Discussing Sansa XXV: Who let the dogs out...

[Davrum]

16 minutes ago, Darksky said:

The smirks were uncalled for. She wanted to be independent and yet in the end had to rely on a guy, who did a lot of harm to her and her family. And who knows how she will have to repay him. The army came with a price.

No, the army was Littlefinger repaying her for his massive cock-up in leaving her with Ramsay. That was made clear when she and Brienne made Littlefinger wet himself at their little pow-wow.

Now they're even.

[holding]

17 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

It was his brother, he can't just stand there and watch, emotions make you forget all the advices

It's already been said on this thread several times, but: riding to save Rickon was reasonable; his one man charge at the Bolton army after Rickon was dead was not. If he cannot even begin to control his emotions, then he has no business commanding an army. Focusing on the fight at hand doesn't make you cold or emotionless or evil; you mourn the dead after the battle has been won.

13 minutes ago, Red Tiger said:

I dont understand why people are surprised about them messing up girl power, do the words "Sand Snakes" ring a bell?

Unfortunately the writers don't seem to understand that strength comes in many different forms. Their 'girl power' moments tend to be showing the female characters as 'bad ass' cold blooded killers as opposed to writing a range of women with different personality traits, strengths, weaknesses and motivations. Sansa here = Arya = Cersei = Cat = Dany.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

18 minutes ago, Davrum said:

Not delivering the Vale army to such a wasteful incompetent as Jon Snow was shown in no uncertain terms to have been a very smart move on Sansa's part.

Oh come on, stop giving the bicth the credit. Delivering Vale army to Jon? Sorry Vale Army would never listen to any of outsider commander in the first place. They came as an aid and that's it. You think Sansa didn't tell Jon because she's scared that Jon would ruin the Vale army? That is the shittiest logic ever. So the Vale army don't have commander of their own. They came as some rental army? Lol 

At best if she told Jon the Vale coming in the first place, he would just wait for them a bit longer and less people would have to die. Jon wouldn't control Vale army even if they had came earlier. As if they would listen to him. 

And for Fxxx sake, bitch Sansa didn't command any army. She called for help and they came and that's all. 

[Future Null Infinity]

5 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

No shit, she didn't lure Ramsay out. Please stop giving Sansa credit she didn't do. She asked for Vale army and that's it. She didn't command any fxxxxx army. She didn't give any strategy at all. 

Yes I'm giving her credit because I don't see other reasons why she waited too long before the attack other than luring and waiting the army of Ramsay to recede from Winterfell

[Darksky]

4 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

No shit, she didn't lure Ramsay out. Please stop giving Sansa credit she didn't do. She asked for Vale army and that's it. She didn't command any fxxxxx army. She didn't give any strategy at all. 

This. Seriously her role was just to send a letter and allow things to happen. She didn't actively plan things, she didn't implement them.

She didn't contribute anything to the battle, as I think Littlefinger and the Vale would have come anyway, even without her letter. She would have contributed if she had divulged information about the Vale to her allies.

[Future Null Infinity]

1 minute ago, holding said:

It's already been said on this thread several times, but: riding to save Rickon was reasonable; his one man charge at the Bolton army after Rickon was dead was not. If he cannot even begin to control his emotions, then he has no business commanding an army. Focusing on the fight at hand doesn't make you cold or emotionless or evil; you mourn the dead after the battle has been won.

Sorry my friend, I didn't read your previous posts

[Davrum]

7 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Oh come on, stop giving the bicth the credit.

Calm down sillygoose.

[Darksky]

5 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Oh come on, stop giving the bicth the credit. Delivering Vale army to Jon? Sorry Vale Army would never listen to any of outsider commander in the first place. They came as an aid and that's it. You think Sansa didn't tell Jon because she's scared that Jon would ruin the Vale army? That is the shittiest logic ever. So the Vale army don't have commander of their own. They came as some rental army?

Watch Sansa stans claim Sansa commanded them...as in prepared battle tactics, gave motivational speeches and all. lol

She is nothing more than a figurehead. A mascot.

7 minutes ago, holding said:

It's already been said on this thread several times, but: riding to save Rickon was reasonable; his one man charge at the Bolton army after Rickon was dead was not. If he cannot even begin to control his emotions, then he has no business commanding an army. Focusing on the fight at hand doesn't make you cold or emotionless or evil; you mourn the dead after the battle has been won.

Do you actually believe that he had options when he found himself near Ramsay's army? There was no option to retrieve as that would have just ended up in him being killed in a manner undignified for a fighter (an arrow through the back upon retrieving). At that point there was no other choice but to charge ahead.

[Davrum]

1 minute ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

1) bitch

2) bitch

3) Bitch

4) Bitch

5) bitch 

6) bitch 

7) bitch

This is just getting embarrassing. Maybe you should take a cold shower.

[Future Null Infinity]

1 minute ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

1) Maybe bitch didn't know when the Vale army would come

2) Maybe the bitch was waiting for her bastard brother to die but unfortunately he didn't. 

3) Bitch didn't lure Ramsay out. It was Ramsay who decided to go out in the first place because he was sure he would win the battle. 

4) Bitch didn't give any strategy to any side at all. Jon asked her specifically many times but she stayed silent. 

5) If there was any strange aka to wait for her bastard brother and his supporters die first, it would have been LF's idea in the first place, so that bitch could get whole WF for herself. It would be that LF calculated to marry bitch to Robin and get control of both the North and Vale through Sansa and Robin.

6) Had Jon died, Vale army would be the one to break WF gate and bitch Sansa wouldn't think that she would become puppet again, this time for the Vale and LF.

7) credit for the bitch if Jon died: good move girl, you're a pawn again because the army that destroyed WF's gate was Vale, so not both you and WF will be under Vale's control.

Calm down my friend, we are discussing fictional characters here

[OldGimletEye]

1 hour ago, Davrum said:

She judged Jon to be a risky, hot-headed battle commander, and was proven correct. Remember also this is the goober who planned a surprise sneak attack on Karl's gang at Craster's and when the time came he charged in making as much noise as possible. Jon's brave as hell, but far from a tactical genius.

And where exactly did Sansa state she believed Jon to be an incompetent commander? And if she believed him to be incompetent, then why did she beg him to take over her re-take Winterfell project?

And finally, if she believed Jon was not fit to command, why couldn't she just be blunt about it to Jon? That kind of direct honesty is better than the sneaking around crap she did, given the what was at stake. It's not like Jon could have done anything to her or would have if she had given her blunt and candid assessment, if what you're trying to argue here has any basis at all.

And letting Jon know about the Vale forces doesn't mean Jon has to take overall command. Perhaps, Bronze Yohn could have taken overall command and she could have worked that out.

 

ETA:

And as far as the hot headed bit goes: Hey look, we all know Jon messed up by rushing out to save Rickon. That was a tactical mistake. But, come on. It was his brother out there running for his life. So like, can we be a bit honest here and acknowledge that Jon's actions, while from a purely tactical point of view were ill advised, it was understandable from a human point of view.

 

[holding]

Just now, Darksky said:

Do you actually believe that he had options when he found himself near Ramsay's army? There was no option to retrieve as that would have just ended up in him being killed in a manner undignified for a fighter (an arrow through the back upon retrieving). At that point there was no other choice but to charge ahead.

What is the range on a bow and arrow? On horseback he would have had a much better chance returning to his own front line than charging ahead alone which should have (and almost did) get him and all of his men killed. The show focused on Tormund saying 'don't do it' or something under his breath just before Jon charged, so clearly we were supposed to realize it was a stupid move.

[Davrum]

2 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Do you actually believe that he had options when he found himself near Ramsay's army? There was no option to retrieve as that would have just ended up in him being killed in a manner undignified for a fighter (an arrow through the back upon retrieving). At that point there was no other choice but to charge ahead.

Anyone with an imagination knows he had options. And anyone who watched the episode knows he had a horse and would have been out of range before Ramsay or his archers could reach for another arrow.

The fact he didn't scoop his little brother up on his horse ambulance to ride (or send) him back to the red priestess he has on staff back at camp was so dopey I cringed.

[Darksky]

No way would he have retrieved and left Rickon there to be trampled. If he had dismounted, then grabbed Rickon and tried to get him on the horse, he'd have been leaving himself open for arrows. That would have taken a few minutes at least. Plenty of time for Ramsay to shoot a few of those fuckers.

[Maid So Fair]

1 hour ago, Risto said:

 

Even before Lyanna Mormont, there were many differences between two version. We never had problems separating the two

They don't absolve hers, but when people argue that Sansa's mistake killed thousands, we should also be aware that if there wasn't for Jon's suicidal charge, the army would have never been caught in a trap.

And in this situation, how it isn't? As Jon said, it was obvious advice. And generally speaking, it kinda was. But as generic as that piece of advice was, the fact that Jon ignored it, shows how actually valuable it had been. Jon should have listened more carefully and not easily disregard what she has to say. 

Ramsay's forces were already out of the walls. Vale army wouldn't stand a chance marching on WF. The siege itself would have never worked. Ramsay's armies were out because Ramsay knew, or at least believed Jon's numbers can't overcome him. Which is why the plan was to play defense. To lure Ramsay into coming to them, by being overconfident. That is where Sansa's advice play in. She knew that Ramsay will play him and lure Jon into his own trap and Jon allowed it. He fell in trap that he was warned about.

This is all much stronger case in the books. In the TV show, we see lords harboring Sansa, but not being too obsessed with saving her. We see SR who is not as attached to her as he is in the books. Truly and without any doubt, that army was there because of LF and no one else.

It does matter as it shows that Sansa didn't own Vale forces, but had actually to ask and make promises for it. In that letter she promised to reward LF and the preview for the next episode showed us that we will see that coming into play. She chose alliance with him because she had no choice. She rejected him, but only after they had no other options and Jon decided to march on WF, she decided to make a deal with devil. She knew what LF wants and she was ready to offer it. She knew what she has to offer. That is what we will see in the next episode. And I think that will show why it was difficult for Sansa to surrender that choice to anyone but herself.

There were some talks that she was going to cast some magic to protect Jon's army, which, obviously, didn't happen... She was completely useless. 

Of course. Call it my own jump the shark Sansa moment. I love Sansa bit I just can't root for this character.

They would still be outnumbered 2:1. Yes, his decision was stupid. So was hers.

Jon didnr purposefully ignore it - he got caught in the moment, which, yes, was a mistake. But wihrou having specific information about what was likely to happen there's not much he could have done to prepare himself for this situation. Just like be careful and don't fall into a trap is a piece of non-advice, so is don't react impulsively when your family members lives re at stake. But you know what would have been great? Instead of yelling at him and providinf vague threats,  Sansa could have been standing right there next to Jon, making sure he doesn't do anything stupid. 

I don't believe thisbia the case but that's what people have been saying - personally think that Ramsay is easily provoked and couldn't stop himself trying to engage Jon even if he wanted to. The temptation would be way too high. As for Jon, he wasn't warned about this trap - he was just told it's  trap. Which, duh, of course it is. They're severely outnumbered, out equipped and out supplied.

She only had no choice because of her earlier bad (non)choices leading to this very desperate dependence. If she played her cards well from the start, she could have come at this from a position of power. She could have made her promises to people who are more trustworthy than LF. The fact that it's a difficult choice is really immaterial - she only has herself to blame.  And again, once she made her choice - why keep it to herself?

It's a shame. Having Mel insist that if they make their stand right here, right now, would have been a great way to explain away Jon's sudden illogical urgency. More clever scripting would have made sure to put the  Starks biggest assets - a priestess that can see the future and the local knowledge of WF to a much better use (than none). No shadowbabiesnto be seen either. 

[Maid So Fair]

5 minutes ago, Darksky said:

No way would he have retrieved and left Rickon there to be trampled. If he had dismounted, then grabbed Rickon and tried to get him on the horse, he'd have been leaving himself open for arrows. That would have taken a few minutes at least. Plenty of time for Ramsay to shoot a few of those fuckers.

He survives a whole volley of arrows aimed at him several minutes later with nary a scratch. 

[Future Null Infinity]

6 minutes ago, Darksky said:

No way would he have retrieved and left Rickon there to be trampled. If he had dismounted, then grabbed Rickon and tried to get him on the horse, he'd have been leaving himself open for arrows. That would have taken a few minutes at least. Plenty of time for Ramsay to shoot a few of those fuckers.

Yes, you are right, and at this moment, his plot armor powered on, after that, he can stand a nuclear bomb and get out from it without a scratch

[Darksky]

He was in movement then.

Getting Rickon on that horse would find him as a sitting duck. The horse would have been shot first so that he wouldn't be able to retreat quickly.

[holding]

7 minutes ago, Darksky said:

No way would he have retrieved and left Rickon there to be trampled. If he had dismounted, then grabbed Rickon and tried to get him on the horse, he'd have been leaving himself open for arrows. That would have taken a few minutes at least. Plenty of time for Ramsay to shoot a few of those fuckers.

If he wanted to risk his life for Rickon's body - he would have had a better chance of survival picking it up and then riding back to his army. As it is, he spent more than a few minutes running towards them with more chance of being hit by an arrow. But more to the point, I would argue that he shouldn't have been sacrificing himself and his men to rescue Rickon's body. Again, a good commander doesn't let emotion rule him. And Rickon's body should have been trampled by the Stark army following Jon regardless!

[Future Null Infinity]

3 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

He survives a whole volley of arrows aimed at him several minutes later with nary a scratch.