Discussing Sansa XXV: Who let the dogs out...

[Drz]

So Sansa has been turned into a full villain now, but will the show still try and show her as a "good" character and not a warmongering, power hungry and revengeance defined monster?

[Pandean]

14 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I'll say it all again one more time:

I don't really understand what you're arguing here The show should be able to tell the story within the episode itself. No viewer should have to go outside any episode to understand what is going on within the episode. If that is the case, then you just told me the show can't tell a cohesive story within the one hour time frame, and to go look somewhere else for answers.

They shouldn't have released the letter? They can release it all they want, but it should have been shown or talked about more directly within the show  so viewers know what is going on, don't get confused, can follow from episode to episode seemlessly. I have no desire to scour around for answers to what should have been addressed in the episode. 

No one is punishing or blaming you for not looking at it. ....It's called being figurative... because no, I was not flogged for not reading the letter. But it does "punish" the viewer who thinks one thing but it was magically explained off-screen.

If every stinkin' line has to mean something then why do we get a scene were Tyrion tells jokes with Missandei and Grey Worm? Good fuckin' question, and there are a few threads that bring up the same question. It certainly didn't add anything to plot progression, so...

That's not how writing works. It just isn't. Not every line has some deep meaning, not every scene is there for a deeper reason, not every gun is a chevok's gun. Sure, those are good things to tighten the writing, but plot holes exist and they always will, filler scenes exist and always will, etc. I can accept that in hastily written daytime drama. NOT for a show with a 10 million per episode budget and very limited screen time when it is trying to tell a detailed fanatsy story that crosses continents. Filler is lazy writing, that is how writing works.

If you have problems with how the show is written then there's really no thing we can argue about. It's not just me. On this thread alone I see usual defenders of this show taking issue with the writing of this episode.

Whoever said GoT is untouchable to critiques?

Well we're on a thread talking about Sansa's character, not the plot holes in the show, so I was confused.

If you want to argue about how D&D write, that's fine. If you want to argue their storyline is sloppy or their characters are badly written, then okay.

This is just a thread discussing Sansa and I've mainly been trying to point out that I don't think she's this evil, manipulative liar who did a bunch of awful things that everyone seems to think.

That's all.

So I really don't know why we're even having this discussion. 

[Forlong the Fat]

1 minute ago, Drz said:

So Sansa has been turned into a full villain now, but will the show still try and show her as a "good" character and not a warmongering, power hungry and revengeance defined monster?

JFC

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

3 hours ago, hallam said:

Who says he is the person in charge?

I think he is going to be discovering that he isn't a Stark very soon. And the show is leading up to a point where all the principle power brokers are women - Danny, Cersei, Yara, why not Sansa as Warden of the North?

I suspect Arya will be running Riverrun fairly soon as well. One Frey (Walder) needs offing.

None of the above.

If Jon isn't a Stark (and R+L=J is true) then he has the rightful claim to the Iron Throne itself. Bran has the rightful claim to Winterfell if he wishes but Sansa is in thrall to Littlefinger, who has the Vale's army -- he could force the issue in his own favor. So long as Edmund is alive his claim to Riverrun would be valid, not that of Hoster Tully's great-grand-niece. Yara lost her claim to the Iron Islands to Euron and she is in exile. Cersei has no claim to anything including Casterly Rock since Jaime has been booted from the Kingsguard.

Danny has dragons, meaning she can take what she wants I suppose. So there's that. More deux ex machina than "power broker" though.

[Darksky]

Why would Sansa automatically conclude Rickon is a lost cause when she and Theon have survived Ramsay?

Also if she had been adamant on getting Rickon back alive, she could have offered herself in exchange for him or something. It might not have worked, they would not have used that plan but she could at least have suggested that.

[Dire_Wolf]

2 minutes ago, Drz said:

So Sansa has been turned into a full villain now, but will the show still try and show her as a "good" character and not a warmongering, power hungry and revengeance defined monster?

Yes, because you wouldn't take revenge if someone raped you, murdered your little brother. I sure would.

I believe Sansa is one of the more interesting characters on the show at the moment. The way her character grew, her storyline evolved, ... She's much more likeable now then she was this naive little girl at the start of the show.

[Mladen]

Just now, Darksky said:

Why would Sansa automatically conclude Rickon is a lost cause when she and Theon have survived Ramsay?

Also if she had been adamant on getting Rickon back alive, she could have offered herself in exchange for him or something. It might not have worked, they would not have used that plan but she could at least have suggested that.

Yeah, I wonder why Jon just didn't give himself too. You are completely right. Jon and Sansa, selfish bastards 

The difference is that Sansa and Theon escaped while Ramsay was out and they weren't in captivity. Rickon was locked in the prison cell.

[MikeMartell]

Sansa did not look pleased that Jon survived.....

[Bear Claw]

Rickon is different from Sansa and Theon because he is the heir to Winterfell. Remember he sent Locke to kill Bran.

[Forlong the Fat]

6 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Why would Sansa automatically conclude Rickon is a lost cause when she and Theon have survived Ramsay?

Also if she had been adamant on getting Rickon back alive, she could have offered herself in exchange for him or something. It might not have worked, they would not have used that plan but she could at least have suggested that.

Why are people making a pretend mystery of this? She said exactly why she thought Rickon was a lost cause. He was the true born male heir. She thought Ramsey wouldn't let him live. And she was right. The only reason he lived as long as he did was because Ramsey was a sicko who liked to play games. But he wasnt so sick as to trade Rickon for a girl. 

[DarkerStar]

5 minutes ago, MikeMartell said:

Sansa did not look pleased that Jon survived.....

It didn't appear that way to me either. And if that's the case I have no problem with Sansa not wanting competition for her seat of power. I just don't want her to flip flop. Just give in to the darkness let it consume you.

[Pandean]

13 minutes ago, Donaldys I Trumpagar said:

 

Danny has dragons. meaning she can take what she wants I suppose. So there's that. More deux ex machina than "power broker" though.

Deux ex dragina, you mean.

[Drz]

16 minutes ago, Dire_Wolf said:

Yes, because you wouldn't take revenge if someone raped you, murdered your little brother. I sure would.

I believe Sansa is one of the more interesting characters on the show at the moment. The way her character grew, her storyline evolved, ... She's much more likeable now then she was this naive little girl at the start of the show.

She couldn't ask Jon to wait 20 minutes for the Vale army to show up and lead thousands of people to their deaths, just so Littlefinger could make her the ruler of Winterfell.

[Future Null Infinity]

I was waiting for Sansa to whistle to the dogs like Ramsay, it would be genius if the writers added that 

[Forlong the Fat]

Just now, Drz said:

She couldn't ask Jon to wait 20 minutes for the Vale army to show up and lead thousands of people to their deaths, just so Littlefinger could make her the ruler of Winterfell.

She knew the Vale army was coming 20 minutes later, or ever, how exactly?

[Dire_Wolf]

Just now, Drz said:

She couldn't ask Jon to wait 20 minutes for the Vale army to show up and lead thousands of people to their deaths, just so Littlefinger could make her the ruler of Winterfell.

The only thing we know for sure is she sent the letter. For all she knew they could've arrived a day late. The battle was going to happen anyway.

Granted, she could've told Jon about the letter but she wouldn't know for sure if they'd show up after turning Littlefinger down a couple of episodes ago.

[Drz]

"The battle was going to happen anyway".

We can't know that if Sansa had told Jon about the upcoming force and Jon would have been up to date about their battle plans.

[gotviewer]

Villainous, ambitious or independent?

Sansa says, "No one can protect me."  She is holding herself accountable for her own safety and making independent decisions based on how they position her.  Sansa's job is to pick her own goal and achieve it.  She said upon meeting Jon at the Wall that she wanted to retake Winterfell.  She did not say it at the time, but it is assumed she needs to kill Ramsey to do it.  (Plus as long as Ramsey is alive she is in danger.)  She has done both.  Jon and many other people helped, but the goal she wanted was achieved, and she is much better positioned now than in the beginning of the season.  (Jon's plan to ride away together may have worked out for Jon but Ramsay would have found her.)

As to Rickon, I would assume that once Sansa thought about it she knew he was not getting out alive absent some guerrilla attack and release from WF dungeon.  Jon should have thought about that too as heirs and titles would be pretty common motivations back then to killing people.  

As to the Vale forces, I don't think Sansa knew they would come.  LF could easily have ignored the request or showed up in support of Ramsey. Trusting LF has gotten many killed.  Sansa hoped they would come and be on her side and they did.  She was lucky.  She did not share that with the group because it starts a whole tangent that may or may not happen. 

I can see the analysis as---Given that Jon will not win on his own because his numbers are smaller and he is too honorable to outgame Ramsay, we will only win if LF comes with the Vale army.   We will also lose if (a)  LF shows up and kills the remainder of our army; (b) LF shows up and joins Ramsay and kills us; (c) LF does some sort of doublecross; (d) LF ignores request.  The only way to win is to promise LF his reward in exchange for help and hope he comes to our aid.  All of the other scenarios are losses.

[Forlong the Fat]

3 minutes ago, gotviewer said:

Villainous, ambitious or independent?

Sansa says, "No one can protect me."  She is holding herself accountable for her own safety and making independent decisions based on how they position her.  Sansa's job is to pick her own goal and achieve it.  She said upon meeting Jon at the Wall that she wanted to retake Winterfell.  She did not say it at the time, but it is assumed she needs to kill Ramsey to do it.  (Plus as long as Ramsey is alive she is in danger.)  She has done both.  Jon and many other people helped, but the goal she wanted was achieved, and she is much better positioned now than in the beginning of the season.  (Jon's plan to ride away together may have worked out for Jon but Ramsay would have found her.)

As to Rickon, I would assume that once Sansa thought about it she knew he was not getting out alive absent some guerrilla attack and release from WF dungeon.  Jon should have thought about that too as heirs and titles would be pretty common motivations back then to killing people.  

As to the Vale forces, I don't think Sansa knew they would come.  LF could easily have ignored the request or showed up in support of Ramsey. Trusting LF has gotten many killed.  Sansa hoped they would come and be on her side and they did.  She was lucky.  She did not share that with the group because it starts a whole tangent that may or may not happen. 

I can see the analysis as---Given that Jon will not win on his own because his numbers are smaller and he is too honorable to outgame Ramsay, we will only win if LF comes with the Vale army.   We will also lose if (a)  LF shows up and kills the remainder of our army; (b) LF shows up and joins Ramsay and kills us; (c) LF does some sort of doublecross; (d) LF ignores request.  The only way to win is to promise LF his reward in exchange for help and hope he comes to our aid.  All of the other scenarios are losses.

I agree with all of this. I would add that I interpret Sansa's deception this season (esp. not sharing info about LF or the Vale) as an indication that she is still, at least to some degree, under LF's sway. He taught her to play the game, primarily by deception. Whether she is simply repeating behaviors she learned from him, or actually still harbors some loyalty to him, it seems that she is not quite through with his game. Where that leads her, Jon, and LF, I do not know. 

[Darksky]

Sansa not being naive and being more morally grey is all well and good, the problem is her working against her allies, her own family.