Is There Anything On The Show That You Think Is Better Than The Books?

[Queen of Procrastination]

5 hours ago, Cron said:

Great stuff, I enjoyed reading it all.

Yes, i really loved the scenes like the ones you describe from Season One as well (there are similar ones in other seasons, too),where scenes are added that could have happened in the books, but weren't "shown" in the books.  They do not contradict the books, they supplement the books.  You mentioned a couple great examples (Jaime, Robert and Barristan talking about the Mad King, and the Robert and Cersei scene) and there are others.  I even liked the short scene we got from Robert's boar hunt.  I liked the conversation between Renly and Robert, it told us some more about who each one is, and how interacted with each other.

In my opinion, the show would have been even better if they had done more stuff like this, AND, as a bonus, they probably could have stretched the first five books into at least 7 seasons, if not more (especially if they had also not cut so much material outright)   They coulda milked this thing for a while, but no, they raced through the material, chopping stuff out left and right...and then ran out of canon material.

Thank you

I think the show was always best when it stayed close to the books and only made changes that didn't change the story and the characters to much. Not just because I'm a book fan. I know many show-only fans who didn't like Jon's and Dany's storylines in Season 2 and didn't have a very high opinion of the whole Robb/ Talisa thing. These are also the storylines where season 2 diverged the most from ACOK and it didn't have a positive effect on the characters involved. 

7 Seasons might have been too much, but they could have easily done 6 seasons, by not trying to put AFFC and ADWD in 1 Season. Sure these books are slower than ASOS, but there is still enough good stuff in there that would have made for great television. They even took some stuff out of the books (like the introduction of Dorne), but pretty much chopped of everything that was important for that storyline. Before season 5 came out I loved the show. I didn't like some of the changes the show made, but I liked the show in general. Now season 5 and 6 have turned me from a showlover to a showhater, because all my favourite characters and storylines where butchered (there are some other reasons, like the bad writing of the last two seasons, that increased this feeling). From what I see on this board, I believe that many people here have a similar opinion and that the show would be more popular around here if AFFC and ADWD had been adapted properly. 

5 hours ago, Cron said:

Yeah, I wish they hadn't cut out ALL of the Griff and Young Griff storyline.  I was really looking forward to seeing all of those characters, and even now I'm not convinced Young Griff is NOT Rhaegar's son Aegon.  I know it seems hard to believe they would cut out such incredibly important stuff, but then, look at some of the other changes they have made.

I liked that storyline in the books , butI can understand why the cut it. It would have been difficult for many show-only watchers to understand this storyline, especially without giving them tons of historical information. However, I think that the problem of that cut is that there is currently no one in Westeros who presents a realistic challenge to Daenerys. It will be highly unrealistic if Euron manages to build a fleet with 1000 ships on an island with barely any trees and not enough people to man them. The show will probably go this way, but it will be extremely illogical (well there is not much logic left in the show anyway). 

I think cutting Griff and Young Griff would have worked under the following conditions:

- Introducing Euron with the dragon horn and all the magical stuff, so that he seems like a real threat to Dany and her dragons.

- Not having Dorne ally with Daenerys. Her army is allready big enough. They should have stayed closer to book Dorne. They could have developed a plot were a Martell (it doesn't necessarily have to be Quentin) gets send to Meeren and then gets killed by the dragons. Due to that the Martells turn against Daenerys. Instead of allying with Young Griff, like they will probably do in TWOW, they could have declared independence. Just show that Dorne is different than the other kingdoms and mention the fact that Dorne stayed independent when Aegon and his sisters arrived in Westeros and you could develop a storyline where Dorne decides to become independent. That might even make it harder for Daenerys, because you don't just have several families that are against Daenerys, you have 3 kingdoms which don't want to be part of the 7 kingdoms at all. 

[Meera of Tarth]

 

Quote

 

15 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Dany later looks back on that night and thinks she was afraid, but excited. GRRM talks about it here:

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/21681757

 

 

 

I have just re-read the 2nd and third chapters of Dany to remember everything  a little bit better.

My thoughts:

During the wedding she is scared of what will happen at night (it's normal since she is going to marry an stranger who doesn't know). When Drogo gives her Silver her thoughts vanish-I think that can be considered a romantic -but then they return again when Viserys frightens her. The wedding night is nicely written (I didn't remember it exactly, just the ending she is turnt on) and I agree that could be considered romantic, because Drogo is so gentle, and they spend a lot of time undressing, watching each other naked, etc before starting it. And yes, up to the point that she is turnt on because-as I view it-she is attracted to him.

My point is that even if it is written as a kindly scene (and she actually tells him to start) there is no romance yet, and Dany is just attracted physically because of the circumstances (attraction) and because she knows they are already married and she has to stay with him (Viserys tells her to do it well).

So she knew that was her duty, and the fact that this guy doesn't end up acting like a common Dothraki to her (which it probably was one of her biggest fears) but the contrary (he is very gentle and turns her on) makes her more predisposed to the sex. However, I still think that there is a part of fear but more importantly pre-installed resignation in her thoughts that I can't ignore. 

In the next chapter it bothered me that she describes their intimate moments without the delicacy of their wedding night, more the contrary in fact, and that she is not happy; until she has her dragon dream. At the same time, she is also concerned about the fact that the way they do sex, he can't look at her eyes so she is glad that her husband doesn't see her crying. I suppose I mixed a little the two chapters  and now I see things clearer. The feeling of "not wanting that my husband sees me crying" makes me think of "not wanting to disappoint him", and it can interpreted as duty -resignation-(also love, but they are not in love yet, so I think it doesn't apply here).

So, overall, I'd say that I definitely think the wedding night is written romantically (the horse, the undressing, etc) and that is to build up their future relationship based on mutual love. Personally, now I view it as more romantic than I first thought, but not especially romantic for the reasons above. However, now that I have re-read it I totally understand that you see it as romantic because it really is written this way.

 

Quote

 

On 4/10/2016 at 1:49 PM, Woman of War said:

I did not see it as anyhow sexy or romantic in the books either, I found it hugely disturbing, but it was not meant by Martin to be so very disturbing. The way the helpless girl gets aroused by the big male beast when the author should have written about fear, pain and disgust from the abused child. This is what annoys me in Martin's writing here.

But let's leave the topic, I don't think we are so far apart from each other here.

 

 

Sorry for re-quoting, but now that I have re-read it I think I can answer it more properly.

I think that the fear is there in all the chapter (except when she rides Silver and Drogo and Dany start).

Quote

When she pulled up before Magister Illyrio, she said, "Tell Khal Drogo that he has given me the wind." The fat Pentoshi stroked his yellow beard as he repeated her words in Dothraki, and Dany saw her new husband smile for the first time.

The last silver of sun vanished behind the high walls of Pentos to the west just then. Dany had lost all track of time. Khal Drogo commanded his bloodriders to bring forth his own horse, a lean red stallion. As the khal was saddling the horse, Viserys slid close to Dany on her silver, dug his fingers into her leg, and said, "Please him, sweet sister, or I swear, you will see the dragon wake as it has never woken before."

The fear came back to her then, with her brother's words. She felt like a child once more, only thirteen and all alone, not ready for what was about to happen to her.

First of all, I don't approve sex in young girls like Dany, rape or even modern world young marriage at all. But I'll try to read it given that the author has established that in this world it's not uncommon to marry at younger ages (and teenagers are Lord Comanders).

The disgust, as I view it now, it’s ok if it’s not there because I think Dany has resignated to marry and knows what her duty is (she is more mature than modern 13 year old, she knew she had to do it, and, apart from that, Viserys tells her it is her duty again, later), and there is no pain because of what Drogo does to her before, very gently, and also her expectations towards him change a lot compared to the ones she had some hours before, so she naturally turns on (sexual awakening).  

As I see it, we learn very soon that Dany is very brave and that is a constant in her development through the story-so I think in that sense it’s well-established in this chapter: the fear vanishes. At the same time I don’t think it’s wrong if a girl is sexually aroused by the man she has married (of course considering that in this particular world highborn girls can be married sooner; not in our world-although attraction appears at younger ages even today). Furthermore, as an establishment of their future love relationship, there is a symbolic element in the fact that Drogo makes Dany's fears disappear.

I agree that my preconceptions of the show, that I watched before reading (the scene was too short and didn’t portray the same than in the books) and more importantly, the age of the character-even if this is a different culture and world- may be a part of not fully considering it as romantic even at this moment; but now, after re-reading I can see more the romantic part of it.

In my view, if the author wanted to create a love story between them, the wedding night should have been written the way it is. I also agree that if it had been written differently, like the 3rd chapter does, it would have been more realistic (for her age and fears), but it would have failed to portray Dany’s inner strength, and Drogo’s differentiate factor from the other Dothrakis (would other Dothrakis have failed in love like Drogo with Dany later if they would have been brutal in their first night?), and also wouuld have failed to establish the future romance since the beginning.

However, written the other way around –or like the show did- (tenderness at the beginning but not enough patience) would have worked better for the age of the girl from our modern perspective but at the same time, it would have also needed more chapters to discover the gentle Drogo-or to make him “change” his behavior in a convincing way.

[StepStark]

14 hours ago, dsug said:

The fact that none of you see nothing wrong with this stuff in the books is so baffling to me, when you criticize the show so harshly. Thirteen year old girls do not want to have sex with strangers. It's not exciting or sexy or anything other than creepy. GRRM trying to make it seem sweet and romantic is frankly disgusting.

I know D&D have made their own mistakes in that regard, but at least they depict rape as what is: gross, brutish, and damaging. 

Thirteen year old girls have been having sex with strangers throughout history, usually on their wedding night. Same with 13 year old boys. And some of those kids were lucky enough to have a romantic experience. So what Martin wrote is really not unrealistic or disgusting, because it's the era of arranged marriages. It is only disgusting if you ignore historical aspect and look at it from the modern perspective. D&D showed something else entirely. In the show Dany was raped on her wedding night which puts Drogo in a much different light than in the books. It's not true that D&D depicted the same thing as George, only more "realistic". They depicted something very different. If they were trying to depict the same thing, they failed miserably. If they were trying to "correct" Martin by making the scene more "realistic", they failed not only as writers but also as readers. Either way, the show version is a blasphemy because it greatly changes Dany's character, because in the show she's actually not against rape. At least, she isn't against it when she's the one who's raped.

[JonSnow4President]

10 hours ago, Cron said:

I even liked the short scene we got from Robert's boar hunt.  I liked the conversation between Renly and Robert, it told us some more about who each one is, and how interacted with each other.

 

http://turtle-paced.tumblr.com/post/135312176762/book-2-vs-season-2-cain-and-abel-baratheon

I despised that scene, although it's largely for an adaptational gripe.  It also doesn't fit with Renly being the type who would invite chaos into all of Westeros with a "might makes right" philosophy to rule, by pressing his claim in season 2.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

I'm pretty sure it will end up as a holy war but I agree with @Meera of Tarth on this point.

If one is writing a piece about child marriage or underage prostitution in the modern world, they would write about fear, pain and disgust as being said. GRRM writes a fiction set up in a fictional world. I assume if he just wanted to write some erotic stuff with pedophile undertones, he would choose a different genre.

First, a fantasy world can't be judged only as a fictional entity with its own rules and standarts. In a fantasy world dragons fly around, teenage commanders lead armies and priests resurrect from the dead. In a real modern Western world a mother who let her 14.y.o. son to go to war would lose custody to say the least. And what about Jon Snow with zero sex experience performing a mind blowing oral sex? Well, I'd rather believe in dragons

Second, every character and every scene in a fiction serves a story. Dany's story is a coming-of-age story, everything what happens to her is a step in her development. In the books, Dany's wedding night isn't just some juicy scenem, it shows her overcoming fears and realizes that she is a person, whose wishes are respected.

[dsug]

32 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Thirteen year old girls have been having sex with strangers throughout history, usually on their wedding night. Same with 13 year old boys. And some of those kids were lucky enough to have a romantic experience. So what Martin wrote is really not unrealistic or disgusting, because it's the era of arranged marriages. It is only disgusting if you ignore historical aspect and look at it from the modern perspective. D&D showed something else entirely. In the show Dany was raped on her wedding night which puts Drogo in a much different light than in the books. It's not true that D&D depicted the same thing as George, only more "realistic". They depicted something very different. If they were trying to depict the same thing, they failed miserably. If they were trying to "correct" Martin by making the scene more "realistic", they failed not only as writers but also as readers. Either way, the show version is a blasphemy because it greatly changes Dany's character, because in the show she's actually not against rape. At least, she isn't against it when she's the one who's raped.

You hate the show, we get it. 

And yes, in history, young children have had to have sex with strangers much older than themselves. That does not mean they want to. GRRM writing that scene and thinking it's romantic is honestly super creepy and worrying. If he genuinely believes that thirteen year old girls get turned on by strange men their brothers forced them to marry, then maybe he's not as smart and female-friendly as we think he is. 

In a series full of greatness, that's kind of a stain on an almost otherwise pristine series. 

[Ruhail]

7 minutes ago, dsug said:

You hate the show, we get it. 

You love the show, we get it. 

[RhaenysBee]

Everything is wrong with both books and show. Just wrong. 

They mean something as romance, but it's creepy and disturbing. They mean something as heroic, but it really is just whitewashing and war propaganda. They mean something as justice, but it's so wrong and offensive because by 2016 US laws it's actually a crime. They mean something as a nice dress but it's honestly sickeningly sexist and also body shaming. They mean something a fierce warrior, but it's just promoting patriarchy and advertising a false body image. They mean something as religious symbol but it's really environmentally unconscious and ignorant. 

Everything is wrong with everything, it's all oppressive and upsetting and offensive. Aren't we taking this fictional story (and generally everything) a little too seriously and literally? 

[dsug]

47 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

Everything is wrong with both books and show. Just wrong. 

They mean something as romance, but it's creepy and disturbing. They mean something as heroic, but it really is just whitewashing and war propaganda. They mean something as justice, but it's so wrong and offensive because by 2016 US laws it's actually a crime. They mean something as a nice dress but it's honestly sickeningly sexist and also body shaming. They mean something a fierce warrior, but it's just promoting patriarchy and advertising a false body image. They mean something as religious symbol but it's really environmentally unconscious and ignorant. 

Everything is wrong with everything, it's all oppressive and upsetting and offensive. Aren't we taking this fictional story (and generally everything) a little too seriously and literally? 

I'm just pointing out a clear bias against the show by certain posters. They love the books so see nothing wrong with romanticized rape, but they hate the show so realistic rape with consequences is a problem. 

[dsug]

57 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

You love the show, we get it. 

love the show and books both, buddy. just making note of a certain blindspot GRRM and his fans might have for a certain topic. 

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, dsug said:

I'm just pointing out a clear bias against the show by certain posters. They love the books so see nothing wrong with romanticized rape, but they hate the show so realistic rape with consequences is a problem. 

actually rape WITHOUT consequences is a problem for many viewers\readers.

[dsug]

Just now, Meera of Tarth said:

actually rape WITHOUT consequences is a problem for many viewers\readers.

im not sure what you're implying but I can say that the show has explored the psychological impacts of abuse with Sansa, maybe not as in depth as some would have liked, but they definitely showed it. 

the books discuss it as well. 

the only point im trying to make is that the Dany/Drogo wedding night scene is a bizarre anomaly where GRRM completely mishandled a specific topic and i think we should be allowed to say that. GRRM isn't infallible. Neither are David and Dan, as this forum loves to point out. 

[Meera of Tarth]

23 hours ago, dsug said:

im not sure what you're implying but I can say that the show has explored the psychological impacts of abuse with Sansa, maybe not as in depth as some would have liked, but they definitely showed it. 

the books discuss it as well. 

the only point im trying to make is that the Dany/Drogo wedding night scene is a bizarre anomaly where GRRM completely mishandled a specific topic and i think we should be allowed to say that. GRRM isn't infallible. Neither are David and Dan, as this forum loves to point out. 

of course you are allowed to say your opinion, I haven't said the contrary.

but nobody has talked about being infallible.....

but saying that realistic rape is a problem in the show just because and only because of a certain bias and not genuine opinions was out of nowhere. I, for instance, have no problem in analysing it independently and I have recognised in my previous post when I have a certain bias (remembering reading it and seeing less romanticism than in my second reading because of the show).

Nobody is rooting for romanticised rape or whatever you called it, either. In fact, the rape part you refer appears, again, as an influence by the show. Rape and romance are two incompatible words. Of course it could be considered rape or at least a crime in our times because of LEGAL age but if you reread the passage Dany wants to have sex with him at that moment. So it's not rape. Does she want to marry him previously? that's another thing, as it is her mature age, something open to be discussed and in fact brought in the debate several times: Was she too young in the books maybe? Is the culture of Westeros different from ours regarding marriages? Etc.

so don't make absurd generalisations of people not being objective enough when you don't make the effort to be sufficiently objective or don't read the posts in depth to understand nobody likes "romanticised rape".

On Sansa: They might have explored it in s5 but in s6 there was a big failure.

[StepStark]

3 hours ago, dsug said:

You hate the show, we get it. 

And yes, in history, young children have had to have sex with strangers much older than themselves. That does not mean they want to. GRRM writing that scene and thinking it's romantic is honestly super creepy and worrying. If he genuinely believes that thirteen year old girls get turned on by strange men their brothers forced them to marry, then maybe he's not as smart and female-friendly as we think he is. 

In a series full of greatness, that's kind of a stain on an almost otherwise pristine series. 

What are you saying exactly? That it was unrealistic for Dany to have a romantic wedding night with a stranger her brother picked up for her? Or that it was immoral from Martin to write it as a romantic experience? Are you for real? Are you aware that in effect you're saying that there was no happy marriage before modern era? Are you aware that by your standards Ned and Cat also shouldn't be a happy and loving couple, and yet they clearly were, even though they were complete strangers on their wedding night? What's creepy and worrying is people that read something as complex as ASOIAF but fail to grasp even the basic concepts of the setting. Not to mention that those concepts existed in our own reality until just a generation or two ago.

[StepStark]

2 hours ago, dsug said:

I'm just pointing out a clear bias against the show by certain posters. They love the books so see nothing wrong with romanticized rape, but they hate the show so realistic rape with consequences is a problem. 

What rape??? LOL! Dany was not raped in the books! Martin didn't write it as a rape, he never intended to write it as a rape, he never discussed it as a rape! It's just a show-lovers' projection. Yes, people were being married to strangers for centuries and centuries. It was a normal fact of life for centuries and centuries. If a writer created a medieval-like setting, it's realistic to have people marrying strangers. It's not rape. Grow up.

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

40 minutes ago, StepStark said:

What rape??? LOL! Dany was not raped in the books! Martin didn't write it as a rape, he never intended to write it as a rape, he never discussed it as a rape! It's just a show-lovers' projection. Yes, people were being married to strangers for centuries and centuries. It was a normal fact of life for centuries and centuries. If a writer created a medieval-like setting, it's realistic to have people marrying strangers. It's not rape. Grow up.

And yet Dany was raped time after time by Drogo, and you can bet your ass that it was written as rape. 

[JonSnow4President]

Post first night, I definitely think it is a lot more up for debate as to the level of consent.  Personally, I read those chapters and see a newlywed bride in a world where her duty is largely defined as boning and making heirs.  I see a young person (woman in this world, child in ours) trying to do her duty without knowing how to vocalize/communicate her displeasure.  

However, I can entirely see how someone reads those scenes as rape, and neither interpretation leads to romance at all (which I think is clearly attempted in the first night).  

The show is very unambiguous with the way it chose to go, and the whole stockholm syndrome complaint IMO is much more valid in that medium than in the books because of that lack of ambiguity.  If you think that's more realistic than someone dealing with the realities of forced marriage, I'm not going to argue for or against that.  

[Meera of Tarth]

31 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said:

And yet Dany was raped time after time by Drogo, and you can bet your ass that it was written as rape. 

claiming that doesn't change the fact that she wasn't raped on her wedding night but, on the contrary, she physically wanted to and desired him.

as for the other times....I don't think we could talk about rape so directly. The books tell us they had sex the Dothraki way (not looking into eachother's eyes) and she clearly disliked it because she cries and has pain. But why does she cry and have pain? Is that rape? let's analyse it with two possible cases.

One of the possibilities is that she doesn't want sex every night but she has to as ot is her duty as his spouse. If she is not excited and at the same time Drogo is not delicate of course she will have a painful experience both physically and emotionally. But she clearly knows her place as khalessi (have sex with your husband even if you don't want) and it's not our world. However, it wasn't different not so long ago in real life. Nowadays we would consider it as rape but I can agree with that only with the modern standards because sadly in ancient times women didn't have the same rights: Being submissive to your husband's desires was not "rape" but an obligation (and in modern world still happens in many countries unfortunately). This is the worst scenario to consider where rape (as we understand it today) could be applied.

Then, the other possibility is that even if she might not want to have sex every night with him, he actually likes him and pities the fact they are not having the same experience as they had in their wedding night, crying as a consequence. And I think that's the case because after her dragon dream she actually starts enjoying sex with him again-even late at nights (the situation hasn't changed). If there was no affection she would never start enjoying it. What has happened? She is more secure of herself and brave and starts liking the other things of the Dothraki life. She is less stressed, in other words. The epitome of that is when she actually handles the situation and tells Drogo exactly what she wants.

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

Wow. Now I remember why I stopped visiting this site. 

[Meera of Tarth]

22 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

Post first night, I definitely think it is a lot more up for debate as to the level of consent.  Personally, I read those chapters and see a newlywed bride in a world where her duty is largely defined as boning and making heirs.  I see a young person (woman in this world, child in ours) trying to do her duty without knowing how to vocalize/communicate her displeasure.  

However, I can entirely see how someone reads those scenes as rape, and neither interpretation leads to romance at all (which I think is clearly attempted in the first night).  

The show is very unambiguous with the way it chose to go, and the whole stockholm syndrome complaint IMO is much more valid in that medium than in the books because of that lack of ambiguity.  If you think that's more realistic than someone dealing with the realities of forced marriage, I'm not going to argue for or against that.  

I agree with that. Another point to consider is the lack of a same language/ that could be another reason why she "permitted" all that happen for so much time, apart from the fact she actually didn't have a choice as a khalessi to say no. When she learns thw language she can communicate what she wants and Drogo ends up understanding that.

I admit that one of the reasons I don't ship them is because when watching the show we saw "rape" since the beginning. The lack of time for her story wasn't able to develop all the subtleties that the book has regarding her situation. However, I end up liking them enough to cry at the end of the season and I finally saw there was love. Just not my ship.

converdely, if I had read the books first I might have liked it more maybe (because their wedding night is written nicely) but at the same time, Dany's young age and the fact that I'm not into forced marriage stories (even if they end up being with real love) would have caused a bad effect on me. Overall, I don't know how I would have reacted if I had read it before watching but I'm sure I woulf have also liked them enough to see their love and cried also at the end, even if it is not one of my fav pairings. and reading it after watching the effect was the same: I finally liked them.