Discussing Sansa XXV: Who let the dogs out...

[Lady Lovisa]

Eughh. So many Sansa haters 

Reg Sansa and KotV. Sure, many are angry at Sansa for keeping the KotV as a secret from Jon. I think many are simply short-sighted and fail to see the risks and implications.

The showrunners confirmed that it's due to trust issues (not just Jon, but people, in general) that Sansa did not reveal the Vale army info and kept the cards to herself. And Sansa has every right to not trust or depend on Littlefinger. Sansa is observant and is very much aware of  how untrustworthy LF is. I mean, come on. We're talking about the man who gave her to the devil, pushed his wife out of the moon door, turned his back on his "allies", i.e. the Lannisters, by helping her, the "kingslayer", escape from King's Landing, and Sansa witnessed all this first hand.

Also, after this episode, I can confirm that Sansa's strength lies in her being a keen observer and knowing others' strengths and weaknesses. 

Quote

"I know what you want." - Sansa to Petyr as in Season 4

She knows that LF wants power, and that could mean wanting power over the North. She knows that LF has his own mind and is willing to do anything to achieve his quest for power, and that could mean ridding Rickon (the last known living heir of Winterfell) if he isn't already dead from the battle and/or asking her hand in marriage to get his seat at Winterfell. Sansa is the only person who knew LF's deep secrets and she calculated the risks based on her observations of him. She knows that he has had no problem betraying his wife and allies and making deals with the devil. That means he would have no problem turning on the Stark army mid-battle to side with the winning army. He would have no problem surrendering her or the remaining siblings to the Lannisters/Tyrells or ridding them if that is going to advance his chances of becoming Warden of the North. So why is it that some fans consider dragging this very unpredictable and sly man into the picture to meddle with the Northern affairs is a good idea? LF was Sansa's last resort and her seeking his help was her feeding herself to the biggest wolf of Westeros. I reckon it's just bad writing pure luck that this very unpredictable man decided to be predictable in this battle andpretended to be Sansa/Jon's saviour to atone his wrongdoings came to the Sansa/Jon's rescue  

But let's just wait for Episode 10 and hear her justify herself. She's got a lot of explaining to do.

[Future Null Infinity]

36 minutes ago, Lady Lovisa said:

Eughh. So many Sansa haters 

They are some people that come to this thread, put some non sense and go and they are doing it repeatedly, they are mad about Sansa stealing all the thunder from their beloved characters this season, it's fanboyism at it's finest

[Lady Lovisa]

7 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

They are some people that come to this thread, put some non sense and go and they are doing it repeatedly, they are mad about Sansa stealing all the thunder for their beloved characters this season, it's fanboyism at it's finest

Yeah, and thank God for the Sansa + hounds scene. At least that shut majority of the viewers up. I've been consistently rolling my eyes every time I see comments like "Wow finally Sansa is becoming a badass!" or "Wow Sansa is so much better now." Such simple thinking...

[Anythingatall]

I liked Sansa more in the show this season than I ever have in the books.  

Not sure how I felt about the dog scene as I hate that trope.   

 

[Future Null Infinity]

The answer to the question why Sansa didn’t tell Jon, was answered by Sansa. “No one came save me. No one can save anyone”.

Not to mention she told Jon to wait until they had more men but instead of asking Sansa from where–he still didn’t head or respect her advice and ask her for input. He just said we can’t get more men. She’s sick of people not taking her seriously and she’s willing to show them instead of tell them.

Sansa not telling anyone was a statement.

[Maid So Fair]

1 hour ago, Lady Lovisa said:

Eughh. So many Sansa haters 

Reg Sansa and KotV. Sure, many are angry at Sansa for keeping the KotV as a secret from Jon. I think many are simply short-sighted and fail to see the risks and implications.

The showrunners confirmed that it's due to trust issues (not just Jon, but people, in general) that Sansa did not reveal the Vale army info and kept the cards to herself. And Sansa has every right to not trust or depend on Littlefinger. Sansa is observant and is very much aware of  how untrustworthy LF is. I mean, come on. We're talking about the man who gave her to the devil, pushed his wife out of the moon door, turned his back on his "allies", i.e. the Lannisters, by helping her, the "kingslayer", escape from King's Landing, and Sansa witnessed all this first hand.

Also, after this episode, I can confirm that Sansa's strength lies in her being a keen observer and knowing others' strengths and weaknesses. 

She knows that LF wants power, and that could mean wanting power over the North. She knows that LF has his own mind and is willing to do anything to achieve his quest for power, and that could mean ridding Rickon (the last known living heir of Winterfell) if he isn't already dead from the battle and/or asking her hand in marriage to get his seat at Winterfell. Sansa is the only person who knew LF's deep secrets and she calculated the risks based on her observations of him. She knows that he has had no problem betraying his wife and allies and making deals with the devil. That means he would have no problem turning on the Stark army mid-battle to side with the winning army. He would have no problem surrendering her or the remaining siblings to the Lannisters/Tyrells or ridding them if that is going to advance his chances of becoming Warden of the North. So why is it that some fans consider dragging this very unpredictable and sly man into the picture to meddle with the Northern affairs is a good idea? LF was Sansa's last resort and her seeking his help was her feeding herself to the biggest wolf of Westeros. I reckon it's just bad writing pure luck that this very unpredictable man decided to be predictable in this battle andpretended to be Sansa/Jon's saviour to atone his wrongdoings came to the Sansa/Jon's rescue  

But let's just wait for Episode 10 and hear her justify herself. She's got a lot of explaining to do.

No shit. Then why the hell is she doing exactly that? It took one snidenremark from him to sow distrust between her and her allies. She had absolutely no trust issues with Jon before LF showed up.

She, more than anybody, should know what kind of a man he is, how he operates and how dangerous he is to keep around. Yet, for some unfathomable reason she buys his BS excuse about not having known that Ramsay is a monster, once again trusting the very man who sold her to him and put her in this situation. Not having Brienne take off his head (with Ice heh) is her strike one. But it gets worse - not only does she let him go for absolutely no reason but she raves at him and insults him on the way out - and then still expects him to come when she calls. Was she not worried he would turn on her then? If he's so dangerous and unpredictable how is this a smart move?

And how is keeping this danger from Jon and her allies in any way justifiable? If there are risks and implications, surely they have the right to know this and plan accordingly! 

Seriously the only way she could even start redeeming herself is by giving LF the Ramsay treatment in the next episode, but we all know that's not going to happen.

[Sword of the Morning]

Gunman holds hostage in room full of innocent people. You are sniper. You know gunman very well. You know 100% he will kill hostage and likely everyone in room. The only way kill the gunman is to kill hostage.  What do you do?  Obvious answer kill hostage. That is no brainer answer. Real life example: how they ultimately stopped Pulse nightclub shooter.  Read up on it  

Sansa knows Ramsay. She's lived with him, been raped by him, watched him torture and kill blah blah blah. She knows 100% Rickon is dead and there is no saving  him. 100%. Because of everything she had been through she's already made peace with that fact. Her little brother is dead. The only thing left is to re-take Winterfell, unite the North, and avenge Rickon by feeding Ramsay to dogs. And avoid being killed because obviously Ramsay certainly won't stop until he's tortured every single person opposing him. THAT is whole point of exercise, not to save Rickon which is not possible. 

Unfortunately Jon isn't capable of that and Sansa knows it. Come on it is so fucking obvious any idiot knows Ramsay is going to kill Rickon to draw Jon out. Sansa saw that a mile away and tried to warn Jon in a roundabout way without coming out and saying it. She failed and then basically came out and spelled it out and  Jon still didn't get it. He thinks because he smashed a White Walker that he has faced worse than Ramsey when in reality Ramsay is FAAAR worse than the Night King. 

This is what I do if I'm Sansa. Don't worry about saving Rickon if you do that you lose because you are playing Ramsay's game and that's the trap. PRETEND that's what you want to do because that will draw Ramsay OUT of Winterfell. You know him you know if he thinks he has advantage he won't be able to resist.  For love of God keep Jon in dark because that guy is as dumb and honorable as Ned Stark. 

Send the crow to Littlefinger and promise him anything.  Warden of North, wild sex all night, whatever. Manipulate his lusts because Littlefinger's ONLY blind spot is Sansa and she knows it. 

Can't let Jon know because if he does he'll do something to tip off Ramsay and then Ramsay holes up in Winterfell and all the Knights of the Vale together wouldn't be able to dig them out. Besides you only draw out Ramsay by letting Rickon die and Jon would never go for that anyway. 

 

Soooo .... Battle starts and Ramsay kills Rickon as predicted.  A GOOD commander who isn't an idiot does nothing and divorces emotion from it. You know for a fact that if you charge everyone dies and watching your little brother murdered in front of you doesnt change that. Stick to your original plan and avenge your brother by WINNING and bringing Ramsay to justice. You should have known going in that saving Rickon was a long shot anyway. Sansa would have held but Jon simply could not because at this stage of their character development she is simply better at playing the Game of Thrones than him.  He charges.  If you're Sansa you expect that. So Jon and company rush in and Ramsay springs the trap.  That okay for two reasons. The first is you get to kill ALOT of wildlings. White walker or no White walker their presence in the North is a little ...awkward. This little battle decimates their numbers tremendously which makes them easier to deal with later. Second, Ramsay thinks he is in control and has the upper hand in numbers.  So you watch as he carelessly kills his own men with barrages of arrow fire just like the sadistic bastard he is. From his point of view he has superior numbers so can afford to trade down soldiers. He finally tips his hand and commits all his forces including the long pikes and shield walls. Why shouldn't he?  As far as he knows victory is at hand. When he does that and his forces are the most exposed and vulnerable you release the Knights of the Vale and easily smash his unprepared army. 

Rickon was Ramsay's bait to draw Jon and his forces in but Jon and his army was actually Sansa's bait to draw Ramsay out.  

Does this mean sacrificing Rickon? Of course but she knows he is already dead. Does it mean sacrificing Jon and his army?  Well unfortunately yes but you can't realistically best Ramsay any other way and there was no way to convince Jon of another alternative plan anyway. Remember Jon wants to save Rickon and any plan with that as a goal is doomed to failure. You have to basically hope Jon can survive until Ramsay commits and you can finally strike. 

After, you can always betray Littlefinger but at the end of the day you have the upper hand there because you KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt he wants in your panties. 

Is all of this very cold blooded and even Cersei like?   Of course. But that is what Sansa has learned over the course of her character arc. Life isn't a song and you have to deal with what the world gives you, not act on what you WISH the world gave you. She knew from the very beginning that in order to win you had to sacrifice Rickon and most of the wildlings and maybe even Jon to bait the trap. So she made the hard choices to do just that. It HAD to be real because an old sly hunter like Ramsay would never be fooled by anything less.  

Those of you saying Sansa should have told Jon about the extra men even if it was only a hope so he could come up with a better plan is missing the sad point that no better plan actually exists.  Ramsay gets wind of the extra forces, withdraws into Winterfell, and then tortures Rickon to break Jon's mind.  The Knights of the vale are useless in a siege and a prolonged siege serves Ramsay's interests because it gives him time and opportunity to eventually make an under the table deal with Littlefinger, the least trusty man in Westeros. Sansa used the Knights the ONLY way they could realistically have been used to win ... She beat Ramsay at his own game because she knew his weaknesses and trapped the ultimate trapper. Did she want Rickon and Jon to die?  Of course not but she was PRAGMATIC enough to understand that might be what it is going to take to get it done. 

That is an INCREDIBLE character arc when you consider who she was back in season 1. Now you may not like what she is but a strong case can be made that she is by far the better commander and the better leader over Jon because she was willing to do the hardest thing to save everyone that could be saved. Jon Snow could never in a thousand years have defeated Ramsay Bolton.  In this situation you needed a monster to slay the monster and Jon did not have enough monster in him ultimately to do so. Luckily thanks in large part to Ramsay himself Sansa had enough monster to go through with it. The end scene where she was cold and hard enough to watch a man be mauled and eaten alive even if it was a fitting and just death reflect the fact that ultimately Ramsay was right about how a part of him would always be inside her. 

[Chib]

53 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

The answer to the question why Sansa didn’t tell Jon, was answered by Sansa. “No one came save me. No one can save anyone”.

Not to mention she told Jon to wait until they had more men but instead of asking Sansa from where–he still didn’t head or respect her advice and ask her for input. He just said we can’t get more men. She’s sick of people not taking her seriously and she’s willing to show them instead of tell them.

Sansa not telling anyone was a statement.

Her statement that they will die and she will not care. This is NOT a fun project. This is life and DEATH. She does not tell Jon means that she does not trust him. Simple as that. The issue is she wants her brother and the wildlings FIGHT FOR HER despise the fact that she detest them including her brother because he is a bastard. Now it's selfish and stupidity at its best. How can you expect people to do this and that for you when you treat them like SHIT. She is not a warrior who can go out to battle on herself. Who will respect her? For her strategical mind? Has she proved them that she is worthy of their trust with some valuable information? The wildings risk their lives because of Jon, because she is his sister. And yet she does not seem to value that much. There is not many people in this world who is willing to fight for her unconditionally. Only Jon (and Sandor? But he is not her family and technically another creepy uncle). That's it and she shows some kind of distrust towards Jon.

And as a female fan, I am FED UP WITH THIS KIND OF SEXIST WRITING ABOUT FEMALE CHARACTERS. Feminisim is not about going around screaming that "I am badass, I am cool without men". Feminism is about acknowledging the burdens on both genders and close the gap. The potrayal of Sansa this season is full of distrust, dishonest and WHINING. As a female fan, I see her as the most annoying lady of all show. 

[sharding85]

I'm really not a fan of Sansa; this whole series of events has come about due to her betraying Ned (telling Cersi what he had planned) and him dying. 

I think she is a terrible character and it wouldn't bother me if she died next season. 

[Maid So Fair]

17 minutes ago, Sword of the Morning said:

Gunman holds hostage in room full of innocent people. You are sniper. You know gunman very well. You know 100% he will kill hostage and likely everyone in room. The only way kill the gunman is to kill hostage.  What do you do?  Obvious answer kill hostage. That is no brainer answer. Real life example: how they ultimately stopped Pulse nightclub shooter.  Read up on it  

Sansa knows Ramsay. She's lived with him, been raped by him, watched him torture and kill blah blah blah. She knows 100% Rickon is dead and there is no saving  him. 100%. Because of everything she had been through she's already made peace with that fact. Her little brother is dead. The only thing left is to re-take Winterfell, unite the North, and avenge Rickon by feeding Ramsay to dogs. And avoid being killed because obviously Ramsay certainly won't stop until he's tortured every single person opposing him. THAT is whole point of exercise, not to save Rickon which is not possible. 

Unfortunately Jon isn't capable of that and Sansa knows it. Come on it is so fucking obvious any idiot knows Ramsay is going to kill Rickon to draw Jon out. Sansa saw that a mile away and tried to warn Jon in a roundabout way without coming out and saying it. She failed and then basically came out and spelled it out and  Jon still didn't get it. He thinks because he smashed a White Walker that he has faced worse than Ramsey when in reality Ramsay is FAAAR worse than the Night King. 

This is what I do if I'm Sansa. Don't worry about saving Rickon if you do that you lose because you are playing Ramsay's game and that's the trap. PRETEND that's what you want to do because that will draw Ramsay OUT of Winterfell. You know him you know if he thinks he has advantage he won't be able to resist.  For love of God keep Jon in dark because that guy is as dumb and honorable as Ned Stark. 

Send the crow to Littlefinger and promise him anything.  Warden of North, wild sex all night, whatever. Manipulate his lusts because Littlefinger's ONLY blind spot is Sansa and she knows it. 

Can't let Jon know because if he does he'll do something to tip off Ramsay and then Ramsay holes up in Winterfell and all the Knights of the Vale together wouldn't be able to dig them out. Besides you only draw out Ramsay by letting Rickon die and Jon would never go for that anyway. 

 

Soooo .... Battle starts and Ramsay kills Rickon as predicted.  A GOOD commander who isn't an idiot does nothing and divorces emotion from it. You know for a fact that if you charge everyone dies and watching your little brother murdered in front of you doesnt change that. Stick to your original plan and avenge your brother by WINNING and bringing Ramsay to justice. You should have known going in that saving Rickon was a long shot anyway. Sansa would have held but Jon simply could not because at this stage of their character development she is simply better at playing the Game of Thrones than him.  He charges.  If you're Sansa you expect that. So Jon and company rush in and Ramsay springs the trap.  That okay for two reasons. The first is you get to kill ALOT of wildlings. White walker or no White walker their presence in the North is a little ...awkward. This little battle decimates their numbers tremendously which makes them easier to deal with later. Second, Ramsay thinks he is in control and has the upper hand in numbers.  So you watch as he carelessly kills his own men with barrages of arrow fire just like the sadistic bastard he is. From his point of view he has superior numbers so can afford to trade down soldiers. He finally tips his hand and commits all his forces including the long pikes and shield walls. Why shouldn't he?  As far as he knows victory is at hand. When he does that and his forces are the most exposed and vulnerable you release the Knights of the Vale and easily smash his unprepared army. 

Rickon was Ramsay's bait to draw Jon and his forces in but Jon and his army was actually Sansa's bait to draw Ramsay out.  

Does this mean sacrificing Rickon? Of course but she knows he is already dead. Does it mean sacrificing Jon and his army?  Well unfortunately yes but you can't realistically best Ramsay any other way and there was no way to convince Jon of another alternative plan anyway. Remember Jon wants to save Rickon and any plan with that as a goal is doomed to failure. You have to basically hope Jon can survive until Ramsay commits and you can finally strike. 

After, you can always betray Littlefinger but at the end of the day you have the upper hand there because you KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt he wants in your panties. 

Is all of this very cold blooded and even Cersei like?   Of course. But that is what Sansa has learned over the course of her character arc. Life isn't a song and you have to deal with what the world gives you, not act on what you WISH the world gave you. She knew from the very beginning that in order to win you had to sacrifice Rickon and most of the wildlings and maybe even Jon to bait the trap. So she made the hard choices to do just that. It HAD to be real because an old sly hunter like Ramsay would never be fooled by anything less.  

Those of you saying Sansa should have told Jon about the extra men even if it was only a hope so he could come up with a better plan is missing the sad point that no better plan actually exists.  Ramsay gets wind of the extra forces, withdraws into Winterfell, and then tortures Rickon to break Jon's mind.  The Knights of the vale are useless in a siege and a prolonged siege serves Ramsay's interests because it gives him time and opportunity to eventually make an under the table deal with Littlefinger, the least trusty man in Westeros. Sansa used the Knights the ONLY way they could realistically have been used to win ... She beat Ramsay at his own game because she knew his weaknesses and trapped the ultimate trapper. Did she want Rickon and Jon to die?  Of course not but she was PRAGMATIC enough to understand that might be what it is going to take to get it done. 

That is an INCREDIBLE character arc when you consider who she was back in season 1. Now you may not like what she is but a strong case can be made that she is by far the better commander and the better leader over Jon because she was willing to do the hardest thing to save everyone that could be saved. Jon Snow could never in a thousand years have defeated Ramsay Bolton.  In this situation you needed a monster to slay the monster and Jon did not have enough monster in him ultimately to do so. Luckily thanks in large part to Ramsay himself Sansa had enough monster to go through with it. The end scene where she was cold and hard enough to watch a man be mauled and eaten alive even if it was a fitting and just death reflect the fact that ultimately Ramsay was right about how a part of him would always be inside her. 

What makes you so sure Rickon is beyond saving? Yara, who knew nothing about Winterfell, managed to sneak in and would have rescued Theon had he not been completely brainwashed by that point. The Starks who spent the entire lives in that castle and should know it inside and out should be at least ascompetent, especially when you consider that the majority of their forces consist of men who have climbs the Wall - what's some castle wall to them? (In fact, I find it absolutely baffling that the Starks local knowledge pkayed no part in that battle - they could have engaged Ramsay anywhere and it would have made no difference). There's also the geriatric who remember who might also be useful in gaining entry to the castle surreptitiously. Of course all of this could fail but surely it's worth a try?

She tried to warn Jon? Lol. She sprouted some vague nonsense about Ramsays supreme cunning (some concrete examples would be great here, Sandra!) - if she knew exactly what was going to happen why not tell Jon so he could prepare himself? You're giving Sandra entirely too much credit - she's not omniscient- while painting Jon as a complete moron - tip off Ramsay? Really? Should you really be using a guy who you think  can't execute a basic feint as your main general?

Ramsay is a sadistic POS and a different kind of opponent to the NK but worse than him ? At least him and his soldiers stay dead once you kill them. Ramsay would shit his pants if he faced the NK.

And her plan involves sacrificing one, maybe two, of her brothers, killing the only army actually loyal to her and trusting LF to do the right thing because an owner of a brothel sure must be sexually frustrated. Gotcha. This is her best plan? She's practically Napoleon in skirts. No better plan? You know what would be a better plan? Doing exactly the same thing but making sure the Vale forces arrive 10min earlier while her army is still an army and not a handful of dudes fighting for their life. Or accepting LF offer when he proposed to give her the army in exchange for forgiveness alone? Or killing LF and (attempting to) take over the Vale army yourself? Or telling Jon so he can devise a better battle plan, something she explicitly states she has no idea about? Actually telling Jon that Ramsay will use Rickon as bait because time for vague courtesies is past? 

[Future Null Infinity]

6 minutes ago, Chib said:

And as a female fan, I am FED UP WITH THIS KIND OF SEXIST WRITING ABOUT FEMALE CHARACTERS. Feminisim is not about going around screaming that "I am badass, I am cool without men". Feminism is about acknowledging the burdens on both genders and close the gap. The potrayal of Sansa this season is full of distrust, dishonest and WHINING. As a female fan, I see her as the most annoying lady of all show. 

You see her that way because she's a stark and you are expecting her to have the starks' way of thinking, starks' way of life is honor, duty, rush and implusion, I see her as a stark who doesn't have anything in common with the starks' thinking of Ned and his sons (which we know what it did to the starks, people whine too much about how the starks are implusive), her journey in KL and the court gave her another way of thinking, to not think too much about those ideals and to be practical, the key word is practical, in the end, she plotted, he fought, they won, the most important thing is the result

[Chib]

9 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

You see her that way because she's a stark and you are expecting her to have the starks' way of thinking, starks' way of life is honor, duty, rush and implusion, I see her as a stark who doesn't have anything in common with the starks' thinking of Ned and his sons (which we know what it did to the starks, people whine too much about how the starks are implusive), her journey in KL and the court gave her another way of thinking, to not think too much about those ideals and to be practical, the key word is practical, in the end, she plotted, he fought, they won, the most important thing is the result

Eh... you're wrong. I am not a fan of the Stark. If anything I like the cunning and manipulative Margaery Tyrell, give me queen of thrones everyday please!! Sansa becoming manipulative and dark in the book after all what she has suffered makes much more sense than the horrid that is the show. 

The issue with Sansa is that what she is doing has seed from distrusting her own family, and it was after her talk with LF when he reminded her that Jon only relates HALF to her. Yes Jon is not that close to her but who else she has now? Ok she does not trust him wholeheartedly, it is reasonable, but this is not a playground, in battle field, information means DEATH or LIFE. Her brother and all the people who are willing to go for war for the Stark unconditionally might die because they had no information she has. It is not being practical. It is being selfish and distrustful. And in real life it means death. I don't see the Tyrell doing this to their own family. Jon and his wildings live because they have a plot armor. Sansa would be like: "Oi... I thought he wouldn't make it out alive... well ok whatever!" 

I hope Martin will show us some better characterization in the book. The show is SHIT now. I am so fed up with Sansa. 

[TwiceBorn]

After they've turned Sansa into psychopath who enjoys watching a man eaten alive and smiles instead of throwing up like a normal person would I don't have the strength to defend or make sense of the show anymore.

If I were the writer I'd suggest Jon responds to the Ramsey's duel proposal with a single world: "Loose!".

So much for Buckingham.

[Maid So Fair]

27 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

You see her that way because she's a stark and you are expecting her to have the starks' way of thinking, starks' way of life is honor, duty, rush and implusion, I see her as a stark who doesn't have anything in common with the starks' thinking of Ned and his sons (which we know what it did to the starks, people whine too much about how the starks are implusive), her journey in KL and the court gave her another way of thinking, to not think too much about those ideals and to be practical, the key word is practical, in the end, she plotted, he fought, they won, the most important thing is the result

She's been anything bit pragmatic and practical. She rejects LF's offer of an army beat use she's mad at him - an entirely emotional reason for a decision that does not serve her in any way. She goes on and on about how the Northern banner men are more loyal because they wouldn't betray a Stark, right? Wrong. She distrusts Jon not for any logical reason but because LF appealed to her base childhood prejudices and gains nothing by doing so. She bitches about not being respected and no one asking for her opinion while standing at the battle planning table where she's been presumably secretly fuming because her sense of self importance got hurt instead of speaking up like a reasonable adult. She throws an emotional tantrum at Jon about how Ramsay is the worst while failing to offer any solution, pragmatic or otherwise. And of course she ends up putting her trust in a man who sold her to her rapist. Great job, Sandra!

[Mladen]

15 minutes ago, sharding85 said:

I'm really not a fan of Sansa; this whole series of events has come about due to her betraying Ned (telling Cersi what he had planned) and him dying. 

I think she is a terrible character and it wouldn't bother me if she died next season. 

When did that happen? Which episode? 

24 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

She tried to warn Jon? Lol. She sprouted some vague nonsense about Ramsays supreme cunning (some concrete examples would be great here, Sandra!) - if she knew exactly what was going to happen why not tell Jon so he could prepare himself? You're giving Sandra entirely too much credit - she's not omniscient- while painting Jon as a complete moron - tip off Ramsay? Really? Should you really be using a guy who you think  can't execute a basic feint as your main general?

It was so bad advice and such a nonsense that Jon thought it to be obvious and as a result dragged his entire army into slaughter. Have people forgotten that entire tactics was to lure Ramsay to come to them, not the other way around? It was a good advice. Jon should have listened to her. He didn't, and he led his army into a disaster. And again, if not for her, he and all his comrades would be dead.

27 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Ramsay is a sadistic POS and a different kind of opponent to the NK but worse than him ? At least him and his soldiers stay dead once you kill them. Ramsay would shit his pants if he faced the NK.

Yeah, Ramsay is so pathetic. And yet he owned Jon's ass. He played him like a fiddle. Jon looked amateurish in comparison to Ramsay. Yeah, the plot demanded so, but there is no logical way to say that Jon would have won this battle on his own. 

30 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

And her plan involves sacrificing one, maybe two, of her brothers, killing the only army actually loyal to her and trusting LF to do the right thing because an owner of a brothel sure must be sexually frustrated. Gotcha. This is her best plan? She's practically Napoleon in skirts. No better plan? You know what would be a better plan? Doing exactly the same thing but making sure the Vale forces arrive 10min earlier while her army is still an army and not a handful of dudes fighting for their life. Or accepting LF offer when he proposed to give her the army in exchange for forgiveness alone? Or killing LF and (attempting to) take over the Vale army yourself? Or telling Jon so he can devise a better battle plan, something she explicitly states she has no idea about? Actually telling Jon that Ramsay will use Rickon as bait because time for vague courtesies is past? 

No, her plan was to save the brother that she can save and not end up with two dead brothers (Jon's actions were borderline suicidal and even Harington said he failed tremendously). Her plan was promising LF a reward for his service. She doesn't trust LF, they need LF. Haven't you seen the episode? Jon was losing.

Also, Vale armies were there because of LF. Also, have people forgotten that? LF wants Sansa to be indebted to him, not Royce, not Robin. Vale couldn't give a rat's fingers about Sansa. Sansa removed LF from the equation because she knew what kind of strings may come with the army. It is only when Starks are without options, she calls him. Yeah, after that, the plot takes idiotic turn with her not telling Jon, but the fact remains that Vale forces helped Starks because LF manipulated Robin so he could have his leverage over Sansa. 

 

[Chib]

7 minutes ago, Risto said:

No, her plan was to save the brother that she can save and not end up with two dead brothers.

Her plan was just to win back Winterfell at ALL COST. She warned Jon? By whining and giving NONE of actual information? Why no details of what Ramsay has done to torture people? Like: "He fed people to his dog. He cut of Theon's dick..." 

Sansa's advice is the same as: "Be careful, the enemies are cruel."

Bitch please, give use some more useful information!! 

[farm_ecology]

15 hours ago, Warsaw said:

Ravens don't work that way. They're trained to go to castles, not people. LF was in a castle, so Sansa could send him a raven. But she is in the middle of nowhere, so it would be harder, if not impossible, for the answer to come by raven.

Same thing. And they couldn't wait forever.

A rider would be a good answer to the raven problem, but maybe they just didn't have enough time.

Or maybe she rode out to see if they were coming. See above for the raven problem. They don't arrange an hour, this is middle-ages style, no one has cellphones and shit. LF never confirmed. They don't know what happened with Ned (but I think the Hound, who is conveniently travelling North, will fill them in).

LF wasnt in a castle though. If I recall, last time I heard he was outside Moat Calin. This is the show, Raven's are just ye olde text messages.

As for riding out, how would she have any idea where they were or when they might be coming. The idea that she didnt know involves too much hindsight explanation. I think its clear she knew they were coming, and when; the reason she didnt tell Jon will be chalked up to either a) afraid of Jon's reaction (most likely), or she wanted Jon's position weakened (less likely).

[Chib]

1 minute ago, farm_ecology said:

LF wasnt in a castle though. If I recall, last time I heard he was outside Moat Calin. This is the show, Raven's are just ye olde text messages.

As for riding out, how would she have any idea where they were or when they might be coming. The idea that she didnt know involves too much hindsight explanation. I think its clear she knew they were coming, and when; the reason she didnt tell Jon will be chalked up to either a) afraid of Jon's reaction (most likely), or she wanted Jon's position weakened (less likely).

She does not trust Jon, that's why she did not tell him. I think it is so clear. 

The thing is, Jon winning the battle and take back Winterfell would be the BEST outcome for her. If Jon stayed at Castle Black and never went to war, Vale army could still crush Ramsay but for themselves, not "to help the Stark", they would put Sansa in the role of a puppet. They could use her to control the North.

Sansa was LUCKY that Jon and several wildings are still alive. She is still stupid to let them die without the valuable information. 

[Xcorpyo001]

It’s not Sansa that saves the day, it’s LF. He’s the one that brought the Vale troops up north even before she knew she needed them. He then offered them for free as an apology, but Sansa refused because she was pissed with him. Quite an emotional and short-sighted response, almost Stark like. Almost. She then has to beg LF for the same troops she refused the first time. But in the end, it’s LF that decides if he joins the fight or not.

Don’t forget that LF convinced SR and Royce to come to the North with the express goal of saving Sansa and fight the Boltons that dared kidnap her from the Vale. They would have joined the fight either way, without Sansa’s request, that’s why they are there in the first place. I have no clue why Royce(field commander of the Vale forces) didn’t contacted Jon(commander of northern forces) so they could have a joined strategy on how to save Rickon, SW’s other cousin, and heir to WF.

In the end all this talk about Lady Sansa of Winterfell is pointless. Sooner or later, D&D will have to end this  farce of super Sansa being in the North, getting revenge on the Boltons by marrying into their family, etc.

In the books Stannis is going to fight this battle, and a resurrected Jon will finish of the Boltons if Stannis fails. Jon will also have a will from Robb that makes him a true Stark and the next king in the North, Howland Reed to explain the R+L=J, if true, the lords in the GNC and Rickon as a backup, once he will be recovered. Hell, Robb’s child might still be alive with the Blackfish, Bran is also alive, so Sansa has no real chance of becoming the next queen in the north.

So yes, show Sansa will have the support of LF and the Vale, Jon will have few to no troops loyal to him only, show Jon is the worst battle commander in history, although both Ned and Robb are brilliant tacticians and never lost a single battle(Robb even sacrificed some of his troops to lure Tywin into a trap), Sansa is a BAB and a real player, and she is the one that ‘saved the day’, because D&D made Jon a suicidal idiot and gave Sansa the army of the Vale twice, and Jon is still a bastard in the show, but in the end, Jon is going to become the next king in the north.

Sure, Sansa might throw a small temper tantrum, but she and the Vale army can’t do anything about it. No matter how much they change things, in the end D&D have to get to the same points both in the show and in the books. And in the books Jon has everything lined up for him being released from his NW via death, be legitimised via Robb’s will, get the support of the lords of the north that don’t have to be reminded of their oaths like the show ones, etc.

In the books, Sansa and the Vale troops might come to help from the south, but they won’t be the main military force in the north.

[Raksha 2014]

I wish the show writers would make up their minds as to whether Sansa is a cunning observer of human behavior and Game-player or an insecure, abused young woman who can't figure out who to trust and when, or a machiavellian would-be Queen in the North willing to sacrifice at least her half-brother and most of his army (and possibly her younger brother as well) to enthrone herself.  Do they even know?  Will Sansa completely embrace her inner Starkness next episode by killing Littlefinger in Winterfell, or welcome Littlefinger to her bed for the 'reward' she promised him; and if so, will she and LF take Winterfell and leave Jon and the surviving Wildlings out in the cold?

TV-Sansa is, sadly, becoming less recognizable as the character I liked in the books...