Discussing Sansa XXV: Who let the dogs out...

[Mladen]

45 minutes ago, Red Tiger said:

This isnt what people are arguing, it's what he did AFTER he reached Rickon, continuing to charge forward.

And again, marching oN WF with Tormund and Wun-Wun... How he wasn't killed is just wow... just wow...

47 minutes ago, yakisikli123 said:

Sansa wanted only to take her revenge. She was envious of Davos, OH Jon why ask Davos, why not asking my strategy and then her reply Ramsey likes to play games.

It wasn't about revenge. It was about their home. It was about Rickon. She never speaks "I" when it comes to WF, she is always about "our family" Furthermore, she wasn't envious of Davos. She wasn't certain he is the best adviser or someone whom Jon should listen to. Which is not that crazy to question.

49 minutes ago, yakisikli123 said:

And yes he is a good fighter and commander. He should take another route and if you insist she can be queen of betrayers (northeners).

It is rather amazing how many people completely missed the point this season. Time after time, producers, actors etc spoke about the connection Jon and Sansa has, that family tie, the love they feel for each other. More than that, we even know that overall there are no problems between them (heck, we were leaked this entire season). Nowhere does Sansa show even an inkling of wanting to be Queen, nowhere does she show the ruling WF on her own is important for her. It goes to the length where it is simply laughable. Like, we have some people who misinterpreted her watching sadly at how Jon might be walking into yet another trap set by Ramsay as a sign that "she was mispleased he is alive" 

Jon is a good fighter, but as producers said, he got lucky this one. I do think he can be great commander, but this wasn't the finest moment. And yes, he would make a great King. And with Sansa by his side, those two can do wonders.

[SerMixalot]

5 minutes ago, Risto said:

And again, marching oN WF with Tormund and Wun-Wun... How he wasn't killed is just wow... just wow...

It wasn't about revenge. It was about their home. It was about Rickon. She never speaks "I" when it comes to WF, she is always about "our family" Furthermore, she wasn't envious of Davos. She wasn't certain he is the best adviser or someone whom Jon should listen to. Which is not that crazy to question.

It is rather amazing how many people completely missed the point this season. Time after time, producers, actors etc spoke about the connection Jon and Sansa has, that family tie, the love they feel for each other. More than that, we even know that overall there are no problems between them (heck, we were leaked this entire season). Nowhere does Sansa show even an inkling of wanting to be Queen, nowhere does she show the ruling WF on her own is important for her. It goes to the length where it is simply laughable. Like, we have some people who misinterpreted her watching sadly at how Jon might be walking into yet another trap set by Ramsay as a sign that "she was mispleased he is alive" 

Jon is a good fighter, but as producers said, he got lucky this one. I do think he can be great commander, but this wasn't the finest moment. And yes, he would make a great King. And with Sansa by his side, those two can do wonders.

doesn't answer why she never told jon about the vale army during the months of planning for the march on WF

[Darksky]

Are people intentionally forgetting Jon's a true Stark? Like Brandon, Ned, Arya, Lyanna-level Stark.

They are emotional, impulsive, fiercely protective of their wolf pack. They don't give up, they don't forefeit their own. It's the whole wolf's blood in them. Brandon, Lyanna had it, Arya and Jon have it.

Sansa is more Tully, hell more Lannister and Baelish, than a Stark, and she's becoming quite conniving/cold-hearted. Hence it was easy for her to give up on Rickon. Hence she didn't look particularly distressed over his death. She knew Rickon was a dead man walking the moment Jon read it in the letter, and yet she still pulled the 'save our brother' card to bend Jon to her will.

What Jon did before the battle was perfectly in character, book and show wise. There was no other way to do it. There was no way Jon would just sit back and watch his family get killed in front of him. He'd try to get to him even if it's hopeless. He nearly succeeded. Then his wolf's blood took over and he lost it. Although at that point retrieving would have just resulted in him being shot in the back, so the only option was to charge. He was suicidal, he didn't give a shit anymore.

[Mladen]

2 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

doesn't answer why she never told jon about the vale army during the months of planning for the march on WF

I have an idea why she didn't, although I have to say it is a blunder. Not even sure whether it is intentional or unintentional mistake, it just proved to be, plot-wise, nonsensical. As I have said numerous times, I can understand her silence to the point of her letter to LF. Afterwards, I am lost. I don't buy the entire "she wants to be Queen, she is backstabbing traitor" given that TV show didn't give us anything to base that on. 

[Maid So Fair]

4 hours ago, Risto said:

Did Jon ask what trap? She told him the essential. She didn't know Ramsay's plan. She couldn't have said to him "Oh, Ramsay will taunt you with Rickon so please don't ride alone towards his army". But she did tell him Ramsay likes to play games, she did tell him to be careful and not to be played. And he said it was obvious. And what he did at the end? Allow just that. Plain and simple, as "obvious" as her advice was, it seems that it was beyond Jon's abilities.

Whom? Sandra? Is this another Carol/Larry thing? Pushing alone this one? OK...

Jon had a solid plan and he blew it (everyone from production seems to believe so. Harington even says that Jon blew it). He blew it royally. He was advised on what kind of man Ramsay is. The fact that he didn't listen was his mistake and his alone. And his mistake led his men to the trap. Not Sansa's, his.

I don't argue with this. The logic was a shady thing in this episode. Through and through.

And do you recall that the army in question is at the North because of LF? Vale lords have no interest in helping Starks. They didn't move a finger. And they wouldn't move it if LF didn't manipulated SR into taking an action. People see Vale army as some fruit, ripe to be plucked by Sansa. Thing is, Sansa has no claim or influence over Vale lords. The one willing to help is LF. And he is doing so with his own motives. Her relationship with SR is questionable at least (when SR heard about Sansa, it wasn't longing, just disinterest he felt), the closeness with Royce, again, questionable. On the other hand, LF has SR wrapped around his finger and owed Royce. So, yes, she could have bypassed LF, but who knows where that would have taken her and whether that would have given this result. 

No, what we got now is a woman who made her choice. That was why excluding Jon was essential. She wanted to make decision regarding LF on her own. And she did make it. She didn't grovel. She offered him a reward. LF will come to collect the reward, make sure of that and Sansa will also be ready for that. The basics of quid pro quo.

Lyanna Mormont called Sansa Sandra in an earlier episode and since by this point the only thing that the show and book Sansa have in common is phenotype calling her Sandra seems like an easy way to distinguish the two.

You keep bringing up Jon's mistakes as if they in any way absolve Sandra's, which they do not. This isn't a contest for the stupidest Stark.

She's the one who brought it up and went on about how Ramsay likes to play with people. Ther are all plenty of people in this very thread who claim she knew Rickon was toast and would be killed in a gratuitous way. Maybe it would have been helpful to explain that? Be careful and don't get played? Seriously?! How on earth is this good advice in any way? What's next? Make sure you don't make any mistakes? Don't screw up? Try to win if at all possible? She doesn't offer any insight that would actually be useful in any way (e.g. Ramsay is reckless and likely to overcommit if he think he's winning).

No one is suggesting that Jon didn't make a mistake - but at least his was completely understandable from a moral and human perspective. And had he known that there were other options it might not have come to the. They could have chosen to delay the battle and Rickons release. He might have reacted differently. And as some people will tell you, Jon falling into the trap as exactly what drew Ramsay out and made him commit his forces, thus allowing  the Vale troops to sweep in. And none of this excuses Sandra in any way - especially since she was similarly dismissive of his actual original plan.

They were keen to join Robb but prevented by Lysa paranoia. They werr ready to harbour Sansa from the Crown. The actual reason LF gives and they acvep for going North is to help Sansa. Of course they're ready to help otherwise what's he point of eing there?

But It literally doesn't matter why the Vale lords marched North. They're there now. It's not like they're just going to turn back. Sure, it's by no means guaranteed that they would help her.  But you know who's also not guaranteed to help her? LF. He's also as she should be well aware a duplicitous bastard who never does anything that doesn't benefit him personally and literally sold her to the enemies she's about to fight. He's one of the most dangerous men in Westeros, as she well knows, yet she chooses an alliance  with him instead of trying her chances with her literal cousin and men who have been shown to be sympathetic and protective of her? Exactly how would a sensible person conclude these are her best odds? She's lucky LF's army didn't turn up to slaughter all her allies. Especially after she made it clear she gave to shits about him and told him to GTFO.

Yes, she made a choice. In fact, she made a choice three times. She decided that LF was the kind of person who could be trusted not to kidnap her and therefore worthy of s clandestine meeting. Then she chose to reject his army because she was mad, alienating him in the process. Then she changed her mind again. Exactky how long does she need to make up her mind? And once she made a choice, why keep it from Jon? Was she ashamed of her own stupidity? If her reward to LF is his head on a spike on the walls of WF then I'll reconsider. But until then, yes, she did go grovelling back to him after she already y rejected him. 

@OldGimletEye Thank you for saying everything I wanted to much better than I ever could. 

[Maid So Fair]

I just realised that Melisande should be added to the list of people terrible at their jobs for failing to foresee ANY of this. 

[Mladen]

20 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Are people intentionally forgetting Jon's a true Stark? Like Brandon, Ned, Arya, Lyanna-level Stark.

They are emotional, impulsive, fiercely protective of their wolf pack. They don't give up, they don't forefeit their own. It's the whole wolf's blood in them. Brandon, Lyanna had it, Arya and Jon have it.

Not like Ned. Ned never had an impulsive bone in his body. Catelyn, yes. Ned, never.

20 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Sansa is more Tully, hell more Lannister and Baelish, than a Stark, and she's becoming quite conniving/cold-hearted. Hence it was easy for her to give up on Rickon. Hence she didn't look particularly distressed over his death. She knew Rickon was a dead man walking the moment Jon read it in the letter, and yet she still pulled the 'save our brother' card to bend Jon to her will.

LOL... No. If we have Lord Rickard Stark saying "play to win", if we know that Ned was never hot-blooded but actually quite reasonable man, the entire "Stark wild pack" thing is not working. Sansa didn't give up on Rickon, Sansa fought for Jon's survival. She knew Ramsay will use Rickon to play with Jon, she warned him about that. It would be immensely idiotic not to see what kind of game Ramsay would play. Between two dead brothers, destroyed house and her imprisonment on one side and Rickon's life on another, as difficult as that choice is, and clearly as shown by Ms Turner facial expression during that speech, that choice had to be made.

20 minutes ago, Darksky said:

What Jon did before the battle was perfectly in character, book and show wise. There was no other way to do it. There was no way Jon would just sit back and watch his family get killed in front of him. He'd try to get to him even if it's hopeless. He nearly succeeded. Then his wolf's blood took over and he lost it. Although at that point retrieving would have just resulted in him being shot in the back, so the only option was to charge. He was suicidal, he didn't give a shit anymore.

As was said, issue wasn't attempt to save Rickon. Issue was him marching alone on cavalry. Was that "Stark" way of suicide? And he never almost succeeded. Ramsay was missing intentionally to lure Jon more and more into the enemy's ground. So, he was suicidal which led his entire army into a trap? That is the definition of poor command.

14 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Lyanna Mormont called Sansa Sandra in an earlier episode and since by this point the only thing that the show and book Sansa have in common is phenotype calling her Sandra seems like an easy way to distinguish the two.

Even before Lyanna Mormont, there were many differences between two version. We never had problems separating the two

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You keep bringing up Jon's mistakes as if they in any way absolve Sandra's, which they do not. This isn't a contest for the stupidest Stark.

They don't absolve hers, but when people argue that Sansa's mistake killed thousands, we should also be aware that if there wasn't for Jon's suicidal charge, the army would have never been caught in a trap.

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She's the one who brought it up and went on about how Ramsay likes to play with people. Ther are all plenty of people in this very thread who claim she knew Rickon was toast and would be killed in a gratuitous way. Maybe it would have been helpful to explain that? Be careful and don't get played? Seriously?! How on earth is this good advice in any way? What's next? Make sure you don't make any mistakes? Don't screw up? Try to win if at all possible? She doesn't offer any insight that would actually be useful in any way (e.g. Ramsay is reckless and likely to overcommit if he think he's winning).

And in this situation, how it isn't? As Jon said, it was obvious advice. And generally speaking, it kinda was. But as generic as that piece of advice was, the fact that Jon ignored it, shows how actually valuable it had been. Jon should have listened more carefully and not easily disregard what she has to say. 

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No one is suggesting that Jon didn't make a mistake - but at least his was completely understandable from a moral and human perspective. And had he known that there were other options it might not have come to the. They could have chosen to delay the battle and Rickons release. He might have reacted differently. And as some people will tell you, Jon falling into the trap as exactly what drew Ramsay out and made him commit his forces, thus allowing  the Vale troops to sweep in. And none of this excuses Sandra in any way - especially since she was similarly dismissive of his actual original plan.

Ramsay's forces were already out of the walls. Vale army wouldn't stand a chance marching on WF. The siege itself would have never worked. Ramsay's armies were out because Ramsay knew, or at least believed Jon's numbers can't overcome him. Which is why the plan was to play defense. To lure Ramsay into coming to them, by being overconfident. That is where Sansa's advice play in. She knew that Ramsay will play him and lure Jon into his own trap and Jon allowed it. He fell in trap that he was warned about.

15 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

They were keen to join Robb but prevented by Lysa paranoia. They werr ready to harbour Sansa from the Crown. The actual reason LF gives and they acvep for going North is to help Sansa. Of course they're ready to help otherwise what's he point of eing there?

This is all much stronger case in the books. In the TV show, we see lords harboring Sansa, but not being too obsessed with saving her. We see SR who is not as attached to her as he is in the books. Truly and without any doubt, that army was there because of LF and no one else.

17 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

But It literally doesn't matter why the Vale lords marched North. They're there now. It's not like they're just going to turn back. Sure, it's by no means guaranteed that they would help her.  But you know who's also not guaranteed to help her? LF. He's also as she should be well aware a duplicitous bastard who never does anything that doesn't benefit him personally and literally sold her to the enemies she's about to fight. He's one of the most dangerous men in Westeros, as she well knows, yet she chooses an alliance  with him instead of trying her chances with her literal cousin and men who have been shown to be sympathetic and protective of her? Exactly how would a sensible person conclude these are her best odds? She's lucky LF's army didn't turn up to slaughter all her allies. Especially after she made it clear she gave to shits about him and told him to GTFO.

It does matter as it shows that Sansa didn't own Vale forces, but had actually to ask and make promises for it. In that letter she promised to reward LF and the preview for the next episode showed us that we will see that coming into play. She chose alliance with him because she had no choice. She rejected him, but only after they had no other options and Jon decided to march on WF, she decided to make a deal with devil. She knew what LF wants and she was ready to offer it. She knew what she has to offer. That is what we will see in the next episode. And I think that will show why it was difficult for Sansa to surrender that choice to anyone but herself.

7 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

I just realised that Melisande should be added to the list of people terrible at their jobs for failing to foresee ANY of this. 

There were some talks that she was going to cast some magic to protect Jon's army, which, obviously, didn't happen... She was completely useless. 

[Joan Jett]

6 minutes ago, Risto said:

Not like Ned. Ned never had an impulsive bone in his body. Catelyn, yes. Ned, never.

Wrong, Ned does act impulsive. Like when he started strangling LF after he bought him to that brothel where Cat was. 

[Future Null Infinity]

30 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Sansa is more Tully, hell more Lannister and Baelish, than a Stark, and she's becoming quite conniving/cold-hearted. Hence it was easy for her to give up on Rickon. Hence she didn't look particularly distressed over his death. She knew Rickon was a dead man walking the moment Jon read it in the letter

Yes, you are right, She's only stark by name, she no more have the starks' way of thinking, she spent too much time in KL and in the court, she learned another way of thinking and she is no more thinking with her emotions like the other starks

 

35 minutes ago, Darksky said:

What Jon did before the battle was perfectly in character, book and show wise. There was no other way to do it. There was no way Jon would just sit back and watch his family get killed in front of him. He'd try to get to him even if it's hopeless. He nearly succeeded. Then his wolf's blood took over and he lost it. Although at that point retrieving would have just resulted in him being shot in the back, so the only option was to charge. He was suicidal, he didn't give a shit anymore.

he will be always courageous, he have the courage of Ned

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, Joan Jett said:

Actually Ned does act impulsive sometimes. Like when he started strangling LF after he bought him to that brothel where Cat was. 

That is far from impulsive... That's defending his wife's honor. It has been said countless times that they were very different. They were basically Sansa and Arya of the generation.

1 minute ago, Future Null Infinity said:

Yes, you are right, She's only stark by name, she no more have the starks' way of thinking, she spent too much time in KL and in the court, she learned another way of thinking and she is no more thinking with her emotions like the other starks

She played to win. And that seems to be her grandfather's thinking. Stark thinking. Honestly people, do you actually believe all Starks are the same? What is the point of having 4 different children if they are all the same with the same ideas, thoughts etc. They all differ and they all represent different roles and sides of the pack. Sansa included.

[Darksky]

Jon is like Ned when it comes to honour, duty, doing what's right. But he's like Brandon, Lyanna and Arya in everything else.

^ Jon fell into Ramsay's trap but only because he used Rickon to do so. It would have been OOC if he hadn't done what he did.

Like I said, he found himself far behind enemy's lines. There was no option to fall back (he'd die without fighting), he decided to make a last stand. He didn't actually order anyone to charge with him. His lieutenants, Davos and Tormund, made that call.

[Joan Jett]

3 minutes ago, Risto said:

That is far from impulsive... That's defending his wife's honor. It has been said countless times that they were very different. They were basically Sansa and Arya of the generation.

You do know the definition of impulsive right? And choking someone against a wall in a crowded street doesn't qualify in your book? Can't say I'm surprised.  

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, Darksky said:

Jon is like Ned when it comes to honour, duty, doing what's right. But he's like Brandon, Lyanna and Arya in everything else.

Jon may have a lot from both Ned and the other side of Stark tree, the wild one, but they all differ. Ned was man of the duty, which can't be said for Lyanna or Arya. Brandon was wild, open, while Ned was quiet. Sansa, in general, shares a lot with her father in that respect. She likes solitude, she pulls in herself, not to mention that she started the series as naive as her beloved father.

4 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Like I said, he found himself far behind enemy's lines. There was no option to fall back (he'd die without fighting), he decided to make a last stand. He didn't actually order anyone to charge with him. His lieutenants, Davos and Tormund, made that call.

What kind of army doesn't march to save their commander? The said commander should have never put himself in that position. 

[Darksky]

14 minutes ago, Risto said:

There were some talks that she was going to cast some magic to protect Jon's army, which, obviously, didn't happen... She was completely useless. 

If that had happened, people would have bitched about it being contrived deus ex machina because she never cast a spell to protect Stannis and his army.

[Mladen]

Just now, Darksky said:

If that had happened, people would have bitched about it being contrived deus ex machina because she never cast a spell to protect Stannis and his army.

Because we didn't have one deus ex machina this episode

Two deii ex machina would actually be rather original  

[Darksky]

^ do you know what that phrase means?

It means something unexpected, out of left field. The Vale army getting involved in the battle against Boltons was basically telegraphed this season. It was set up last year, starting with Littlefinger meeting with Cersei and her giving him the order to rally the Valemen against the Boltons. 

It was the opposite of deus ex machina

[Future Null Infinity]

2 minutes ago, Risto said:

She played to win. And that seems to be her grandfather's thinking. Stark thinking. Honestly people, do you actually believe all Starks are the same? What is the point of having 4 different children if they are all the same with the same ideas, thoughts etc. They all differ and they all represent different roles and sides of the pack. Sansa included.

My friend, I love her new way of thinking, I always had the idea that the problem of the starks is they are too impulsive, too much driven by emotions, they live with too much ideals, they are courageous, honorable and believe in duty but they are not pragmatic or practical people, and that what Sansa got from her journey in KL, she didn't tell Jon about the Vale's army and she concealed this information from everybody to lure ramsay outside winterfell, because if he knew about the Vale's army is coming it will be a very long siege

[Future Null Infinity]

13 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Jon is like Ned when it comes to honour, duty, doing what's right. But he's like Brandon, Lyanna and Arya in everything else.

^ Jon fell into Ramsay's trap but only because he used Rickon to do so. It would have been OOC if he hadn't done what he did.

Like I said, he found himself far behind enemy's lines. There was no option to fall back (he'd die without fighting), he decided to make a last stand. He didn't actually order anyone to charge with him. His lieutenants, Davos and Tormund, made that call.

he didn't fell into ramsay's trap, he is just the type of man who can't only watch, he's a man of action 

[Darksky]

So she basically used Jon  (her family) and his men as cannon fodder. Good going Sansa.

[Mladen]

4 minutes ago, Darksky said:

^ do you know what that phrase means?

It means something unexpected, out of left field. The Vale army getting involved in the battle against Boltons was basically telegraphed this season. It was set up last year, starting with Littlefinger meeting with Cersei and her giving him the order to rally the Valemen against the Boltons. 

It was the opposite of deus ex machina

It was deus ex machina in the LOTR type of fashion. Gandalf did announce he will arrive, or Rohan army did gather, but they all arrive in the last possible moment when if second late, everything would go terrible for the protagonists. Same happened here. The army magically appeared when it had to save Jon from imminent death.

3 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

My friend, I love her new way of thinking, I always had the idea that the problem of the starks is they are too impulsive, too much driven by emotions, they live with too much ideals, they are courageous, honorable and believe in duty but they are not pragmatic or practical people, and that what Sansa got from her journey in KL, she didn't tell Jon about the Vale's army and she concealed this information from everybody to lure ramsay outside winterfell, because if he knew about the Vale's army is coming it will be a very long siege

Arya has always been pragmatic, Jon can be pragmatic too (at least in the books). Sansa went long way from having idealized version of world embedded in her brain to someone who sees things as they are.

1 minute ago, Darksky said:

So she basically used Jon  (her family) and his men as cannon fodder. Good going Sansa.

I don't think that is what happened here. I will wait and see what was actually going on in her brain. It seems we will have a bit of talk next episode.