Could Marwyn the Mage be a dragon?

[Yuzzybus]

9 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

He could be ned's other bastard. Did you think of that one? 

No I do not think so.  He is much too old. :) I get what you are saying about an over abundance of secret bastard and Targ theories.  What else are we suppose to do while we wait for Winds of Winter.

Never claimed it was hard evidence.  It is just colorful imagery that I thought could be overlooked that might have interesting implications.  Sourleaf means nothing.  Mysterious guy whose teeth look like there are on fire and spits fire is rushing of as fast as he can to join Dany.  Could mean something.

Good catch on the possible Vale connection OuttaOldtown.  Some of the Hightowers may be rather bull like too, but I have not looked into it.

[Seams]

45 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

Not really. As stated earlier, sourleaf chewing =/= targ in any way. Since there is as much evidence of Marwyn being a secret targ as there is of him being Ned's bastard, there is no smug anywhere. If you cannot bear to be in an online conversation where faceless, alias having people disagree with you then mayhaps the internet isn't the right place to have a conversation?

I would welcome conversation - that's why I come here. I do not welcome bullying.

I expect neither of us has anything more to say to each other. I already avoid you when I can, and I guess I'll now block your self-important posts altogether.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

I agree with @OuttaOldtown I've thought for years that he's possibly a Royce. Who else but someone whose family owns a supposed magical suit of armor guarded by runes engraved on it would be a student of magic.The only other Marwyn in the books being from the Vale isn't an actual clue, but it does appear that some names are regional. The physical description and the family's warded armor are what convinced me.

[OuttaOldtown]

10 minutes ago, Yuzzybus said:

No I do not think so.  He is much too old. :) I get what you are saying about an over abundance of secret bastard and Targ theories.  What else are we suppose to do while we wait for Winds of Winter.

Never claimed it was hard evidence.  It is just colorful imagery that I thought could be overlooked that might have interesting implications.  Sourleaf means nothing.  Mysterious guy whose teeth look like there are on fire and spits fire is rushing of as fast as he can to join Dany.  Could mean something.

Good catch on the possible Vale connection OuttaOldtown.  Some of the Hightowers may be rather bull like too, but I have not looked into it.

I've considered the Hightower connection as well, we've had very few clues as to their physical traits, but their connection to sorcery is interesting. However it seems like the other Maesters at the Citadel view Marwyn as an outsider, I'm not sure if that leads me to think he's a Hightower..

[OuttaOldtown]

9 minutes ago, Balerion's Whiskers said:

I agree with @OuttaOldtown I've thought for years that he's possibly a Royce. Who else but someone whose family owns a supposed magical suit of armor guarded by runes engraved on it would be a student of magic.The only other Marwyn in the books being from the Vale isn't an actual clue, but it does appear that some names are regional. The physical description and the family's warded armor are what convinced me.

Yes, there's a lot of name George could've used but he chose to introduce two Marwyn's in the same book, I may be a clue. I don't think his Valyrian links mean he is a Targ, it just symbolic of the study of magic, Marwyn's ability to use glass candles makes him among the most well informed people in the story..

[Yuzzybus]

Very good points on the Royce connection. 

I assumed a Hightower relationship given how far Marwyn has gotten in spite of his unpopular views and uncouth behavior.  Perhaps there is not much competition for the Archmaester of Magic.  He reminds me of one of those professors that is very driven and competent but has no interest or capacity for playing politics.

[MinotaurWarrior]

8 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

What do the Valyrian steel links have to do with anything at all? The maesters forge their own links, their presence obviously predates Marwyn, and Tobho Mott could forge Valyrian Steel without dragonfire.

As to dragon sorcerers, you should have turned left at Albuquerque because you're in the wrong story. 

It's as obvious that he's not a level 20 anything as it is that he's not literally a dragon.

1 hour ago, King Ned Stark said:

It is certainly possible.  As far as the hidden Targs are concerned, the blame lies with Martin, he is the one after all that laid the hints about multiple characters possibly having Targaryen blood, I see no reason to discredit Marwyn much more than say, Jaime or Tyrion.

As far as Marwyn, there does seem to be more to him then just some commoner who rose through the ranks of the Citadel.  He is linked to Alleras, Mirri Maz Dur (sp?), and Qyburn; all of which are more than what they appear to be.  Rodrik the Reader was reading his book The Book of Lost Books.  He is interested in prophecy, which is somewhat of a Targaryen family trait.  We have this from Marwyn:

And this from Lazy Leo:

Now, if one were so inclined, you could equate the menagerie to the sigils of the Houses of Westeros (wolf and bear and lion and stag) and the mastiff to the creature (dragons) that mastered them.

Illyrio calls Varys a wizard, Marwyn is called a Mage, seems like those two fellas would want an ally within the Citadel, seeing as how they control so much information and all.  For what it's worth, the term mastiff can be used synonymously with the word mossoler, which is an ancient breed of large, sturdy-built dogs that come from a common ancestor.  Red or black, a dragon is a dragon.

Now, this is all pretty thin, but so is some of the evidence for othe "secret Targs", theories that have seemed to garner a rather large following on this forum.

@Seams, very well said.

Marwyn is, I think, clearly very important. Randos don't get foreshadowed so consistently. Your idea of a Marwyn / Varys connection is interesting, and on first blush makes more sense than the Preston theory of a Dornish alliance, but I'm unconvinced. I'd love to hear more evidence, if you have it.

1 hour ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Do not think he's a Targ, I've done some research on his identity myself, here's the physical description of Maester Marwyn as told by Sam:

 

"Marwyn wore a chain of many metals around his bull’s neck. Save for that, he looked more like a dockside thug than a maester. His head was too big for his body, and the way it thrust forward from his shoulders, together with that slab of jaw, made him look as if he were about to tear off someone’s head. Though short and squat, he was heavy in the chest and shoulders, with a round, rock-hard ale belly straining at the laces of the leather jerkin he wore in place of robes. Bristly white hair sprouted from his ears and nostrils. His brow beetled, his nose had been broken more than once, and sourleaf had stained his teeth a mottled red. He had the biggest hands that Sam had ever seen."

 

And this less detailed one provided from Pate the acolyte. 

 

"..he could not deny that Marwyn looked more a mastiff than a maester.....Some even whispered that once he had killed a man with his fists."

 

Beyond his appearance I looked into his name, and realized an abundance of names ending in 'yn' can be found from Dorne to Beyond the Wall. 

 

But there's one other Marwyn in the story, Ser Marwyn Belmore, he is described as "a lanky ginger-headed knight", which bares no resemblance but could be suggesting to look for a family in the Vale to find clues. 

 

Ser Marwyn is removed as Captain of the Guards of the Eyrie and is replaced by Ser Lothor Brune by Littlefinger. He then becomes Captain at the Gates of the Moon serving cadet branch of House Royce. Here's the physical description of the High Steward of the Vale as told by Sansa:

 

"Lord Nestor Royce was a bullnecked, barrel-chested, balding man with a grey-shot beard and a stern look"

 

Can't help but notice how close that is to Maester Marwyn's "bull’s neck" & a heavy chest as described by Sam, but he's only one Royce, how about Yohn Royce of the senior branch of the House:

 

"The Lord of Runestone stood as tall as the Hound. Though his hair was grey and his face lined, Lord Yohn still looked as though he could break most younger men like twigs in those huge gnarled hands.....Bronze Yohn had slate-grey eyes, half-hidden beneath the bushiest eyebrows she had ever seen."

 

Thought the height isn't a match the huge hands & the bushy eyebrows are prominent features of both he & Marwyn, to have 'beetled brows' is a fancy way of writing to have shaggy overhanging eyebrows. 

 

However the hands are where I think there is a potential match as Sam seems to almost views them as so large that they're almost threatening and Pate confirms there's whispers of Marwyn killing a man with his fists. Sansa thinking that Yohn's hands look as if they could break men bares resemblance. 

 

Interestingly, and possibly connected, the prologue of AGoT ends with Waymar Royce, son of Yohn Royce, being killed & turned into a wight. He then goes on to strangle Will with his hands:

 

"Long, elegant hands brushed his cheek, then tightened around his throat." 

 

So my best guess is he's a Royce, I've also considered the possibility he could be from beyond the wall and have some giants blood, but there's no proof.. 

I think the name connection is interesting, but I the body type evidence unconvincing. He's too short. And besides, if you're looking for killer hands, look to Greyjoy. 

[King Ned Stark]

 

 

@MinotaurWarrior,

Honestly, I've given virtually no thought to Marwyn, just read the OP and after seeing some snide remarks to a new poster decided to do a ten minute Google search on the Mage.  Like you said, there's more to him, I just don't really have a clue.  The Varys connection just kinda popped in my head, as they both seem to be Targ/Blackfyre supporters with Illyrio.  Then it occurred to me they would probably want a Maester as an ally.  The maesters don't seem to be as innocuous as Luwin and Cressen led me to believe early on, they are men after all.  So, sorry, was just bored and searching around on the Internet.

Truth be told, I clicked on the topic because I guess I haven't read any theories on Marwyn that I can remember.                        

[OuttaOldtown]

49 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

I think the name connection is interesting, but I the body type evidence unconvincing. He's too short. And besides, if you're looking for killer hands, look to Greyjoy. 

Like I said it's just a guess, I see it as a sign to look to the Vale..

31 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

 

 

@MinotaurWarrior,

Honestly, I've given virtually no thought to Marwyn, just read the OP and after seeing some snide remarks to a new poster decided to do a ten minute Google search on the Mage.  Like you said, there's more to him, I just don't really have a clue.  The Varys connection just kinda popped in my head, as they both seem to be Targ/Blackfyre supporters with Illyrio.  Then it occurred to me they would probably want a Maester as an ally.  The maesters don't seem to be as innocuous as Luwin and Cressen led me to believe early on, they are men after all.  So, sorry, was just bored and searching around on the Internet.

Truth be told, I clicked on the topic because I guess I haven't read any theories on Marwyn that I can remember.                        

I compiled this a while back..

His first intro is in AGoT by Mirri Maz Durr and how she came to learn healing skills:

 

"  maester from the Sunset Lands opened a body for me and showed me all the secrets that hide beneath the skin.”

“Marwyn, he named himself,” the woman replied in the Common Tongue. “From the sea. Beyond the sea. The Seven Lands, he said. Sunset Lands. Where men are iron and dragons rule. He taught me this speech.”

“A maester in Asshai,” Ser Jorah mused. “Tell me, Godswife, what did this Marwyn wear about his neck?”

“A chain so tight it was like to choke him, Iron Lord, with links of many metals.”

The knight looked at Dany. “Only a man trained in the Citadel of Oldtown wears such a chain,” he said, “and such men do know much of healing.”

 

Rodrik the Reader also give us interesting info:

 

“Archmaester Marwyn’s Book of Lost Books.” He lifted his gaze from the page to study her. “Hotho brought me a copy from Oldtown. He has a daughter he would have me wed.” Lord Rodrik tapped the book with a long nail. “See here? Marwyn claims to have found three pages of Signs and Portents, visions written down by the maiden daughter of Aenar Targaryen before the Doom came to Valyria.”

 

This is Pate's view of Marwyn:

 

"When Marwyn had returned to Oldtown, after spending eight years in the east mapping distant lands, searching for lost books, and studying with warlocks and shadowbinders, Vinegar Vaellyn had dubbed him “Marwyn the Mage.” The name was soon all over Oldtown, to Vaellyn’s vast annoyance."

 

And:

 

People said that he kept company with whores and hedge wizards, talked with hairy Ibbenese and pitch-black Summer Islanders in their own tongues, and sacrificed to queer gods at the little sailors’ temples down by the wharves. Men spoke of seeing him down in the undercity, in rat pits and black brothels, consorting with mummers, singers, sellswords, even beggars. Some even whispered that once he had killed a man with his fists.

 

When Sam gets to the Citadel he's sleepy as hell from banging Gilly & passed out in the waiting room.  He's woken by Sarella/Alleras & spills the beans about everything. Then instead of going to see Maester Theobald he's led to see Maester Marwyn:

 

"The room beyond was large and round. Books and scrolls were everywhere, strewn across the tables and stacked up on the floor in piles four feet high. Faded tapestries and ragged maps covered the stone walls. A fire was burning in the hearth, beneath a copper kettle. Whatever was inside of it smelled burned. Aside from that, the only light came from a tall black candle in the center of the room."

 

Then this conversation happens:

 

 “Is that... ?”

“... obsidian,” said the other man in the room, a pale, fleshy, pasty-faced young fellow with round shoulders, soft hands, close-set eyes, and food stains on his robes.

“Call it dragonglass.” Archmaester Marwyn glanced at the candle for a moment. “It burns but is not consumed.”

“What feeds the flame?” asked Sam.

“What feeds a dragon’s fire?” Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. “All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man’s dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?”

 

And then there's this: 

 

“What will you do?” asked Alleras, the Sphinx.

“Get myself to Slaver’s Bay, in Aemon’s place. The swan ship that delivered Slayer should serve my needs well enough. The grey sheep will send their man on a galley, I don’t doubt. With fair winds I should reach her first.” Marwyn glanced at Sam again, and frowned. “You... you should stay and forge your chain. If I were you, I would do it quickly. A time will come when you’ll be needed on the Wall.” He turned to the pasty-faced novice. “Find Slayer a dry cell. He’ll sleep here, and help you tend the ravens.”

“B-b-but,” Sam sputtered, “the other archmaesters... the Seneschal... what should I tell them?”

“Tell them how wise and good they are. Tell them that Aemon commanded you to put yourself into their hands. Tell them that you have always dreamed that one day you might be allowed to wear the chain and serve the greater good, that service is the highest honor, and obedience the highest virtue. But say nothing of prophecies or dragons, unless you fancy poison in your porridge.” Marwyn snatched a stained leather cloak off a peg near the door and tied it tight. “Sphinx, look after this one.”

“I will,” Alleras answered, but the archmaester was already gone. They heard his boots stomping down the steps.

“Where has he gone?” asked Sam, bewildered.

“To the docks. The Mage is not a man who believes in wasting time." Alleras smiled. "I have a confession. Ours was no chance encounter, Sam. The Mage sent me to snatch you up before you spoke to Theobald. He knew that you were coming."

 

Keep in mind Aemon corpse was preserved and he seemed to have planned to leave aboard the Cinnamon Wind before the conversation takes place, I think there's a possibility Marwyn will come to Dany appearing as her great, great uncle Aemon. Whatever Arya drank to become a FM was brewed for him before he left.

 

"A fire was burning in the hearth, beneath a copper kettle. Whatever was inside of it smelled burned."

 

Compared to what Arya drank:

 

"When the milk came, Arya drank it down. It smelled a little burnt and had a bitter aftertaste."

 

On a side note I also think Kojja Mo is Sarella's mother and that Marwyn and Oberyn were acquainted. Both have obviously travelled, and Oberyn was also was an acolyte at the Citadel. 

 

"Kojja Mo was the captain's daughter, taller than Sam and slender as a spear, with skin as black & smooth as a polished jet. She captained the ships red archers too, and pulled a double curved golden heart now that could send a shaft 400 yards"

 

Sounds a lot like Sarella/Alleras  in the aspects of archery & physical description, this from Pate for comparison:

 

"The Sphinx looks slight, but there's strength in those slim arms"

 

"...his father was a Dornishman, his mother a Summer Islander. His own skin was dark as teak. And like the green marble sphinxes that flanked the Citadel's main gate, Alleras had eyes of onyx"

 

And Sam's impression of Sarella:

 

"The speaker was a slim, slight, comely youth"

 

And she dies tell Sam they know he was coming:

 

“To the docks. The Mage is not a man who believes in wasting time." Alleras smiled. "I have a confession. Ours was no chance encounter, Sam. The Mage sent me to snatch you up before you spoke to Theobald. He knew that you were coming."

Sam is unaware this guy is taking off with all of Aemon's books, both of their possessions and Aemon's dead corpse, Gilly & the baby and possibly the horn of winter on the very same ship that brought him to Oldtown from Bravvos on his way to Dany. 

Also the CW was in Qarth:

Your grace," the knight said, "I bring you Quhuru Mo, captain of the Cinnamon Wind out of Tall Trees Town"

 

And this is what he tells her when she inquires if they are headed west:

 

"Not for a year or more, I fear. From here the Cinnamon Wind sails east, to make the trader's circle round the Jade Sea"

 

I think they're a connection between Marwyn and this ship, and a mutual interest in Dany is clear. 

[King Ned Stark]

25 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

snip

Wow, that's impressive, and thanks for sharing.  Do you think he's in league with Pate the Faceless man and a deceiver to Dany; like the lie to slay of the great stone beast, perfumed seneschal, or the mummer with a dragon?

[OuttaOldtown]

3 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

Wow, that's impressive, and thanks for sharing.  Do you think he's in league with Pate the Faceless man and a deceiver to Dany; like the lie to slay of the great stone beast, perfumed seneschal, or the mummer with a dragon?

I think he is in league with the Alchemist, and I highly doubt it's just a coincidence that Sam and Aemon ended up aboard the CW. The whole thing seems too coincidental, I had this in my notes as well which shows they found Sam:

In Bravvos, Sam is urged by a very fragile Aemon who has been having storage dreams to find out what he can about these dragons to the east:

 

"The ships," he said again. "We will find our answer there. About the dragons, I need to know."

 

Sam is the. saved by a Summer Islander when searching :

 

"Xhondo mates on Cinnamon Wind. Many tongues he speaks, a little. Inside Xhondo laughs, to see you punch the singer. And Xhondo hears." A broad white smile spread across his face. "Xhondo knows these dragons."

 

[King Ned Stark]

So it's feasible that he gave Aemon some of those dreams on the Blackbird or whatever the ship was called?

[OuttaOldtown]

15 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

So it's feasible that he gave Aemon some of those dreams on the Blackbird or whatever the ship was called?

Yes, he tells Sam this much.

"The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man’s dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles."

The final Sam chapter in Feast is really loaded with info it's impossible to to see everything clearly on first read, coupled with the prologue as well..

[The Fattest Leech]

11 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

~snipped~

 

“To the docks. The Mage is not a man who believes in wasting time." Alleras smiled. "I have a confession. Ours was no chance encounter, Sam. The Mage sent me to snatch you up before you spoke to Theobald. He knew that you were coming."

Sam is unaware this guy is taking off with all of Aemon's books, both of their possessions and Aemon's dead corpse, Gilly & the baby and possibly the horn of winter on the very same ship that brought him to Oldtown from Bravvos on his way to Dany. 

~snipped~

I agree with this,, it is really good, but I do have one question about one spot I see differently. I think Sam has the horn with him at the Citadel and he will fix it as I explained below, and Sam is of Horn Hill. What are your thoughts on this?

In the poem Grímnismál, Odin (disguised as Grímnir), tortured, starved and thirsty, tells the young Agnar that he wishes that the valkyries Hrist ("shaker") and Mist ("cloud") would "bear him a [drinking] horn", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valkyrie

Poetic Edda:

On the horn’s face were there All the kin of letters Cut aright and reddened, How should I rede them rightly? The ling-fish long (a ling-fish is a dragon?) Of the land of Hadding, Wheat-ears unshorn, And wild things inwards.

We have a few references to Sam being so scared that he shakes (could be coincidental), but we also know Bloodraven is heavily associated with the mists.

Sam is in Oldtown to train a s a maester and the third link is generally the bronze link, which is astronomy. The bronze bands on the horn are broken and it's a good thing Sam is in a place that trains its people to forge metals and also has a library that holds secrets from hundreds of years past. Sam does love to read and learn about past, as Jon also commanded him to do.

 

[OuttaOldtown]

8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I agree with this,, it is really good, but I do have one question about one spot I see differently. I think Sam has the horn with him at the Citadel and he will fix it as I explained below, and Sam is of Horn Hill. What are your thoughts on this?

In the poem Grímnismál, Odin (disguised as Grímnir), tortured, starved and thirsty, tells the young Agnar that he wishes that the valkyries Hrist ("shaker") and Mist ("cloud") would "bear him a [drinking] horn", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valkyrie

Poetic Edda:

On the horn’s face were there All the kin of letters Cut aright and reddened, How should I rede them rightly? The ling-fish long (a ling-fish is a dragon?) Of the land of Hadding, Wheat-ears unshorn, And wild things inwards.

We have a few references to Sam being so scared that he shakes (could be coincidental), but we also know Bloodraven is heavily associated with the mists.

Sam is in Oldtown to train a s a maester and the third link is generally the copper link, which is astronomy. The copper bands on the horn are broken and it's a good thing Sam is in a place that trains its people to forge metals and also has a library that holds secrets from hundreds of years past. Sam does love to read and learn about past, as Jon also commanded him to do.

One funny line that Leo says in the AFFC prologue is, "I understand you won your copper link. I'll drink to that."" which is kinda ironic because Jon told Sam to make a drinking horn out of the broken horn he gave him. Wouldn't it be funny if Sam fixed the horn, filled it with ale, tried to drink from it (incorrectly) and accidentally blew the damn thing and woke an ice dragon? Hey, I can dream!

A Feast for Crows - Prologue

Perhaps it was the fearsomely strong cider—he had not come here to drink, but Alleras had been buying to celebrate his copper link, and guilt had made him thirsty—but it almost sounded as if the nightingale were trilling gold for iron, gold for iron, gold for iron.

 

...and then this...

"Mutton," muttered Mollander. He sounded none too pleased about it. "We shared a haunch of boiled mutton."

"I'm certain it was filling." Leo turned to Alleras. "A lord's son should be open-handed, Sphinx. I understand you won your copper link. I'll drink to that."

Alleras smiled back at him. "I only buy for friends. And I am no lord's son, I've told you that. My mother was a trader."

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon V

It must have been buried for a reason.

He had made a dagger for Grenn as well, and another for the Lord Commander. The warhorn he had given to Sam. On closer examination the horn had proved cracked, and even after he had cleaned all the dirt out, Jon had been unable to get any sound from it. The rim was chipped as well, but Sam liked old things, even worthless old things. "Make a drinking horn out of it," Jon told him, "and every time you take a drink you'll remember how you ranged beyond the Wall, all the way to the Fist of the First Men." He gave Sam a spearhead and a dozen arrowheads as well, and passed the rest out among his other friends for luck.

Here's why I don't believe he brought it:

Sam used the time to explain his plans to Gilly. “First the Citadel, to present Jon’s letters and tell them of Maester Aemon’s death. I expect the archmaesters will send a cart for his body. Then I will arrange for horses and a wagon to take you to my mother at Horn Hill. I will be back as soon as I can, but it may not be until the morrow.”

“The morrow,” she repeated, and gave him a kiss for luck.

At length Ser Gunthor reemerged and gave the signal for the chain to be opened so the Cinnamon Wind could slip through the boom to dock. Sam joined Kojja Mo and three of her archers near the gangplank as the swan ship was tying up, the Summer Islanders resplendent in the feathered cloaks they only wore ashore. He felt a shabby thing beside them in his baggy blacks, faded cloak, and salt-stained boots. “How long will you remain in port?”

“Two days, ten days, who can say? However long it takes to empty our holds and fill them again.” Kojja grinned. “My father must visit the grey maesters as well. He has books to sell.”

“Can Gilly stay aboard till I return?”

“Gilly can stay as long as she likes.”

I think its really obvious he fully intended on returning and left his things aboard the ship, it does not appear in his possession later in the chapter at any point, all he mentions bringing is Jon's letters..

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

Is it true that if you don't use it you lose it?

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

I think its really obvious he fully intended on returning and left his things aboard the ship, it does not appear in his possession later in the chapter at any point, all he mentions bringing is Jon's letters..

 

Gotcha. Thanks. I tried looking for a definite "list" to what he brought along.

[OuttaOldtown]

37 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Gotcha. Thanks. I tried looking for a definite "list" to what he brought along.

One thought I've had is that Marwyn an Co. had a meeting with Quhuru Mo and Kojja Mo before meeting with Sam. Alleras tells Sam that they knew he was coming, yet they left him waiting for the seneschal. Obviously it can't be proved but I think the clue is how casually he mentions traveling aboard the swan ship to Alleras when he is preparing to leave. The question I ask is did he speak to Sam to be educated on what Sam knows or is Marwyn educating Sam on glass candles? 

[Dorian Martell]

6 hours ago, Yuzzybus said:

No I do not think so.  He is much too old. :) I get what you are saying about an over abundance of secret bastard and Targ theories.  What else are we suppose to do while we wait for Winds of Winter.

This really. With a half decade or more between novels, there isn't much to do. 

6 hours ago, Yuzzybus said:

Never claimed it was hard evidence.  It is just colorful imagery that I thought could be overlooked that might have interesting implications.  Sourleaf means nothing.  Mysterious guy whose teeth look like there are on fire and spits fire is rushing of as fast as he can to join Dany.  Could mean something.

I know you never claimed hard evidence. I was just adding a bit of levity to the conversation. So does that mean that Yoren is a secret targ too? He lurved teh sourleaf. 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

38 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

One thought I've had is that Marwyn an Co. had a meeting with Quhuru Mo and Kojja Mo before meeting with Sam. Alleras tells Sam that they knew he was coming, yet they left him waiting for the seneschal. Obviously it can't be proved but I think the clue is how casually he mentions traveling aboard the swan ship to Alleras when he is preparing to leave. The question I ask is did he speak to Sam to be educated on what Sam knows or is Marwyn educating Sam on glass candles? 

I thought he saw Sam's arrival through his glass candles, but I could be wrong.