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Nymeria Pao

The High Sparrow, not who he is but rather what he knows...

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During my last re-read I had a thought.  The HS was said to have wandered all over the place doing septon work.  What if he was on the Isle of Faces wandering around, marrying people, and actually was the septon to marry R+L.  Cersei thinks to herself that the HS has not yet blessed Tommen as King.  And when she says something to him he responds by saying the time is not right (or something to that tune.)  What if he isn't blessing Tommen because he knows there was a child from this marriage and there is a true king or queen out there?  Could be a cool twist...

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That could actually be pretty cool, but didn't that travelling Septon have a name? Can't recall.

To make another point about what he knows, Lancel confessed all to him, and Lancel knows about the twincest so likely the HS knows "for sure" about the paternity/status of Tommen and Myrcella as well.

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7 hours ago, Nymeria Pao said:

During my last re-read I had a thought.  The HS was said to have wandered all over the place doing septon work.  What if he was on the Isle of Faces wandering around, marrying people, and actually was the septon to marry R+L.  Cersei thinks to herself that the HS has not yet blessed Tommen as King.  And when she says something to him he responds by saying the time is not right (or something to that tune.)  What if he isn't blessing Tommen because he knows there was a child from this marriage and there is a true king or queen out there?  Could be a cool twist...

He traded that, plus one million golden dragons of the Crown's debt, in exchange for reestablishing the Faith Militant. The "time is not right" was a diplomatic way of saying "I want something from you".

6 hours ago, StoneyTargaryen said:

That could actually be pretty cool, but didn't that travelling Septon have a name? Can't recall.

In the books, you mean? Even the possibility of his existence is never directly mentioned, let alone a name.

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10 hours ago, StoneyTargaryen said:

That could actually be pretty cool, but didn't that travelling Septon have a name? Can't recall.

To make another point about what he knows, Lancel confessed all to him, and Lancel knows about the twincest so likely the HS knows "for sure" about the paternity/status of Tommen and Myrcella as well.

 

3 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

He traded that, plus one million golden dragons of the Crown's debt, in exchange for reestablishing the Faith Militant. The "time is not right" was a diplomatic way of saying "I want something from you".

In the books, you mean? Even the possibility of his existence is never directly mentioned, let alone a name.

I assume your referring to Meribald the septon Brienne and Pod meet.

As to the OP, it doesn't make any sense for a Septon to be on the isle of Faces.  Most people who try to go there are turned back by storms or ravens, the only characters we know to have made it are Lucerys Valyron who flew on a dragon, and Howland Reed who keeps the Old gods.

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You know...

In general, I really don't like the High Sparrow theories. Especially the HS = HR thing.

But I kinda like the idea that he married Rhaegar and Lyanna. That being said, as much as I like it, where is the proof? Or even suggestion for that matter? For all the evidence, the H.S. could just as easily be the septon who married Tyrion and Tysha. You know what I mean?

It would be a cool twist though...

 

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2 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

 

I assume your referring to Meribald the septon Brienne and Pod meet.

As to the OP, it doesn't make any sense for a Septon to be on the isle of Faces.  Most people who try to go there are turned back by storms or ravens, the only characters we know to have made it are Lucerys Valyron who flew on a dragon, and Howland Reed who keeps the Old gods.

No not Meribald. 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/High_Sparrow

See history.  I believe R+L=J and if that is correct I can't see Rhaegar letting his "3rd head of the dragon" being born a bastard.  So I think they did get married.  Even if it wasn't on the Isle of Faces (which I am not 100% about) it could have happened anywhere from Harrenhal to Dorne. 

I was originally a HS=HR but I think this might make a better story. 

12 hours ago, StoneyTargaryen said:

That could actually be pretty cool, but didn't that travelling Septon have a name? Can't recall.

We don't have a name for the High Sparrow yet.  I just keep thinking someone other than HR has to know about a potential child from the R+L union. 

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3 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

You know...

In general, I really don't like the High Sparrow theories. Especially the HS = HR thing.

But I kinda like the idea that he married Rhaegar and Lyanna. That being said, as much as I like it, where is the proof? Or even suggestion for that matter? For all the evidence, the H.S. could just as easily be the septon who married Tyrion and Tysha. You know what I mean?

It would be a cool twist though...

 

I do know that GRRM is not a fan of religion in whole.  But I just keep thinking that the HS needs to have a bigger role than just religion.  I am probably wrong but thought it would be cool if he tied both stories together.  :)  Him marrying Tyrion and Tysha would be cool too!  Maybe he knows where the whores go.

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Wouldn't this require the (now) High Septon to go against the teachings of the Faith on polygamy?  Or did the wandering septon also dissolve Rhaegar's existing marriage?  

 

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9 minutes ago, CJ McLannister said:

Wouldn't this require the (now) High Septon to go against the teachings of the Faith on polygamy?  Or did the wandering septon also dissolve Rhaegar's existing marriage?  

 

That is a problem, isn't it?  But someone would have married them.  We could shoot down my theory right now if they were married in front of a weirwood tree...  But the bottom line for me is that someone had to of married them.  I can't see it being some random dude that we will never see.  Someone (and it wouldn't or couldn't be Ned or Howland) needs to know that they were married.  A Targ marriage cloak in Lyanna crypt could show something, but it could have been stolen.  It could have been given without a marriage.  I think we really need to find the person who married them.  And in my mind the HS works well as that person. 

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7 minutes ago, Nymeria Pao said:

But I just keep thinking that the HS needs to have a bigger role than just religion. 

Agreed. I think the High Sparrow (among other things,) puts a face to the feelings of the people in King's Landing. He is the result of Cersei's terrible governance. I have a feeling that the riot from The Princess And The Queen (when they stormed the Dragonpit,) was a bit of foreshadowing for how things are going to get in King's Landing.

Spoiler

With Kevan and Pycelle gone, Cersei is basically unleashed.

I think there have already been some comparisons between Cersei and the Mad King. I wonder if her imprisonment is going to have an impact on her like Duskendale did for Aerys. Anyway, I don't think Cersei is going to have a trial, and I think the H.S. is going to unleash the city on King's Landing.

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I like that idea. I don't know how to back it up, but still interesting. I'm curious about what he learned from Osney Kettleblack about Littlefinger. Aren't the Kettleblacks employed by Littlefinger? CLearly he wouldn't give the Kettleblacks a lot of information about his plan but they have to know something. And the High Sparrow did have his methods to get him to confess. Just some food for thought here.

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15 hours ago, StoneyTargaryen said:

To make another point about what he knows, Lancel confessed all to him, and Lancel knows about the twincest so likely the HS knows "for sure" about the paternity/status of Tommen and Myrcella as well.

 

Lancel doesn't know about the twincest. He knows Cersei had sex with him after Robert's death, and maybe he suspects the twincest. I personally read his converation with Jaime at Darry in the way that he doesn't even suspect, though.

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3 hours ago, CJ McLannister said:

Wouldn't this require the (now) High Septon to go against the teachings of the Faith on polygamy?  Or did the wandering septon also dissolve Rhaegar's existing marriage?  

 

The faith seemed ok in the past with Targ polygamy. I was under the impression that the practice more went out of vogue rather than being outlawed by the faith. Targaryen's do not answer to men or gods.

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They weren't OK with it.  It was one of the factors that led to the clashes between the Faith and Maegor the Cruel.  But the Targaryens had dragons, so there wasn't much that they could do about it.  According to Martin:

Quote

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.

If Rhaegar took a second wife, it wasn't with the blessings of "the Faith".  Either he found a rogue Septon who was cool with polygamy, concealed his identity and his marital status, used an alternative marriage rite (Old Gods, Red God, Green Men, whatever), or he never married Lyanna.  

Could that rogue septon rise up to be the most powerful man in King's Landing, and bring back the militant order that fought against the last openly polygamous Targaryen king?  I guess it's plausible, but I can't think of anything pointing in that direction.

It feels like a long way to go just to have a reliable witness to a secret marriage that would legitimize an unknown bastard as the heir to an ousted dynasty.

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1 hour ago, CJ McLannister said:

...

Could that rogue septon rise up to be the most powerful man in King's Landing, and bring back the militant order that fought against the last openly polygamous Targaryen king?  I guess it's plausible, but I can't think of anything pointing in that direction.

...

But isn't the High Sparrow a rogue septon anyway?  Isn't he described that way totally?  Just the way they burst into voting of the Most Devout with axes and his men had him on their shoulders...  Look again I am probably wrong.  They were probably married by the old gods for Lyanna, but if they were in the south to begin with where would they find a weirwood tree?  Who in the south follows the old gods?  And if they made it all the way to Dorne, well another religion just doesn't seem to fit in my head.  I am hoping we will see the trail of breadcrumbs in TWOW. 

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15 hours ago, Shireen Purratheon said:

I had always had it in the back of my head it was Meribald who married Rhaegar and Lyanna, but that's just me.

I could see that too.  But I think it would make for a bigger twist if it were the HS.

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20 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Agreed. I think the High Sparrow (among other things,) puts a face to the feelings of the people in King's Landing. He is the result of Cersei's terrible governance. I have a feeling that the riot from The Princess And The Queen (when they stormed the Dragonpit,) was a bit of foreshadowing for how things are going to get in King's Landing.

  Reveal hidden contents

With Kevan and Pycelle gone, Cersei is basically unleashed.

I think there have already been some comparisons between Cersei and the Mad King. I wonder if her imprisonment is going to have an impact on her like Duskendale did for Aerys. Anyway, I don't think Cersei is going to have a trial, and I think the H.S. is going to unleash the city on King's Landing.

Because I am also a show watcher, I will not comment on this.  My thoughts here are twisted now based on the show.  Although I do really like this parallel.  How could she not have been impacted after that.  And we know (based on Maggie the frog's predictions) that Marcella and Tommen will not live long, she will definitely lose her mind.  

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I could see this. The High Septon has seemed devious to me, but he's never seemed evil, or even "bad" in any way. He has a clear plan that he is obviously following. 

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17 hours ago, Nymeria Pao said:

But isn't the High Sparrow a rogue septon anyway?  Isn't he described that way totally?  Just the way they burst into voting of the Most Devout with axes and his men had him on their shoulders...  Look again I am probably wrong.  They were probably married by the old gods for Lyanna, but if they were in the south to begin with where would they find a weirwood tree?  Who in the south follows the old gods?  And if they made it all the way to Dorne, well another religion just doesn't seem to fit in my head.  I am hoping we will see the trail of breadcrumbs in TWOW. 

He was rogue in the sense that he's a fundamentalist rather than a politician.  Maybe monogamy isn't a "core value" of a polytheistic faith with multiple gendered gods.  The way he's going after the two queens for primarily sexual offenses doesn't suggest that he's on board with free love.  There could be something to it, but the text does not support it so far.

If Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, reliable evidence is going to be really hard to come by.  If legitimacy was important to Rhaegar, he did a very shitty job ensuring it.

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