DarkerStar Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 1 minute ago, Risto said: OK, and what happened in this episode. He ignored her. He laughed at her. He basically said "yeah, yeah, sis, I know better". He didn't understand the value of her advice. And we all saw what happened. He didn't ignore her though. What she said was of no consequence. The things she said didn't affect what was going to happen in that battle as it stood. She could have said something that would have changed everything though. That's my whole point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 Just now, nothatso said: If Sansa told Jon about the Knights of the Vale before they arrive at Winterfell, then he'd agree to wait at least until Sansa or someone else investigated to see if they were actually coming. Clearly they weren't very far off. Jon was an idiot to charge in alone, but that in no way excuses the fact that Sansa put them in the position to be massacred by a much larger army. If she tells him well ahead of time then they don't field the army that early, Jon never sees Rickon get killed and does his stupid charge, and far fewer people die. They could have coordinated the surprise attack with fewer casualties. They didn't - because of Sansa's decisions. This "he never listened" stuff is utter nonsense. He did listen. She gave him no reason to agree, and by choice. The fact remains that Starks could have waited for Cerwyns and Manderlys. The fact remains that Sansa wanted to neutralize LF's influence knowing that paying debt to him won't come cheap. LF wants her, and she knows what the cost is. So, basically, she did what she had to do. She never said because she wanted the power in her hands, and when she saw they have no more options, she sent LF a letter promising him reward. 1 minute ago, Frejac said: I don't think anyone thinks that Littlefinger would have helped for free. What I think is that had they worked with him from the beginning (or even had Sansa told Jon when she wrote the letter), they could have planned a better strategy, come away with more men, and ultimately been in a stronger position to deal with Littlefinger when the time came to pay up. But, LF would demand a reward. The same reward Sansa offered. And we all know what that is. Wasn't it smart for Sansa to wait and see whether North can unite and reclaim WF without risking to be sold like a livestock? When she saw their efforts are futile, she made a decision of her own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 Just now, DarkerStar said: He didn't ignore her though. What she said was of no consequence. The things she said didn't affect what was going to happen in that battle as it stood. She could have said something that would have changed everything though. That's my whole point. Come on... She warned him that Ramsay will play games and he fell right in Ramsay's trap. He even charged on his own on cavalry. How is that listening a piece of advice to be smart and not allow Ramsay to play him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 5 minutes ago, Risto said: ~snipped~ Do people really believe that LF would have helped Starks for free? That he wants nothing? That the prize Sansa mentioned in her letter wasn't something that we now has to think about? Sansa has every chip in her corner to take down LF. Littlefinger actually needs to be careful of Sansa. Sansa knows LF killed Lysa. Sansa knows LF helped kill Jon Arryn. Sweetrobin loves Sansa. And Sansa could tell the Vale the truth about LF "selling" her to Ramsay because LF's story of Bolton men "stealing" Sansa... while they were in the Vale, is as watertight as a collander and Lord Paramount Royce sees right through LF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkerStar Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 4 minutes ago, Frejac said: I don't think anyone thinks that Littlefinger would have helped for free. What I think is that had they worked with him from the beginning (or even had Sansa told Jon when she wrote the letter), they could have planned a better strategy, come away with more men, and ultimately been in a stronger position to deal with Littlefinger when the time came to pay up. I think this is something that people are largely ignoring. If Sansa wrote that letter to Littlefinger and not someone else in that Vale army such as Bronze Yohn then LF has all the military power in the North right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandean Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 17 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: So, are you telling me that in order to know what is going on IN the show, I have to go OUTSIDE of the show to fill in the holes? Shouldn't a viewer only have to watch the program to know what's going on? This makes no sense. I'm saying sometimes a line is just a line. That there isn't anything to it. And they released a version of the letter. It's your choice whether or not you wanna pay attention to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frejac Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 2 minutes ago, Risto said: The fact remains that Starks could have waited for Cerwyns and Manderlys. The fact remains that Sansa wanted to neutralize LF's influence knowing that paying debt to him won't come cheap. LF wants her, and she knows what the cost is. So, basically, she did what she had to do. She never said because she wanted the power in her hands, and when she saw they have no more options, she sent LF a letter promising him reward. But, LF would demand a reward. The same reward Sansa offered. And we all know what that is. Wasn't it smart for Sansa to wait and see whether North can unite and reclaim WF without risking to be sold like a livestock? When she saw their efforts are futile, she made a decision of her own. I can see this argument. I disagree with it, but I understand. My whole issue, however, is the part where she lies to Jon about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitttenGuard Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 9 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: I think you are correct here. The whole strategy and timing would have been different. With that many more forces, it wouldn't have been just an head-on combat. A delay could have saved Rickon's life as Jon was riding out to save his little brother. I do not think Jon is a stupid man. He was told to watch his emotions and did he did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said: Sansa has every chip in her corner to take down LF. Littlefinger actually needs to be careful of Sansa. Sansa knows LF killed Lysa. Sansa knows LF helped kill Jon Arryn. Sweetrobin loves Sansa. And Sansa could tell the Vale the truth about LF "selling" her to Ramsay because LF's story of Bolton men "stealing" Sansa... while they were in the Vale, is as watertight as a collander and Lord Paramount Royce sees right through LF. In the books perhaps. On the show, Robin listens to Uncle Petyr. LF is one with the army and he power here. She can bring him down, but he can also do a lot of damage before falling. 2 minutes ago, Frejac said: I can see this argument. I disagree with it, but I understand. My whole issue, however, is the part where she lies to Jon about it. Well... Spoiler It seems that in next episode, according to preview, LF is ready to collect his reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannistician Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 1 minute ago, Pandean said: I'm saying sometimes a line is just a line. That there isn't anything to it. And they released a version of the letter. It's your choice whether or not you wanna pay attention to it. Then why put it in the show if it means nothing. Don't get me wrong, I think you are likely correct, but what you are arguing here is that it was just shitty, lazy writing. Is it any wonder the audience is confused? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 1 minute ago, Pandean said: I'm saying sometimes a line is just a line. That there isn't anything to it. And they released a version of the letter. It's your choice whether or not you wanna pay attention to it. No, It's the showrunners choice if they are going to tell the story within the story or try and fill holes later. Is this supposed to be some new novel concept that GoT thrones invented? And in an epic, mature drama like GoT, when screen time is very limited, because there is so much story to tell, every stinkin' little line has to make sense or it is just filler. I never saw that letter and it's a week later. Why should a viewer be "punished" from understanding potential plot drivers because they didn't scour the internet to find the patches to holes? This makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said: I never saw that letter and it's a week later. Why should a viewer be "punished" from understanding potential plot drivers because they didn't scour the internet to find the patches to holes? This makes no sense. Well, TBH, the argument that Sansa called BF to help her retake WF and make her Queen in the North wasn't very logical to begin with. So, the content of the letter brought nothing than we already knew. Same with LF letter. We knew that his help has its price. And we knew that he won't help her out of goodness of his heart. Just because we saw the letter doesn't make those two any truer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nothatso Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 9 minutes ago, Risto said: The fact remains that Starks could have waited for Cerwyns and Manderlys. ...waited for forces they had no indication had any inclination to help them? At least the Vale had offered help. The Cerwyns and Manderlys didn't even pick up the phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 3 minutes ago, Risto said: In the books perhaps. On the show, Robin listens to Uncle Petyr. LF is one with the army and he power here. She can bring him down, but he can also do a lot of damage before falling. Well... Hide contents It seems that in next episode, according to preview, LF is ready to collect his reward. Yes, for sure in the books. She wipes his snot for darn sake Sweetrobin and Sansa had little screen time together, but he still liked her right away and talked about marrying her. Sweetrobin really likes Sansa. And there are the other points I mentioned that help Sansa has every chip in her corner to take down LF. Littlefinger actually needs to be careful of Sansa. Sansa knows LF killed Lysa. Sansa knows LF helped kill Jon Arryn. Sweetrobin loves Sansa. And Sansa could tell the Vale the truth about LF "selling" her to Ramsay because LF's story of Bolton men "stealing" Sansa... while they were in the Vale, is as watertight as a collander and Lord Paramount Royce sees right through LF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 2 minutes ago, Risto said: Well, TBH, the argument that Sansa called BF to help her retake WF and make her Queen in the North wasn't very logical to begin with. So, the content of the letter brought nothing than we already knew. Same with LF letter. We knew that his help has its price. And we knew that he won't help her out of goodness of his heart. Just because we saw the letter doesn't make those two any truer. I have no doubt that Littlefinger wants his mini-Cat. That is for creepily sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 Just now, nothatso said: ...waited for forces they had no indication had any inclination to help them? At least the Vale had offered help. The Cerwyns and Manderlys didn't even pick up the phone. LF offered help, but if people think that help wouldn't have come without strings attached, they are having too much faith in LF's generosity. He wants something. Sansa knows what that is. We can't really blame her for not wanting to be Lf's wife. 1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said: And Sansa could tell the Vale the truth about LF "selling" her to Ramsay because LF's story of Bolton men "stealing" Sansa... while they were in the Vale, is as watertight as a collander and Lord Paramount Royce sees right through LF. Do you actually think that anyone bought that story? They had to buy it because SR was being LF's puppet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Sansa PUSHED Jon to return to Winterfell from her first scene She pushes Jon to get the Wildings behind him She seemingly manipulates Jon (telling him he has to fight, telling him she will do it without him)-someone who trusts her She never told him she was in contact with Littlefinger and an army of the Vale-she knew about them before they left Castle Black She never tells Jon that she has offered herself up to LF to get his backing She knows exactly how many men Jon has-AS THEY MARCH to within sight of WInterfell He tells her he needs to attack a. before winter comes and b. hopefully before Rickon is killed She does not even care about Rickon as evident by her ignoring his body in Winterfell, she wrote him off without a moment's thought. Jon went to battle with what he had and he couldn't get more help given the conditions he faced. And she never gave him a reason to change his plans. And to wait until the literal eve of battle to make it an issue is even worse. They were literally within sight of Winterfell. Sorry, Sansa threw Jon and Rickon to the wolves for ambition. She is now a villain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tormund's beard Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 1 minute ago, Risto said: LF offered help, but if people think that help wouldn't have come without strings attached, they are having too much faith in LF's generosity. He wants something. Sansa knows what that is. We can't really blame her for not wanting to be Lf's wife. Do you actually think that anyone bought that story? They had to buy it because SR was being LF's puppet. she took the help anyway... the battle was going to happen vale army or not, and she kept the info to herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandean Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: No, It's the showrunners choice if they are going to tell the story within the story or try and fill holes later. Is this supposed to be some new novel concept that GoT thrones invented? And in an epic, mature drama like GoT, when screen time is very limited, because there is so much story to tell, every stinkin' little line has to make sense or it is just filler. I never saw that letter and it's a week later. Why should a viewer be "punished" from understanding potential plot drivers because they didn't scour the internet to find the patches to holes? This makes no sense. I don't really understand what you're arguing here They shouldn't have released the letter? No one is punishing or blaming you for not looking at it. If every stinkin' line has to mean something then why do we get a scene were Tyrion tells jokes with Missandei and Grey Worm? That's not how writing works. It just isn't. Not every line has some deep meaning, not every scene is there for a deeper reason, not every gun is a chevok's gun. Sure, those are good things to tighten the writing, but plot holes exist and they always will, filler scenes exist and always will, etc. If you have problems with how the show is written then there's really no thing we can argue about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 3 minutes ago, Risto said: LF offered help, but if people think that help wouldn't have come without strings attached, they are having too much faith in LF's generosity. He wants something. Sansa knows what that is. We can't really blame her for not wanting to be Lf's wife. Do you actually think that anyone bought that story? They had to buy it because SR was being LF's puppet. LF told Sweet Robyn and Royce he was waylaid in the Vale, she show that to be the lie it was. She could tell about how LF pushed Lysa out the moon door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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