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BlackwaterPark

Jon IS a deserter of the Night's Watch

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6 minutes ago, The Bastard Dayne said:

Not so sure about this if certain rumors are to be believed.

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And it should be pointed out that the source of those rumors has been spot on about everything else they said regarding this season.

 

Can you link me up to these rumours?

 

PM me if it breaks any rules to post publicly,thanks

 

 

BW

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3 minutes ago, The Bastard Dayne said:

Not so sure about this if certain rumors are to be believed.

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And it should be pointed out that the source of those rumors has been spot on about everything else they said regarding this season.

 

Well, I hope those rumors aren't true, because it SHOULD be Sansa, or Brandon, taking the throne. Jon Snow is bastard born after all, and for every Stark to be where they are of the most use during the final season it makes sense that Sansa becomes a political leader, hardened by her many trials, while Jon Snow leads forces northward to confront the Others.

Alternately, Sansa takes control of the Vale, which probably requires chopping off a Finger first.

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Dude, it's the show. Why bother with little things like details and consistency. While we can argue the finer points of whether or not Jon's death invalidates his vow or not, everyone else will assume he deserted and should behave accordingly. They don't because ... reasons.

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The Nights Watch is also all but extinct at this point. Jon made that point evident when he had to bring the wildlings into the fold to bolster the numbers on the wall. I kind of like the irony that in order to defend against the walkers the watch has to be changed. Even in better days, the Watch alone wouldn't be able to withstand another War for Dawn. Soon enough, I believe that the Watch and the Wall will be irrelevant anyway. 

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1 minute ago, jandslegate said:

The Nights Watch is also all but extinct at this point. Jon made that point evident when he had to bring the wildlings into the fold to bolster the numbers on the wall. I kind of like the irony that in order to defend against the walkers the watch has to be changed. Even in better days, the Watch alone wouldn't be able to withstand another War for Dawn. Soon enough, I believe that the Watch and the Wall will be irrelevant anyway. 

Not to mention most people in Westeros don't take the NW seriously anymore. It's just a place to desert criminals and low born folks. Only Ned took it seriously in his days. and now the North would be "Fxxx the king in the south!" So who cares. What matters is that Jon has brought back some hope for the honorable Stark in the old days. 

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1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

Dude, it's the show. Why bother with little things like details and consistency. While we can argue the finer points of whether or not Jon's death invalidates his vow or not, everyone else will assume he deserted and should behave accordingly. They don't because ... reasons.

I expect the show to overlook it, unless someone here had another idea. I'm wondering about books though, I don't see GRRM omitting this and I don't know how he expects to resolve it. Unless Jon's revival takes longer and by that time ravens notified the whole kingdom he is dead... then he showing up to conquer Winterfell would seen more symbolic and nobody would care about desertion I guess.

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If Jon were suddenly captured by the Crown or Lannisters or someone loyal to them he would likely be executed for desertion. But he has had an army the whole time which made it impossible for them or anyone else to do it.

You can't take prisoners at a parly or noone will ever parly with you again. It is the oldest and most respected tradition in warfare that you don't betray a parly or white flag. It would be extremely dishonourable. Frey might do it, but that's it. And that's why no house likes the Frey's. They all know the Frey's can't be trusted to be honourable.

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15 minutes ago, BlackwaterPark said:

I expect the show to overlook it, unless someone here had another idea. I'm wondering about books though, I don't see GRRM omitting this and I don't know how he expects to resolve it. Unless Jon's revival takes longer and by that time ravens notified the whole kingdom he is dead... then he showing up to conquer Winterfell would seen more symbolic and nobody would care about desertion I guess.

I doubt that the books will go down like the show.  I'm thinking that 1) Jon is dead for more than a few hours, long enough that it's clear he died and then was resurrected.  So it's more clear his watch has ended.  2) I think him being resurrencted with have much more of an impact on how ppl view him (i.e. The watch, the free folk and the northern houses).  The one line about how the free folk think he's a God is all we got.  Everyone else is pretty non chalant about it.  3) I think that Stannis will defeat the boltons and take winterfell.  Mel will sacrifice shireen to resurrect Jon.  Jon will head to winterfell to call the northern lords to war against the ww.  The northern lords will either turn on stannis or banish him or keep him as an ally but will follow this magical man who bested death itself, has great leadership skills and just screams king in the north.

i don't know what's gonna happen with dany.  The second she leaves mereen for good, the city is fucked.  Which is why the masters are so stupid.  If I were them, I would have taken that deal Tyrion offered with the bet that in (how many years did he let them keep slaves? 7?) 7 years she will most likely be in westeros where she can't defend the city/free people anymore.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Brother Walfrid said:

If i have a heart attack and clinically die before being resucitated, does this mean I can leave my wife without divorcing her?

 

The vow was "till death us do part"

Haha yes I believe so.  At least that's my plan...

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6 hours ago, BlackwaterPark said:

So, is everyone just ignoring the fact that Jon Snow is a deserter? Yes, I know. One could say that dying and being brought back released him from his vows (still arguable, but I like the concept) but are they telling that to everyone? I don't think so, and even if they are, then who would believe it?
First episode of the series we see Ned Stark beheading that poor deserter without hesitating, I'd expect any northerner to do the same.
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the show completely ignores this, I'm more concerned on how the books will handle it. I don't think GRRM will miss this fact.

Jon deserted the wall so he could return the Starks to power and to Rally the north to fight the white walkers, Jons hope is for a united North to beat them but with Ramsey in charge they had no hope.

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who  cares , his plot armor will solve this problem , didnt you guys see how ridiculous is his plot armor in this episode ?

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6 hours ago, DaMavs said:

Yes - Ramsay mentioned that he would pardon Jon for his desertion of the Night's Watch during their parley.  Jon didn't play the resurrection card to explain it though for some reason...

I think it mikght strain credulity to claim Jon was resurrected by a foreign god when Northerners are Old Gods people.  Who would believe him?

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33 minutes ago, Vastet said:

If Jon were suddenly captured by the Crown or Lannisters or someone loyal to them he would likely be executed for desertion. But he has had an army the whole time which made it impossible for them or anyone else to do it.

How many Northern Lords shit talked him when he went asking for help? how many of them called him a cowardly deserter? I didn't expect any of them to execute him when he came with his entourage to talk, but they threw everything else at him to explain why the North is forgetful, throwing in a deserter or two would have meant the show was paying attention.

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7 hours ago, BlackwaterPark said:

So, is everyone just ignoring the fact that Jon Snow is a deserter? Yes, I know. One could say that dying and being brought back released him from his vows (still arguable, but I like the concept) but are they telling that to everyone? I don't think so, and even if they are, then who would believe it?
First episode of the series we see Ned Stark beheading that poor deserter without hesitating, I'd expect any northerner to do the same.
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the show completely ignores this, I'm more concerned on how the books will handle it. I don't think GRRM will miss this fact.

Thank you, I was thinking about it the whole episode.

Then, when Ramsay said that he kept hearing things about him, I hoped he was going to say something about resurrecting.

My 2 options about how this will be solved are.

1 - The showrunners will keep on treating the audience as stupid and will not do anything about it.

2 - The NW will have sent ravens to all Westeros saying that they released Jon from his vows or something like this.

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Jon is not a deserter of the Night's watch. He died and was brought back to life. Ramsay is using it as propaganda/misinformation. Jon's resurrection might come into play as a mythical status along with the defeat of the Boltons. Jon was still the field commander and fought in the epicenter of the Battle.

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How many Northern Lords shit talked him when he went asking for help? how many of them called him a cowardly deserter?



We only saw 2. One who supported him and one who didn't.
Why would he be a coward? He never deserted to run from a fight, he ran towards a fight. Whether he's a deserter might be debatable, but noone can call him coward.

I didn't expect any of them to execute him when he came with his entourage to talk, but they threw everything else at him to explain why the North is forgetful, throwing in a deserter or two would have meant the show was paying attention.



These are 10 episode seasons, not 20 where they can flesh out so many details that they have to write filler episodes just to take up space. Each scene has a specific goal or goals that must be accomplished. The details you're looking for would be on the cutting room floor even if they'd been filmed, in order for all the other scenes to fit.

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2 minutes ago, Vastet said:

We only saw 2. One who supported him and one who didn't.
Why would he be a coward? He never deserted to run from a fight, he ran towards a fight. Whether he's a deserter might be debatable, but noone can call him coward.

These are 10 episode seasons, not 20 where they can flesh out so many details that they have to write filler episodes just to take up space. Each scene has a specific goal or goals that must be accomplished. The details you're looking for would be on the cutting room floor even if they'd been filmed, in order for all the other scenes to fit.

He run into a fight. But the NW doesn't take part into kings wars. So that was wrong no matter how you put it.

And how has each scene a specefic goal when they put TWO f***ing scenes of Tyrion trying to be friends with GreyWorm and Missandei?

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Legally , he is obviously not a deserter. That was the whole point of GRRM killing him in the first place. 

Of course others might charge him with desertion. However in the chaos to come, no one will care about these rules. Jon is the only one who would have truly cared. And in his mind, he knows his watch ended legally.

Besides all of NW and Davos, an anointed knight of the realm (yes, that would make a difference to a lot of people), can vouch for his release by death. A King / Queen can further release him.

Also, it does not matter what Ramsay (or anyone else in a world like GoT's) says about their opponents during war. If the Old Gods had released Jon themselves, Ramsay would still call him a deserter because it suits his purpose.

_________

And yes, he could've still chosen to stay in the Nights Watch after being resurrected. He left not due to cowardice, but out of bitterness and disgust over being the Lord Commander who was stabbed to death by his officers for doing the "right" thing (remember his talk with Davos after his resurrection?), and then having to execute the lot of them, including his young prodigy.

His left to unite the North under the rightful lords against the White Walkers, not to run from them.

 

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7 hours ago, Apathetic Onlooker said:

Again...  no one knows this though.  And who would believe it?  They don't even believe the White Walkers exist.  Why would they believe he died and came back to life so he's free of his vow?

Because they've met Beric Dondarrion?

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