster's boys for a reason. If so, I'm thinking that they all still have the same blood--or as much as is possible once one group has been transformed by children.

i'm thinking this also has to do with why the Starks are in the crypts--their shades can rise and they are wargs. And that might be why they were chosen by the children to be transformed into another form of life.

So "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is just a promise to have WW parts available? Funny and probably true.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, House Toad said:

He used a fire weapon, not quite fire, the sword called Lightbringer in the battle for Dawn?

I was trying to establish the roots of the Asshai prophecy of two wintersized monsters, and the eastern dragon slain?

Nope.

In Westeros we have no stories of Azor Ahai. We do have the story of the Last Hero, but far from having a fiery sword, when we last hear of him his sword is broken - and there's no tradition of him making a new one, which is why Maester Aemon needs to refer Jon to the Jade Companion, and why Davos needs to get the story from Sallhador San.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, House Toad said:

He used a fire weapon, not quite fire, the sword called Lightbringer in the battle for Dawn?

I was trying to establish the roots of the Asshai prophecy of two wintersized monsters, and the eastern dragon slain?

The Asshai prophesy makes no mention of the North at all; just maunders on about a time of great darkness and a hero arising. The only concrete bit we have is a story of Azor Ahai slaying a "monster" which describes something sounding rather like a dragon. Location is unstated, but its a story from out east - and an east which was worked over by the Valyrians and their dragons.

[Tucu]

36 minutes ago, TheMiddleHero said:

I think we are shown very little on how this played out. A few things that I ponder on:

1- I see how they made the WW, yet not what was let us say "fused" to this captive. We have seen  Orell's eagle still hates Jon, though Orell is now dead, so it seems to propel the idea that malice can live on in I guess what would be a "second life." Is this being (NK) infused with hatred from the weirwoods (hivemind?) Or something else? Did they unleash a nameless god? If they did are their gods not what they thought they were?

 

2- Does this essentially mean that the Battle for the Dawn and the removal of the Night's King were in fact the same event?

 

3- (Crackpottyish but...) Was the NK supposed to be replaced like Bloodraven by Bran? Is he angry because he is way past his time? (Like Bloodraven, yet more so.)  Possibly the PtwP was intended to take his place (much like Craster's sons were offered) and he has not replaced him because there was a giant ice wall with wards put in to stop this? Was a prince of Winterfell intended to take the NK place, his torturous existence and has long been denied?

I am not sure what to believe of the Battle of the Dawn. We know that the CoTF/Others were responsible for the WW but we have no confirmation that they triggered the Long Night. Looking at the Wall it doesn't look like the CoTF/Others were defeated. So what caused and stopped the Long Night? A battle that wasn't won ended something not caused by either side?

[House Toad]

3 hours ago, hiemal said:

I am sorry, but you are misunderstanding my point- I did not say that there were no swords, but that they are not as important as some think they are.

The Lightbringer legend, I believe, refers not just to forging actual, literal swords but to breeding and childbirth- childbirth wherein the mother dies during delivery, becoming a Nissa-Nissa pierced by a fatal "sword".

Given the thematic similarity between that and the ceremony that created the WWs (another blade to the heart) AND the convenient presence in the "modern" storyline of three heroes whose mothers also passed in childbirth- Tyrion, Jon, and finally Dany (success at last and Lightbringer is reborn with three heads!) I feel like there is enough there to run up some tinfoil and declare a theory.

Of course I could be completely wrong, but I'm still placing my personal bets on this pony.

 

Cough Dany Cough Jon. We know Tyrion is a little monster . 

3 heads before we get back into this debate, raging across the forums. Viserys Aegon Daenerys. Not the 3 dragons again make 3 riders make 3 betrayals make 3 Targeryens make 3 hearts make 3 monsters make 3 swords make 3 heroes make 3 endings making three 3. Arrgghhhhhhh, who knows what is this 3? Sshh Toad is tree?

The hero and the sword. Does that breed triplets formulating algebra.

And the funny thing is little Ned is running about the Riverlands as we speak, so what happened there? Or has the squire died?

Let's put this to you, but what if Bran was taken there to resurrect Jon for the importance of the heroic need in slaying that heart? Purely guesswork because we all are doing it. Why be shown an affected past for what purpose, but not to tell Jon he is the mighty 3?

How does that work if Bran wargs and ends the cycle at the same time? No it won't go down like that, just having fun.

 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

This is the point where history gets even murkier. The Starks deposed the 13th Lord Commander and then went on a rampage conquering First Men tribes that had Greenseers or CoTF as allies. At some point they stopped and became the champions of the weak, the helpless and justice:

I wouldn't necessarily see it in quite such stark terms. Old Nan suggests to Bran that the Nights King was a Stark and that it was his brother who overthrew him. The "rampage" could have been collateral in overthrowing the Nights King and his allies, or it could have been ended with the bringing down of the Nights King.

[Black Crow]

40 minutes ago, TheMiddleHero said:

 

2- Does this essentially mean that the Battle for the Dawn and the removal of the Night's King were in fact the same event?

 

Wouldn't be surprised. The whole point of this POV style of writing which GRRM favours is that we see the same current events from different angles. If we're talking in historical terms there's equally no reason why some of the different stories we're told actually relate to the same event from a different angle - while others which might exhibit some similarities may be different ones entirely.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I wouldn't necessarily see it in quite such stark terms. Old Nan suggests to Bran that the Nights King was a Stark and that it was his brother who overthrew him. The "rampage" could have been collateral in overthrowing the Nights King and his allies, or it could have been ended with the bringing down of the Nights King.

I was just trying to point out the big holes in the history of the Starks between those 3 phases. The Starks have a history of hunting down CoTF but ended being devoted followers of the Old Gods religion and a key part of the peace between races.

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

We do have the story of the Last Hero, but far from having a fiery sword, when we last hear of him his sword is broken - and there's no tradition of him making a new one, which is why Maester Aemon needs to refer Jon to the Jade Companion, and why Davos needs to get the story from Sallhador San.

Not entirely accurate, since it's not clear where the Last Hero's blade of "dragonsteel" fits in the legends--is this the blade that broke, or something that he acquired later? At the least, Dawn is an old weapon which, according to the WB, matches Valyrian steel in durability and sharpness; that in itself is suggestive that it might be able to replicate the performance of Longclaw against the Others--within the show's canon, anyway.

I'm also not convinced that Westerosi tales of the Long Night couldn't have made their way eastward, with the truth increasingly distorted in the retelling, and the passage of time.

[hiemal]

3 hours ago, House Toad said:

Cough Dany Cough Jon. We know Tyrion is a little monster . 

3 heads before we get back into this debate, raging across the forums. Viserys Aegon Daenerys. Not the 3 dragons again make 3 riders make 3 betrayals make 3 Targeryens make 3 hearts make 3 monsters make 3 swords make 3 heroes make 3 endings making three 3. Arrgghhhhhhh, who knows what is this 3? Sshh Toad is tree?

The hero and the sword. Does that breed triplets formulating algebra.

And the funny thing is little Ned is running about the Riverlands as we speak, so what happened there? Or has the squire died?

Let's put this to you, but what if Bran was taken there to resurrect Jon for the importance of the heroic need in slaying that heart? Purely guesswork because we all are doing it. Why be shown an affected past for what purpose, but not to tell Jon he is the mighty 3?

How does that work if Bran wargs and ends the cycle at the same time? No it won't go down like that, just having fun.

 

I agree, my guess as to who the heads of the dragon is just that- but I flatter myself that it is at least a somewhat well-formulated bit of tinfoil with some text to back it up. Complete failure is always an option when you deal with tinfoil, though.

Do you mean Beric's squire? Irrelevant- he is Lord of Starfall, not Sword of the Morning. I think he was wet-nursed to spare his Lady Mother's boobs not because she was dead but I do wonder what his future holds- hopefully more than a length of hempen rope or a blade in the back from Darkstar.

I don't think Bran will have that power, ever- I just don't think raising the dead is in the Old Gods' repertoire. It goes against the fundamental cycle of nature. Perverting that order, in the form of the WWs, has already cost the CotF dearly, perhaps to the extinction of their entire race.

I'm not confident enough of Bran's path to make even my usual outlandish predictions but I do think he is probably the Last Hero, who in the first go-round sought the aid of the CotF.

 

 

 

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

I was just trying to point out the big holes in the history of the Starks between those 3 phases. The Starks have a history of hunting down CoTF but ended being devoted followers of the Old Gods religion and a key part of the peace between races.

Spitballing... what if:

During the Long Night when the Others had penetrated to what is now Winterfell the Starks made a pact with the Others which includes, among other things, provisions that Starks must be buried intact in the crypts and there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Later, after battling the Warg King and the Marsh Kings the Starks make other pacts and make other marriages (because perhaps there had been Other marriages) which diluted the force of the original pact. Time passes, history becomes legend, legends are forgotten, and the Kings of Winter become the Lords of Winterfell and lose themselves to such a point that the original pact is broken, and the WW's march to take their due.

As Ned reflected, there is a special, frozen Hell for the Starks, one they made for themselves long ago and now forgotten but not forgetting it sends its devils to claim its own...

 

[House Toad]

5 hours ago, hiemal said:

I agree, my guess as to who the heads of the dragon is just that- but I flatter myself that it is at least a somewhat well-formulated bit of tinfoil with some text to back it up. Complete failure is always an option when you deal with tinfoil, though.

Do you mean Beric's squire? Irrelevant- he is Lord of Starfall, not Sword of the Morning. I think he was wet-nursed to spare his Lady Mother's boobs not because she was dead but I do wonder what his future holds- hopefully more than a length of hempen rope or a blade in the back from Darkstar.

I don't think Bran will have that power, ever- I just don't think raising the dead is in the Old Gods' repertoire. It goes against the fundamental cycle of nature. Perverting that order, in the form of the WWs, has already cost the CotF dearly, perhaps to the extinction of their entire race.

I'm not confident enough of Bran's path to make even my usual outlandish predictions but I do think he is probably the Last Hero, who in the first go-round sought the aid of the CotF.

 

 

 

Sshh Toad don't put three together Tinfoil keeps all the monsters at bay, alienminium foils them.

Edric Dayne known also as Ned could just be a coincidence, but who did Ned have that affair with? Or was Wylla just giving away baby names?

Bran has the powerrr, because aren't we getting Coldhands on the? The Old Gods made the WWs, hmm?

Nobody can foresee Bran's paradox, it's all guesswork. At this point the formula doesn't even matter, it could be there, but a betrayal means what here?

[House Cambodia]

I've been tied to Jon being the Last Hero, but look what happened: Bran lost his companions Jojen, his horse, Hodor, and his dog Summer. Yup, I'm converted. Of course, it doesn't look good for Meera ...

[House Toad]

1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

I've been tied to Jon being the Last Hero, but look what happened: Bran lost his companions Jojen, his horse, Hodor, and his dog Summer. Yup, I'm converted. Of course, it doesn't look good for Meera ...

Nothing looks good at this point.... They all have lost so much.

Does armageddon bring false messiahs, rapturing, repeating, withering?

Not a Dreamsong echoing of rebirth? Nobody knows what that future brings..

[House Cambodia]

And has anybody drawn any implications about two different actors playing the Night's King?

Can we deduce that the NK is a title, passed down the lineage, like Lord's Commander of the NW? Jon came face to face with the current one whereas the one that marked Bran is from the past - possibly the original NK, the 13th Commander of the NW.

Bran witnessed a guy being sacrificed at the Weirwood in the summer, then in his next visit it was winter and the tree was dead. Instead of children there were wights and WW, including the NK - same place, same guy but after the onset of Winter.

[House Toad]

Two sides to a coin. Meaning also likewise similarity from investing ravenhood?

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I've been tied to Jon being the Last Hero, but look what happened: Bran lost his companions Jojen, his horse, Hodor, and his dog Summer. Yup, I'm converted. Of course, it doesn't look good for Meera ...

Very much so, and while the usual health warning needs to be observed with regards to those losses so far only happening in the mummers' version, such an interpretation is wholly compatible with the passage from that old Winds of Winter synopsis - see the OP to the main heresy thread on the ADwD page promising : "two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire". The parallels between Bran's journey and what he finds correspond so closely that we can be reasonably sure that the heart of ice and Conrad's heart of darkness are one and the same and that both lie in the cave of the children, not in the Land of Always Winter.

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Not entirely accurate, since it's not clear where the Last Hero's blade of "dragonsteel" fits in the legends--is this the blade that broke, or something that he acquired later? At the least, Dawn is an old weapon which, according to the WB, matches Valyrian steel in durability and sharpness; that in itself is suggestive that it might be able to replicate the performance of Longclaw against the Others--within the show's canon, anyway.

As he was in trouble and it was broken, I think that we can probably rule out a connection to Dawn, though not necessarily to his being given it afterwards by the tree-huggers, though where they might have got it from the Gods only know. Alternatively he may have been given the magic recipe for making dragonsteel/Valyrian steel. On the whole I'm inclined to doubt both. I don't see it as being credible that a race who worked no iron could come up with it.

I think its far more likely that they armed him with dragonglass and that in the stories over the long years since the two have gotten confused.

As to the stories travelling east from Westeros and getting embellished, I remain unconvinced, but even if it turns out to be the case and I concede that it could do, we should not expect the embellished version to be the one actually enacted.

[Tucu]

26 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

As he was in trouble and it was broken, I think that we can probably rule out a connection to Dawn, though not necessarily to his being given it afterwards by the tree-huggers, though where they might have got it from the Gods only know. Alternatively he may have been given the magic recipe for making dragonsteel/Valyrian steel. On the whole I'm inclined to doubt both. I don't see it as being credible that a race who worked no iron could come up with it.

I think its far more likely that they armed him with dragonglass and that in the stories over the long years since the two have gotten confused.

As to the stories travelling east from Westeros and getting embellished, I remain unconvinced, but even if it turns out to be the case and I concede that it could do, we should not expect the embellished version to be the one actually enacted.

The inclusion of iron and dragonsteel weapons in the Long Night legends and the oath of House Reed to the Starks are anachronisms. Unless the Starks were Rhoynar fire-mages that arrived from the sea (or something similar). The First Men represented by earth, bronze and ice and the Starks by water, iron and fire.

 

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Alternatively he may have been given the magic recipe for making dragonsteel/Valyrian steel. On the whole I'm inclined to doubt both. I don't see it as being credible that a race who worked no iron could come up with it.

If they offered any assistance there at all, it may have been guiding him toward imbuing the weapon with sorcery, and not specifically in the forging; the 'Lightbringer' of legend is, after all, only a well-crafted sword until the appropriate price is paid to make it special.

I have an inkling that whatever sorcery gave Beric his burning blood - literally giving him a heart of fire - is an important factor in the 'recipe.' Maybe it's as straightforward as someone having been resurrected by fire, and then setting their own sword ablaze in combat like Beric. Or, more speculatively, a true Red Sword could be made by quenching Oathkeeper (or a re-forged Ice) in Stoneheart's...errr, heart.