Discussing Sansa XXV: Who let the dogs out...

[Dracarys Stormborn]

2 hours ago, Pandean said:

Whenever I run into people who use "She killed Lady!" or "She's the reason Mycah died!" or "She killed Ned!" as an excuse to hate her even now I just want to either roll my eyes, punch something, or both.

I feel like Sansa could've been a perfect character after that point and people would still forgive her.

And let's not even get into Arya is a fucking sociopath and a slight brat with mental issues who is still viewed as some cute little tomboy

 

A sociopath is someone who literally has no conscience and cares about no one but themselves. Please explain how that defines Arya.

I think it's a bit ironic that you don't like when people make excuses for disliking Sansa for reasons that can be interpreted that way in the books and show, but what you said about Arya is completely untrue however you spin it.

I will never get the whole "Arya is a psychopath" thing some people believe. She is a little girl suffering from severe trauma. She is consumed with anger and sadness. Honestly mentally she's doing better than most adults would in her situation. It's a miracle she hasn't gone full blown insane at this point. And of course she has mental issues. If you went through everything she has, you would too.

I absolutely hate it when people call Arya a sociopath, or a psychopath. She is neither. That's not my opinion, either, the text is evidence. She doesn't fit the definition of either labels. She's definitely going down a dark path, but so far she has retained her humanity, something sociopaths and psychopaths do not have.

Joffery was a sociopath. Littlefinger could be interpreted as one. Ramsay and The Mountain are psychopaths. How is Arya like any of these characters?

And from what I understand, people call Arya badass, not cute.

Also it's hilarious that you call Arya a brat when Sansa was the prime example of that in the beginning.

[Darksky]

Arya may be a ruthless killer but she would never ever step on her own family to achieve her goals/ Sansa is resembling Lannisters, Targaryens, Greyjoys, Boltons more than Starks/Tullys

[Dracarys Stormborn]

2 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Arya may be a ruthless killer but she would never ever step on her own family to achieve her goals/ Sansa is resembling Lannisters, Targaryens, Greyjoys, Boltons more than Starks/Tullys

 

Exactly. At this point the only thing keeping Arya going is her love for her family.

[Lady Glory]

First, I agree Sansa should have told Jon at some point before the battle that she had access to an army of Valemen. However, I can understand why she was reluctant to call on them and tell Jon about them. The Vale army is LF's army (Robin won't listen to anyone over LF, just ask Lord Royce) and LF is a dangerous, manipulative man who she has probably figured out  played her father. Jon is like Ned, and probably would have fallen for LF's tricks too. Understanding that is understanding why she didn't want to tell Jon- she thought she was saving him, like she couldn't save Ned.

 

Also, even if the Vale army was present when the battle began, Ramsay would still have killed Rickon the way he did. The point of killing Rickon that way was to get Jon to abandon any battle plans he had.

 

[Lady Glory]

17 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Arya may be a ruthless killer but she would never ever step on her own family to achieve her goals/ Sansa is resembling Lannisters, Targaryens, Greyjoys, Boltons more than Starks/Tullys

But, like wasn't Robb willing to leave Sansa in King's Landing to die if it meant the North gained independence? I'm pretty sure that's why Catelyn took matters into her own hands and let Jaime go.

[Future Null Infinity]

Zigzag rickon, zigzag 

 

[gotviewer]

3 minutes ago, Darksky said:

4 minutes ago, Lady Glory said:

But, like wasn't Robb willing to leave Sansa in King's Landing to die if it meant the North gained independent? I'm pretty sure that's why Catlyn took matters into her own hands and let Jaime go.

Problem with Honor is its subjective.  I think Robb knew his sisters would pay the price.  It can also be confused with idealism/romanticism.

Regarding Jon rushing in to save Rickon, if he died and all were captured and flayed was his going against the battle plan honorable from the standpoint of duty to his troops?  It was honorable as to risking his life for his brother.  

 

[Florina Laufeyson]

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT PITTING ARYA AND SANSA AGAINST EACH OTHER. 

Anyway, @gotviewer really said how i feel about Sansa's motives. 

Quote

Villainous, ambitious or independent?

Sansa says, "No one can protect me."  She is holding herself accountable for her own safety and making independent decisions based on how they position her.  Sansa's job is to pick her own goal and achieve it.  She said upon meeting Jon at the Wall that she wanted to retake Winterfell.  She did not say it at the time, but it is assumed she needs to kill Ramsey to do it.  (Plus as long as Ramsey is alive she is in danger.)  She has done both.  Jon and many other people helped, but the goal she wanted was achieved, and she is much better positioned now than in the beginning of the season.  (Jon's plan to ride away together may have worked out for Jon but Ramsay would have found her.)

As to Rickon, I would assume that once Sansa thought about it she knew he was not getting out alive absent some guerrilla attack and release from WF dungeon.  Jon should have thought about that too as heirs and titles would be pretty common motivations back then to killing people.  

As to the Vale forces, I don't think Sansa knew they would come.  LF could easily have ignored the request or showed up in support of Ramsey. Trusting LF has gotten many killed.  Sansa hoped they would come and be on her side and they did.  She was lucky.  She did not share that with the group because it starts a whole tangent that may or may not happen. 

I can see the analysis as---Given that Jon will not win on his own because his numbers are smaller and he is too honorable to outgame Ramsay, we will only win if LF comes with the Vale army.   We will also lose if (a)  LF shows up and kills the remainder of our army; (b) LF shows up and joins Ramsay and kills us; (c) LF does some sort of doublecross; (d) LF ignores request.  The only way to win is to promise LF his reward in exchange for help and hope he comes to our aid.  All of the other scenarios are losses.

4

Yes. Sansa has also grown very cynical (thats how i took her "no one can protect me" thing). I do not believe she thought LF would definitely come. Only a maybe. Telling Jon about LF and the Vale would also open up a discussion she isnt ready to face. Why shes involved with him in the first place. What if Jon questions what LF wants from her? How did she gain this kind of thing anyway? This could bring up things like Lysa and stuff. No, shes not being villainous by not telling Jon. I do think she should have at least hinted at it by means of suggestion. "What if i petition the Lord of the Vale? He is my cousin." But there are reasons to keep silent. Just like the above, tangents about what may or may not happen. 

Sansa did not look disappointed that Jon came back alive. Sansa did not WANT Rickon to die so she could have Winterfell. She expected him to die because its Ramsay we're dealing with. And she was right. Sansa was done just sitting around. 

[teej6]

They've made Sansa into a self-centered, conniving, liar who doesn't give a shit whether her kid brother lives or dies. She's the one who initially pushed Jon into fighting Ramsey to retake Winterfell and to save Rickon. Apparently all she cared about was revenge and retaking Winterfell. Rickon was already dead in her mind so what's the point. And no matter what mental gymnastics you do to justify Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale army, it still falls way short of any logical explanation. They show Sansa scolding Jon for not listening to her and dismissing Davos as a battle commander and all the while she's keeping the knowledge of an entire army quite possibly at her disposal a secret. 

[Chiori ki Jorah]

4 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

Zigzig rickon, zigzag 

 

Dude. YES. In the Game of Thrones you zigzag or you die. There is no straight line. *tear*

[Future Null Infinity]

wun wun is like oberyn, he needs a helmet

[Scrambles]

3 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Soldiers die in a battle. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a lot of them in order to achieve victory. Sansa was absolutely right in this situation.  She told Jon and Davos that they wouldn't be trapping Ramsey that he would be trapping them.  The Vale knights saved the day and secured the victory.  Sucks a lot of soldiers had to die but war is hell.

Men die when you think of a plan based on the numbers you think you have, plan that could have been changed had a certain red haired bitch opened her mouth to do something constructive rather than throw a tantrum.

I liked her, I now officially hate Sansa.

[Future Null Infinity]

2 minutes ago, Chiori ki Jorah said:

Dude. YES. In the Game of Thrones you zigzag or you die. There is no straight line. *tear*

Rip rickon, straight line didn't work for him

[Lady Glory]

6 minutes ago, gotviewer said:

 

I agree honor is subjective. And I also believe that Sansa believed that Rickon could be saved when she spoke to Jon about retaking Winterfell but, after taking some time to think about it, realized it wasn't going to happen

Side note: After re-watching the battle I don't think Sansa meant for all those men to die. The plan had been for them to wait for the Bolton army to charge them and I suppose she thought that with the trenches dug they could hold them off until the Vale army came.

[tugela]

4 hours ago, Pandean said:

Before the episode I turned to my friend and said "All my prayers will be answered if Sansa lets loose Ramsey's dogs on him and he dies by them"

 

AND IT HAPPENED

 

I am like basking in the afterglow of that cartharsis right now

 

I really do wish Jon & the Gang would've listened to her to begin with. She ultimately was right about Ramsey. I can kind of see the intelligence behind keeping the Vale soldiers a secret....Jon definitely underestimated Ramsey and so did Davos. They did the best they could, but Sansa did better.

 

I'm a little worried about what the "I'll always be a part of you" line means. I'm hoping it's just a "I'll always be inside your head" and not a SANSA IS PREGGERS!!!!

 

But I have to say, my, how Sansa has grown from S1E1.

Nothing a little moontea can't solve.

[Lord Lannister]

I don't know. I always hate it when the protagonists get a pass on acting every bit as terrible as the villains just because they're doing it to the villains. I guess Sansa basically proved Ramsay right when he said he'd always be a part of her.

[HellasLEAF]

Great title OP.  Brought a longer than expected chuckle.  

[tugela]

1 hour ago, SeventhReign said:

 

A sociopath is someone who literally has no conscience and cares about no one but themselves. Please explain how that defines Arya.

 

Actually, a sociopath is someone who lacks empathy, so they don't identify with the suffering of others. They are capable of being very loyal to their family or a cause. But that is not the same thing as empathy. Arya kills (and wants to kill) and doesn't care about the effect it has on others. That doesn't enter into her thinking at all. That is exactly what a sociopath does.

[Forlong the Fat]

1 minute ago, Lord Lannister said:

I don't know. I always hate it when the protagonists get a pass on acting every bit as terrible as the villains just because they're doing it to the villains. I guess Sansa basically proved Ramsay right when he said he'd always be a part of her.

It's amazing to me that people can read these books and watch this show and make a comment like this. Fighting for the right thing, but also being a bit dishonest and self interested, doesn't make one "every bit as terrible as the villains." It makes one a three dimensional character. 

[storm.131]

4 hours ago, direwoofwoof said:

I was kind of hoping Sansa would chop his head off right there in the yard after Jon made mincemeat of his face... but the show has been so good building up Ramsey's evilness that this karmic ending was necessary. Sansa has turned into a badass.

I was hoping for the same, maybe not chop his head off but drive a spear through his genitals before stabbing him in the head.  But then, that would not have been in keeping with the character so the way it actually happened was better.