Woman of War Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 5 hours ago, Risto said: But, LF would demand a reward. The same reward Sansa offered. And we all know what that is. Wasn't it smart for Sansa to wait and see whether North can unite and reclaim WF without risking to be sold like a livestock? When she saw their efforts are futile, she made a decision of her own. Sansa did not want to be sold like a livestock. No woman and no man wants. But here this has cost quite a few lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tugela Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 2 hours ago, storm.131 said: Honestly, whatever the law is, forcing someone to have sex against her will, IS RAPE. Whether it is punishable or condoned by society or not, doesn't change what it is. There was no law in those days, only social convention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonelands Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 10 minutes ago, Rupert Honeybun said: To all of you who think Sansa won - she fucking didn't. What Ramsay said to her was true, he is part of her now. She is a cruel psycho. The goddamn smirk at the end, come on. Who the fuck smiles at anyone's death, even someone who tortured you. Do you think Theon would smile? Wouldn't it be more powerful for Sansa to let her vengeance go and have him executed as a traitor? I know that the writers don't have an ounce of understanding of the characters, and the audience demands blood, but since when did fan-service come before character progression. Perhaps I am wrong though and perhaps Sansa is supposed to become a villain in the show. The episode was visually stunning and well directed, but the writers raped Sansa far worse than Ramsay ever could. Maybe I'm just a cruel psycho (come to think of it, that would explain a few things) but I think her smirk was totally justified after what he did to her and her family. My take on Sansa not telling Jon that there was a possibility of LF and the Knights of the Vale turning up is that if she had, he likely would have waited till they arrived. Ramsay seeing this larger army, would have remained behind the walls and that might have made victory far harder if not impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 35 minutes ago, Ahai Ahoy said: Also I don't think Ramsay was referring to Sansa's preggersness. He was clearly saying that he'd left a mark on her mentally that she'd never be able to remove. So, he also left the mark on Jon? Jon would have disfigured him. Plus he obviously has nothing against Ramsay being killed. So, although Sansa killed him, it is not she is the only one wanting Ramsay dead. 5 minutes ago, Woman of War said: Sansa did not want to be sold like a livestock. No woman and no man wants. But here this has cost quite a few lives. And she was ready to pay that price once she saw there are no more options. Hence why she wrote the letter and Vale forces arrived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hound 25 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 I know I'm probably get crucified on this board for this, but fuck it, I'm going to say it anyway. I think Sansa did the right thing by not telling Jon about The Vale forces. Before you pull out the daggers to slit my throat, hear me out. Let's say she did tell Jon about The Vale, one of two things would've happened. 1. Very unlikely, but Jon would've have accepted the help of Littlefinger and waited. I say it's unlikely because Jon was adamant about not waiting. There's more reasons but I'll cover that in number 2. If Jon accepted, Littlefinger would have sat in on their war council and in all their plans. Now do you really think it's a good idea to have the most cunning and manipulative man in the seven kingdoms sit down in your meetings and know all your secret plans and strategies? I wouldn't even allow that fucker in an AA meeting! 2. Most likely, Jon would have downright refused to allow Littlefinger to help. Because he wouldn't trust Littlefinger and think that he may switch sides in the middle of the battle. You may say that Jon doesn't know about Littlefinger but Davos would, wouldn't he? Stannis would've knew Littlefinger and he would've shared some knowledge about the type of man Littlefinger is with Davos. And most importantly, we all seem to be in agreement that Littlefinger wants Sansa as his wife or at the very least his fuck buddy. Do you think Jon would've allowed that?! Hell no! He would've point blank refused and said he wants nothing to do with The Vale and Littlefinger. So basically, Sansa would have figured that Jon would not want to utilize The Vale armies and would be slaughtered. Every single one of them would've been slaughtered. By doing what she did, she saved some lives atleast. And if you think that including The Vale forces from the beginning would've saved every single life, what the hell is wrong with you? It's war. Men are going to die regardless of how many soldiers you have. Every man stepped out on that battlefield knowing that it might be his last day. Even so, like I said, if she told Jon from the beginning, he would've probably refused and they would have all been dead and Ramsay would be reigning supreme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frejac Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 3 minutes ago, Stonelands said: Maybe I'm just a cruel psycho (come to think of it, that would explain a few things) but I think her smirk was totally justified after what he did to her and her family. My take on Sansa not telling Jon that there was a possibility of LF and the Knights of the Vale turning up is that if she had, he likely would have waited till they arrived. Ramsay seeing this larger army, would have remained behind the walls and that might have made victory far harder if not impossible. But she was asking him to wait for a larger army, so the fact that Jon would have waited for a larger army if she'd told him cannot logically be the reason that she didn't tell him. Besides, Jon waiting to coordinate with the Vale does not mean that he would have done so in a way that lets Ramsay know the Vale was there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tugela Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 2 hours ago, Fiddlefinger said: I am astonished at the level of Sansa hate here, at the very moment when she shows the qualities that everybody criticized her for NOT having. In my opinion, Sansa is NOT "responsible for thousands of deaths" at all, and neither is Jon. Jon did not charge the Bolton force stupidly. He made an attempt to save Rickon and it almost worked. Also, after Rickon was killed, Jon did not try to pick up his body or anything. Davos made the decision that supporting Jon was the right thing for the moment. Another observation: Davos nixed the Stark archers firing into the melee, but Ramsay was fine with killing his own men. As regards Sansa telling Jon about Littlefinger and supposedly giving him an opportunity to make a better plan - it's obvious that Sansa couldn't be sure Littlefinger would even show up. Telling Jon might not even have been a good idea. Again, I do understand why people hate Littlefinger, but this is what I think about him and Sansa: the momentum of the show's endgame - Dany becoming a real power, KKL exploding, etc. - will not let LF be as important as he was. Remember, Cersei is set to blow KL up, Tommen is going to die. The context of LF's scheming is going to be destroyed. LF may just be even with Sansa now, or it may just be that his character is not going to be that important going forward. If you hypothesize that LF is going to demand sex as a reward, LF will undermine Jon, etc. - the show won't have time for all that shit. LF is never so horny for somebody that he throws caution to the winds. Sansa is now Lady Stark of Winterfell. Others have pointed out that LF is not really the Lord of the Vale, but just Sweet Robin's favorite uncle. I would like to see LF reveal something in the crypts, and we already know we're going to be in the crypts (Rickon). As for the famous clip in which LF looks worried - who knows? Maybe he's about to be killed. It could be that Sansa herself has had her most important scene. It's possible that the coming war in the North will involve all the female heroes, Dany, Sansa, Yara. Actually, LF is the Lord Protector of the vale. Until Robert reaches majority, he is in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 22 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said: Who cares if it comes at a cost? She still lied to Jon about it and lead thousands of men to their deaths and for what? Once she's decided to try to get the Vale troops the basic duty of care commanded her to tell Jon about it before charging into a battle with terrible odds. And that's not even getting into the fact that none of this would have been necessary had she not behaved like a moron when meeting LF in Moles Town. She would have cared. Any sane woman would care knowing what LF wants. Not wanting to be sold like a livestock (a la Danaerys in Season 1) is truly a good reason to keep it for herself. At same time, let we not pretend that she didn't tell Jon to wait, that she warned him about Ramsay playing games. The losses Jon's army sustained is on Jon who was idiotic to lead his man in a charge against larger army. The entire thing was game of nerves and Ramsay has beaten Jon. Understandably given Rickon, but Jon fell for that, even with Sansa warning him. He should have never dismissed her knowledge and advice so recklessly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerevanin Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 39 minutes ago, Ahai Ahoy said: Also I don't think Ramsay was referring to Sansa's preggersness. He was clearly saying that he'd left a mark on her mentally that she'd never be able to remove. Yeah, I think that it was more metaphorical than literal. Although Ramsay might have thought that Sansa was pregnant, we can assume that quite some time passed and Sansa's belly didn't grow. And even if she was pregnant, she could have aborted the baby, so if Ramsay was refering to her possible pregnancy, it'd be rather a desperate move by him. But this makes me wonder: We didn't see Sansa aborting any baby but she and Ramsay had sex every nigth when she as in Winterfell. So a lot of chances to become pregnant. Yet she 99% didn't. So she can't have children? Or bad writing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MostlyMoody Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 2 minutes ago, Stonelands said: Maybe I'm just a cruel psycho (come to think of it, that would explain a few things) but I think her smirk was totally justified after what he did to her and her family. My take on Sansa not telling Jon that there was a possibility of LF and the Knights of the Vale turning up is that if she had, he likely would have waited till they arrived. Ramsay seeing this larger army, would have remained behind the walls and that might have made victory far harder if not impossible. A lot of people probably cheered at Ramsay's death, which is bizarre to me personally, but I understand cheering for an evil characters death. What I don't understand is Sansa smiling at murdering someone. I guess the show-runners think that is female empowerment or some bullshit. I don't really care about her not telling Jon about the Vale army. This season had so many retarded blunders and inconsistencies I tend to overlook most of them. What really gets me is how they keep treating the characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 1 minute ago, Nerevanin said: But this makes me wonder: We didn't see Sansa aborting any baby but she and Ramsay had sex every nigth when she as in Winterfell. So a lot of chances to become pregnant. Yet she 99% didn't. So she can't have children? Or bad writing? Or, not every intercourse produces a baby. If that would be the case, there would have been 200 billion people on the planet. Simply, people have taken one line and were beating metaphorical horse with it for the past year. Time to let it go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonelands Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Just now, Frejac said: But she was asking him to wait for a larger army, so the fact that Jon would have waited for a larger army if she'd told him cannot logically be the reason that she didn't tell him. Besides, Jon waiting to coordinate with the Vale does not mean that he would have done so in a way that lets Ramsay know the Vale was there. Did she ask for that this episode? I don't remember that? I remember her saying they needed more men in the episode before but that was before anyone knew if Ramsay was going to be behind or out from the walls regardless. I still think if John knew and had tried to coordinate things by waiting till they were nearby then there would have been more risk of Ramsay knowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frejac Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 I just feel the need to point out again that Jon's not stupid. Everyone who's theorizing that Sansa didn't tell Jon because she feared Jon would somehow give away the game with the Vale to Ramsay needs to remember that everything Jon did and planned was perfectly logical based on the information he had at the time. It wasn't until the Rickon charge that he let emotion take over and did a stupid thing. A stupid thing that led to a lot of people dying. But not a stupid thing that would have messed up any plans with the Vale. By that point those plans would have been set, and they would have been out of Jon's control, regardless of his actions on the battlefield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tugela Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Stannistician said: Really? I can think of 5 reasons off the top of my head: 1. He started a war through his scheming that killed and displaced millions. 2. Betrayed Ned Stark 3. Framed Sansa and Tyrion for killing Joffrey 4. Gave Ros to Joffrey knowing what he would do 5. Pimped Sansa out to Ramsay Why would you want to see LF reveal something in the crypts? That would be stupid. He is not all knowing and all wise (ahem Ramsay). Why does he get to have the knowledge and great moment? The show gave him enough already by allowing him to be the savior of the north (makes me want to puke just writing it). The main war actually was between Stannis, Renly and Jeoffrey, Robb was a side show. It arose because of Ned claiming that Jeoffrey was not a trueborn heir. LF had nothing to do with that. If Ned had kept his mouth shut and just gone back to Winterfell, there would have been no war. People may sympathize with Ned Stark, but the fact is that he was a traitor who tried to usurp the king and started a civil war. That is the grim truth, so he met a traitors end. He had no real proof of his claims, only that in his opinion Roberts children "didn't look right". Jeoffrey was killed by the Tyrells. The framing was done by them, not LF. Sansa was used as a sacrificial lamb by them. Ros was spying on him for Varys. She died for that. If he had not let Joeffrey kill her, he would have had to get someone else do it. Either way, she was going to die. He arranged a marriage for Sansa, he didn't "pimp her out". That is how marriages were done in highborn families. In the big picture, it was the safest option to her, because, unless you have forgotten, she was a fugitive for regicide. Having her married into a relatively powerful family far away from Kings Landing was the only thing keeping her alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 7 minutes ago, Frejac said: I just feel the need to point out again that Jon's not stupid. Everyone who's theorizing that Sansa didn't tell Jon because she feared Jon would somehow give away the game with the Vale to Ramsay needs to remember that everything Jon did and planned was perfectly logical based on the information he had at the time. It wasn't until the Rickon charge that he let emotion take over and did a stupid thing. A stupid thing that led to a lot of people dying. But not a stupid thing that would have messed up any plans with the Vale. By that point those plans would have been set, and they would have been out of Jon's control, regardless of his actions on the battlefield. I agree that Jon wasn't generally stupid, but he undoubtedly did the stupid thing on the battlefield. Especially after he was warned to be affected by Ramsay's provocations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 14 minutes ago, Risto said: Or, not every intercourse produces a baby. If that would be the case, there would have been 200 billion people on the planet. Simply, people have taken one line and were beating metaphorical horse with it for the past year. Time to let it go... How long in-series has it actually been since Sansa escaped with Theon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 Just now, Red Tiger said: How long in-series has it actually been since Sansa escaped with Theon? Month, two, I would guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaSansa Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 I think the obvious reason Sansa didn't tell Jon was that if she did, the show audience would know, and the writers wanted to keep it a surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand11751 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 29 minutes ago, Stonelands said: Maybe I'm just a cruel psycho (come to think of it, that would explain a few things) but I think her smirk was totally justified after what he did to her and her family. My take on Sansa not telling Jon that there was a possibility of LF and the Knights of the Vale turning up is that if she had, he likely would have waited till they arrived. Ramsay seeing this larger army, would have remained behind the walls and that might have made victory far harder if not impossible. This. All of this! Sansa wouldn't have a way of knowing LF would actually respond and bring the Vale knights. As Ramsay observed, a siege of Winterfell wasn't going against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Null Infinity Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Sansa and her luck with the hounds, first Sandor 'the hound' Clegane and now the hounds of Ramsay, what the hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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