Police killed at Dallas protest

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

22 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

Except that isn't the discussion we were having.  Scot was expressing the notion that we comply with the orders of police because we fear getting shot.  Which is absurd, utterly reductionist, and totally unsupported.

i doubt very much that when most people get pulled over for speeding that their primary motivation is 'I don't want to get shot'.

And if it is, then that fear is irrational.

That's not at all what Scot said. His direct quote was "The scary part is when I know the order is illegal" Another poster asked why this is scary. 

[Tywin et al.]

24 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

Except that isn't the discussion we were having.  Scot was expressing the notion that we comply with the orders of police because we fear getting shot.  Which is absurd, utterly reductionist, and totally unsupported.

Maybe for a white guy. But black people, specifically young black men, cite the above as the exact reason they comply with police orders. 

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Maybe for a white guy. But black people, specifically young black men, cite the above as the exact reason they comply with police orders. 

Exactly. Yet, no matter how much this is repeated, some people are just completely incapable of placing themselves in another person's shoes. Incapable or unwilling. 

[Swordfish]

20 hours ago, DunderMifflin said:

 

 

[Swordfish]

1 hour ago, DunderMifflin said:

For me depends on if their guns are drawn or not. I've been stopped a few times when they were looking for someone else for something that happened in the neighblrhood and they had guns already drawn by the time I/we had pulled over. And I was pretty frickin scared of being shot.

Well..  Duh... if someone is pointing a gun at you, it's completely rational to fear being shot.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

That's not at all what Scot said. His direct quote was "The scary part is when I know the order is illegal" Another poster asked why this is scary. 

You're wrong.  it started here:

 

 

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Maybe for a white guy. But black people, specifically young black men, cite the above as the exact reason they comply with police orders. 

 

Link?

Nevertheless, as I said, if that is the fear of a majority of young black men, that fear is not justified by the statistics, and is therefor irrational. The likelihood of a young black man being shot at a traffic stop, while unacceptably and disproportionately high, is still quite low overall.

 

1 hour ago, Relic said:

Exactly. Yet, no matter how much this is repeated, some people are just completely incapable of placing themselves in another person's shoes. Incapable or unwilling. 

Oh please....  Take off your white hat and hop down of your white horse  for a second and actually pay attention to what is being written.

 

 

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

6 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

You're wrong.  it started here:

 Okay, fear of being shot was brought up, but you boiled it down to that one factor. I don't think that was the only (or even primary) concern with a cop who has given you an illegal order.

Anyway, I don't think even that counts as an irrational fear at this point. Many police officers have shown somewhat of a proclivity for it of late.  

[DunderMifflin]

8 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

Well..  Duh... if someone is pointing a gun at you, it's completely rational to fear being shot.

 

I don't think you are realizing how often this happens in poorer neighborhoods.

Something such as the corner store gets robbed at gunpoint and everyone in the neighborhood, regardless of race somehow matches the description of the suspect and is treated with complete guns drawn hostility until proven innocent.

Maybe Scot is scared(understandably IMO) or maybe he's just making the point that he can understand why he or anyone else fears being shot and just does what police say due to that fear.

 

[Swordfish]

20 hours ago, DunderMifflin said:

 

Quote

Okay, fear of being shot was brought up, but you boiled it down to that one factor. I don't think that was the only (or even primary) concern with a cop who has given you an illegal order. 

No.  i didn't.  Scot did.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, Swordfish said:

Except that isn't the discussion we were having.  Scot was expressing the notion that we comply with the orders of police because we fear getting shot.  Which is absurd, utterly reductionist, and totally unsupported.

i doubt very much that when most people get pulled over for speeding that their primary motivation is 'I don't want to get shot'.

And if it is, then that fear is irrational.

You decided that "this is the discussion we were having".

It was an aspect of the discussion we were having.

[Swordfish]

1 minute ago, DunderMifflin said:

I don't think you are realizing how often this happens in poorer neighborhood.

Something such as the corner store gets robbed at gunpoint and everyone in the neighborhood, regardless of race somehow matches the description of the suspect and is treated with complete guns drawn hostility until proven innocent.

 

 

I don't see how any of that contradicts what I am saying.  you are adding a qualifire now to exclude cases in which the cops have their guns drawn.  Which..  Duh.

But again, that isn't what we were talking about.

If it makes you feel better i am willing to concede that if the cops have their guns already pointed at you, it's totally rational to be afraid of getting shot.

 

 

[DunderMifflin]

I'm scared of getting shot ANYTIME there is a gun in my immediate presence, regardless of who is carrying it.

Scots claim seems pretty legit to me.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, DunderMifflin said:

I'm scared of getting shot ANYTIME there is a gun in my immediate presence, regardless of who is carrying it.

Scots claim seems pretty legit to me.

Bingo. The second someone with a gun enters your presence, I don't think that fear qualifies as being irrational. It becomes a distinct possibility at that point.

[Tywin et al.]

52 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

Link?

I'm really surprised you would need one, given how this common knowledge. I mean, even Newt Gingrich knows this:

Quote

“It took me a long time, and a number of people talking to me through the years to get a sense of this. If you are a normal, white American, the truth is you don’t understand being black in America and you instinctively under-estimate the level of discrimination and the level of additional risk.

“To the degree you’re an African-American you are raising your teenage boys to be vary careful in obeying the police because literally their lives are at risk and they can see it on television. At the same time, if you’re a normal Caucasian, you don’t see that, that’s not part of your experience. And somehow, we have to be able to have a conversation and a dialogue where the mutual experiences start to say, ‘Gee, if that’s true, under what circumstances can we fix it?’ On both sides.”

http://uproxx.com/news/newt-gingrich-race-america/

54 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

Nevertheless, as I said, if that is the fear of a majority of young black men, that fear is not justified by the statistics, and is therefor irrational. The likelihood of a young black man being shot at a traffic stop, while unacceptably and disproportionately high, is still quite low overall.

If you had said this originally I wouldn't have said anything. It's fair to question if it's irrational fear and/or if it's overblown, but to deny it's existence would be a mistake. 

[Kalbear]

While it's reasonable to say that the chances of being shot are lower, per the study that came out recently the chances of being violently assaulted by police or charged for crimes that they did not commit (such as failure to comply with an illegal order) is much higher for black and hispanics compared to whites. 

So yeah ,as long as you only fear being shot and don't fear being sent to prison for crimes you didn't commit or fear having a heart attack after being tased and left with brain damage, you should be fine. 

[Swordfish]

1 hour ago, DunderMifflin said:

I'm scared of getting shot ANYTIME there is a gun in my immediate presence, regardless of who is carrying it.

Scots claim seems pretty legit to me.

That's certainly your perogative, but that fear is irrational.

 

58 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I'm really surprised you would need one, given how this common knowledge. I mean, even Newt Gingrich knows this:

http://uproxx.com/news/newt-gingrich-race-america/

 

I don't see anything in that link that indicates whether the majority of young black amles comply with cops because theya re afraid of getting shot.

 

Quote

If you had said this originally I wouldn't have said anything. It's fair to question if it's irrational fear and/or if it's overblown, but

 

I did say it originally. 

 

Quote

to deny it's existence would be a mistake. 

I haven't denied it exists. 

 

[DunderMifflin]

3 hours ago, Swordfish said:

That's certainly your perogative, but that fear is irrational.

 

Agree to disagree I guess.

This implies that a person thinking rationally has ZERO fear of being shot by police when pulled over. I don't find it very rational to have no fear of the possibility of something terrible happening.

It is irrational to fear any sort terrorism by this standard, even if you are in France.

[Swordfish]

5 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Agree to disagree I guess.

This implies that a person thinking rationally has ZERO fear of being shot by police when pulled over. I don't find it rational to have no fear of the possibility of something terrible happening.

Is it irrational to fear any sort terrorism by this standard, even if you are in France.

Perhaps we have a different definition of the word 'scared'.

[DunderMifflin]

6 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

Perhaps we have a different definition of the word 'scared'.

nervous? afraid? fearful? alarmed? intimidated? 

this seems to be hair splitting territory now

[Swordfish]

4 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

nervous? afraid? fearful? alarmed? intimidated? 

this seems to be hair splitting territory now

I don't even know what you're trying to argue at this point.

[DunderMifflin]

That it may not be completely irrational to have a fear of being shot when a person with a gun is addressing you.