Discussing Sansa XXV: Who let the dogs out...

[Future Null Infinity]

I'm really happy, sannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnsa 

[Adam141414]

Sansa has every right not to put Jon in the loop of her plans. Jon is as naive as Robb and Ned. The whole premise of Game of Thrones is its realism - no fairy tale endings. Sansa is the star & her alliance with Little Finger will unite the Vale and Winterfell, and going forward they will propably march south to take her mothers native Riverrun and enact vengeance on the Frey's. 

[DarkerStar]

1 minute ago, lakin1013 said:

When exactly did Sansa provide Jon with a reason to wait?  Other than saying wait, wait, wait, what logical reasons did she offer.  She kept saying we don't have enough men and Jon pointed out that they tried and tried to get more.  WHAT A PERFECT OPPORTUNITY for Sansa to share.  But NOPE...

This. The only real disagreements that she and Jon had this season were about getting more men. She knew exactly where there were more men to be had and never mentioned them. She wants to be  heard and involved in the planning and then keeps the most important piece of information to herself.

[Frejac]

To the people saying Jon is an idiot.

There's a difference between being an idiot and being emotional.

Being emotional can cause you to do idiotic things, but it does not make you an idiot.

[Mladen]

4 minutes ago, DarkerStar said:

I don't think they underestimated him. They were stuck in a bad situation with bad information. They thought they had no more options. Sansa had another option that she could have given them. Allowing them to go into that battle without that knowledge is messed up. Sansa appeared to ride up to the battle with the Vale Lords. She had to know something.

Well, even without Vale, they still had options. There were more Northern houses - Cerwyn, Manderly. Sansa even argued that they should wait for more men and make stronger case with them. Jon wanted to expedite this and he rushed into entire thing. There is even a scene in this episode where she actually tells him to thread carefully.

1 minute ago, Pandean said:

Unfortunately Ethics, Morals, and the Stark code of behavior usually end up with someone dying.

Starks don't have some superior moral code... Ned and Robb were just naive fools.

1 minute ago, tormund's beard said:

he'

he is a fucking idiot, and she is either and idiot or going full darkside for not sharing crucial information with the guy planning the battle.

First, she was ready to sold herself for Winterfell and she hasn't done that for herself but for her family. The guy planning the battle wouldn't listen to her, time after time. Not to mention that said information was the last option. If Jon was more patient and focused on gathering the men, if his army was bigger and he showed some clear lack of proper thinking in this episode.

1 minute ago, lakin1013 said:

When exactly did Sansa provide Jon with a reason to wait?

1. When she told him that they would better be massing their army, calling for Cerwyns.

2. When she told him that he should be more careful with Ramsay. Something he obviously didn't listen.

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Sorry, but 2 is not accurate. Last episode when Brienne was at Riverrun with the Blackfish, what Brienne was asking for was for the BF to help Sansa take Winterfell back. Not for Rickon, not for the Starks, not even for Jon. For Sansa. I knew Rickon would be dead then.

I am sorry, but you are mistaken. The content of the letter clearly indicate otherwise. She is using "us" quite a lot. That suggests it is not about her.

 

[Lothar]

Beautiful seeing Sansa gruesomely kill Ramsay and smile about it.  That may have been the most satisfying thing to happen in the series: book or show.  

Good posts, Pandean.  I was intending to say what I said above and then complain about her lying and getting people killed, but you've made me rethink it.  Maybe she is right not to trust Jon if she told Jon not to fall into Ramsay's trap and he fell into Ramsay's trap anyway.

[The Fattest Leech]

Just now, Risto said:

 

I am sorry, but you are mistaken. The content of the letter clearly indicate otherwise. She is using "us" quite a lot. That suggests it is not about her.

 

Did we see the contents of the letter? Brienne was asking for help to put Sansa back in Winterfell.

[Pandean]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Tv Jon may be an emo fuck, but that is the showrunners fault. Even then, he does have military skills from all the way back growing up with the military men at Winterfell. Something that being a bastard he actually benefited from.

Jon did not "solo charge" at Ramsay. He di dnot let Ramsay get him worked up and angry. Jon rode out to save his little brother who he still had all the love and respect for as Rickon was the heir to Winterfell as well as his kid brother. That is what made Jon ride... to intercept his brother while taking his own life at risk while doing so.

If Sansa had not lied to Jon, and Davos at this point, and told them about the Vale, then they could have, and would have, made other plans knwoing they had massive back up on the the way. Maybe strategically placing the Vale or themselves in the  areas around Winterfell, you know, the lands that Jon knows as if it were his home or something. They could have delayed until the Vale showed up. They could have done many other things different... better. But no, we were treated to the very obvious rush of good guys to save the day at the last minute.

I was sitting there with my husband literally guess the dialogue and events that were coming next and I got 98% of it each and every time. The show is that predictable. I'm done with the shit show.

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Sorry, but 2 is not accurate. Last episode when Brienne was at Riverrun with the Blackfish, what Brienne was asking for was for the BF to help Sansa take Winterfell back. Not for Rickon, not for the Starks, not even for Jon. For Sansa. I knew Rickon would be dead then.

Brienne is sworn to Sansa. Of course she would say to do it for her niece. And if I recall correctly, it was "her family" and everything. They showed some version of the letter and it mentioned Rickon and taking their FAMILY's house back. Whenever Winterfell or Rickon is mentioned it's "our brother" "our home".

 

I think you're digging a little too deep into it, tbh. Brienne said what she said because she is Sansa's sworn shield. 

I don't think there's some nefarious plan on Sansa's part to get Winterfell and a sudden disdain for her family.

[Darksky]

11 minutes ago, Adam141414 said:

The way Sansa gave up on getting Rickon back alive is the pragmatism Jon, Robb and Ned never showed. She has truly learnt from her time with the likes of Ramsay, Littlefinger, the Lannisters about what it takes to win in the game of thrones. No more Stark naivety.

 

And no love for her own family.

Well she did go behind Ned's back wich contributed to his arrest and eventual death after all.

[Adam141414]

Just now, Darksky said:

And no love for her own family.

Well she did go behind Ned's back wich contributed to his arrest and eventual death after all.

She was naive back then. Not anymore

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, DarkerStar said:

This. The only real disagreements that she and Jon had this season were about getting more men. She knew exactly where there were more men to be had and never mentioned them. She wants to be  heard and involved in the planning and then keeps the most important piece of information to herself.

And did Jon listen to her? Because this episode showed that she was rather smart to keep information for herself as Jon "listened" and then did the opposite. This entire episode showed that he should have listened to Sansa more carefully. She did nothing to him that he didn't do to her. Unfortunately for him, she proved to be much smarter in entire situation.

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Did we see the contents of the letter? Brienne was asking for help to put Sansa back in Winterfell.

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/52fc05c9e4b08fc45bd99090/t/575f24f2b09f95492580e91d/1465853176949/?format=1000w

HBO released it.

1 minute ago, Darksky said:

And no love for her own family.

Well she did go behind Ned's back wich contributed to his arrest and eventual death after all.

Show forum. She didn't go to Cersei, remember. Choose the canon and stick to it

 

[Darksky]

I guess that to stop being naive you have to give up on your family and love for them....

[Pandean]

1 minute ago, Lothar said:

Beautiful seeing Sansa gruesomely kill Ramsay and smile about it.  That may have been the most satisfying thing to happen in the series: book or show.  

Good posts, Pandean.  I was intending to say what I said above and then complain about her lying and getting people killed, but you've made me rethink it.  Maybe she is right not to trust Jon if she told Jon not to fall into Ramsay's trap and he fell into Ramsay's trap anyway.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

 

[tormund's beard]

4 minutes ago, Risto said:

Well, even without Vale, they still had options. There were more Northern houses - Cerwyn, Manderly. Sansa even argued that they should wait for more men and make stronger case with them. Jon wanted to expedite this and he rushed into entire thing. There is even a scene in this episode where she actually tells him to thread carefully.

Starks don't have some superior moral code... Ned and Robb were just naive fools.

First, she was ready to sold herself for Winterfell and she hasn't done that for herself but for her family. The guy planning the battle wouldn't listen to her, time after time. Not to mention that said information was the last option. If Jon was more patient and focused on gathering the men, if his army was bigger and he showed some clear lack of proper thinking in this episode.

1. When she told him that they would better be massing their army, calling for Cerwyns.

2. When she told him that he should be more careful with Ramsay. Something he obviously didn't listen.

I am sorry, but you are mistaken. The content of the letter clearly indicate otherwise. She is using "us" quite a lot. That suggests it is not about her.

 

Jon explicitly asks Sansa "Where do you suggest we get more men?" And she says nothing.

if you can't see no wrong with this the you're as blind as the haters.

im 100% willing to accept all this crap with the vale as shitty writing and not sansa's evil agenda.

[lakin1013]

Just now, Lothar said:

Maybe she is right not to trust Jon if she told Jon not to fall into Ramsay's trap and he fell into Ramsay's trap anyway.

You are actually arguing that seeing your younger brother or your youngest child killed before your eyes would not sway you from following the course.  You would leave him or her, dead on the ground, and return back to the line because you might fall into Ramsay's trap.  It is possible that almost no human in that situation would not fall into Ramsay's trap.  

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, tormund's beard said:

Jon explicitly asks Sansa "Where do you suggest we get more men?" And she says nothing.

if you can't see no wrong with this the you're as blind as the haters.

Didn't she mention Cerwyns? Wasn't it established that they were waiting for Manderlys?

[DarkerStar]

Just now, Risto said:

And did Jon listen to her? Because this episode showed that she was rather smart to keep information for herself as Jon "listened" and then did the opposite. This entire episode showed that he should have listened to Sansa more carefully. She did nothing to him that he didn't do to her. Unfortunately for him, she proved to be much smarter in entire situation.

 

But she never told Jon.

[Darksky]

Thank God that in this Stark duo Jon still has a heart (even though it was literally torn apart). If he was a vengeful beast Lady Stoneheart style....

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Brienne is sworn to Sansa. Of course she would say to do it for her niece. And if I recall correctly, it was "her family" and everything. They showed some version of the letter and it mentioned Rickon and taking their FAMILY's house back. Whenever Winterfell or Rickon is mentioned it's "our brother" "our home".

 

I think you're digging a little too deep into it, tbh. Brienne said what she said because she is Sansa's sworn shield. 

I don't think there's some nefarious plan on Sansa's part to get Winterfell and a sudden disdain for her family.

So, are you telling me that in order to know what is going on IN the show, I have to go OUTSIDE of the show to fill in the holes? Shouldn't a viewer only have to watch the program to know what's going on? This makes no sense.

[Mladen]

Just now, Darksky said:

Thank God that in this Stark duo Jon still has a heart (even though it was literally torn apart). If he was a vengeful beast Lady Stoneheart style....

And what was he doing to Ramsay? Patting him on the back? He only stopped because he thought Sansa was the one that should kill him.

1 minute ago, DarkerStar said:

But she never told Jon.

And he never listened to her. In this relationship, Jon thought of her as naive, innocent, stupid girl and Sansa didn't think he could match LF. The thing is, she was right, he wasn't. At least, based on this episode.