Is There Anything On The Show That You Think Is Better Than The Books?

[Cron]

1 hour ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

Well I'm not an expert on prophecies and I've to refresh my memory in that area. I've been absent from the fandom for a couple of years and it has been two years since my last complete re-read (I did one of Feast and Dance last year though), so I'm not sure if any new theories have come up. I don't remember that part about Dragonstone. 

However, I remember that before ADWD came out quite a few people in the fandom were believing that Dany was the only candidate who fulfilled any of the prophecies, but after ADWD Jon became a candidate, too. I knew that it used to be a quite common belief after ADWD that GRRM would deal in one of these two ways.

1. There are several candidates who fulfil the prophecies and we might never truly learn who the real AA is, because they all fit.

2. AA and TPTWP are something different and people like Melisandre tend to confuse the two. So Dany could be AA, Jon TPTWP (not sure if dragons are a requirement or not) and maybe Bran the Last Hero (no dragons is this story).

That Sheireen would burn was also something that a few people on this board predicted, though no one believed that Stannis would burn her. There was a theory that Mel would burn her in order to ressurect Jon and we have examples of people with Greyscale being reffered to as "stonemen". So a dragon would be awoken out of stone. I don't have the links to these threads but you find it if you look into some of the old ADWD threats from 2011 and 2012. 

 I know that different people in Westeros and Essos had different interpretations of the prophecies and some of them even listed different requirements which a candidate has to fulfil. Rhagar said that TPTWP has a song which is the song of ice and fire, but this has not been mentioned by others like Melisandre. All this shows that the prophecy stuff is quite messy in the books. I'm not even sure if we ever got the full text of the prophecies. You have to piece a lot together by looking at what different people (like Melisandre and Maester Aemon have said). 

The show hasn't dealt with prophecies that much, but in the Tower of Joy scene in Episode 10 they showed us how Ned put Dawn next to Lyannas bed and Dawn is apparently made out of a bleeding star. 

Sorry if this is all a bit confusing, but these prophecies are sort of confusing. 

Lotta good food for thought there.

Interesting that Azor Ahai and The Prince That Was Promised might not be the same person.

Also interesting that "the truth" might NEVER be revealed.

I've been generally inclined to believe that Dany is NOT Azor Ahai, cuz it's "too obvious" (just like I have never believed Tyrion was the Valonqar, cuz it's "too obvious."  GRRM will give us twists, in my opinion.)  But the possibilities that AA and TPTWP are not the same person, and/or that we may never know "the truth," opens up a lot of doors.

[Queen of Procrastination]

Probably I formulated it wrongly Not that it will no be revealed at all, but just that there are several people who all fit and that there is not one true AA. 

It also leads to an interesting question: Do people fulfil the prophecy, because they were born as the people who would later save the world and because it has always been their destiny to fulfil the prophecy? Or do they fulfil the prophecies "by accident" and become AA by fulfilling the prophecies? So basically: Has it always been Daenerys destiny to become AA (for people that believe it's her) and to hatch dragons or did she become AA, because she hatched dragons? 

I personally believe that Danaerys is AA, Jon the Prince that was Promised and Bran the Last Hero, but I can easily imagine that it will turn out differently. 

I agree with Tyrion not beeing the Valonqar. I believe it's Jaime. Do you believe something else?

I forgot to answer your question about Sam in my last post: The attack on Gill never happened in the books. Jon send Gilly and Sam pretty early during his tenure as LC. Apparently several months before the mutiny.  It was also Jon's (and Aemon's) idea that Sam should become a Maester. Sam didn't want to go and Jon basically had to play the I'm-your-Lord-Commander-and-I'm-ordering-you-to-become-a-Maester-Card. 

[Darkstream]

7 hours ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

It also leads to an interesting question: Do people fulfil the prophecy, because they were born as the people who would later save the world and because it has always been their destiny to fulfil the prophecy? Or do they fulfil the prophecies "by accident" and become AA by fulfilling the prophecies? So basically: Has it always been Daenerys destiny to become AA (for people that believe it's her) and to hatch dragons or did she become AA, because she hatched dragons? 

Ahh, the age old conundrum. What came first, the chicken dragon or the petrified egg? ...  

[MoreOrLess]

On ‎06‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 3:44 PM, Karmarni said:

Yes. And Ramsay on the show locked up Sansa Stark. He didn't let her out and continued to abuse her, as she tells Littlefinger in Episode 5, "The Door."  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nK-WPx01Xk

Why the show didn't have others in Winterfell recognize this is a glaring omission. They should have addressed this. Brienne lets Littlefinger walk around after hearing what he did to Sansa. So does Jon. It's once again the loophole the show has allowed itself to justify Sansa going to Winterfell in Jeyne Poole's place. It's idiotic and makes no sense.

And it's irresponsible on the show's part to have a major character like Sansa Stark abused in this manner and then to think that showing her having her abuser killed by dogs, smirking about it, is a prudent decision. Having her say it will all be forgotten. Sure, that's what the showrunners want to have happen, for it all to go away. However, they made a poor decision to not have her rapes and abuse addressed in a rational, truly cathartic way.

Sansa likely will be a killer one day. But Ramsay Bolton is not going to be on her 'list.'

How widely is this known though? Brienne isn't present, Jon is clearly having to act politically and Sansa herself is obviously the one most justified to decide if LF needs to be punished.

I'm not really seeing the logic in being ok with Sansa being a killer "one day" but thinking that her killing mass murdering rapist Ramsay is taking that side of the character too far?

 

[MoreOrLess]

One aspect I think the show doesn't get enough credit for is actually filling out the world and characters, Martins books are obviously very detailed indeed in terms of politics but for me he never quite provides the same immersive experience as say Tolkien, Frank Hebert or Gene Wolfe. A lot of the time the books almost read like scripts to me leaving a lot of room for both actors performances and design work/cinematography to add detail.

[Karmarni]

2 hours ago, MoreOrLess said:

How widely is this known though? Brienne isn't present, Jon is clearly having to act politically and Sansa herself is obviously the one most justified to decide if LF needs to be punished.

I'm not really seeing the logic in being ok with Sansa being a killer "one day" but thinking that her killing mass murdering rapist Ramsay is taking that side of the character too far?

 

Brienne was present when Sansa confronted LF and told her that Ramsay beat her and that he cut her. Jon, well, he probably doesn't know, but you think he'd ask about LF and the Vale (how she know him, what's up with him, etc.), since they did arrive so wonderfully on time to help out. Also, for what it's worth, she never discussed with him how she left KL as far as I can remember.

I honestly don't understand the show character of Sansa. She's all over the map. I think book Sansa will kill "one day." Just not like show Sansa has.

 

[Cron]

13 hours ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

Probably I formulated it wrongly Not that it will no be revealed at all, but just that there are several people who all fit and that there is not one true AA. 

Well, even if that's not what you meant to say, I liked it anyway!  HAR!

13 hours ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

It also leads to an interesting question: Do people fulfil the prophecy, because they were born as the people who would later save the world and because it has always been their destiny to fulfil the prophecy? Or do they fulfil the prophecies "by accident" and become AA by fulfilling the prophecies? So basically: Has it always been Daenerys destiny to become AA (for people that believe it's her) and to hatch dragons or did she become AA, because she hatched dragons? 

Nice.  We're digging inot the real meat of the multiverse now, "cause and effect," "fate versus free will."  Usually I think fiction is written so there was one true answer all along, but maybe GRRM could break new ground here (far as I know).  I think your ideas are great, that it COULD be a number of people, even per the prophecy, but only one will actually pull it off.  (I have a somewhat similar view on the Iron Throne itself, I suppsose,. Ever since I read ADWD, I've believed there will NOT be a single "winner," but rather, the power will be shared equally among a "tri-archy" of rulers (the 3 headed dragon; basically a "monarchy" with 3 co-equal rulers.  The concept is discussed in a Tyrion chapter of ADWD, as I recall, and I don't think it was just random musings by GRRM)  Two of the three will be Dany and Tyrion, I predict, but the third is more difficult to say.  Maybe Jon, maybe not.

13 hours ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

I personally believe that Danaerys is AA, Jon the Prince that was Promised and Bran the Last Hero, but I can easily imagine that it will turn out differently 

I believe Jon is Azor Ahai.  I believe the fact that Melisandre kept seeing Jon in the flames is compelling.

13 hours ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

I agree with Tyrion not beeing the Valonqar. I believe it's Jaime. Do you believe something else?

In my opinion, Jaime is the Valonqar, and he will cross off Cersei.  It was clever how GRRM set it up, but I think the matter has been solved for some time.  Jaime is a few minutes younger than Cersei, he is her little brother, and we keep seeing more and more gaps in their relationship in both the books and the show.

13 hours ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

I forgot to answer your question about Sam in my last post: The attack on Gill never happened in the books. Jon send Gilly and Sam pretty early during his tenure as LC. Apparently several months before the mutiny.  It was also Jon's (and Aemon's) idea that Sam should become a Maester. Sam didn't want to go and Jon basically had to play the I'm-your-Lord-Commander-and-I'm-ordering-you-to-become-a-Maester-Card 

Ah, nice!  Again, thanks for the refresher!

[Cron]

12 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Ahh, the age old conundrum. What came first, the chicken dragon or the petrified egg? ...  

HARR!!!

Clever!!

[Cron]

12 hours ago, MoreOrLess said:

One aspect I think the show doesn't get enough credit for is actually filling out the world and characters, Martins books are obviously very detailed indeed in terms of politics but for me he never quite provides the same immersive experience as say Tolkien, Frank Hebert or Gene Wolfe. A lot of the time the books almost read like scripts to me leaving a lot of room for both actors performances and design work/cinematography to add detail.

Nice references to Tolkien, Frank Herbert and Gene Wolfe, all three are fantastic.

Gene Wolfe's "Conciliator" books were, so far as i recall, the first series I read where, if I remember correctly, we get to a point where we sudeenly realize "Whoa!  This isn't some medieval swords and sorcery story at all, these people are living in an age of super-advanced technology, although that technology is mostly lost and/or no longer understood!"  (Or maybe it was just me...am I remembering that correctly?  I read those books a LONG time ago)

Nowadays, we see this theme more and more.  Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series is a great example.  Superficially, the characters appear to be living in a time of primitive swords and "sorcery," but in reality, that's not what's going on at all.  Actually, they are living in a time about 3,000 years after the fall of a super technologically advanced civilization, with the VAST majority of knowledge about that technology having been lost, and with widespread beliefs by the people that what remains is "magic."

And so of course I note once again that it's no accident that "fantasy fiction" and "science fiction" are in the same section of every bookstore I've ever been in (I'm a huge fan of both genres, the Dune stuff was mind-bending.  Robert Heinlein is tremendous, too, as well as many others.  Asimov. Arthur C. Clarke.  On and on.)

Indeed, it's possible this same concept exists in GOT/ASOIAF.  My understanding is that Valyria was VERY advanced before they got hit by the "Doom," and much of the stuff they were doing is no longer even understood by almost anyone anymore, such as Valyrian steel.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."  -Arthur C. Clarke

[Queen of Procrastination]

6 hours ago, Cron said:

Well, even if that's not what you meant to say, I liked it anyway!  HAR!

Nice.  We're digging inot the real meat of the multiverse now, "cause and effect," "fate versus free will."  Usually I think fiction is written so there was one true answer all along, but maybe GRRM could break new ground here (far as I know).  I think your ideas are great, that it COULD be a number of people, even per the prophecy, but only one will actually pull it off.  (I have a somewhat similar view on the Iron Throne itself, I suppsose,. Ever since I read ADWD, I've believed there will NOT be a single "winner," but rather, the power will be shared equally among a "tri-archy" of rulers (the 3 headed dragon; basically a "monarchy" with 3 co-equal rulers.  The concept is discussed in a Tyrion chapter of ADWD, as I recall, and I don't think it was just random musings by GRRM)  Two of the three will be Dany and Tyrion, I predict, but the third is more difficult to say.  Maybe Jon, maybe not.

I believe Jon is Azor Ahai.  I believe the fact that Melisandre kept seeing Jon in the flames is compelling.

In my opinion, Jaime is the Valonqar, and he will cross off Cersei.  It was clever how GRRM set it up, but I think the matter has been solved for some time.  Jaime is a few minutes younger than Cersei, he is her little brother, and we keep seeing more and more gaps in their relationship in both the books and the show.

Ah, nice!  Again, thanks for the refresher!

Thank you  

Regarding fate and free will: I wouldn't mind if we never know whether it was all based on fate or free will. It's totally okay for me if GRRM never gives us an answer to this question. 

Regarding the three heads of the dragon: I'm pretty confident that Jon is one of the three heads. GRRM said that the third head does not necessarily have to be a Targaryen . This sort of implies that the other two heads have to be Targaryens. Danaerys is a Targaryen and the show has pretty much confirmed R+L=J, so we know that Jon has Targaryen blood.

These blogposts also touch some interesting stuff about the dragon riders and the three heads:

http://joannalannister.tumblr.com/post/146724343956/i-saw-in-one-of-your-answers-that-you-thought

http://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/tagged/the-dragon-must-have-three-heads

Regarding the IT: Interesting theory about the tri-archy. It would be similar to Aegon and his sisters. Do you believe the theory that Tyrion is the son of Joanna Lannister and Aerys? Because that would be his best claim to the throne apart from marrying Dany. 

Agree about Jaime. 

[MoreOrLess]

19 hours ago, Karmarni said:

Brienne was present when Sansa confronted LF and told her that Ramsay beat her and that he cut her. Jon, well, he probably doesn't know, but you think he'd ask about LF and the Vale (how she know him, what's up with him, etc.), since they did arrive so wonderfully on time to help out. Also, for what it's worth, she never discussed with him how she left KL as far as I can remember.

I honestly don't understand the show character of Sansa. She's all over the map. I think book Sansa will kill "one day." Just not like show Sansa has.

Brienne clearly acts as Sansa tells her to though, left to her own devices she might well have killed LF or at least given him a sound beating but that isn't what we see. We do of course get Jon asking Sansa about LF but generally I think we need to assume that a lot of this stuff happens off camera, his is afterall something Martin himself very often does having his narrative jump around.

I think the only big misjudgement with Sansa on the show was the "princess of darkness" moment at the end of season 4 that I'd say pushed her too far in terms of presenting her as a self confident schemer although of course she didn't actually do very much after letting LF off the hook in the Vale.

This season I felt they showed that side of her much more successfully, theres obviously a harder edge to her post Ramsay but she doesn't become unrealistically slick and confident(or indeed competent).

[MoreOrLess]

10 hours ago, Cron said:

Nice references to Tolkien, Frank Herbert and Gene Wolfe, all three are fantastic.

Gene Wolfe's "Conciliator" books were, so far as i recall, the first series I read where, if I remember correctly, we get to a point where we sudeenly realize "Whoa!  This isn't some medieval swords and sorcery story at all, these people are living in an age of super-advanced technology, although that technology is mostly lost and/or no longer understood!"  (Or maybe it was just me...am I remembering that correctly?  I read those books a LONG time ago)

Nowadays, we see this theme more and more.  Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series is a great example.  Superficially, the characters appear to be living in a time of primitive swords and "sorcery," but in reality, that's not what's going on at all.  Actually, they are living in a time about 3,000 years after the fall of a super technologically advanced civilization, with the VAST majority of knowledge about that technology having been lost, and with widespread beliefs by the people that what remains is "magic."

And so of course I note once again that it's no accident that "fantasy fiction" and "science fiction" are in the same section of every bookstore I've ever been in (I'm a huge fan of both genres, the Dune stuff was mind-bending.  Robert Heinlein is tremendous, too, as well as many others.  Asimov. Arthur C. Clarke.  On and on.)

Indeed, it's possible this same concept exists in GOT/ASOIAF.  My understanding is that Valyria was VERY advanced before they got hit by the "Doom," and much of the stuff they were doing is no longer even understood by almost anyone anymore, such as Valyrian steel.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."  -Arthur C. Clarke

To be fair Jack Vance invented that kind of future fantasy "dying earth" style years before Wolfe but I don't think he used it as effectively, the Book of the New Sun/Conciliator novels I think use the prose very effectively to allow this info to sneak up on you.

I would love to see HBO give it(or indeed Dune) a try in terms of adaptation but again I do think theres a significant difference between them and Martin. There focus is more on IMHO on building up a vastly detailed environment and a small number of protagonists who we get to know incredibly well. Martins books for me whilst here detailed leave more to the mind of the reader in terms of environment and character, indeed I think this is part of why discussion gets so heated as different people build up very different versions of the characters in their minds.

[Le Cygne]

On 10/6/2016 at 10:44 AM, Karmarni said:

Why the show didn't have others in Winterfell recognize this is a glaring omission. They should have addressed this. Brienne lets Littlefinger walk around after hearing what he did to Sansa. So does Jon. It's once again the loophole the show has allowed itself to justify Sansa going to Winterfell in Jeyne Poole's place. It's idiotic and makes no sense.

Yeah, it's all quite contrived. Jon just lets him go free, to cause more trouble.

Jon knows ("You told me Lord Baelish sold you to the Boltons"). She also told him LF couldn't be trusted ("Only a fool would trust Littlefinger. I should have told you about him.") Brienne knows (she was there at the inn when he was taking her there, and after). Bronze Yohn knows, too ("Last time I saw you, Baelish, you told me you were taking Sansa Stark home with you to the Fingers. Do you take me for a fool?") LF needed Robin's permission to send the troops, and Robin sent the troops for her ("She's my cousin. We should help her.") The troops belong to Robin, not LF, all Sansa has to do is tell Robin the truth.

Sansa also knows LF framed her for the murder of Joffrey, so the price on her head really should be on LF's head ("You don't want the queen to hear, do you? Gold cloaks are searching for you. And if they found you, how do you think they would punish the girl who murdered the king?"... "I didn't murder anyone."... "I know. I know. But you must admit it looks suspicious.") And LF told her how he did it ("Do you remember that lovely necklace Dontos gave you? I don't suppose you noticed that a stone was missing after the feast. The poison."... "If they catch you, they'll put your head on a spike just like my father's.")

(added all the quotes from the show...)

[Cron]

5 hours ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

Thank you  

Regarding fate and free will: I wouldn't mind if we never know whether it was all based on fate or free will. It's totally okay for me if GRRM never gives us an answer to this question. 

Regarding the three heads of the dragon: I'm pretty confident that Jon is one of the three heads. GRRM said that the third head does not necessarily have to be a Targaryen . This sort of implies that the other two heads have to be Targaryens. Danaerys is a Targaryen and the show has pretty much confirmed R+L=J, so we know that Jon has Targaryen blood.

These blogposts also touch some interesting stuff about the dragon riders and the three heads:

http://joannalannister.tumblr.com/post/146724343956/i-saw-in-one-of-your-answers-that-you-thought

http://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/tagged/the-dragon-must-have-three-heads

Regarding the IT: Interesting theory about the tri-archy. It would be similar to Aegon and his sisters. Do you believe the theory that Tyrion is the son of Joanna Lannister and Aerys? Because that would be his best claim to the throne apart from marrying Dany. 

Agree about Jaime. 

I tend to think Tyrion is not the son of Aerys (cuz that would make part of his storyline too similar to part of Jon's storyline, and I don't think GRRM would go there twice like that), but I guess I might be convinced he is if someone out there has strong arguments (I know it's been discussed, but I can't claim to be extremely familiar with the arguments for and against Tyrion being Aerys' son.  Yes, I know, Aerys was attracted to Joanna and Tywin treated Tyrion poorly his entire life, but those things hardly prove Tyrion is Aerys' son.   Still, though, I'm not an expert on it.).

 if Tyrion IS the son of Aerys, though, then that creates even more possibilities about the 3 heads of the dragon.  We would then have 3 Targaryens (Dany, Tyrion and Jon) to mix and match with a possible 3rd head that doesn't even have to be a Targaryen at all.  I believe Dany and Tyrion are slam dunks to be dragon heads (whether Tyrion is a Targaryen or not), and Jon is likely, but not close to the slam dunk I think Dany and Tyrion are.  I could actually see Sansa as a tri-arch, she's been groomed for it.  (But of course Jon's been groomed for leadership, too, and has a lot more actual experience with it than Sansa).  Part of the argument in my mind against Jon being a tri-arch is the fact that I suspect Jon is meant to play an even bigger role than that (like Bran)

Regarding whether even TWO of the 3 heads have to be Targaryens:  I dunno.  The comment from GRRM you mention (that the 3rd head does not necessarily have to be a Targaryen) might mean that, or it might not, I'd have to see more of the surrounding discussion and context.

Regarding any claim to the Iron Throne that Tyrion might have:   I could be wrong, but I don't think it's going to boil down to who has a better claim, or even any claim at all.  I believe that when it comes down to it, Dany will have the most raw power (she already does), and will wisely agree to split the power 3 ways voluntarily, and I don't think it will take too much urging from Tyrion for her to do it.  Dany already knows her judgment is not perfect (just like no one else's judgment is perfect, either). and frankly I think she despises the mundane daily chores of ruling anyway (such as meeting hundreds of petitioners seeking an audience with her), but Tyrion excels at it and doesn't seem to mind it (it's a natural evolution for him from his role as Hand of the Queen).  I also think Dany will realize they need checks and balances in case one of them succumbs to Mad Ruler Disease.

Finally, the biggest wild card of all:   Young Griff.   If he is Rhaegar's son (Aegon), then many more possibilities arise as well.  From the books, it seems very clear to me that he IS Aegon (Varys talking about it to Kevan as Kevan was dying seems compelling to me, since "why would he lie to a dying man?"  I don't buy the theory that Varys was speaking for the benefit of eavesdroppers, since that would also implicate Varys in Kevan's murder, and I don't believe Varys would be so clumsy or stupid), but the biggest argument against Young Griff being Aegon is his exclusion from the show.  

On the other hand, Young Griff's exclusion from the show might mean nothing, since some of the changes they have made seem so haphazardly contrary to book canon that I can't make heads or tails of their "reasoning," if in fact there IS any reasoning.  Indeed, among many other things, GRRM himself has told us that the show has already killed off someone who is still going to play an important role in the future in the books, and what does that tell us?  Answer: That the show is NOT book-canon in many ways, as we already knew.   Also, of course, the show could still decide to shoehorn Young Griff in if it turns out he is critical.

 

[Cron]

1 hour ago, MoreOrLess said:

To be fair Jack Vance invented that kind of future fantasy "dying earth" style years before Wolfe but I don't think he used it as effectively, the Book of the New Sun/Conciliator novels I think use the prose very effectively to allow this info to sneak up on you.

I would love to see HBO give it(or indeed Dune) a try in terms of adaptation but again I do think theres a significant difference between them and Martin. There focus is more on IMHO on building up a vastly detailed environment and a small number of protagonists who we get to know incredibly well. Martins books for me whilst here detailed leave more to the mind of the reader in terms of environment and character, indeed I think this is part of why discussion gets so heated as different people build up very different versions of the characters in their minds.

Well, I'd definitely watch either of those series (Dune or New Sun).

I actually thought the Dune movie (with Kyle MacLachlan) was a pretty decent effort (I said "decent."  In order to do it properly, they would need 10 hours, and I guess maybe that's what you're suggesting, which would be fine with me.   Paul's son, Leto II, is actually even more important to the history of that universe, and I'd love to see them get into his story, too. 

I'm kind of surprised no one has ever tackled Asimov's Foundation series.  Too much thinking, maybe, and not enough action.

Robert Heinlein also has many books that would be great for adaptation, although of course Starship Troopers has already been done.  Wonder why no one has ever taken on an adaptation of Stranger in a Strange Land???  That book has sold a LOT of copies.

[Meera of Tarth]

On ‎07‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 7:35 AM, Cron said:

I liked the show's Horn Hill stuff, but I liked Sam and Dareon in Braavos too (indeed, that's where we learn about Tysha, the Sailor's Wife, and Tyrion's daughter, Lanna, in my strong opinion).

Yeah, if Gilly was crying a lot in the books (I forget, but I believe you) then I'm glad they chopped that out, and you raise a great point about Aemon dying at Castle Black instead of on the journey (i never thought about it before, but I think you're right that it was a better end for Aemon)

I like Sam in the books quite a lot. The trip had voring parts but also some pearls, like the last days of Aemon and heartbreaking scenes like when he is oitdoors in the ship and it's raining. however, I can't say I didn't like Aenon's last moments in the show. In fact, it was done quite well and it's probably the only thing I enjoyed from S5, besides Jorah.

I missed Sam in Braavos a lot.....and his meeting with Arya. It woulf have been amazing to see that.

Horn Hill was really good IMO. but the best moment was his last scene in the library. By far one of the very best (if not the best) moments from s6.

I missed his last chapter in Oldtown, though. i don't think we will be avle to ever see that arc.

[Queen of Procrastination]

1 hour ago, Cron said:

I tend to think Tyrion is not the son of Aerys (cuz that would make part of his storyline too similar to part of Jon's storyline, and I don't think GRRM would go there twice like that), but I guess I might be convinced he is if someone out there has strong arguments (I know it's been discussed, but I can't claim to be extremely familiar with the arguments for and against Tyrion being Aerys' son.  Yes, I know, Aerys was attracted to Joanna and Tywin treated Tyrion poorly his entire life, but those things hardly prove Tyrion is Aerys' son.   Still, though, I'm not an expert on it.).

 if Tyrion IS the son of Aerys, though, then that creates even more possibilities about the 3 heads of the dragon.  We would then have 3 Targaryens (Dany, Tyrion and Jon) to mix and match with a possible 3rd head that doesn't even have to be a Targaryen at all.  I believe Dany and Tyrion are slam dunks to be dragon heads (whether Tyrion is a Targaryen or not), and Jon is likely, but not close to the slam dunk I think Dany and Tyrion are.  I could actually see Sansa as a tri-arch, she's been groomed for it.  (But of course Jon's been groomed for leadership, too, and has a lot more actual experience with it than Sansa).  Part of the argument in my mind against Jon being a tri-arch is the fact that I suspect Jon is meant to play an even bigger role than that (like Bran)

Regarding whether even TWO of the 3 heads have to be Targaryens:  I dunno.  The comment from GRRM you mention (that the 3rd head does not necessarily have to be a Targaryen) might mean that, or it might not, I'd have to see more of the surrounding discussion and context.

Regarding any claim to the Iron Throne that Tyrion might have:   I could be wrong, but I don't think it's going to boil down to who has a better claim, or even any claim at all.  I believe that when it comes down to it, Dany will have the most raw power (she already does), and will wisely agree to split the power 3 ways voluntarily, and I don't think it will take too much urging from Tyrion for her to do it.  Dany already knows her judgment is not perfect (just like no one else's judgment is perfect, either). and frankly I think she despises the mundane daily chores of ruling anyway (such as meeting hundreds of petitioners seeking an audience with her), but Tyrion excels at it and doesn't seem to mind it (it's a natural evolution for him from his role as Hand of the Queen).  I also think Dany will realize they need checks and balances in case one of them succumbs to Mad Ruler Disease.

Finally, the biggest wild card of all:   Young Griff.   If he is Rhaegar's son (Aegon), then many more possibilities arise as well.  From the books, it seems very clear to me that he IS Aegon (Varys talking about it to Kevan as Kevan was dying seems compelling to me, since "why would he lie to a dying man?"  I don't buy the theory that Varys was speaking for the benefit of eavesdroppers, since that would also implicate Varys in Kevan's murder, and I don't believe Varys would be so clumsy or stupid), but the biggest argument against Young Griff being Aegon is his exclusion from the show.  

On the other hand, Young Griff's exclusion from the show might mean nothing, since some of the changes they have made seem so haphazardly contrary to book canon that I can't make heads or tails of their "reasoning," if in fact there IS any reasoning.  Indeed, among many other things, GRRM himself has told us that the show has already killed off someone who is still going to play an important role in the future in the books, and what does that tell us?  Answer: That the show is NOT book-canon in many ways, as we already knew.   Also, of course, the show could still decide to shoehorn Young Griff in if it turns out he is critical.

 

Interesting.

About Tyrion: I don't know that much about the J+A=T theory either, but I don't really believe it. We already have Jon and Aegon apart from that it would already mean that Tywin was right about Tyrion the whole time. I believe that Cersei and Jaime will both die and that Tyrion will live, so it would be nice if Tywin's last surviving child and the new head of house Lannister is the one he hated the most and wanted to disinherit. But yes claims might not matter very much in the end. 

About Sansa: I've heard a lot of statements which claim that she's been groomed to rule, but I disagree with these. LF teaches her how to play the game, but playing the game is something completely different than ruling. Ruling involves things like diplomacy, finance (we know she's bad in that area), military strategy, justice, and so on. She has never been taught anything about ruling. Neither by her parents nor by LF. I could see her more in a position where she has to work behind the scenes. I actually think that playing the  game and ruling are things that get confused quire often. Not all players of the game would necessarily make good rulers. Most of them are probably too selffish and would only do what is good for them, but not what is good for the realm. 

Regarding Young Griff: I think there are a lot of good arguments for him being Aegon, but also a lot of good arguments against it, so it could turn out both ways. The show has alredy left out so much important stuff and barely focused on the prophecies. However, I do believe that the person or persons who will rule at the end of the show will also rule at the end of the books. I kinda suspect that Young Griff will die in the books. Martin has said that several people will sit on the IT before the books are finished and he could easily be one of these people. 

[Queen of Procrastination]

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, it's all quite contrived. Jon just lets him go free, to cause more trouble.

Jon knows ("You told me Lord Baelish sold you to the Boltons"). She also told him LF couldn't be trusted ("Only a fool would trust Littlefinger. I should have told you about him.") Brienne knows (she was there at the inn when he was taking her there, and after). Bronze Yohn knows, too ("Last time I saw you, Baelish, you told me you were taking Sansa Stark home with you to the Fingers. Do you take me for a fool?") LF needed Robin's permission to send the troops, and Robin sent the troops for her ("She's my cousin. We should help her.") The troops belong to Robin, not LF, all Sansa has to do is tell Robin the truth.

Sansa also knows LF framed her for the murder of Joffrey, so the price on her head really should be on LF's head ("You don't want the queen to hear, do you? Gold cloaks are searching for you. And if they found you, how do you think they would punish the girl who murdered the king?"... "I didn't murder anyone."... "I know. I know. But you must admit it looks suspicious.") And LF told her how he did it ("Do you remember that lovely necklace Dontos gave you? I don't suppose you noticed that a stone was missing after the feast. The poison."... "If they catch you, they'll put your head on a spike just like my father's.")

(added all the quotes from the show...)

This shows again how much the showrunners have messed up by giving the Sansa the Jeyne Poole role. 

On top of the things you've mentioned it seems like the Northern Lords believe that Sansa married Ramsay voluntarily and only ran away when she realised what kind of person he was. They seem to have a negative image of Sansa because she was married to Ramsay ("Lady Sansa is a Bolton or is she a Lannister"). Surely they would see her in a more positive light if they believed that she had been kidnapped. 

So we apparently have tons of different versions of the whole Sansa Ramsay thing in the series. Some people believe that Sansa has been kidnapped, others believe that LF forced her to marry Ramsay and others believe that she married Ramsay voluntarily. As soon as sees people start talking things get interesting. Actually some of these people should've talked already. Jon and Brienne for example or Jon and Lord Royce. 

[MoreOrLess]

56 minutes ago, Cron said:

Well, I'd definitely watch either of those series (Dune or New Sun).

I actually thought the Dune movie (with Kyle MacLachlan) was a pretty decent effort (I said "decent."  In order to do it properly, they would need 10 hours, and I guess maybe that's what you're suggesting, which would be fine with me.   Paul's son, Leto II, is actually even more important to the history of that universe, and I'd love to see them get into his story, too. 

I'm kind of surprised no one has ever tackled Asimov's Foundation series.  Too much thinking, maybe, and not enough action.

Robert Heinlein also has many books that would be great for adaptation, although of course Starship Troopers has already been done.  Wonder why no one has ever taken on an adaptation of Stranger in a Strange Land???  That book has sold a LOT of copies.

Lynch's Dune is you could argue not a great adaptation given that it not only loses a lot of detail but arguably the central message of the story(Paul actually fighting against the messianic role) but as a more simple heroic story I think its effective, generally very well acted and the atmosphere does sum up the books nicely(well minus the Sardaukar), best thing Toto were ever involved in as well(although I suspect Eno locked them in a cupboard and did the whole soundtrack himself). The problem I spose is that its not really Lynchian enough for his fans who view it as for hire work whilst still too weird for the general public and not close enough to the book to please its fans.

On one level I actually think Wolfe's Book of the New Sun is closer to ASOFAI/GOT in subject matter though, very detailed fantasy world involving lots of sex and violence. You could argue as well its naturally quite well suited to TV being rather episodic in nature with just a single plot thread but the problem is your dealing with much stranger and more complex world and a much less heroic protagonist.

[Cron]

6 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I like Sam in the books quite a lot. The trip had voring parts but also some pearls, like the last days of Aemon and heartbreaking scenes like when he is oitdoors in the ship and it's raining. however, I can't say I didn't like Aenon's last moments in the show. In fact, it was done quite well and it's probably the only thing I enjoyed from S5, besides Jorah.

I missed Sam in Braavos a lot.....and his meeting with Arya. It woulf have been amazing to see that.

Horn Hill was really good IMO. but the best moment was his last scene in the library. By far one of the very best (if not the best) moments from s6.

I missed his last chapter in Oldtown, though. i don't think we will be avle to ever see that arc.

Yeah, good stuff!

I think most people on these boards are (and/or have been) pretty heavy readers, so we've got soft spots for Sam cuz he loves to read so much, and that library scene is like an amusement park for us!!  Oh, how we would love to browse through there!

On a similar note (love of reading), I also thought it was pretty cool how GRRM gave us Asha's uncle, "Rodrik the Reader."  HARR!!!   Classic, classic character, everyone else is out in the world doing things, and this guy just sits around reading all the time.  I think it's a real shame how they chopped so much of Asha's story our of the show, definitely including Rodrik the Reader.

I'll have to refresh my memory about Sam's last chapter in Oldtown, I admit it's gotten pretty fuzzy.