Is There Anything On The Show That You Think Is Better Than The Books?

[Dragon in the North]

24 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

So we have setup to the Vale and Kings Landing early on.  Then we go on a brief false trail, before getting turned onto the Arya trail.  We then get a fight while she is moving on, before getting captured by the Brotherhood.  While the relation to other stories is fairly minimal, a compact arc does take place. 

It's an arc that doesn't advance the plot. Her last chapter finally gets her plot moving, but it ends on a cliffhanger.

 

26 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

Compare that to "what happens" in Jon AGOT (he goes to the Wall and takes his vows) for 9 chapters, or 5 chapters for the Red Wedding and Qarth exclusively in ACOK.  I just don't get the hate for AFFC Brienne. 

Brienne's arc is far from the only problem I've had with AFFC. There are many chapters just like her's that serve as character development and world building, but doesn't advance the plot at all. You're right about some of the plots in the earlier books being a little filler, but it wasn't nearly to the extent of AFFC. In those books, even though we received plots like Quarth, there were also many more storylines that moved the plot along at a relatively steady pace. In AFFC, after finishing a Brienne chapter that didn't really go anywhere, it was only more of the same.

[JonSnow4President]

5 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

It's an arc that doesn't advance the plot. Her last chapter finally gets her plot moving, but it ends on a cliffhanger.

 

Brienne's arc is far from the only problem I've had with AFFC. There are many chapters just like her's that serve as character development and world building, but doesn't advance the plot at all. You're right about some of the plots in the earlier books being a little filler, but it wasn't nearly to the extent of AFFC. In those books, even though we received plots like Quarth, there were also many more storylines that moved the plot along at a relatively steady pace. In AFFC, after finishing a Brienne chapter that didn't really go anywhere, it was only more of the same.

And it's a complaint I've never understood.  Combined with ADWD, the two books move all the chess pieces into place for massive changes in almost every theater in early TWOW.  I don't know how someone can say that doesn't move the plot, unless by plot you mean move to the next big shiny battle scene.  Maybe the plot isn't what you wanted it to be?  Maybe you wanted a greater focus on political intrigue across all storylines and were disappointed there.

The Ironborn theater certainly advances. 

In just four chapters, the Dornish theater is introduced, with an entire plot to Crown Myrcella taking place

Cersei's plot certainly moves.

Jaime's plot certainly moves.

While it is only 3 chapters, the Vale storyline moves from Littlefinger to deep shit to Littlefinger and Sansa bethrothed to the presumed future Lord of the Vale

Brienne's storyline covers both a false and real trail, before being diverted with Brienne having to sell out Jaime.

Sam goes from the Wall to Oldtown.

Arya's covers the first couple stages of training, (with a remaining bit in ADWD).

So pray tell, how does the plot not move? Because I'm not seeing it?

 

[Rhollo]

16 hours ago, HanginginWesteros said:

Helpless Stannis? I think not. He got what he deserved especially after he burned his innocent daughter at the stake just to get out of the snow. Talk about losing all sense of your moral compass. Brienne's execution of him was far more fair and honorable than Stannis deserved. 

Brienne didn't know about what Stannis did to Shireen. She executed him purely out of revenge for Renly. Which is understandable, and a personal vendetta is almost always a morally grey thing, not a "noble" or "honorable" motivation, but rather that of an anti-hero. And yes, in the situation she executed him, he was pretty helpless. Although, killing him right there might have been a mercy, compared to what Ramsay would have done to him. But neither of them seemed to consider this in that moment.

7 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

I understood what Martin was trying to do with Brienne's chapters, but I don't think he handled it very well. Her chapters are a classic example of Martin sacrificing plot advancement for character development. That is why her chapters are considered to be filler. They barely move the plot at all.

So character development is filler ? I don't get that argument. ASOIAF ist written entirely from POV perspectives, so for me exploring the characters is the heart and soul of the series. The plot is almost secondary and exists for the characters to react and develop.

[Dragon in the North]

7 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

The Ironborn theater certainly advances. 

Yes it does.

 

8 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

In just four chapters, the Dornish theater is introduced, with an entire plot to Crown Myrcella taking place

The plot to crown Myrcella goes nowhere.

 

8 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

Cersei's plot certainly moves.

Cersei's plot advances the most, but it still pales in comparison to previous seasons.

 

8 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

Jaime's plot certainly moves.

No, it doesn't. His plot doesn't begin to advance until ADWD, when Brienne tricks him into coming with her.

 

8 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

While it is only 3 chapters, the Vale storyline moves from Littlefinger to deep shit to Littlefinger and Sansa bethrothed to the presumed future Lord of the Vale

Again, the plot doesn't even begin to move forward until the last chapter, when Littlefinger finally reveals his plan. 

 

8 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

Brienne's storyline covers both a false and real trail, before being diverted with Brienne having to sell out Jaime.

Her story doesn't serve the plot at all until she meets the BwB in her last chapter.

 

8 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

Sam goes from the Wall to Oldtown.

And everything in between was pure filler.

 

8 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

Arya's covers the first couple stages of training, (with a remaining bit in ADWD).

For what purpose? If her plot would actually advance, we would know.

[Dragon in the North]

2 hours ago, Rhollo said:

So character development is filler ? I don't get that argument. ASOIAF ist written entirely from POV perspectives, so for me exploring the characters is the heart and soul of the series. The plot is almost secondary and exists for the characters to react and develop.

In this case, yes. It's possible to have character development and move he plot at the same time. Most other authors are capable of doing this, but Martin apparently has lost this ability. 

[JonSnow4President]

5 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

Yes it does.

 

The plot to crown Myrcella goes nowhere.

 

Cersei's plot advances the most, but it still pales in comparison to previous seasons.

 

No, it doesn't. His plot doesn't begin to advance until ADWD, when Brienne tricks him into coming with her.

 

Again, the plot doesn't even begin to move forward until the last chapter, when Littlefinger finally reveals his plan. 

 

Her story doesn't serve the plot at all until she meets the BwB in her last chapter.

 

And everything in between was pure filler.

 

For what purpose? If her plot would actually advance, we would know.

So if there's not a big battle or big shock at the end of each book, the plot doesn't advance?  What is the standard for the plot moving?  As far as saying the plot goes nowhere for some of those, you're either intentionally sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming I can't hear you, or you have a very odd definition of what constitutes moving.  (Myrcella's injury alone is entirely worth 4 chapters from a "move the plot" standpoint).

[Meera of Tarth]

8 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

Yes it does.

 

The plot to crown Myrcella goes nowhere.

. 

Her story doesn't serve the plot at all until she meets the BwB in her last chapter.

 

Killing Doran and Trystanne because weak men can't rule Dorne really goes everywhere

I suppose that making Brienne look at a candle for a season because she can't save Sansa moves the plot-.

[Meera of Tarth]

8 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

So if there's not a big battle or big shock at the end of each book, the plot doesn't advance?  What is the standard for the plot moving?  As far as saying the plot goes nowhere for some of those, you're either intentionally sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming I can't hear you, or you have a very odd definition of what constitutes moving.  (Myrcella's injury alone is entirely worth 4 chapters from a "move the plot" standpoint).

Moving the plot means killing more than 5 charcaters in a season finale-with more blood ans sadism- the better.

But, hey, don't really know, just a guess.

[Dragon in the North]

2 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

So if there's not a big battle or big shock at the end of each book, the plot doesn't advance?  What is the standard for the plot moving?  As far as saying the plot goes nowhere for some of those, you're either intentionally sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming I can't hear you, or you have a very odd definition of what constitutes moving.  (Myrcella's injury alone is entirely worth 4 chapters from a "move the plot" standpoint).

Not necessarily. In order for the plot to move forward, things of consequence actually have to happen that affects multiple storylines, not just one. Take the Red Wedding, for example. It may have happened to Robb and Catelyn, but it had a ripple effect that impacted the entire story. The same goes for Ned's death, Renly's death, the Battle of the Blackwater, Tyrion's trial, etc.

As for Myrcella, until we know the result her injury will have on the rest of the story, I consider it filler. Maybe if Dorne was my only issue with AFFC, I would give Martin the benefit of the doubt, but it wasn't, so I won't.

[Dragon in the North]

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Killing Doran and Trystanne because weak men can't rule Dorne really goes everywhere

I suppose that making Brienne look at a candle for a season because she can't save Sansa moves the plot-.

Killing Doran and Trystane was obviously a culling of the Dornish storyline. D&D understood that Dorne wasn't working, so they rectified it. I wish Martin would do the same.

As for Brienne, I would rather have a few minutes of screen time of her doing nothing than eight chapters of her doing nothing.

[Meera of Tarth]

13 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

Killing Doran and Trystane was obviously a culling of the Dornish storyline. D&D understood that Dorne wasn't working, so they rectified it. I wish Martin would do the same.

As for Brienne, I would rather have a few minutes of screen time of her doing nothing than eight chapters of her doing nothing.

I disagree. I made conterarguments on those two examples because I don't think they are fillers in the books.

Brienne's adventures would have worked very well on TV instead of her doing nothing; which is what happens in the show. I know her adventures might not be liked for some people but I can't understand;,for the same reason; why those are "nothing" and looking at a candle is "something".

as for Dorne they should have cut it completely before doing what they did, but the book's story was more interesting than what the show offered. they had material to work with or adapt instead of inventing a lot of filler scenes or their Dorne.

of course the book will advance further if they cut everything. But it would advance even more quickly if the show had already ended in s1, just to put an example of how ridiculous would it be if there is no story but only one beginning and one ending.

[Dragon in the North]

2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Brienne's adventures would have worked very well on TV instead of her doing nothing; which is what happens in the show. I know her adventures might not be liked for some people but I can't understand;,for the same reason; why those are "nothing" and looking at a candle is "something".

I disagree with this. Brienne is not an important enough character to dedicate that amount of screen time to. Looking at a candle was nothing, and I would never argue the contrary, but it took very little amount of screen time to do so, so it worked better on television.

 

3 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

as for Dorne they should have cut it completely before doing what they did, but the book's story was more interesting than what the show offered. they had material to work with or adapt instead of inventing a lot of filler scenes or their Dorne.

I agree with all of this. They should have left it alone, and I actually thought the Dorne storyline in the books was better, but that's not saying much. The Dorne storyline in the books is still a mess, imo, just not as bad as the show.

[JonSnow4President]

50 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

Not necessarily. In order for the plot to move forward, things of consequence actually have to happen that affects multiple storylines, not just one. Take the Red Wedding, for example. It may have happened to Robb and Catelyn, but it had a ripple effect that impacted the entire story. The same goes for Ned's death, Renly's death, the Battle of the Blackwater, Tyrion's trial, etc.

As for Myrcella, until we know the result her injury will have on the rest of the story, I consider it filler. Maybe if Dorne was my only issue with AFFC, I would give Martin the benefit of the doubt, but it wasn't, so I won't.

So, until you know how it affects the rest of the plot, it doesn't count?  Because keeping Sandor around (and establishing how he survives) and bringing the BWB into play for Jaime, bringing Shadrich into play for Sansa, and showing the origination of the Sparrows totally doesn't affect other storylines.  To date, Dany's storyline has had no affect on the Westerosi story besides Sailor Gossip (and the actions of Dorne, but those don't count for reasons), so is it just a waste?  Jon's has had minimal effect everywhere but Winterfell.  I guess that's just a Waste.  Myrcella's injury isn't known, but even though it's obvious what the potential repercussions are, it doesn't count because it hasn't happened yet.  

You want to say you don't like it, or don't think it's a subplot worth telling, or the payoff (or potential payoff) isn't worth the limited screentime, be my guest. That's opinion, and while I think it's a dumb opinion, it's your right to have it. But don't say the plot doesn't move just because you don't like the way it's moving or not YET affecting the "other" storylines.  It's a remarkably shortsighted view to take. 

[Meera of Tarth]

57 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

I disagree with this. Brienne is not an important enough character to dedicate that amount of screen time to. Looking at a candle was nothing, and I would never argue the contrary, but it took very little amount of screen time to do so, so it worked better on television.

 

 

How do you know Brienne is not an important character? She has survived until at least S7. She is tied to a major character: Jaime. I bet she is important enough.

I know she didn't have much screentime, but there are many scenes they could have done from the books. There is one, "similar" to the one from Home in s6, in which she fights some men.

Her last chapters, with the orphans, are also good to adapt (protecting the children).

They filmed an scene in which she tells Podrick about her past, that was a good adaptation IMO. They could have done something different and yet much more interesting from any of her chapters.

 

Quote

I agree with all of this. They should have left it alone, and I actually thought the Dorne storyline in the books was better, but that's not saying much. The Dorne storyline in the books is still a mess, imo, just not as bad as the show.

Yes, BookDorne was much better than the show. I found the line "weak men can't rule Dorne" resolution very misogynist.

[JonSnow4President]

1 minute ago, Meera of Tarth said:

 

Yes, BookDorne was much better than the show. I found the line "weak men can't rule Dorne" resolution very misogynist.

It's like the worst men's right actvist's view of what a feminist is. 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

39 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

It's like the worst men's right actvist's view of what a feminist is. 

I guess GOT overdo in portraying  what is supposed to be "strong woman character" and the do the opposite.

[JonSnow4President]

Just now, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I guess GOT overdo in portraying  what is supposed to be "strong woman character" and the do the opposite.

If I had to guess, I would think that's their idea of what a feminist is supposed to be.  Given their marketing materials, it sure as hell doesn't seem like they're aware that it's anything less than that.

[Dragon in the North]

1 hour ago, JonSnow4President said:

So, until you know how it affects the rest of the plot, it doesn't count?  Because keeping Sandor around (and establishing how he survives) and bringing the BWB into play for Jaime, bringing Shadrich into play for Sansa, and showing the origination of the Sparrows totally doesn't affect other storylines.  To date, Dany's storyline has had no affect on the Westerosi story besides Sailor Gossip (and the actions of Dorne, but those don't count for reasons), so is it just a waste?  Jon's has had minimal effect everywhere but Winterfell.  I guess that's just a Waste.  Myrcella's injury isn't known, but even though it's obvious what the potential repercussions are, it doesn't count because it hasn't happened yet.  

I'm saying we shouldn't have to guess why a storyline is important or what impact it will have in the future. When Ned died, I didn't have to wonder why Martin was showing me this because the impact of his death was revealed in that very same book. The same can be said for Tyrion's trail, the Red Wedding, Tywin's death, Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion, etc. The very fact that we have to guess why Young Griff matters, why Myrcella's maiming is important, why we needed to see Brienne fruitlessly traveling around the Riverlands looking for Sansa is proof enough that it's bad storytelling.

 

1 hour ago, JonSnow4President said:

You want to say you don't like it, or don't think it's a subplot worth telling, or the payoff (or potential payoff) isn't worth the limited screentime, be my guest. That's opinion, and while I think it's a dumb opinion, it's your right to have it. But don't say the plot doesn't move just because you don't like the way it's moving or not YET affecting the "other" storylines.  It's a remarkably shortsighted view to take. 

Of course it's my opinion, I never claimed otherwise. I'm using facts to back up my opinion, whereas you've stooped to using personal attacks because you don't like what I'm saying.

[Dragon in the North]

51 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

How do you know Brienne is not an important character? She has survived until at least S7. She is tied to a major character: Jaime. I bet she is important enough.

Because she isn't the main focus of the story and has had very little impact on the plot. I'm not sure what you constitute as a major character, but, for me, this disqualifies her as one.

 

53 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I know she didn't have much screentime, but there are many scenes they could have done from the books. There is one, "similar" to the one from Home in s6, in which she fights some men.

Her last chapters, with the orphans, are also good to adapt (protecting the children).

They filmed an scene in which she tells Podrick about her past, that was a good adaptation IMO. They could have done something different and yet much more interesting from any of her chapters.

Yes, they could have, but since Brienne isn't a favorite character of mine, I don't care. I know you feel strongly for her character, and I wish they had done better with her for your sake, but since her story doesn't serve the plot in any significant way, at least not yet, I didn't have a problem with them cutting it. Maybe Winds will change my mind regarding this, but until Martin releases it, my opinion stands.

[JonSnow4President]

2 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

I'm saying we shouldn't have to guess why a storyline is important or what impact it will have in the future. When Ned died, I didn't have to wonder why Martin was showing me this because the impact of his death was revealed in that very same book. The same can be said for Tyrion's trail, the Red Wedding, Tywin's death, Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion, etc. The very fact that we have to guess why Young Griff matters, why Myrcella's maiming is important, why we needed to see Brienne fruitlessly traveling around the Riverlands looking for Sansa is proof enough that it's bad storytelling.

 

Of course it's my opinion, I never claimed otherwise. I'm using facts to back up my opinion, whereas you've stooped to using personal attacks because you don't like what I'm saying.

I disagree fundamentally with that.  Is Bran's story worthless since we don't know the exact impact?  Jon's?  Jaime's? Cersei's?  Stannis'?  For a long time, we don't get confirmation of where those storylines are going.  So much of the joy of reading a story is that unfolding, finally figuring out what is going on and how what you have read so far relates to it.  

The sad thing is that there isn't that much guesswork needed to figure out where those storylines are going.  Only a mindset that focuses on what is immediately on the page right now can come to the conclusion that it's a meandering mess with no plot movement.

And you haven't used facts at all.  You've made some arbitrary points about a subplot not yet affecting an important subplot.  It's set up a major player in Kings Landing.  It's set up someone who is probably setting the Vale plot on fire early next book.  And it's set up a Jaime/Cat showdown, which has ramifications that could lead to the downfall of the Freys and affects Kings Landing again.  

At no point have you made it clear this is you're opinion.  We've never been arguing over it was a waste of time, or a boring plot.  Merely that it hasn't moved, which is factually incorrect.