If Lyanna is already married to Robert before HH tourney, will this make difference?

[the trees have eyes]

5 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

it sounds like rhaegar is so innocent. "you know nothing, rhaegar targaryen" , right? 

the fact is, Aerys is not suddenly mad from that day brandon ran into KL. he is cruel and crazy for quite a while, so much so that even rhaegar was planning to depose him. and rhaegar knew how serious a betroth between great houses is, and he knows lyanna is his cousin's bride. 

with these conditions, he is literally calling a war. this is not a stable boy who ran away with a servant girl, OK? there is very small chance that it can be settled peacefully. if rhaegar is willing to bet aerys and stark and barathoen can sit down and shake hands and fix it peacefully, then he is a giant idiot. 

even as you said, rhaegar did not expect any of these. then why hide for one year? did it take one year for him to know what happened in KL? why not come back to his duties earlier? only reason is that he wanted to enjoy his time with lyanna. 

rhaegar is leading 40000 men to fight with rebels. ned and robert are leaders. of course they will fight until the very end! it is so naive to say, oh, maybe rhaegar is planning to spare ned! do you think he sent out a secret order: hey, nobody should hurt ned stark?

he is ready to kill ned, just like he is ready to kill an quite innocent Robert. rhaegar is evil in this case. he stole robert's lawful bride and now he tried to kill Robert. rhaegar well deserved that hammer on his chest.

Innocent?  I quite clearly said he was wrong in that he could manage the consequences of his and Lyanna's actions.  Where I disagree is that he or anyone could have foreseen that Brandon and Aerys would inflame the situation so recklessly.  Does this mean Rhaegar was not himself reckless or taking risks in eloping with Lyanna?  No.  But I fundamentally disagree with your continuing assertion that Rhaegar was as good as calling / starting the war.  That happened after Aerys murdered Brandon and Rickard not after Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped.  I know which event I consider the point of no return and its not Rhaegar running off with Lyanna, it's the murder of two noblemen and the call for the murder of two more.

Sure, Aerys was unstable and paranoid after Duskendale but he punished the Darklins for kidnapping and insulting his person.  What harm had Brandon really done other than uttering a few threats for which he could have been otherwise punished after showing contrition?  What had Rickard done to be roasted alive other than plead for his son's life?  Hindsight is nice but Rhaegar could not have predicted these actions.  He expected to keep Lyanna out of sight and harm's way until he had a chance to smooth over the situation not for Aerys to start a major civil war.

Why didn't Rhaegar come back earlier?  I would say that clearly he was out of favour with his father before the Lyanna affair, even at odds with him and Aerys was relying on the likes of Merrywether and Jon Connington as Hands.  It was only when the rebellion seemed to be more successful and a genuine risk that Aerys and Rhaegar were somewhat reconciled and able / willing to work together.

Rhaegar intends to kill Ned does he?  You know the taking of hostages and highborn prisoners on the battlefield is a remarkably common practice in the books as it was in medieval warfare.  You asserted that Rhaegar tried to kill Ned.  This is absolutely not the case.  No one killed Balon Greyjoy during his rebellion and Robb very sensibly kept Jaime Lannister alive as a valuable hostage and bargaining chip.  Indeed Ned has a rather high opinion of Rhaegar which is odd if he is this evil character you insit he is, determined to kill the Starks and happily causing the kingdom to burn as long as he can have his way with Lyanna.

All I am really taking away from your argument is that you are projecting a strong dislike of "evil" Rhaegar and alleging that he tried to kill Ned and wipe out Lyanna's family, neither of which comes from the books.  You are free to interpret things the way you choose but only Robert B hated Rhaegar, everyone else seemd to have a high opinion of him.  I know whose judgment I prefer to rely on here and it's not Bob "I see only dragonspawn" / "that bastard stole my woman, shhh, don't mention all those bastards I've been siring and all those other chicks I banged like the whole brothel at the battle of the bells".

5 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

lyanna is weeping, cersei is weeping, whole house of griff are weeping at rhaegar's songs. 

what is big deal then? 

The big deal is that Lyanna found it romantic which seems the whole point of giving us this scene before the two of them disappear together in mysterious circumstances.  Make of it what you will but it's there for us to consider.

[purple-eyes]

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Innocent?  I quite clearly said he was wrong in that he could manage the consequences of his and Lyanna's actions.  Where I disagree is that he or anyone could have foreseen that Brandon and Aerys would inflame the situation so recklessly.  Does this mean Rhaegar was not himself reckless or taking risks in eloping with Lyanna?  No.  But I fundamentally disagree with your continuing assertion that Rhaegar was as good as calling / starting the war.  That happened after Aerys murdered Brandon and Rickard not after Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped.  I know which event I consider the point of no return and its not Rhaegar running off with Lyanna, it's the murder of two noblemen and the call for the murder of two more.

Sure, Aerys was unstable and paranoid after Duskendale but he punished the Darklins for kidnapping and insulting his person.  What harm had Brandon really done other than uttering a few threats for which he could have been otherwise punished after showing contrition?  What had Rickard done to be roasted alive other than plead for his son's life?  Hindsight is nice but Rhaegar could not have predicted these actions.  He expected to keep Lyanna out of sight and harm's way until he had a chance to smooth over the situation not for Aerys to start a major civil war.

Why didn't Rhaegar come back earlier?  I would say that clearly he was out of favour with his father before the Lyanna affair, even at odds with him and Aerys was relying on the likes of Merrywether and Jon Connington as Hands.  It was only when the rebellion seemed to be more successful and a genuine risk that Aerys and Rhaegar were somewhat reconciled and able / willing to work together.

Rhaegar intends to kill Ned does he?  You know the taking of hostages and highborn prisoners on the battlefield is a remarkably common practice in the books as it was in medieval warfare.  You asserted that Rhaegar tried to kill Ned.  This is absolutely not the case.  No one killed Balon Greyjoy during his rebellion and Robb very sensibly kept Jaime Lannister alive as a valuable hostage and bargaining chip.  Indeed Ned has a rather high opinion of Rhaegar which is odd if he is this evil character you insit he is, determined to kill the Starks and happily causing the kingdom to burn as long as he can have his way with Lyanna.

All I am really taking away from your argument is that you are projecting a strong dislike of "evil" Rhaegar and alleging that he tried to kill Ned and wipe out Lyanna's family, neither of which comes from the books.  You are free to interpret things the way you choose but only Robert B hated Rhaegar, everyone else seemd to have a high opinion of him.  I know whose judgment I prefer to rely on here and it's not Bob "I see only dragonspawn" / "that bastard stole my woman, shhh, don't mention all those bastards I've been siring and all those other chicks I banged like the whole brothel at the battle of the bells".

The big deal is that Lyanna found it romantic which seems the whole point of giving us this scene before the two of them disappear together in mysterious circumstances.  Make of it what you will but it's there for us to consider.

interesting. so according to what you said, rhaegar was at odds with his daddy therefore he chose to hide for one year with his woman and let his country burn as a hell and his own two young children in risk? such a chick. he should stand out as early as he can to face the mess he left, not hide in the love nest in his wife's homeland. 

Brandon committed a treason by storming into Red Keep and shouting the crown prince to die. Aerys has every reason to arrest him and also summon Rickard. you seem to use current standards to judge these things in that era, which is wrong. it is indeed cruel to kill all of them but Brandon was not completely innocent. 

I said rhaegar is evil in this case,  by which i mean rhaegar stole Robert's lawful bride and then tried to kill him. of course this is evil! a man not only stole another's man's fiancee, but also tried to kill this man, isn't this a big crime? so just because this man is rhaegar, then it is not a crime? 

 

 

[the trees have eyes]

15 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

interesting. so according to what you said, rhaegar was at odds with his daddy therefore he chose to hide for one year with his woman and let his country burn as a hell and his own two young children in risk? such a chick. he should stand out as early as he can to face the mess he left, not hide in the love nest in his wife's homeland. 

Brandon committed a treason by storming into Red Keep and shouting the crown prince to die. Aerys has every reason to arrest him and also summon Rickard. you seem to use current standards to judge these things in that era, which is wrong. it is indeed cruel to kill all of them but Brandon was not completely innocent. 

I said rhaegar is evil in this case,  by which i mean rhaegar stole Robert's lawful bride and then tried to kill him. of course this is evil! a man not only stole another's man's fiancee, but also tried to kill this man, isn't this a big crime? so just because this man is rhaegar, then it is not a crime? 

 

 

In the books Aerys's growing paranoia extended to include Rhaegar.  Except it was actually probably well founded as from what we know Rhaegar had planned to hold a Great Council to remove Aerys from power.  So, yes I think it's correct to say they were at odds.  We don't really know how Rhaegar spent his time until he returned to KL other than that he spent some of it with Lyanna but we do know that 1) Rhaegar and Aerys were at odds and Aerys relied on the likes of Connington and Merryweather until the situation was grave enough for him to rehabilitate Rhaegar, 2) Rhaegar would not want to let Aerys get his hands on Lyanna given what had happened to Brandon and Rickard and how Aerys might have used her against Robert so it makes sense for him to remain away from Court / KL and 3) Rhaegar and Aerys probably blamed each other to some extent for the rebellion and both would be justifed to an extent in their point of view but Rhaegar did reforge his relationship with his father to some extent and return to lead the royal army when the rebellion seemed to be a serious threat. 

The Rhaegar we are presented with in the books was about "duty" not some debauchee who fiddled while Rome / the kingdom burned from a fire he started.  If you can get past your dislike of your interpretation of the man you can see why he stayed away from KL until Aerys recalled him and then he went striaght into the leadership role you wanted him to from the get-go.

I think the fundamental point we disagree on was whether Aerys or Rhaegar was to blame for the rebellion and Rhaegar seems to get your scorn and hate - "evil" is how you describe him - while it is Aerys who gets mine.  Again, why do Barristan, Ned and Jorah all seem to hold such a high opinion of Rhaegar?

Brandon did indeed commit treason but although he called for Rhaegar to come out and die he did not actually raise his hand against anyone, Rhaegar not after all being in KL.  Another man than Aerys would have handled that situation very differently, not to say roasting Rickard alive was monstrous.  Rhaegar is Gavrilo Princip to some extent: his actions had profound repercussions but he did not choose to start the war, it was the actions of others that did.

So now Rhaegar tried to kill Robert as well as Ned did he?  Please tell me where this happened.  Aerys ordered Robert and Ned's executions not Rhaegar.  Rhaegar led crown forces in battle against a rebel host and he and Robert fought on the Trident in single combat.  How is this evil?  If one is evil so is the other.  And Robert complained bitterly that Rhaegar stole his finacee whom he claimed to love so much, yet he shagged every girl in a brothel at Stony Sept while he was apparently heartbroken over her disappearance so maybe its about Robert's pride and his right to possess more than anything else. 

If Rhaegar and Lyanna had feelings for each other and she eloped with him consensually would you still be so eager to call Rhaegar evil?

[WSmith84]

35 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

In the books Aerys's growing paranoia extended to include Rhaegar.  Except it was actually probably well founded as from what we know Rhaegar had planned to hold a Great Council to remove Aerys from power.  So, yes I think it's correct to say they were at odds.  We don't really know how Rhaegar spent his time until he returned to KL other than that he spent some of it with Lyanna but we do know that 1) Rhaegar and Aerys were at odds and Aerys relied on the likes of Connington and Merryweather until the situation was grave enough for him to rehabilitate Rhaegar, 2) Rhaegar would not want to let Aerys get his hands on Lyanna given what had happened to Brandon and Rickard and how Aerys might have used her against Robert so it makes sense for him to remain away from Court / KL and 3) Rhaegar and Aerys probably blamed each other to some extent for the rebellion and both would be justifed to an extent in their point of view but Rhaegar did reforge his relationship with his father to some extent and return to lead the royal army when the rebellion seemed to be a serious threat. 

The Rhaegar we are presented with in the books was about "duty" not some debauchee who fiddled while Rome / the kingdom burned from a fire he started.  If you can get past your dislike of your interpretation of the man you can see why he stayed away from KL until Aerys recalled him and then he went striaght into the leadership role you wanted him to from the get-go.

I think the fundamental point we disagree on was whether Aerys or Rhaegar was to blame for the rebellion and Rhaegar seems to get your scorn and hate - "evil" is how you describe him - while it is Aerys who gets mine.  Again, why do Barristan, Ned and Jorah all seem to hold such a high opinion of Rhaegar?

Brandon did indeed commit treason but although he called for Rhaegar to come out and die he did not actually raise his hand against anyone, Rhaegar not after all being in KL.  Another man than Aerys would have handled that situation very differently, not to say roasting Rickard alive was monstrous.  Rhaegar is Gavrilo Princip to some extent: his actions had profound repercussions but he did not choose to start the war, it was the actions of others that did.

So now Rhaegar tried to kill Robert as well as Ned did he?  Please tell me where this happened.  Aerys ordered Robert and Ned's executions not Rhaegar.  Rhaegar led crown forces in battle against a rebel host and he and Robert fought on the Trident in single combat.  How is this evil?  If one is evil so is the other.  And Robert complained bitterly that Rhaegar stole his finacee whom he claimed to love so much, yet he shagged every girl in a brothel at Stony Sept while he was apparently heartbroken over her disappearance so maybe its about Robert's pride and his right to possess more than anything else. 

If Rhaegar and Lyanna had feelings for each other and she eloped with him consensually would you still be so eager to call Rhaegar evil?

Aerys might have been suspicious of Rhaegar and Rhaegar may not have been entirely safe if he went back to King's Landing, but it does seem jolly bad form to stay completely absent whilst your father is trying to murder your lover's family (after already murdering two of them). Now, we don't know how in-the-loop Rhaegar was, so his absence may have been justified - although I would argue that putting Westeros in a volatile situation and then going into hiding in such a way that keeps you out-of-the-loop is fairly irresponsible.

All in all, I would say that there is too much information to be revealed about R+L for us to accurately say anything right now. However, my personal opinion is that Rhaegar and Lyanna are going to come out of this looking, at the least, foolish. Tragic, but foolish. I can't see him coming out looking like the untarnished silver prince.

[Lady Lia]

Additional data on age at marriage:

Maidens may be wedded and bedded... however, even there, many husbands will wait until the bride is fifteen or sixteen before sleeping with them. Very young mothers tend to have significantly higher rates of death in childbirth, which the maesters will have noted.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1050/ for the full quote. In short, yes, a girl can be married at fourteen or younger, and yes, it's also common to wait. (The childbirth issue would be particularly relevant when the prospective husband is a big man likely to father big children.)

[A spoon of knife and fork]

20 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

what nonsense? Renly is gay, Edmure soon got married after death of his daddy. Willas is not a ruling LP and he is a crippled guy.

Give me one example that a 20 something ruling LP (without heirs) did not get married as soon as he can.  

Robert had two perfectly good heirs - Renly and Stannis.  Renly is even young enough to be Robert's son so is very likely to outlive him.  Robert is not desperate for a wife/heir. 

The fact is, 14 is unusually young to marry in the world of Westeros.  It's not illegal, but It's demonstrated repeatedly to be far more typical to marry at 16-20.  The burden is therefore on you to prove why it's so desperately necessary that Lyanna and Robert marry when she's barely flowered.  

[purple-eyes]

6 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Robert had two perfectly good heirs - Renly and Stannis.  Renly is even young enough to be Robert's son so is very likely to outlive him.  Robert is not desperate for a wife/heir. 

The fact is, 14 is unusually young to marry in the world of Westeros.  It's not illegal, but It's demonstrated repeatedly to be far more typical to marry at 16-20.  The burden is therefore on you to prove why it's so desperately necessary that Lyanna and Robert marry when she's barely flowered.  

you must be kidding on that heir issue. a nobleman always has some kind of heirs, brothers, cousins, distant cousins, but he still needs his own son. Briefly, Robert definately needs his own wife and son, even when he has two brothers. 

i already provided the reason. Robert is already a ruling LP and storm's end does not have a first lady. how many leaders of countries pr kingdoms have you seen who are single without spouses when they rule? 

 

[purple-eyes]

6 hours ago, Lady Lia said:

Additional data on age at marriage:

Maidens may be wedded and bedded... however, even there, many husbands will wait until the bride is fifteen or sixteen before sleeping with them. Very young mothers tend to have significantly higher rates of death in childbirth, which the maesters will have noted.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1050/ for the full quote. In short, yes, a girl can be married at fourteen or younger, and yes, it's also common to wait. (The childbirth issue would be particularly relevant when the prospective husband is a big man likely to father big children.)

so yes, it looks like robert can wait for lyanna to reach 16 to marry her. but rhaegar can not wait. he flirted with lyanna when she was 14 and took Lyanna to bed when she was 14-15 and made her birth a child (and die) at 16. 

 

 

[purple-eyes]

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

In the books Aerys's growing paranoia extended to include Rhaegar.  Except it was actually probably well founded as from what we know Rhaegar had planned to hold a Great Council to remove Aerys from power.  So, yes I think it's correct to say they were at odds.  We don't really know how Rhaegar spent his time until he returned to KL other than that he spent some of it with Lyanna but we do know that 1) Rhaegar and Aerys were at odds and Aerys relied on the likes of Connington and Merryweather until the situation was grave enough for him to rehabilitate Rhaegar, 2) Rhaegar would not want to let Aerys get his hands on Lyanna given what had happened to Brandon and Rickard and how Aerys might have used her against Robert so it makes sense for him to remain away from Court / KL and 3) Rhaegar and Aerys probably blamed each other to some extent for the rebellion and both would be justifed to an extent in their point of view but Rhaegar did reforge his relationship with his father to some extent and return to lead the royal army when the rebellion seemed to be a serious threat. 

The Rhaegar we are presented with in the books was about "duty" not some debauchee who fiddled while Rome / the kingdom burned from a fire he started.  If you can get past your dislike of your interpretation of the man you can see why he stayed away from KL until Aerys recalled him and then he went striaght into the leadership role you wanted him to from the get-go.

I think the fundamental point we disagree on was whether Aerys or Rhaegar was to blame for the rebellion and Rhaegar seems to get your scorn and hate - "evil" is how you describe him - while it is Aerys who gets mine.  Again, why do Barristan, Ned and Jorah all seem to hold such a high opinion of Rhaegar?

Brandon did indeed commit treason but although he called for Rhaegar to come out and die he did not actually raise his hand against anyone, Rhaegar not after all being in KL.  Another man than Aerys would have handled that situation very differently, not to say roasting Rickard alive was monstrous.  Rhaegar is Gavrilo Princip to some extent: his actions had profound repercussions but he did not choose to start the war, it was the actions of others that did.

So now Rhaegar tried to kill Robert as well as Ned did he?  Please tell me where this happened.  Aerys ordered Robert and Ned's executions not Rhaegar.  Rhaegar led crown forces in battle against a rebel host and he and Robert fought on the Trident in single combat.  How is this evil?  If one is evil so is the other.  And Robert complained bitterly that Rhaegar stole his finacee whom he claimed to love so much, yet he shagged every girl in a brothel at Stony Sept while he was apparently heartbroken over her disappearance so maybe its about Robert's pride and his right to possess more than anything else. 

If Rhaegar and Lyanna had feelings for each other and she eloped with him consensually would you still be so eager to call Rhaegar evil?

Rhaegar is evil on this matter because he stole somebody's lawful bride and also tried to kill this man. no matter if he and lyanna are in love or not, this is wrong. he should have apologized and tried to make compensation with Robert, not tried to kill lyanna's innocent fiancee. what is the difference between him and aerys on this matter? one is asking robert's head and one is trying to kill robert by his own hands? what wrong did Robert do except he can not make Lyanna love him? 

 

[OuttaOldtown]

5 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Rhaegar is evil on this matter because he stole somebody's lawful bride and also tried to kill this man. no matter if he and lyanna are in love or not, this is wrong. he should have apologized and tried to make compensation with Robert, not tried to kill lyanna's innocent fiancee. what is the difference between him and aerys on this matter? one is asking robert's head and one is trying to kill robert by his own hands? what wrong did Robert do except he can not make Lyanna love him? 

 

Oh, so she's Robert's property, I understand now. When you put it this way I respect her even more for not marrying the disgusting oaf..

[Golden Eyes]

On 8/1/2016 at 3:45 PM, purple-eyes said:

Robert was like 20 something at HH, a perfect age for marriage and also he is already the ruling LP of Stormlands which indeed requires him to have a lady wife as soon as possible. In fact, I am suprised he has not married Lyanna yet. It did not make much sense honestly. the only reason I can think about it is that GRRM did not want to copy Troy so much or he wants to "whitewash" his dreamlover Lyanna. 

So let us imagine Lyanna was already married, she travelled to HH with her husband and brothet. she still played as mystery knight and met her silver prince. 

do you think Rhaegar and Lyanna would still do what they did? crowning, eloping, hiding? 

 

So I guess you hate the author or whatevr? How can you hate the author when he gave us such amazing characters like my silver queen Danaerys?

Anyway. I don't think Robert would have been happy for too long anyway because he seems like the guy who is always looking for more. That would make Lyanna sad and wishful for other dudes. If it dont happen at the tourneys then it will happen at anothe time anyways.

[the trees have eyes]

On 03/08/2016 at 8:41 PM, WSmith84 said:

Aerys might have been suspicious of Rhaegar and Rhaegar may not have been entirely safe if he went back to King's Landing, but it does seem jolly bad form to stay completely absent whilst your father is trying to murder your lover's family (after already murdering two of them). Now, we don't know how in-the-loop Rhaegar was, so his absence may have been justified - although I would argue that putting Westeros in a volatile situation and then going into hiding in such a way that keeps you out-of-the-loop is fairly irresponsible.

All in all, I would say that there is too much information to be revealed about R+L for us to accurately say anything right now. However, my personal opinion is that Rhaegar and Lyanna are going to come out of this looking, at the least, foolish. Tragic, but foolish. I can't see him coming out looking like the untarnished silver prince.

Oh, Rhaegar and Lyanna is definitely a tragedy, imo.  I don't disagree with what you said and I would like GRRM to give us a good explanation for Rhaegar's actions.  Perhaps we won't get one but I hope we will.  I would say that after Brandon's arrest for treason it would not be apparent to Rhaegar that Rickard would fail to plead for his son's life or that Aerys would kill both of them.  Once he had and called for Ned's head it doesn't really seem that there is much he can do.  Ned is in the Vale and under Jon Arryn's protection and he heads to WF to call his banners.  Again there doesn't seem much Rhaegar can do about that except try to moderate Aerys's behaviour and orchestrate a peace.  Why he didn't or if he and Aerys were too estranged to be able to even talk about strategy or listen to each other at this point may be the answer.  Or everyone from Barristan to Ned could be wrong about the dutiful prince and he did not give a damn after all but that seems the least likely scenario to me.

On 03/08/2016 at 8:47 PM, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Robert had two perfectly good heirs - Renly and Stannis.  Renly is even young enough to be Robert's son so is very likely to outlive him.  Robert is not desperate for a wife/heir. 

The fact is, 14 is unusually young to marry in the world of Westeros.  It's not illegal, but It's demonstrated repeatedly to be far more typical to marry at 16-20.  The burden is therefore on you to prove why it's so desperately necessary that Lyanna and Robert marry when she's barely flowered.  

Robert may well want to marry and have an heir but I can see no reason for Rickard to push Lyanna into marrying so young.  In any case as you say Robert is not an only male child so he has two male Barratheon heirs - something ACOK should make clear to everyone - so it is not essential that he push a 15 year old into marriage and childbirth at all.  A few years down the line is indeed the norm.

As a matter of interest BBC4 replayed a very good documentary about the wars of the Roses the other night.  Edmund Tudor, father to the future Henry VII, married his ward Margaret Beaufort when she was 12.  He knocked her up pretty much immediately before being captured in battle and dying in captivity leaving a 13 year old widow who was 7 months pregnant.  Contemporaries were scandalized that he abused his position this way and both Magaret and her child, Henry, nearly died in childbirth due to her small size and youth.  Despite being married twice more after Edmund's death she never had another child.  14 is indeed pretty damn young for the medieval period.

22 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

so yes, it looks like robert can wait for lyanna to reach 16 to marry her. but rhaegar can not wait. he flirted with lyanna when she was 14 and took Lyanna to bed when she was 14-15 and made her birth a child (and die) at 16.

Wait.  In your opinion you find it odd that Robert had not already married Lyanna because he was so desperate for an heir and yet Rhaegar, the prophecy-driven prince who thought he had to save the world by siring one more child was a monster for eloping with her?

22 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Rhaegar is evil on this matter because he stole somebody's lawful bride and also tried to kill this man. no matter if he and lyanna are in love or not, this is wrong. he should have apologized and tried to make compensation with Robert, not tried to kill lyanna's innocent fiancee. what is the difference between him and aerys on this matter? one is asking robert's head and one is trying to kill robert by his own hands? what wrong did Robert do except he can not make Lyanna love him?

If you actually go back to my first post you'll realise that I said I do not consider it likely that Rhaegar would have eloped with Lyanna if she had been married.  This is a pretty important point because Lyanna was not Robert's bride.  The Barratheons and Starks had made a marriage pact much like the Starks and Lannisters and Starks and Freys in our story but that doesn't make anyone husband and wife, again as our story clearly shows us.  Lyanna and Robert may not have married for years.  They don't even seem to have know each other all that well.  You seem to approach this as if Rhaegar kidnapped Robert's wife of 5 years rather than eloping with an unmarried although not unpledged woman.  It breaks societal taboos indeed but Lyanna is no one's lawful bride, she is a 15/16 year old girl who is lukewarm about the man her father has decided she will marry when she is older.

Also I am tired of saying it but Rhaegar did not try and kill Robert.  That was Aerys.  When the fighting broke out there was a chance that either man would die in battle or, as indeed happened at the Trident, that one would kill the other.  This is warfare I'm afraid but the way you talk about it is as if Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and then tried to hunt down and kill Robert to ensure he got away with his dastardly crime.  This simply isn't what happened.  If anything as the books make abundantly clear Robert had an abiding hatred of Targaryens and a determination to kill Rhaegar, telling Ned that he is glad he drove his warhammer's spike through "that bastard's black heart" [sic] and when presented with the bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon, Rhaegar's innocent children you know, saying he did not see murdered children only dead "dragonspawn".  Odd isn't it that Ned, whose brother and father were murdered by Aerys and whose sister was taken by Rhaegar was appalled by these actions but Robert's bloodthirst was roused and not yet sated.  Almost as if, counter to what you claim, it was Robert who was determined to kill Rhaegar and his innocent family.  After all that is one of the reasons Ned kept Jon's identity secret - he could not trust how Robert would act around any child of Rhaegar's.

I may be misreading you but you seem to regard Robert and Lyanna as a great love affair that was ripped apart by Rhaegar's selfish and capricious actions.  This is certainly Robert's view of things but I'm not sure who else agrees.  It seems the romance and the tragedy involved Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

17 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Oh, so she's Robert's property, I understand now. When you put it this way I respect her even more for not marrying the disgusting oaf..

Hardly an oaf, the man has one of the highest military IQ's in history

Not Robert's, she was Rickard´s property, as Ned was before he came of age... yeah, medieval times are a bitch i know

If she escaped willingly, then she got her family butchered and herself killed with no adult life whatsoever...

Respect her wildness or courage but not her intelligence, it's lacking even for a 14 year old

[OuttaOldtown]

1 minute ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Hardly an oaf, the man has one of the highest military IQ's in history

Not Robert's, she was Rickard´s property, as Ned was before he came of age... yeah, medieval times are a bitch i know

If she escaped willingly, then she got her family butchered and herself killed with no adult life whatsoever...

Respect her wildness or courage but not her intelligence, it's lacking even for a 14 year old

Every Bsratheon in the story is a moronic halfwit, and the Drunk King was the worst of all, I think she was in the right to get as far from him as possible.. 

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

10 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Every Bsratheon in the story is a moronic halfwit, and the Drunk King was the worst of all, I think she was in the right to get as far from him as possible.. 

If you think she did well fine by me, but describing Robert, Stannis and Renly as halfwits is interpreting the books wrong i'm afraid...

Two of them are on a very shortlist of most successfull military commanders in history, Renly was a politician and master of laws at 20 years of age with communication skills far above most educated people in westeros... we need to think about other houses for non-intelligent members because the Baratheons, in this books at least, surely aren´t... if they are, then the other houses have brain-dead members around often

[WSmith84]

9 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Oh, Rhaegar and Lyanna is definitely a tragedy, imo.  I don't disagree with what you said and I would like GRRM to give us a good explanation for Rhaegar's actions.  Perhaps we won't get one but I hope we will.  I would say that after Brandon's arrest for treason it would not be apparent to Rhaegar that Rickard would fail to plead for his son's life or that Aerys would kill both of them.  Once he had and called for Ned's head it doesn't really seem that there is much he can do.  Ned is in the Vale and under Jon Arryn's protection and he heads to WF to call his banners.  Again there doesn't seem much Rhaegar can do about that except try to moderate Aerys's behaviour and orchestrate a peace.  Why he didn't or if he and Aerys were too estranged to be able to even talk about strategy or listen to each other at this point may be the answer.  Or everyone from Barristan to Ned could be wrong about the dutiful prince and he did not give a damn after all but that seems the least likely scenario to me.

To me aswell. I can certainly buy a dutiful man forsaking his duty for love and it ending in tragedy, or something to do with prophecy or whatnot, but Rhaegar the evil rapist I don't buy for an instant. Nor do I buy that Rhaegar didn't care. There's just too much that isn't known yet.

I think it would be a very realistic to most that Aerys might kill Brandon for doing what he did; Brandon did, after all, threaten the Crown Prince so Aerys had a reason, even if it was morally and practically wrong. Factor in Aerys' madness and Brandon's death is not a bad bet. Which is why I think Rhaegar probably didn't know about Brandon's actions until Aerys had already murdered him. Or he found out too late to return and stop it.

One thing I am puzzled by is that we never hear of any peace offer from Rhaegar before the Trident. Perhaps it would have been futile and, depending on how much Ned and co. knew about the circumstances of R+L, maybe even insulting, but considering Lyanna's brother was with the rebels and she had already lost her father and brother it seems a little weird that an attempt wasn't made. Perhaps it was and we just didn't hear about it, but that seems a strange omission.

[OuttaOldtown]

1 minute ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

If you think she did well fine by me, but describing Robert, Stannis and Renly as halfwits is interpreting the books wrong i'm afraid...

Two of them are on a very shortlist of most successfull military commanders in history, Renly was a politician and master of laws at 20 years of age with communication skills far above most educated people in westeros... we need to think about other houses for non-intelligent members because the Baratheons, in this books at least, surely aren´t... if they are, then the other houses have brain-dead members around preety often

Spare me the overrating, I've heard it all and buy none if it. Robert was a poor King, Stannis is not the commander his fan base wish he was & Renley was a peacock destined for nothing. May their house perish. And if you think Robert was a good match for Lyanna it's you who has poor reading comprehension. I'm always on the side of breaking traditions and free will, sadly most of the fan base share your view of conformity and arranged marriages..

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

20 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Spare me the overrating, I've heard it all and buy none if it. Robert was a poor King, Stannis is not the commander his fan base wish he was & Renley was a peacock destined for nothing. May their house perish. And if you think Robert was a good match for Lyanna it's you who has poor reading comprehension. I'm always on the side of breaking traditions and free will, sadly most of the fan base share your view of conformity and arranged marriages..

Let's clear some thoughts...

- I never said Robert was a good match for Lyanna or vice-versa

- Being a poor king has nothing to do with Robert's very, very high military IQ

- Stannis is one of the greatest commanders in history, by book feats not by fanbase opinion (even Tywin puts him above Robb, Tarly (Renly) and Balon put together, the old lion has a good amount of knowledge)

- Renly was highly intelligent for his age, by his position and accurate reading of the game, aswell as PR skills

- Sadly this is a medieval europe style story, so arranged marriages are part of it, we need to differentiate periods of human history, it would be pretty fine if she did that in the 21century, in her time it was dangerous for others AND for her

- Lyanna died at 14 knowing her father and brother died because of her (if she ran willingly), not a good way of departing a short life

 

[Wall Flower]

6 hours ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Let's clear some thoughts...

- I never said Robert was a good match for Lyanna or vice-versa

- Being a poor king has nothing to do with Robert's very, very high military IQ

- Stannis is one of the greatest commanders in history, by book feats not by fanbase opinion (even Tywin puts him above Robb, Tarly (Renly) and Balon put together, the old lion has a good amount of knowledge)

- Renly was highly intelligent for his age, by his position and accurate reading of the game, aswell as PR skills

- Sadly this is a medieval europe style story, so arranged marriages are part of it, we need to differentiate periods of human history, it would be pretty fine if she did that in the 21century, in her time it was dangerous for others AND for her

- Lyanna died at 14 knowing her father and brother died because of her (if she ran willingly), not a good way of departing a short life

 

Lyanna was 16 when she died. I agree that if she had had a copy of Game of Thrones on her bedside table at Winterfell, she would likely have chosen to marry Robert (however reluctantly).

Robert was a charismatic and talented military leader but not cut out for ruling at all and poor husband material. I actually like Stannis despite his flaws and less than winning personality but I wouldn't want to be married to him. Being married to Renly might be ok if I were Loras. Renly's smart but also spoiled, entitled and unscrupulous. if you put all three in a centrifuge, you might be able to extract one good king who people would actually want to follow.

Ned seems to have idolised young Robert (Nedbert forever) because he appeared to have the qualities that Westerosi men admire. However, from the little info we have, Robert didn't look so good through Lyanna's eyes. You're right in saying that nobody cared about Lyanna's opinion but maybe they should have, given the way things turned out.

If Lyanna had already been married at Harrenhall - maybe if she were a couple of years older - I doubt that she would have had the chance to impress Rhaegar with her jousting skills and I suspect that is the reason he named her Queen of Love and Beauty. However, Rhaegar and Robert were cousins and paths would have crossed over time. Unhappy, resentful young wives might still find themselves attracted to handsome princes.

[OuttaOldtown]

19 hours ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Let's clear some thoughts...

- I never said Robert was a good match for Lyanna or vice-versa

- Being a poor king has nothing to do with Robert's very, very high military IQ

- Stannis is one of the greatest commanders in history, by book feats not by fanbase opinion (even Tywin puts him above Robb, Tarly (Renly) and Balon put together, the old lion has a good amount of knowledge)

- Renly was highly intelligent for his age, by his position and accurate reading of the game, aswell as PR skills

- Sadly this is a medieval europe style story, so arranged marriages are part of it, we need to differentiate periods of human history, it would be pretty fine if she did that in the 21century, in her time it was dangerous for others AND for her

- Lyanna died at 14 knowing her father and brother died because of her (if she ran willingly), not a good way of departing a short life

 

Spare me the military IQ nonsense, he could lift a warhammer and a bottle of win, that's what Robert did. There a handful of so-called good battle commanders in the story, Stannis being one of them, he lost at BW and won at the wall, when the odds were in his favor he won. He mishandled quite a bit leading up to Blackwater. Renley got on the small council because he's the Kings brother, never happens otherwise. I instantly hated all three from first into and every Barathron in the history of Westeros. I find it amusing that all blame for Roberts Rebellion falls on Lyanna, the guy started a civil war over a broken marriage pact, and it wasn't the first time, another asshole named the laughing storm started a rebellion over his daughter being pushed aside by Duncan Targaryen. Such a sensitive lot, for having a tough reputation they proved to have pretty thin skin when things didn't go their way. I don't mourn Brandon Stark, hotheaded idiot, you'd think he was a dirty lowlife Batatheon. 

Some people hate dragons, I hate stags..