Discussing Sansa XXV: Who let the dogs out...

[Woman of War]

6 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Soldiers die in a battle. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a lot of them in order to achieve victory. Sansa was absolutely right in this situation.  She told Jon and Davos that they wouldn't be trapping Ramsey that he would be trapping them.  The Vale knights saved the day and secured the victory.  Sucks a lot of soldiers had to die but war is hell.

You sound like Sansa Stoneheart.

[Maid So Fair]

3 minutes ago, Red Tiger said:

No, she didnt, thats why I find all this hate astonishing.

The last we see her is in Jons tent at night and ten she apparently shows up at LF's side, which strongly implies she went to fetch them.

[Red Tiger]

1 minute ago, Woman of War said:

You sound like Sansa Stoneheart.

You know, its very easy to say this when you dont live in a feudalistic society and you havent seen the horrors of war.

[Ahai Ahoy]

Also I don't think Ramsay was referring to Sansa's preggersness. He was clearly saying that he'd left a mark on her mentally that she'd never be able to remove.

[Red Tiger]

Just now, Maid So Fair said:

The last we see her is in Jons tent at night and ten she apparently shows up at LF's side, which strongly implies she went to fetch them.

Yeah, so? That doesnt mean he was automatically going to help.

This is the same fucking guy who told her she would be fine in Winterfell after marrying Ramsay, that Stannis was the best military commadner and that he would probably win, afterwards making her wardeness of the North.

Sansa kinda has a reason to have a "I believe it when I see it" mentality regarding Baelish' help.

[Red Tiger]

1 minute ago, Ahai Ahoy said:

Also I don't think Ramsay was referring to Sansa's preggersness. He was clearly saying that he'd left a mark on her mentally that she'd never be able to remove.

Gawds, I hope so.

[Mladen]

Just now, Maid So Fair said:

The last we see her is in Jons tent at night and ten she apparently shows up at LF's side, which strongly implies she went to fetch them.

Offering a prize to LF if he comes. Once again. that help didn't come without cost. And Sansa had every right to make independent decision about it.

[Future Null Infinity]

Melisandre didn't see the army on the Vale and the letter of Sansa to Baelish in the flames, Man, LF can hide things from anyone even R'hllor himself

[Lord of Nutella]

Im thrilled for Sansas explanation on why she didnt tell. It better not be like those ive read in the first seven or so pages of this thread, because those were all garbage. 

 

Im not hating on Sansa here, i just dont have any idea what the hell shes thinking.

[Woman of War]

19 minutes ago, Red Tiger said:

You know, its very easy to say this when you dont live in a feudalistic society and you havent seen the horrors of war.

Have you seen the horrors of war?

I actually feel a lot of hatred against all those characters who make others fight and die for their claim. The show let Jon argue that taking Winterfell is instrumental n order to have a base to fight the dead who are coming, a universal threat. Ok, this goal may justify a lot of sacrifices, maybe even of those who do not clearly understand about what they are fighting.

But Sansa gives the impression of not even being aware of the horrors form the north. She is totally focused on claim and revenge, having no broader goals in mind. And so she fights with a totally different moral background, Sansa and Jon simply are not in the same fight even if they happen to be in the same battle. Jon fights for mankind while Sansa fights for herself and her name. Big difference morally.

[Darksky]

I love villains when they're portrayed as villains, anti-heroes when they're anti-heroes. Sansa is portrayed as neither and yet she's become a lying, duplicitous, hypocritical, power-hungry individual (Littlefinger 2.0 without his intelligence and charisma). Nothing will come of her shenanigans. She won't be punished by the plot. She was rewarded already (got Ramsay) and will prolly get to outsmart and have CIA killed because she's oh such a powerful woman now.

Viewers hail her as a badass just for being a big talker and writing one letter. They do throw that word around way too casually.

[Maid So Fair]

7 minutes ago, Red Tiger said:

Yeah, so? That doesnt mean he was automatically going to help.

This is the same fucking guy who told her she would be fine in Winterfell after marrying Ramsay, that Stannis was the best military commadner and that he would probably win, afterwards making her wardeness of the North.

Sansa kinda has a reason to have a "I believe it when I see it" mentality regarding Baelish' help.

I no longer believe that she's capable of not falling into yet another trap by LF. If you still have hope for Sansa, then kudos to you but I'm done.

I genuinely don't think it matters. Jon directly asked her if she had a better plan - any plan - and she didn't offer any (after yelling at him for not asking her). If she was going to try this and had any, even the tiniest, hope of succeeding she owed him the very basic courtesy of telling him. She didn't and thousands died needlessly. Her behaviour was selfish and criminally negligent regardless of the outcome.

6 minutes ago, Risto said:

Offering a prize to LF if he comes. Once again. that help didn't come without cost. And Sansa had every right to make independent decision about it.

Who cares if it comes at a cost? She still lied to Jon about it and lead thousands of men to their deaths and for what? Once she's decided to try to get the Vale troops the basic duty of care commanded her to tell Jon about it before charging into a battle with terrible odds.

And that's not even getting into the fact that none of this would have been necessary had she not behaved like a moron when meeting LF in Moles Town.

[Red Tiger]

Just now, Woman of War said:

Have you seen the horrors of war?

Served in the military for a while, so yeah.

1 minute ago, Woman of War said:

I actually feel a lot of hatred against all those characters who make others fight and die for their claim. The show let Jon argue that taking Winterfell is instrumental n order to have a base to fight the dead who are coming, a universal threat. Ok, this goal may justify a lot of sacrifices, maybe even of those who do not clearly understand about what they are fighting.

But Sansa gives the impression of not even being aware of the horrors form the north. She is totally focused on claim and revenge, having no broader goals in mind. And so she fights with a totally different moral background, Sansa and Jon simply are not in the same fight even if they happen to be the same battle. Jon fights for mankind while Sansa fights for herself and her name.

Yeah....I dont really give a shit. Give me the person with bad intentions (though I think the idea that she had bad intentions is bullshit) who ultimately does good things, over the person with good intentions who causes disaster.

[Frejac]

1 minute ago, Woman of War said:

Have you seen the horrors of war?

I actually feel a lot of hatred against all those characters who make others fight and die for their claim. The show let Jon argue that taking Winterfell is instrumental n order to have a base to fight the dead who are coming, a universal threat. Ok, this goal may justify a lot of sacrifices, maybe even of those who do not clearly understand about what they are fighting.

But Sansa gives the impression of not even being aware of the horrors form the north. She is totally focused on claim and revenge, having no broader goals in mind. And so she fights with a totally different moral background, Sansa and Jon simply are not in the same fight even if they happen to be the same battle. Jon fights for mankind while Sansa fights for herself and her name.

This is kind of unrelated to this episode specifically, but I'm a bit annoyed at the show for how much it's downplayed Sansa's reactions to the supernatural things Jon's told her about the war with the White Walkers and his resurrection.  I'm also a bit annoyed that we didn't actually see those conversations on screen.

[Red Tiger]

1 minute ago, Maid So Fair said:

I no longer believe that she's capable of not falling into yet another trap by LF. If you still have hope for Sansa, then kudos to you but I'm done.

I genuinely don't think it matters. Jon directly asked her if she had a better plan - any plan - and she didn't offer any (after yelling at him for not asking her). If she was going to try this and had any, even the tiniest, hope of succeeding she owed him the very basic courtesy of telling him. She didn't and thousands died needlessly. Her behaviour was selfish and criminally negligent regardless of the outcome.

Okay, we're not gonna agree on this.

Still think you're cool though.

 

[MostlyMoody]

To all of you who think Sansa won - she fucking didn't. 

What Ramsay said to her was true, he is part of her now. She is a cruel psycho. The goddamn smirk at the end, come on. Who the fuck smiles at anyone's death, even someone who tortured you. Do you think Theon would smile? 

Wouldn't it be more powerful for Sansa to let her vengeance go and have him executed as a traitor? I know that the writers don't have an ounce of understanding of the characters, and the audience demands blood, but since when did fan-service come before character progression. Perhaps I am wrong though and perhaps Sansa is supposed to become a villain in the show.

The episode was visually stunning and well directed, but the writers raped Sansa far worse than Ramsay ever could.

[Jedi Renee]

7 hours ago, Pandean said:

Before the episode I turned to my friend and said "All my prayers will be answered if Sansa lets loose Ramsey's dogs on him and he dies by them"

 

AND IT HAPPENED

 

I am like basking in the afterglow of that cartharsis right now

 

I really do wish Jon & the Gang would've listened to her to begin with. She ultimately was right about Ramsey. I can kind of see the intelligence behind keeping the Vale soldiers a secret....Jon definitely underestimated Ramsey and so did Davos. They did the best they could, but Sansa did better.

 

I'm a little worried about what the "I'll always be a part of you" line means. I'm hoping it's just a "I'll always be inside your head" and not a SANSA IS PREGGERS!!!!

 

But I have to say, my, how Sansa has grown from S1E1.

Uggh if she told John and davos and Co everything she knew (all info on Ramsay and about the Vale army) they would of saved so many lives that they could of used to fight the ww. 

7 hours ago, Ludo Kressh said:

I don't think she's preggers, I think Ramsey was trying to get in her head one last time....and she wasn't having any of it, her smile at the end of that scene was so damn satisfying.

I hope she is pregnant lol nah that's mean but Fark that scene with Sansa and little finger watching the battle made me soon mad.

6 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

The thing is, did Jon order that or was that all Sansa?

I can see Jon being a little mad

Yep I wud be mad if I was John. I'm not sure keeping Ramsay as a hostage wud be of much value bUT it wud have been good to consider the options etc

6 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

Is this thread only positive?  I think what Sansa did stinks.  Knowing all those men went to their death until her little plan came true just stinks.  If she had told Jon, perhaps they could have waited until LF showed up.  Or stalled.  Or at the very least they could have included the Vale army into their war plans.  And I particularly liked when she got all hissy that Jon wasn't including her in the war plans, and when he did, she had nothing to offer.  She wanted revenge more than anything and was willing to sacrifice others, even JON, who was fighting for her, to get her way.  

Again, if this thread is only YAY Sansa, I apologize and bow out. 

Yes agree totaly 

6 hours ago, Stannistician said:

I agree.  I think she looked bad in the episode.  The revenge on Ramsay at the end was good (I could have done without the evil smile though).  Also, she looked disappointed when she saw Jon running out of the scrum to chase down Ramsay. 

But yeah, Jon and Tormund and everyone else who survived the battle should be absolutely livid with her. 

John better hit her up for this

6 hours ago, DarkerStar said:

Why should they have listened though? We know she had some good information but the people she is trying to convince to listen to her don't. John made a plan based on what he knew. If she had told him about the Valemen beforehand they could have made a new plan that didn't involve killing off most of the Northern forces. Really Sansa has set herself up to be right back under Littlefinger's thumb. She alienated her brother. Lost most of the Northern forces. And has thousands of soldiers loyal to someone else right on her doorstep.

Exactly 

6 hours ago, nothatso said:

Sansa could have told Jon about Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale well before they reached the battlefield. Jon charging in like an idiot does not excuse Sansa for putting them in that position to begin with. She wanted him to wait? Well she had the means to convince him to wait, and she chose not to use those means. She either knowingly endangered Jon and their army or she's more of an idiot than people think.

...or it was just poorly written.

Poorly written or she's dumb!

[Woman of War]

11 minutes ago, Red Tiger said:

Served in the military for a while, so yeah.

Yeah....I dont really give a shit. Give me the person with bad intentions (though I think the idea that she had bad intentions is bullshit) who ultimately does good things, over the person with good intentions who causes disaster.

Well, Sansa may, I said may, walk towards causing disaster while having bad intentions, In both book and show. In the show certainly I will be far more fascinated because she is stronger, older and far more determined. And because she has more reason to be hard inside and out. Though Martin might give her a similar reason in the books.

[Future Null Infinity]

From ep 10 preview, she didn't trust him, he said 'we need to trust each other' and then kiss her on the forehead, exactly like I predicted two weeks ago : he will be angry for not telling him but he will understand her and then they will be like "we cool, bro"

[Darksky]

Sansa is both dumb and ambitious/vengeful, an explosive combination. It'd be good if she let her 'bad' side target her enemies without trampling her allies along the way. She doesn't know friend from foe it seems.