Heresy 188

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I'll bump this post by Bran Stark because it could have gone somehwere.

It does occur to me that the Bael story may not have been quite as Ygritte told it and that the woman is the Lord Stark's daughter crying for a son to avenge her by slaying the man who abducted and dishonoured her - ie; Bael.

If so that might have interesting ramifications if the Bael story is indeed a parable for Lyanna and Jon.

[KirnMalidus]

I'm inclined to believe Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar.

The evidence suggests he came upon her in the Riverlands, outside of a holdfast or town, which implies she was riding.

There have been at least two instances of characters reminiscing about Lyanna and remembering what a skilled rider she was. Roose Bolton recalls that she was "half a horse herself."

This implies she would be difficult to catch on a horse, which leads me to think she went with Rhaegar willingly.

Also, the She Wolves period has been brought up in this thread, with some questioning what the issue of succession was in that time. My understanding is that there were too many potential heirs, each with a mother fighting for their children's claim.

[Black Crow]

 

Welcome to Heresy

It has been pointed out in times past that a certain Inn at the Crossroads which features again and again in the story is in the right place geographically. It is most likely that Lyanna, like Tyrion, was abducted there rather than while sitting on a horse. That's not to rule out the possibility of a pre-arranged meeting at that landmark although we have no evidence at all of collusion.

[wolfmaid7]

19 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It does occur to me that the Bael story may not have been quite as Ygritte told it and that the woman is the Lord Stark's daughter crying for a son to avenge her by slaying the man who abducted and dishonoured her - ie; Bael.

If so that might have interesting ramifications if the Bael story is indeed a parable for Lyanna and Jon.

I don't know,could be but i was thinking broader in terms of a story being told using the visions themselves.I don't know if its important fifuring out who the people are in the visions because that might take till the next book.So i was thinking of deconstructing the vision to its basic.Is the vision itself a story of what might have happened.

Kind of like  guess what story these pictures are telling .

1.Ned praying to the gods that two boys grow as brothers with love between them.

For sure we know this is Ned and i think this is important that the tree showed Bran Ned at this particualr moment

2.Second visual is it seems Lyanna and Benjen practicing in secret at swrod play.

We also see Lyanna and Benjen and the vision we are shown is that of her practicing to fight.I also think this is important.

3.A pregnant woman praying for a son to avenge her.

We have know clue who ths woman is really and i doubt that's important.What's important is that she was pregnant praying for a son to avenge her.Also,the ideology about Kinslaying is too much of a taboo in this story,that's even pointed out in the "Tale O't Winter Rose."Additionally,the mother was pretty broken up that the son killed the father.That taboo i think plays a big part here.Therefore,i think whoever wronged this woman is not the father but that she wants her son to kick ass.

4.Brown haired girl standing on her toes to kiss a tall Knight.

A  girl who we are told has brown hair,very slender kissing a knight who was tall.Interesting the initiator or the agressor is the girl.That the ofcourse are at the heart tree indicates they wanted a bit of seclusion.

5.Dark eyed youth cutting branches from Weirwood to make arrows.

Its mentioned he was dark eyed,pale and fierce cutting Weirwood branches for arrows,so he was going to fight.

6.Lord's tall,hard and stern in fur and chain mail,Bran recognizes some of them from the crypts.

The Kings of Winter perhaps?

 

I like # 3 and # 4 switching places .

 

 

[wolfmaid7]

Black crow could you post the link to your ronin essay?

[Black Crow]

 

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I don't know,could be but i was thinking broader in terms of a story being told using the visions themselves.I don't know if its important figuring out who the people are in the visions because that might take till the next book.So i was thinking of deconstructing the vision to its basic.Is the vision itself a story of what might have happened.

I see what you mean here and its possible, but if so I'd say its a story that has happened and is most likely Jon's story told through a montage of different and otherwise unrelated clips.

That scene with Ned identifies Jon;

Next we get Lyanna;

Then the pregnant woman: I still maintain that historically she is most likely the Lord Stark's daughter stolen and raped by Bael, but I could see her standing in for Lyanna. If so that's important because she wants a son to avenge her not the baby's father, hence my suggestion that he's to slay the father - or one of his kin.

Tall knight and the girl: could historically be Ser Duncan the Tall and [?] but representing Ser Arthur Dayne and Lyanna?

Dark-eyed youth and the weirwood arrows: generally reckoned to be Brandon Snow, but hinting at Jon slaying a certain Targaryen Dragonlord?

And then the Kings of Winter: hard men for hard times.

[Black Crow]

14 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Black crow could you post the link to your ronin essay?

I'm not sure there is one. I have it as a word document and paste it as and an when.

[wolfmaid7]

16 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

 

I see what you mean here and its possible, but if so I'd say its a story that has happened and is most likely Jon's story told through a montage of different and otherwise unrelated clips.

That scene with Ned identifies Jon;

Next we get Lyanna;

Then the pregnant woman: I still maintain that historically she is most likely the Lord Stark's daughter stolen and raped by Bael, but I could see her standing in for Lyanna. If so that's important because she wants a son to avenge her not the baby's father, hence my suggestion that he's to slay the father - or one of his kin.

Tall knight and the girl: could historically be Ser Duncan the Tall and [?] but representing Ser Arthur Dayne and Lyanna?

Dark-eyed youth and the weirwood arrows: generally reckoned to be Brandon Snow, but hinting at Jon slaying a certain Targaryen Dragonlord?

And then the Kings of Winter: hard men for hard times.

To the red bolded,i defintely think that is what's going on a series of snap shots through the Weirwood is being used to tell that story.Infact i agree with everything except the Dayne/Lyanna part  but i do think its indicating her and Jon's father and that based on what we saw it was reciprocal indeed.

Yep i think the pregnant woman is a stand in for Lyanna though in actuality she could have been "Maiden Winter Rose" but her state and what she said actually served the Weirwoods purpose as it relates to what it's trying to say.

Dido on the Tall knight and brown haired girl as Duncan and [?] and ofcourse representing Lyanna and [Tall knight]

Brandon Snow,/dark eyed youth  oh yes,now we have another bastard of Winterfell ith dark eyes......Interesting.He's the one who was going to possibly kill himself some Dragons.....Another interesting  tidbit -An idea we talked about here.

And as you rightfully ended a snap shot of the old Kings of Winter after.So maybe forshadowing for what will be a return to them being that in the form of winterfell's bastard??? Something else we have talked about here alot.

 

15 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'm not sure there is one. I have it as a word document and paste it as and an when.

Ahh crap,it was being asked for at the other place.Do you mind PMing me it so i can post it there?

[Dornish Neck Tie]

Has the Heresy thread ever given much discussion to the institution of knighthood? I feel the Andal culture and religion have a much bigger role to play in this story and the events leading up to it than for which it is given credit.

Given (I dunno, maybe it's not a given) that knighthood as a concept has uniquely Andal/Faith of the Seven origins, isn't it fishy that the Night's Watch has so closely mimicked a knightly sort of order in both mission statement and actions, supposedly since it's inception before or during the Long Night? I mean, I know that there have been some changes since the official Andal arrival and the Conquest, but not in the fundamental setup of the whole thing to which I'm referring. The Fiath of the Seven is the one in which followers look within for paragons of particular ideals, while the religion of the Old Gods represents a surrender of free will before the laws of nature. And isn't it weird that the White Walkers themselves also bear a striking resemblance to knights in how they conduct themselves? And sure it's just a story, but the references to Symeon Stary-Eyes as a "knight" in the Age of Heroes are surely a very deliberate choice of words, right? "Knight" is among GRRM's favorite fairy tale buzzwords to play around with. This along with "shadow," which interestingly enough is frequently used to describe both White Walkers and various sacred knightly orders, like Khal Drogo's bloodriders, and Ned's memory of the companions who so honorably died for him at the Tower of Joy.

I think the "squeaky wheel" that simply and effectively explains all of the glaring inconsistencies and historical biases in our timelines of the way, way back is that the Andals were in fact around for the Long Night and the appearance of the White Walkers and wights, and may have had something to do with it in the first place. Maybe this is just a product of ancient stories of the First Men being filtered through an Andal cultural lens, but even so, the immediate cause of the Long Night is still a massive question mark. The Long Night occurred thousands of years after the First Men and CotF had already made their peace, yet some threat still caused the Children to call down the winds of winter? The Pact explicitly forbade the further destruction of weirwoods, which is exactly the course of action pursued by followers of the Seven upon their arrival to Westeros. The recognition of the Seven as a real threat is, IMO, clearly our best answer for a Long Night trigger. I apologize if this has been covered before, but this screams at me off the pages every time I open these books, and this opinion has endured nothing but ridicule on Reddit.

 

ETA: I also think the idea that the Faith of the Seven invests its faith in the power and virtue of the human experience is an exceedingly strong hint the human faction will ultimately be responsible for solving the central conflict, rather than owing anything particular to fire and/or ice magics.

[Lady Dyanna]

On July 13, 2016 at 0:06 PM, Feather Crystal said:

As far as I know the inversion chapters don't begin until AFFC, that being said Theon could be reliving a Targaryen or a Blackfyre life since I do believe in the inversion theory and the Greyjoys are set to relive events from the past. When I first began the study of the inversion chapters I thought they were reliving the Targaryens, but when I got to The Reaver chapter it became clear, at least to me, that Victarion is reliving Bittersteal's life. His invasion of the Shield Islands eerily mirrors the First Blackfyre Rebellion when Bittersteel landed with the Golden Company on Masseys Hook. If Victarion is mirroring Bittersteel and Euron is mirroring Bloodraven, then Balon is likely mirroring a Blackfyre as well, which would cause Theon to mirror the son of a Blackfyre too. This is all theory of course and I'm open to discussion.

Hmm. I'm not sure that I'm far enough along to actually agree or disagree with what you're saying you've seen with the AFFC chapters. I just haven't been able to study that far into the series as in depth as I'd like to as of yet. There's definitely something before that, but is it the same thing, I'm not sure. I usually see something else that tips you off that there's some sort of character connection going on. For example, the description of particular clothing or traits, i.e. Sansa's blue dress or Pyp's bat-like ears. I also hadn't thought to look for mirroring of past known events to base things from. As I tend to look more at the characters and their descriptions, it might not hurt to try to put our thoughts together to see how each approach ties into one another. 

So, from what I can see of what you're saying, you're connecting the Greyjoys to the Blackfyres? Looking at Balon from these early chapters had me leaning more towards Aerys, but I've also questioned Tywin too. 

I'm pretty far behind on the heresy postings and I don't want to take over the thread too much, there's so much to discuss about this, but did want to respond. 

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

The Long Night occurred thousands of years after the First Men and CotF had already made their peace, yet some threat still caused the Children to call down the winds of winter? The Pact explicitly forbade the further destruction of weirwoods, which is exactly the course of action pursued by followers of the Seven upon their arrival to Westeros. The recognition of the Seven as a real threat is, IMO, clearly our best answer for a Long Night trigger. I apologize if this has been covered before, but this screams at me off the pages every time I open these books, and this opinion has endured nothing but ridicule on Reddit.

Some people theorize that the Pact actually came about because of the LN conflict, and not before, but I think both that notion and the notion that the LN was actually a response to the Andals are things we should consider to be within the realm of possibility--the timeline seems to be incredibly unreliable, with some in-world Westerosi scholars disagreeing with one another to the degree of thousands of years.

It's also worth considering that, although the Andals shared a common culture, they did not invade all at once as a unified force, did not invade on behalf of expanding an empire--instead they came in waves, gradually conquering and intermarrying their way into culture dominance. Theoretically, a particularly ambitious and brutal Andal crusade could have prompted the LN, with later invaders having no knowledge of what had happened.

On the other hand, the placement of the Wall, and its potential relationship with the Others, CotF, and the House Stark is more suggestive of a conflict between the FM and the CotF. More speculatively, the Fist of the First Men seems a particularly ominous site, perhaps because of some connection to the war between men and CotF; there was a great post a year or two ago exploring this idea with some quotes from aCoK that may have been foreshadowing the relationship between the CotF and the Others.

[Lady Dyanna]

7 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

To the red bolded,i defintely think that is what's going on a series of snap shots through the Weirwood is being used to tell that story.Infact i agree with everything except the Dayne/Lyanna part  but i do think its indicating her and Jon's father and that based on what we saw it was reciprocal indeed.

Yep i think the pregnant woman is a stand in for Lyanna though in actuality she could have been "Maiden Winter Rose" but her state and what she said actually served the Weirwoods purpose as it relates to what it's trying to say.

Dido on the Tall knight and brown haired girl as Duncan and [?] and ofcourse representing Lyanna and [Tall knight]

Brandon Snow,/dark eyed youth  oh yes,now we have another bastard of Winterfell ith dark eyes......Interesting.He's the one who was going to possibly kill himself some Dragons.....Another interesting  tidbit -An idea we talked about here.

And as you rightfully ended a snap shot of the old Kings of Winter after.So maybe forshadowing for what will be a return to them being that in the form of winterfell's bastard??? Something else we have talked about here alot.

I really like this interpretation that you have pieced together. I would also comment that the tall Knight seems suggestive of Robert to me as well. The other thing that intrigues me, however, is the one part of the vision that wasn't mentioned, the man that had his blood spilled at the Weirwood tree with the bronze sickle. For the life of me I can't pinpoint it's significance, but I do suspect it's quite important. 

Quote

Ahh crap,it was being asked for at the other place.Do you mind PMing me it so i can post it there?

FYI. @Sly Wren found  a link somewhere and already posted it. Thanks for trying to track it down. 

[Tucu]

6 hours ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

I think the "squeaky wheel" that simply and effectively explains all of the glaring inconsistencies and historical biases in our timelines of the way, way back is that the Andals were in fact around for the Long Night and the appearance of the White Walkers and wights, and may have had something to do with it in the first place. Maybe this is just a product of ancient stories of the First Men being filtered through an Andal cultural lens, but even so, the immediate cause of the Long Night is still a massive question mark. The Long Night occurred thousands of years after the First Men and CotF had already made their peace, yet some threat still caused the Children to call down the winds of winter? The Pact explicitly forbade the further destruction of weirwoods, which is exactly the course of action pursued by followers of the Seven upon their arrival to Westeros. The recognition of the Seven as a real threat is, IMO, clearly our best answer for a Long Night trigger. I apologize if this has been covered before, but this screams at me off the pages every time I open these books, and this opinion has endured nothing but ridicule on Reddit.

There are some hints that the Starks origins might not be 100% First Men:

-The First Keep in Winterfell is not built in the style of First Men. The drum tower seems to be an anacronism and the gargoyles are rare(only other place with gargoyles seems to be Dragonstone)

- The crown of the Kings of Winter was made of bronze (First Men) and iron (Andals)

-The Reed's oath contains: "I swear it by bronze and iron". Another hint at First Men and Andal mix?

-The tomb of the Kings of Winter are guarded by iron swords, not bronze.

 

[Black Crow]

I don't think there's a problem with the Stark identity here since we need to remember that they are certainly very old and therefore things change over time.

25 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The First Keep in Winterfell is not built in the style of First Men. The drum tower seems to be an anacronism and the gargoyles are rare(only other place with gargoyles seems to be Dragonstone)

I'll not say too much on Winterfell as I'm going to kick off Heresy 191 with the bicentennial essay on Winterfell, by way of a scene-setter. What I will say at this point is that while it might be rare its not an anachonism and has its parallels in Pictish brochs.

32 minutes ago, Tucu said:

- The crown of the Kings of Winter was made of bronze (First Men) and iron (Andals)

-The Reed's oath contains: "I swear it by bronze and iron". Another hint at First Men and Andal mix?

Perfectly true and both are clearly related in that the crown will reflect the oath. Where we differ is in defining First Men and Andals by bronze and iron. Just because the First Men tooled up with bronze weapons it doesn't mean that they stuck with them forever and a day afterwards. Over time they will have obtained iron and steel swords by trade and capture, just as latter-day Westerosi aristos have acquired Valyrian blades. Just because the late Lord Eddard Stark had a 400 year-old [ie: pre-conquest] Valyrian sword, that doesn't hint at his being a Valyrian.

Rather the combination of bronze and iron in oath and crown defines them as Men rather than as belonging to the Old Races.

39 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The tomb of the Kings of Winter are guarded by iron swords, not bronze.

Old one in Heresy. Cold Iron binds magic. All we see are the most recent kings and lords bound in their graves by cold iron.There's nothing to fear from those where the swords have rusted away or appear not to have swords. Their bones are dust and can't rise.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

 The other thing that intrigues me, however, is the one part of the vision that wasn't mentioned, the man that had his blood spilled at the Weirwood tree with the bronze sickle. For the life of me I can't pinpoint it's significance, but I do suspect it's quite important. 

 

Its the hard men for hard times and a link between them and the Old Gods.

Something sealed the Pact and everything in this game centres around blood.

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Some people theorize that the Pact actually came about because of the LN conflict, and not before, but I think both that notion and the notion that the LN was actually a response to the Andals are things we should consider to be within the realm of possibility--the timeline seems to be incredibly unreliable, with some in-world Westerosi scholars disagreeing with one another to the degree of thousands of years.

It's also worth considering that, although the Andals shared a common culture, they did not invade all at once as a unified force, did not invade on behalf of expanding an empire--instead they came in waves, gradually conquering and intermarrying their way into culture dominance. Theoretically, a particularly ambitious and brutal Andal crusade could have prompted the LN, with later invaders having no knowledge of what had happened.

On the other hand, the placement of the Wall, and its potential relationship with the Others, CotF, and the House Stark is more suggestive of a conflict between the FM and the CotF. More speculatively, the Fist of the First Men seems a particularly ominous site, perhaps because of some connection to the war between men and CotF; there was a great post a year or two ago exploring this idea with some quotes from aCoK that may have been foreshadowing the relationship between the CotF and the Others.

A good summary and all I would add to it is that not all crusaders may have come across the seas. I've suggested before that a major reason for the Andals' success may not have been superior numbers or technology but that they were seen as liberators; hence the rapid and complete extinction of the tree-huggers.

[wolfmaid7]

7 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I really like this interpretation that you have pieced together. I would also comment that the tall Knight seems suggestive of Robert to me as well. The other thing that intrigues me, however, is the one part of the vision that wasn't mentioned, the man that had his blood spilled at the Weirwood tree with the bronze sickle. For the life of me I can't pinpoint it's significance, but I do suspect it's quite important. 

Oh yes this image was the last in the montage.I'll have to go back and edit my previos post to look at it it totality.

P.S. Thanks for the link to BC's essay.

9 hours ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

Has the Heresy thread ever given much discussion to the institution of knighthood? I feel the Andal culture and religion have a much bigger role to play in this story and the events leading up to it than for which it is given credit.

Given (I dunno, maybe it's not a given) that knighthood as a concept has uniquely Andal/Faith of the Seven origins, isn't it fishy that the Night's Watch has so closely mimicked a knightly sort of order in both mission statement and actions, supposedly since it's inception before or during the Long Night? I mean, I know that there have been some changes since the official Andal arrival and the Conquest, but not in the fundamental setup of the whole thing to which I'm referring. The Fiath of the Seven is the one in which followers look within for paragons of particular ideals, while the religion of the Old Gods represents a surrender of free will before the laws of nature. And isn't it weird that the White Walkers themselves also bear a striking resemblance to knights in how they conduct themselves? And sure it's just a story, but the references to Symeon Stary-Eyes as a "knight" in the Age of Heroes are surely a very deliberate choice of words, right? "Knight" is among GRRM's favorite fairy tale buzzwords to play around with. This along with "shadow," which interestingly enough is frequently used to describe both White Walkers and various sacred knightly orders, like Khal Drogo's bloodriders, and Ned's memory of the companions who so honorably died for him at the Tower of Joy.

I think the "squeaky wheel" that simply and effectively explains all of the glaring inconsistencies and historical biases in our timelines of the way, way back is that the Andals were in fact around for the Long Night and the appearance of the White Walkers and wights, and may have had something to do with it in the first place. Maybe this is just a product of ancient stories of the First Men being filtered through an Andal cultural lens, but even so, the immediate cause of the Long Night is still a massive question mark. The Long Night occurred thousands of years after the First Men and CotF had already made their peace, yet some threat still caused the Children to call down the winds of winter? The Pact explicitly forbade the further destruction of weirwoods, which is exactly the course of action pursued by followers of the Seven upon their arrival to Westeros. The recognition of the Seven as a real threat is, IMO, clearly our best answer for a Long Night trigger. I apologize if this has been covered before, but this screams at me off the pages every time I open these books, and this opinion has endured nothing but ridicule on Reddit.

 

ETA: I also think the idea that the Faith of the Seven invests its faith in the power and virtue of the human experience is an exceedingly strong hint the human faction will ultimately be responsible for solving the central conflict, rather than owing anything particular to fire and/or ice magics.

Hi there and welcome to Heresy.Yeah we have gone back and forth on this one.As you pointed out the appearence of Knights in the Age of Heroes is very telling.Events may have occured a lot closer in relation to each other despite what history says.

7 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Some people theorize that the Pact actually came about because of the LN conflict, and not before, but I think both that notion and the notion that the LN was actually a response to the Andals are things we should consider to be within the realm of possibility--the timeline seems to be incredibly unreliable, with some in-world Westerosi scholars disagreeing with one another to the degree of thousands of years.

It's also worth considering that, although the Andals shared a common culture, they did not invade all at once as a unified force, did not invade on behalf of expanding an empire--instead they came in waves, gradually conquering and intermarrying their way into culture dominance. Theoretically, a particularly ambitious and brutal Andal crusade could have prompted the LN, with later invaders having no knowledge of what had happened.

On the other hand, the placement of the Wall, and its potential relationship with the Others, CotF, and the House Stark is more suggestive of a conflict between the FM and the CotF. More speculatively, the Fist of the First Men seems a particularly ominous site, perhaps because of some connection to the war between men and CotF; there was a great post a year or two ago exploring this idea with some quotes from aCoK that may have been foreshadowing the relationship between the CotF and the Others.

Yeah the timelines are a bit wonky on this.Sam's discovery of Knights and steel during a time when there shouldn't be is kind of a tell tale sign that "History is a lie"

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

There are some hints that the Starks origins might not be 100% First Men:

-The First Keep in Winterfell is not built in the style of First Men. The drum tower seems to be an anacronism and the gargoyles are rare(only other place with gargoyles seems to be Dragonstone)

- The crown of the Kings of Winter was made of bronze (First Men) and iron (Andals)

-The Reed's oath contains: "I swear it by bronze and iron". Another hint at First Men and Andal mix?

-The tomb of the Kings of Winter are guarded by iron swords, not bronze.

 

We had a very nice discussion a while a back (Check the Heresy Guide for the Reed's Oath) about what the Oath could mean.For a few of us "iron and bronze" were indicative of the weapons used by man against the natives.Phyysical instruments of their war.Fire was their elemental contribution to the madness and caused much pain the the weirwoods.The greenseers and the COTF rolled out with earth,water and ice.

[Sly Wren]

16 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Then the pregnant woman: I still maintain that historically she is most likely the Lord Stark's daughter stolen and raped by Bael, but I could see her standing in for Lyanna. If so that's important because she wants a son to avenge her not the baby's father, hence my suggestion that he's to slay the father - or one of his kin.

I'm liking this idea! It would even fit with Ygritte's one and only disclaimer to the Bael Tale: that the maid may not have loved Bael at all. That's the ONLY caveat she puts on her tale. Which seems like a pretty important one.

And the calling for vengeance: when Ygritte tells the "real" ending of the tale, she says that it ends in kinslaying and the Bael Maid throwing herself from a tower when she sees her son come home with his father's head--her son's an unknowing kinslayer. Ygritte doesn't say why the Bael Maid kills herself, but if she's horrified at what her prayer has wrought, that her son killed his own father for her vengeance. . . yes, that could work very well. 

As for the tie to Lyanna: I still hold that the "real" end of the Bael Tale ties into Ned's fight at the tower and then bringing Danw back to Starfall and Lyanna's death and Ashara's suicide. Especially if Arthur was the father's child, Ned engaged in a kind of unknowing kinslaying, and the whole thing ends in misery.

16 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Tall knight and the girl: could historically be Ser Duncan the Tall and [?] but representing Ser Arthur Dayne and Lyanna?

Okay--am now wondering if this ties into this quote: 

Quote

Bran heard fingers fumbling at leather, followed by the sound of steel on flint. Then again. A spark flew, caught. Osha blew softly. A long pale flame awoke, stretching upward like a girl on her toes. Osha's face floated above it. She touched the flame with the head of a torch. Bran had to squint as the pitch began to burn, filling the world with orange glare. The light woke Rickon, who sat up yawning. Clash, Bran VII

I thought the phrase was telling because of the "long pale flame" in the crypts. Fits with my theory that Jon with Dawn in the crypts will wake the sleeping Kings of Winter. 

But "the girl on her toes"--

Quote

Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. Dance, Bran III

I all of Bran's POV's, those are the only two instances of the phrasing. So, seems like there's a good chance the phrasing is significant. But I need to mull on this a bit. .  

[Dornish Neck Tie]

9 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Some people theorize that the Pact actually came about because of the LN conflict, and not before, but I think both that notion and the notion that the LN was actually a response to the Andals are things we should consider to be within the realm of possibility--the timeline seems to be incredibly unreliable, with some in-world Westerosi scholars disagreeing with one another to the degree of thousands of years.

It's also worth considering that, although the Andals shared a common culture, they did not invade all at once as a unified force, did not invade on behalf of expanding an empire--instead they came in waves, gradually conquering and intermarrying their way into culture dominance. Theoretically, a particularly ambitious and brutal Andal crusade could have prompted the LN, with later invaders having no knowledge of what had happened.

On the other hand, the placement of the Wall, and its potential relationship with the Others, CotF, and the House Stark is more suggestive of a conflict between the FM and the CotF. More speculatively, the Fist of the First Men seems a particularly ominous site, perhaps because of some connection to the war between men and CotF; there was a great post a year or two ago exploring this idea with some quotes from aCoK that may have been foreshadowing the relationship between the CotF and the Others.

Ah yes, I should have mentioned the caveat that the Andals almost certainly did not come over all at once. Instead I was looking at the trigger of the Long Night being the point at which the Singers realized that the influx of new human immigrants was not going to stop any time soon, especially with the (possibly) contemporary Valyrians giving everyone good cause to flee western Essos in search of refuge. Hell, maybe these crazy winters were set up not only as a tool to keep Westerosi men in line, but also as a deterrent to Valyrian invaders. Definitely requires some re-jiggering of the timelines, but that is one element of the story where I can accept an exposition-based reveal, since it's all just background exposition in the first place.

 

ETA: Thanks @wolfmaid7! I've been a semi-regular reader since around the Centennial Project, just hadn't done enough re-reading at the time to feel like I could contribute to much discussion.

[Matthew.]

5 minutes ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

Ah yes, I should have mentioned the caveat that the Andals almost certainly did not come over all at once. Instead I was looking at the trigger of the Long Night being the point at which the Singers realized that the influx of new human immigrants was not going to stop any time soon, especially with the (possibly) contemporary Valyrians giving everyone good cause to flee western Essos in search of refuge. Hell, maybe these crazy winters were set up not only as a tool to keep Westerosi men in line, but also as a deterrent to Valyrian invaders. Definitely requires some re-jiggering of the timelines, but that is one element of the story where I can accept an exposition-based reveal, since it's all just background exposition in the first place.

Just as an addition to this line of thinking, another aspect of the unreliable timelines that had totally slipped my mind last night was the reference to the Last Hero using a blade of "dragonsteel." Maybe this is just another bit of dubious information, like references to knights at times where there shouldn't have been knights, or maybe there's a deeper significance.

I seem to recall BC posting a GRRM quote that there are some important aspects of dragon lore that men have forgotten; I have no specific theory here, but between the reference to dragonsteel, and the possibility that we might be learning more about the dragons than what we've already been shown, maybe these things are all interrelated in unforeseen ways. There is also that odd little detail of the (seemingly ancient) House Dayne having what we might call Valyrian features.