Discussing Sansa XXV: Who let the dogs out...

[DarkerStar]

Just now, Blackthorne5 said:

Jon already stated that he would not delay the battle even though she urged him to wait.

She didn't give him a reason to wait. He gave her ample opportunity to though.

[Warsaw]

8 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

So you're saying if the Vale army has decided to come, they wouldn't send her any confirmation? You think LF would play hide and seek without sending any raven back to Sansa about his help? Lolll 

Ravens don't work that way. They're trained to go to castles, not people. LF was in a castle, so Sansa could send him a raven. But she is in the middle of nowhere, so it would be harder, if not impossible, for the answer to come by raven.

7 minutes ago, joaozinm said:

The fact that it was uncertain would be a good reason to delay the battle until you got an answer? I mean, maybe an entiry army was worthy waiting...

Same thing. And they couldn't wait forever.

7 minutes ago, Frejac said:

No, she was supposed to trust her brother, tell him the truth, and then let him send someone in person to either confirm or deny if the Vale would come.

Besides, as I keep saying, there's nothing that would have prevented the Vale from surprise charging Ramsay after the Stark army drew him out.  The battle could have played out in the exact same way it did, except with fewer Stark casualties.

A rider would be a good answer to the raven problem, but maybe they just didn't have enough time.

6 minutes ago, farm_ecology said:

Its very clear Sansa knew they were coming. Hell she rode out to meet them.

You're telling me she couldn't have said "One sec Jon, I've arranged to meet LF in about an hour tonight, who has the army of the Vale with him, can you hang on a sec?"

I think at the end of the day, the reason she didn't tell Jon was for shock value. There is possible a justification in there that she thought Jon would be adverse to enlisting the help (and being in debt) with LF after what happened to Ned. She had hoped the battle would be prolonged long enough for her and the army to arrive before they were slaughtered.

Or maybe she rode out to see if they were coming. See above for the raven problem. They don't arrange an hour, this is middle-ages style, no one has cellphones and shit. LF never confirmed. They don't know what happened with Ned (but I think the Hound, who is conveniently travelling North, will fill them in).

And yes, the shock value thing is very true. It's not like it's the first time bad writing bets in the way of the storyline.

[FastestTurtle]

I felt Sansa not-so-secretly wanted all (or most) of the wildlings (read: Jon's force) and Ramsay force dead before she shows her "knight in shiny armor" hand and take the win.  And I thought Jon was annoyed she didn't even mention the possibility of Vale's force. I certainly would have cursed at the first sight of her leading the Vale's banner if I were him in the battlefield.

[Frejac]

3 minutes ago, Warsaw said:

Ravens don't work that way. They're trained to go to castles, not people. LF was in a castle, so Sansa could send him a raven. But she is in the middle of nowhere, so it would be harder, if not impossible, for the answer to come by raven.

Same thing. And they couldn't wait forever.

A rider would be a good answer to the raven problem, but maybe they just didn't have enough time.

Or maybe she rode out to see if they were coming. See above for the raven problem. They don't arrange an hour, this is middle-ages style, no one has cellphones and shit. LF never confirmed. They don't know what happened with Ned (but I think the Hound, who is conveniently travelling North, will fill them in).

And yes, the shock value thing is very true. It's not like it's the first time bad writing bets in the way of the storyline.

But the point is that they would have had enough time if Sansa had simply told Jon from the beginning.  If not from when she refused the offer at the Wall, she, at the very least, could have told Jon after she'd sent the raven.  At that point they still had time to delay the battle.  Even if she had told him the night before the battle, they still might have had enough time, but we'll never know for sure because she never told him.

If she had told him the night before and they were unsure whether or not Littlefinger would come on time or at all, the show could have actually added some extra tension.  Jon argues with Sansa a bit for keeping the secret, but ultimately realizes that Littlefinger may be their only hope.  He realizes that at this point he's in a position where he's committed to fighting the battle the next day, but in the hope that he can have reinforcements, sends Sansa and a few riders out to find Littlefinger and bring him to the battle.

This would make Sansa arriving with the Vale at the end of the battle an actual hero moment rather than what it was.  It would make Jon's emotional mistake over Rickon's death all the more tragic.  It would have simply been better storytelling.

[Bear Claw]

1 minute ago, FastestTurtle said:

I felt Sansa not-so-secretly wanted all (or most) of the wildlings (read: Jon's force) and Ramsay force dead before she shows her "knight in shiny armor" hand and take the win.  And I thought Jon was annoyed she didn't even mention the possibility of Vale's force. I certainly would have cursed at the first sight of her leading the Vale's banner if I were him in the battlefield.

It is hard to tell what Sansa wants due to the writing. If she were truly against Jon, she shouldn't have warned him the night before. She should  have smiled and told him what great plans he had made. It doesn't make sense, but there is a lot of that happening this season.

[Mladen]

3 minutes ago, FastestTurtle said:

 I certainly would have cursed at the first sight of her leading the Vale's banner if I were him in the battlefield.

Yeah, damn those fools who are saving my life.

I think that many people here operate under 2 rather wrong premises:

1. Sansa had Vale army - No, she didn't. In no way, Vale army can be considered her force. Vale army is LF's army. Calling them means dealing with LF, which Sansa, understandably, wanted to evade. Only when Jon showed lack of patience and decided to attack, she decided it was time to ask LF for a favor promising him a reward. I believe that devil will come for its due in the next episode.

2. Vale army is undeniable game-changer. Vale army, in the form it was presented, was the game-changer. In other ways, it would be difficult for it to be as effective as it was. If Ramsay didn't go outside WF's walls, his army wouldn't be crushed. And he may have never went out if he was facing larger army.

So, whether we like it or not and it seems a lot of people have issue with Jon winning this (more with Sansa helping him win this), the thing is that Sansa's plans came to fruition. Everything she said this episode came to life. And all her pieces of advice should have been listened far more carefully. 

[OldGimletEye]

Look, I'm a huge book!Sansa fan. And I think her book character gets way too much shit from people.

But, show!Sansa not telling Jon about the fact that Vale troops were on their way really isn't excusable. Realistically, his entire battle planning would depend on that fact. Ideally he would want to link up with those Vale forces before engaging Ramsay or he would want to at least coordinate their arrival onto the battlefield.

Also, the idea that show!Sansa, the night before the battle, didn't know whether the Vale forces would join the fray is too largely nonsense.

And concerning show!Sansa's advice that Jon needed more troops: Well, no shit. I think Jon knows that. But what's he gonna do? Did show!Sansa have any suggestions where he could get more? I am sure if she would have proffered some ideas he would have listened. In fact, she did know, but didn't say anything.

I know what D & D were trying to do here. I know we're supposed to see this as show!Sansa's big moment. But, really, they blew it. And she doesn't come off great here. And that is extremely unfortunate. They could have done a better job.

The whole thing was ridiculous.  Like Ramsay wouldn't know about thousands of Vale troops marching towards Winterfell from the Neck? The guy with 20 good men can't seem to find anybody to do a little recon for him? Come on.

[FastestTurtle]

22 minutes ago, Risto said:

Yeah, damn those fools who are saving my life.

You literally fight the shit out for your life and for something bigger.  Someone came in with the biggest intact army in all of Westeros at the last minute to turn the tide.  "Why the fuck couldn't you tell me the night before you could perhaps maybe get additional men a few hours after so we had a better chance?"
 

[Maid So Fair]

1 hour ago, Warsaw said:

Why is no one understanding that she COULDN'T tell him the Vale was coming simply because she didn't know for sure? What was she to do, get Jon all over-confident, trusting in an ally that may not appear at all? Also, they HAD to come at the end of the battle, or else Ramsay would just have fled into Winterfell (with ALL his men) and they would have to siege it, which sucks balls.

The fact se wasn't sure he would show up makes absolutely no difference. She could have easily told Jon that there's this option but it might not come to pass. And if it does not they can still fall back on Jons plan. There's simply no excuse. 

It would also mean that they can look at the situation objectively, which might well include coming up with an alternative that bypasses LF by appealing directly to SR or the Vale lords. She should know that her decision making around LF has always been highly suspect.

Knowing that they will show up doesn't mean they all have to ride to battle together. Jon can still draw Ramsay out by making a show of his lack of strength. In fact, it makes it better because they know that's what they're doing and can take measures to reduce casualties and even make the prize juicier.

[Tianzi]

Sansa was right when she warned Jon about Ramsay setting a trap and playing Jon. Ramsay did set a trap and Jon walked into it, abandoning his decision to wait for the attack.

Sansa was right when she said they are not getting Rickon back. Jon could do nothing to save Rickon.

But the real sin is not mentioning the Vale army. I get her trust issues, I get the uncertainty of this resolution, but she should have told Jon it was a possibility at least. Better chance of making a better plan, better chance of winning, better chance of saving Rickon and lesser chance of Jon (and many others) actually dying overpowered by the Bolton forces.

[Mladen]

7 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Look, I'm a huge book!Sansa fan. And I think her book character gets way too much shit from people.

I am sorry, book!Sansa, show!Sansa, doesn't matter...  We do not discriminate

7 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

But, show!Sansa not telling Jon about the fact that Vale troops were on their way really isn't excusable. Realistically, his entire battle planning would depend on that fact. Ideally he would want to link up with those Vale forces before engaging Ramsay or he would want to at least coordinate their arrival onto the battlefield.

Here is a thing. It is not like Sansa pushed Jon into battle, saying to him "fight tonight, fight tonight" She has been asking, over and over, to wait, to gather more men, to be cautious, to plan things more thoroughly. Even when he got out on the battlefield, entire thing was about who was gonna enrage whom. That is why Sansa's warning was crucial and that is why Jon should have listened to her. As I have said previously, this was Cat and Robb all over again. 

7 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And concerning show!Sansa's advice that Jon needed more troops: Well, no shit. I think Jon knows that. But what's he gonna do? Did show!Sansa have any suggestions where he could get more? I am sure if she would have proffered some ideas he would have listened. In fact, she did know, but didn't say anything.

In episode 6x07, she did mention Cerwyns. 

The problem is that Sansa felt sided once again. She was there, but no one took her seriously. More power and voice had Mel who wasn't part of the war council. I think that initially she didn't want to be indebted to LF, but she then realized they have no choice. Which was logical. But then when she promised LF a reward, the plot itself makes quite the leap in the reasoning why she didn't tell him. People here speak about ambition, betrayal etc. and yet none can be seen on screen. But, at the end of the day, Jon screwed up royally. And not once, but twice. She warned him, she told him about Ramsay and he didn't listen. Again, just like Robb and Cat.

9 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

The whole thing was ridiculous.  Like Ramsay wouldn't know about thousands of Vale troops marching towards Winterfell from the Neck? The guy with 20 good men can't seem to find anybody to do a little recon for him? Come on.

Even R'hllor didn't see Gandalf Littlefinger.

Generally, yeah... It was epic, lovely, emotional, but it had its moments of pure nonsense.

7 minutes ago, FastestTurtle said:

You literally fight the shit out for your life and for something bigger.  Someone came in with the biggest intact army in all of Westeros at the last minute to turn the tide.  "Why the fuck couldn't you tell me the night before you could perhaps maybe get additional men a few hours after so we had a better chance?"
 

Vale army worked because it was deus ex machina. If Jon knew (and by extension Ramsay) the battle wouldn't be battle. It would be siege. And Jon's/Vale's army would go like those poor Uruk-hai at Helm's deep. The Vale army was deus ex machina moment which couldn't have worked any other way. Kind of stupid, but unfortunately that is how it is.

3 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

But the real sin is not mentioning the Vale army. I get her trust issues, I get the uncertainty of this resolution, but she should have told Jon it was a possibility at least. Better chance of making a better plan, better chance of winning, better chance of saving Rickon and lesser chance of Jon (and many others) actually dying overpowered by the Bolton forces.

1. I am not convinced those are trust issues. There are some other issues at hand and I can't wait to see how Sansa plans to reward LF.

2. Vale army wouldn't have provided better chances for Rickon. The kid was dead the moment Ramsay got him. That one is clear.

3. If Vale army was with Jon, out on the open so everyone can see it (Ramsay knew exact number of Jon's army), does anyone think he will be on the open ground? Nope. We would have a siege. 

[Maid So Fair]

1 hour ago, Red Tiger said:

Reminds me of Renly's green eyes. The fandom remembers.

And this mummers farce is almost done. Just one more episode!

@blackthorne5

Yet she failed to use any of her alleged cunning and manipulation skills when meeting LF in Moles Town and was full of naive proclamations about how the North remembers just a few episodes ago. You can't have it both ways.

 

[tugela]

7 hours ago, storm.131 said:

That's just my point.  Whether there is a law or not, RAPE IS RAPE.

They would have considered taking a maid out of wedlock to be rape (but even that was OK under most circumstances, especially if the male had higher social rank than the female). Inside wedlock it would not be rape.

As pointed out earlier, you should not let modern sensibilities cloud your opinion, as things would have been viewed very differently in medieval times.

Using your modern definitions, all highborn marriages of that era would be rape because of how marriage was conducted in those days, which is clearly ridiculous.

[Tianzi]

1 minute ago, Risto said:

1. I am not convinced those are trust issues. There are some other issues at hand and I can't wait to see how Sansa plans to reward LF.

2. Vale army wouldn't have provided better chances for Rickon. The kid was dead the moment Ramsay got him. That one is clear.

3. If Vale army was with Jon, out on the open so everyone can see it (Ramsay knew exact number of Jon's army), does anyone think he will be on the open ground? Nope. We would have a siege. 

They wouldn't have to be with Jon. Jon would present his army as he did, weak and all, and Ramsay would be lured out. the Vale forces could have sneaked from behind, cutting the Bolton forces from Winterfell, or something. Or just joining the battle earlier, before Jon's forces were shattered and he himself almost killed. There would be a lot more Jon could do with the knowledge of those forces that he could without.

And no, this wouldn't give Rickon good chances. But it would give him a slightly better chances.

And with trust issues I'm generous. I prefer to think it was because she was traumatized and irrational than she just risked Jon's life and sacrificed his army for some kind of her own ambitions.

[Ethan_Kanin]

The way the writers killed Ramsay was horrible in my oppinion. Sansa killed Ramsay in a horrible and cruel way and everyone is raving about how empowered she now is. If they really wanted to empower here they would have her judge Ramsay and execute him by sword herself, like a true Stark would have done. There is nothing empowering about being as cruel as the villains are, it's just stooping to their level. 

At least like this everyone is soooooo happy about karma for Ramsay...

[OldGimletEye]

13 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

 I get her trust issues.

See I don't get her trust issues with Jon.
Jon and his wildlings are about to fight Ramsay. They're outnumbered by Ramsay. They have no cavalry. Most likely Jon and his people will die. And Jon is doing that, in part, because of Sansa's request (remember when he really didn't want to fight). And show!Sansa is like, "gee Jon, I am not sure if I can trust you?"
Because why? Because LF said something about Jon being her half-brother? Like seriously?
It makes no sense. Except for D & D doing an asspull here and trying to create melodrama where it really ought not to exist.

[caravaggio]

25 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Look, I'm a huge book!Sansa fan. And I think her book character gets way too much shit from people.

But, show!Sansa not telling Jon about the fact that Vale troops were on their way really isn't excusable. Realistically, his entire battle planning would depend on that fact. Ideally he would want to link up with those Vale forces before engaging Ramsay or he would want to at least coordinate their arrival onto the battlefield.

Also, the idea that show!Sansa, the night before the battle, didn't know whether the Vale forces would join the fray is too largely nonsense.

And concerning show!Sansa's advice that Jon needed more troops: Well, no shit. I think Jon knows that. But what's he gonna do? Did show!Sansa have any suggestions where he could get more? I am sure if she would have proffered some ideas he would have listened. In fact, she did know, but didn't say anything.

I know what D & D were trying to do here. I know we're supposed to see this as show!Sansa's big moment. But, really, they blew it. And she doesn't come off great here. And that is extremely unfortunate. They could have done a better job.

The whole thing was ridiculous.  Like Ramsay wouldn't know about thousands of Vale troops marching towards Winterfell from the Neck? The guy with 20 good men can't seem to find anybody to do a little recon for him? Come on.

This.

[Frejac]

4 minutes ago, Risto said:

3. If Vale army was with Jon, out on the open so everyone can see it (Ramsay knew exact number of Jon's army), does anyone think he will be on the open ground? Nope. We would have a siege. 

As I, and several others, keep pointing out, Jon knowing about the Vale does not mean that Ramsay would know about the Vale.  Jon knowing about the Vale does not mean that he would clump his army together with the Vale and charge the walls of Winterfell.  What Jon knowing about the Vale means is that the two armies can come up with a coordinated strategy.

A strategy that would most likely look exactly like this episode--smaller Stark army draws Ramsay out, Vale crushes Ramsay--except with significantly fewer Stark casualties.

If Ramsay didn't know that Littlefinger was in the North after all this time, there's no reason to believe he would know about them if the armies were to coordinate in this manner.  No reason to believe the Vale still couldn't take him by surprise.

[tormund's beard]

linda made some very good points in her youtube video about ep 9.

[Tianzi]

3 minutes ago, Ethan_Kanin said:

The way the writers killed Ramsay was horrible in my oppinion. Sansa killed Ramsay in a horrible and cruel way and everyone is raving about how empowered she now is. If they really wanted to empower here they would have her judge Ramsay and execute him by sword herself, like a true Stark would have done.

Well, look at it like she did him a favor in his dying hour and acted like a true Lady Bolton.