Discussing Sansa XXV: Who let the dogs out...

[Darksky]

3 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

he didn't fell into ramsay's trap, he is just the type of man who can't only watch, he's a man of action 

yes, it's totally understandable and relatable. It was his family. Anyone would do the same. Well anyone who'd be courageous enough.

[Future Null Infinity]

10 minutes ago, Darksky said:

So she basically used Jon  (her family) and his men as cannon fodder. Good going Sansa.

yes, you get it, and jon is not dead, she plotted, he fought, they won, pragmatic and practical, it doesn't matter when she will show up with the army, men will die, men always die in war, like Stannis said "thousands will die", war is war, the most important thing in the war is the goal

[Future Null Infinity]

6 minutes ago, Risto said:

Arya has always been pragmatic, Jon can be pragmatic too (at least in the books). Sansa went long way from having idealized version of world embedded in her brain to someone who sees things as they are.

We know all the history of the other starks, their emotions and ideals always led to their doom

[OldGimletEye]

13 minutes ago, Darksky said:

So she basically used Jon  (her family) and his men as cannon fodder. Good going Sansa.

I wouldn't go that far with it, at this juncture.

But clearly, her failure to disclose information about the Vale forces the night prior to the battle has little justification.
And the smug looks and the smirking didn't help matters, while she was watching that butchery. It came off as both immature and undignified.
 

[holding]

9 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

he didn't fell into ramsay's trap, he is just the type of man who can't only watch, he's a man of action 

I mean... yeah, that was literally Ramsay's trap. He didn't kill Rickon offscreen and put him on a burning cross - he sent him halfway across the field knowing that Jon would ride towards him, putting Jon and his army midfield (away from the carefully planned trenches) so that they could be surrounded. Ramsay had a specific plan and Jon walked straight into it. It isn't about being a 'man of action', it's about being a commander and not leading his men to certain death because he is over emotional. It might be understandable; it's also unforgivable and I can't understand why anyone would go into battle under his command ever again.

As for Sansa, I assumed that she didn't tell anyone about the Vale forces because a) she didn't know if they were coming and explaining that she had written to them but hadn't heard anything would involve explaining that she had turned them down to begin with, which I'm sure she doesn't want to do - at the time she thought they would have enough Northern forces but obviously in retrospect she realizes that was a mistake. And b ) the writers wanted a surprise ending and they didn't care about leaving loose ends to get them there.

As satisfying as Ramsay's end was, I wish that he had been sentenced to death and beheaded properly. He deserved to die a horrible death, but it isn't worth Sansa's humanity. One of the things I love about book Sansa is that throughout the terrible things that have happened to her, she manages to keep a core of decency - in a lot of ways, I have always seen her as the stronger of the Stark sisters - where Arya allows herself to be consumed by hate and vengeance, Sansa is still Sansa, and the lessons she has taken from Cersei and Littlefinger only convince her that there is a better, kinder way to rule. So I was sad for her in that last scene, while also thinking it was done more for fan service than actually staying true to the character.

[Future Null Infinity]

7 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I wouldn't go that far with it, at this juncture.

But clearly, her failure to disclose information about the Vale forces the night prior to the battle has little justification.
And the smug looks and the smirking didn't help matters, while she was watching that butchery. It came off as both immature and undignified.
 

I didn't see people bat an eyelid when Stannis killed thousands of wildlings or Tyrion killed thousands of Stannis soldiers with wildfire, and now all of sudden some people are thinking about the poor wildlings and the causalities of war, jon and Sansa waged war, people will die no matter what, why aren't you sad about the bolton soldiers slaughtered by the Vale's army?

[OldGimletEye]

7 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I didn't see people bat an eyelid when Stannis killed thousands of wildlings or Tyrion killed thousands of Stannis soldiers with wildfire, and now all of sudden some people are thinking about the poor wildlings and the causalities of war, jon and Sansa waged war, people will die no matter what, why aren't you sad about the bolton soldiers slaughtered by the Vale's army?

The point is I don't mind that a war had to be fought to remove Ramsay. Clearly the bastard needed to go. I'm not slamming Sansa here for wanting to get rid of the son-of-a-bitch.

But, the smirking, was just too much.

And the fact is that it is probably tragic that some Bolton soldiers died. Some of them might have been guys that got told to fight and would have rather been home or something. Though, I am not saying an asshole like Ramsay should be allowed to remain in power. Just like an asshole like Aerys ought not to remain in power.

I don't know what you are trying to do here. But it ain't working.

 

[Darksky]

It's because Stannis, Robb and Tyrion had nameless men killed and ordered nameless men into battle. In this instance, the battle involved fan favourites. Jon, Davos, Tormund and Wun Wun. There's also the fact that if Sansa had just told them, they would have done things differently. People die in battles, but in this case, many deaths were preventable.

[Future Null Infinity]

5 minutes ago, holding said:

I mean... yeah, that was literally Ramsay's trap. He didn't kill Rickon offscreen and put him on a burning cross - he sent him halfway across the field knowing that Jon would ride towards him, putting Jon and his army midfield (away from the carefully planned trenches) so that they could be surrounded. Ramsay had a specific plan and Jon walked straight into it. It isn't about being a 'man of action', it's about being a commander and not leading his men to certain death because he is over emotional. It might be understandable; it's also unforgivable and I can't understand why anyone would go into battle under his command ever again.

It was his brother, he can't just stand there and watch, emotions make you forget all the advices

6 minutes ago, holding said:

As for Sansa, I assumed that she didn't tell anyone about the Vale forces because a) she didn't know if they were coming and explaining that she had written to them but hadn't heard anything would involve explaining that she had turned them down to begin with, which I'm sure she doesn't want to do - at the time she thought they would have enough Northern forces but obviously in retrospect she realizes that was a mistake. And b ) the writers wanted a surprise ending and they didn't care about leaving loose ends to get them there.

b ) is most likely, writers wanted a surprise and a little bit of "girl power" (it's the theme of the episode)

[Davrum]

20 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I wouldn't go that far with it, at this juncture.

But clearly, her failure to disclose information about the Vale forces the night prior to the battle has little justification.
And the smug looks and the smirking didn't help matters, while she was watching that butchery. It came off as both immature and undignified.
 

The smug looks came off as Littlefinger-esque.

[Red Tiger]

1 minute ago, Davrum said:

The smug looks came off as Littlefinger-esque.

I think that scene where she is on a horse beside Littlefinger was supposed to be sorta symbolic, she is now in many ways "Littlefinger's daughter". The question is, in how many ways.

[Red Tiger]

7 minutes ago, Darksky said:

It's because Stannis, Robb and Tyrion had nameless men killed and ordered nameless men into battle. In this instance, the battle involved fan favourites. Jon, Davos, Tormund and Wun Wun. There's also the fact that if Sansa had just told them, they would have done things differently. People die in battles, but in this case, many deaths were preventable.

Yeah, the hypocrisy of some fans astounds me, I didnt hear anybody give a shit when the wildfire killed who knows how many of Stannis' men.

[Davrum]

21 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

But clearly, her failure to disclose information about the Vale forces the night prior to the battle has little justification.

She judged Jon to be a risky, hot-headed battle commander, and was proven correct. Remember also this is the goober who planned a surprise sneak attack on Karl's gang at Craster's and when the time came he charged in making as much noise as possible. Jon's brave as hell, but far from a tactical genius.

Not delivering the Vale army to such a wasteful incompetent as Jon Snow was shown in no uncertain terms to have been a very smart move on Sansa's part.

 

[Darksky]

The smirks were uncalled for. She wanted to be independent and yet in the end had to rely on a guy, who did a lot of harm to her and her family. And who knows how she will have to repay him. The army came with a price.

If they want 'girl power' for Sansa, it's not working. She failed in all her endeavours. The North rejected her. She proved incompetent. Sending an SOS to a guy who is lusting after her is no feat. She was just lucky he had an army to lend her. She hasn't done much this season but sit/stand, bitch and moan and boss people around.

She had Ramsay killed by his hounds. But that's stooping to his level and no achievement at  all. She didn't capture Ramsay. He was at her mercy thanks to Jon and the others.

[Future Null Infinity]

6 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

But, the smirking, was just too much. 

it was a smirk to Ramsay, if she wanted Jon dead then why didn't she waited until the boltons finish all the wildlings and Jon and then intervene?

[Red Tiger]

3 minutes ago, Darksky said:

The smirks were uncalled for. She wanted to be independent and yet in the end had to rely on a guy, who did a lot of harm to her and her family. And who knows how she will have to repay him. The army came with a price.

If they want 'girl power' for Sansa, it's not working. She failed in all her endeavours. The North rejected her. She proved incompetent. Sending an SOS to a guy who is lusting after her is no feat. She was just lucky he had an army to lend her. She hasn't done much this season but sit/stand, bitch and moan and boss people around.

She had Ramsay killed by his hounds. But that's stooping to his level and no achievement at  all. She didn't capture Ramsay. He was at her mercy thanks to Jon and the others.

I dont understand why people are surprised about them messing up girl power, do the words "Sand Snakes" ring a bell?

[OldGimletEye]

9 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

it was a smirk to Ramsay, if she wanted Jon dead then why didn't she waited until the boltons finish all the wildlings and Jon and then intervene?

Hey, I hate Ramsay as much as the next guy.
I understand why Sansa hates Ramsay. She has every right to.
But, the fact of the matter, is I find her smirking while watching a battle, involving a great loss of life, to be really crappy. War and battle is not a goddamned game. And Sansa's smirk seems to suggest that is what she thinks it is. It suggest she has no comprehension of what she is watching there.
And no this isn't some kind of peace, love, protest the war thingy. So, don't go there.

[Darksky]

I don't mind Sand Snakes because they actually can do things on their own. Sansa is nothing without those around her. Much like Daenerys in fact.

[Future Null Infinity]

5 minutes ago, Darksky said:

If they want 'girl power' for Sansa, it's not working. She failed in all her endeavours. The North rejected her. She proved incompetent. Sending an SOS to a guy who is lusting after her is no feat. She was just lucky he had an army to lend her. She hasn't done much this season but sit/stand, bitch and moan and boss people around.

yes, she was lucky to get an army, and she used it effectively, she didn't tell anyone, she lured Ramsay outside Winterfell by the ragtag army to bite him, a siege will last months, it was a gamble and it worked, and for the wildlings, they are dead in a way or another, if they stayed in CB Ramsay will come to them and slaughter them

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

4 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

yes, she was lucky to get an army, and she used it effectively, she didn't tell anyone, she lured Ramsay outside Winterfell by the ragtag army to bite him, a siege will last months, it was a gamble and it worked, and for the wildlings, they are dead in a way or another, if they stayed in CB Ramsay will come to them and slaughter them

No shit, she didn't lure Ramsay out. Please stop giving Sansa credit she didn't do. She asked for Vale army and that's it. She didn't command any fxxxxx army. She didn't give any strategy at all.