Daenerys = Dayne + Aerys

[Venus414]

On August 31, 2016 at 11:01 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The author uses names as clues occasionally, not constantly. He also uses them as names. Example: Ned Dayne has no actual connection to Ned Stark.  It has been strongly implied Ned Dayne was named after Ned Stark he was Jons "milk brother" None of the Freys with Targ names have any connection to the Targaryens. The freys likely named some kids after kings  there's probably more to that And so far as we know Hodor has no connection to House Frey. No idea where you think Hodor means Frey but he was an actual figure in Norse mythology that was led by another...None of that means you're wrong though. GRMhas said himself that he uses linguistics in names

Dany doesn't look like Ashara. She has purple eyes, and Ashara had purple eyes. There's no other similarity. Ashara's hair was dark, and while she was beautiful it's never said that she was beautiful in an otherworldly way like the Targaryens were.  Barristan Selmy said she looks almost exactly like her.... If she's Asharas plus a targ that would explain the hair

I agree about the lemons, just not necessarily what they indicate. There's no way a Targ-looking child was kept in Dorne for very long after Robert ascended the throne, thus Dany n't remember her time there. You have provided no argument for why it's not possible

The timeline and known facts work against your theory quite a bit. If you have Dany conceived during the war instead of at Harrenhal, it would be stronger. GRRM has stated that Dany is younger than Jon and he is no older than Robb is. Lyanna was in fact abducted and taken to Dorne. And Petyr Baelish didn't get to a position where he would know things or have a shot at manipulating them until after the war was long over.  I did say in my theory that she would have had to be conceived when Elia and Aerys were both in Kings landing before they died- that timeline adds up.  Not at the tourney.

Dany as a child of two Targs makes more sense for hatching the eggs than Dany as the child of a Targ and a Dayne. If Dayne blood were needed in addition to Targ blood, then Aegon V and/or his siblings should have been able to hatch dragon eggs because their mother was Dyanna Dayne. Doesn't mean Dany couldn't still hatch eggs, just that it's not the best argument you have.  Watch Preston Jacobs dragon genetics vids and get back to me on that

Okay, so if as you say Dany is the result of Aerys+Ashara, and Jon is Mance+Lyanna, then that means Aegon is actually Rhaegar and Elia's son and the Dragon that was Promised. TDtwP has to be the result of Aerys+Rhaella's line, and Aegon is the only one left who could fit that criteria, since GRRM said that there's no doubt little Rhaenys was in fact killed. Or there is no TDtwP and Westeros is screwed.  Westeros is screwed... But I don't believe I said anything about Aegon/fAegon, because I'm not sure myself... I only feel he's likely not true either.   People (like Rhaeghar, Aerys, Mel, and master Aemon were wrong about prophesies all of the time.  So I don't give it much weight. 

Oh and by the way, Rhaella DID die shortly after giving birth to Dany per known facts. So you're entirely right that she could have died in childbirth. One of the things that has always connected Jon, Dany, and Tyrion is the fact that their mothers died giving birth to them. Only death can pay for life and all that.  It never said anywhere that mom had to die in childbirth to... What exactly? Be a main character? That's just a silly connection I blv fans have attached meaning too.  

 

Sorry i had ad to comment like this, for some reason it wouldn't allow me to comment underneath.  Anyways , I don't feel any points here have really proved its impossible.

[Venus414]

On September 6, 2016 at 6:35 AM, Elisabetta Duò said:

This is just speculation but enjoyable and it would be so interesting as a plot twist... let's have some fun.

I am not into Daenerys as a character so I've never posted about her, but it always struck me that she is the only main character (besides Cersei) who never lost her defining quality.

Her identity is defined by her claim as Aerys' trueborn daughter.

All the main characters lost their identity in ASoIaF: Jon was a Snow who wished he was a Stark... but he became a NW brother, then a wildling and anyway he's a Targaryen; Jamie's identity had always been defined by his fighting skills and he lost them with his right, hand so he doesn't know who he is anymore; Tyrion lost his Lannister identity and all the money after killing Tywin and if the show is to be believed, he will fight against his own family and he's a sort of self-made man at this point; the Starks kids had to put their Stark identity aside (Arya kinda became no-one, Sansa is living as a Stone, etc.) and so on ... in all this, Daenerys has never lost what defines her as a character (yes, she went through a lot... but even when she was sold to the Dothraki and then in every moment of her life, she always had this carved-in-stone certainty that she is Aerys trueborn daughter and after Viserys' death, the true heir to the throne).

What if she can't lose her defining quality because she never had it? because she never was what she believes to be and what we are supposed to believe she is...and we as readers can't be told yet?!

it would be great if somebody whose idea of herself, from the start, has been defined basically by her own name only - first during her childhood because they had to run away, then all her adult life has been dedicated to find a way to take her seat back and she talks all the time about 'what is hers,' etc. - ended up being a fake.

The exact reverse would be that Aegon, who has always been fAegon (GRRM placed multiple clues to make us costantly doubt/believe he's fake, so much that he's been called fAegon by the fans since he first appeared in the books) might be the true heir...and still he will die, while the fake will sit the IT.

Or maybe fAegon is fAegon, but Jon is the true heir, (if R+L married and there was some kind annullment of Rhaegar's previous marriage, maybe because of the poor health of his wife),  so that none of them gets what they want: Daenerys wanted the throne but it's not hers.. Jon didn't want it, but it's his (fAegon will end up dead in any case, otherwise he would have been introduced in the show).

Or maybe fAegon is fAegon, but Jon and Daenerys are both bastards... then what about big empty words like 'true heir' and 'rights'? who sits on the Ithrone? History is full of people who became kings and queens with super-week claims in confused situations.

If any of this is true, it would be interesting to see how Daenerys copes: would she be able to step aside and let another claim the throne, after all her life has been dedicated to that? Would she ever learn she is a fake or would other characters make sure she doesn't know, she never knows all her life has been a lie? Would she die learn and conceil the secret herself? Would Jon ever accept the throne or he would leave it to her in any case? Could she rule, knowing she's a fake?

Again, it's pure speculation but this twist would be very interesting narratively speaking.

The only problem would be that Jon is already a boring character as he is (the reclutant hero who somehow never wants power but always gets it) and he's the character with the biggerst plot armour (of course he is going to 'resurrect' in the books too, even if I trust it will be less 'oh well, I'm alive let's have a beer' than in the show): now if he was also the trueborn son of R+L, that would make him even more unsympathetic, with good peace of the "I don't want stereotypes / I don't want the classical hero in my books" kind of affirmations. People, even people who are more clever than him, work their asses off for ages to gain power and stay alive and he is always offered it on a silver plate by other people (even more so on the show) or just gets it by chance or out of sheer luck, without doing anything to gain it... and at times even without being the most suited for the task..and he  accepts reclutantly because 'oh not wanting power means he's so noble'. I mean, meh.

Yes!! That she climbs to the top based on a lie as a trueborn princess (but she Believed she is) 

There is Such a strong "bastard means you're nothing" theme I the story, to have literally most of the main characters be bastards (like Joffery...maybe even Cersei....) sit the throne is almost comical isn't it? 

 

 

(This is a post for another day but...) 

I I am not buying R+L=J at this time.  The show might do it...... But I doubt it at least in the books.  Bran saw a pregnant woman in the crypts of winterfell and Ygritteand Mance made all kinds of reference to Bael the bard, then Mance is Abel... I think Mance is Jons father. 

 

Even if if he is Rhaeghats son, Polygamy wasn't practiced since Jahaerys the conciliator

 

[Venus414]

22 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Love a good Dany tin foil conspiracy!

So first it's kinda obvious but I don't think anyone mentioned that Daenerys is "Ser Dayne" rearranged.

And it sure seems like Ned Dayne was named after Ned Stark...

The first Daenerys was married to the Prince of Dorne, who built the water gardens for her (A place of happy children and citrus fruit). Also, supposedly it was Daemon's love of Daenerys that began the Blackfyre rebellion.

There are lots of relevant quotes but some of my favorites:

"Yet last night he had dreamt of Rhaegar's children. Lord Tywin had laid the bodies beneath the Iron Throne, wrapped in the crimson cloaks of his house guard. That was clever of him; the blood did not show so badly against the red cloth. The little princess had been barefoot, still dressed in her bed gown, and the boy … the boy …

Ned could not let that happen again. The realm could not withstand a second mad king, another dance of blood and vengeance. He must find some way to save the children."

Then later that chapter... Ned speaks to Cersei, in the Godswood...

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

 

"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."

 

"Exile," she said. "A bitter cup to drink from."

 

"A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar's children," Ned said, "and kinder than you deserve. Your father and your brothers would do well to go with you. Lord Tywin's gold will buy you comfort and hire swords to keep you safe. You shall need them. I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert's wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be."

 

This chapter just screams that there is something going on we don't understand... Might it just be R+L=J, of course it might, but the repeated references to saving the children makes me doubt...

 

Then Eddard basically lays out what he thinks should be done with a child one wants hidden from Robert's wrath (be they the Lanniscest kids, or dragonspawn), he tells her to flee across the sea...

 

Finally, just want to point out the "biter cup to drink from", aka exile, as I believe it is referenced again in the House of the Undying "drink from the cup of ice"...

 

just throwing some stuff at the wall to see what sticks!

 

You are awesome.  I'm following you now.

[Venus414]

21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If you look back to Viserys account of leaving Dragonstone with his mother, it varies very much from Jaime's recollection of Rhaella leaving Dragonstone. 

Viserys recalls that it was a midnight flight in a black sailed ship from King's Landing to Dragonstone.  Jaime recalls that a hooded Rhaella left one morning in a royal wheelhouse shortly after she was raped by Aerys, and there is no mention of Viserys.

There is a bit of a discrepancy between the two accounts.  Viserys story is fairly odd, because when Rhaella left King's Landing there probably would have been no need for a midnight flight in a black sailed ship, because at the time the rebellion had no navy to speak of.  It doesn't make much sense unless of course Rahella wasn't fleeing from the rebels, but was instead fleeing from Aerys, since based on past experience he was in the habit of raping her after he burned people alive.

Which makes me wonder, who it was that Jaime saw enter the wheelhouse?  I have a crackpot notion that it could have been Ashara operating under a glamour basically act as Rhaella's whipping girl and take the rape meant for her.

It sounds ludicrous, I know, but with so many parallels and homages to the King Arthur myths, maybe not so ridiculous.  After all, King Arthur was conceived only after his father magically disguised himself as the husband of another woman, and had intercourse with her under false pretenses.  This would be an inverse of the King Arthur myth.

Awesome point!

[Venus414]

15 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Why would Ashara grieve for the man who dishonoured her if it was Aerys?  And why would Barristan lament the fact he didn't win at the tourney else Ashara might not have looked to Stark?  That makes no sense if it was Lyanna.

This theory relies heavily on Ned passing out a lot for extended periods.

So if a king raped you that's not worthy of grieving? Your question makes no sense.. Because Barristan loved her and thought she died because of Ned (he had only ever heard rumors)..Ned did pass out for extended periods, so I'm not sure what you're saying.

21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Actually this isn't necessarily true.  At the time of Dany's birth, House Targaryen had not been able to hatch a dragon in well over a hundred years.  They had also married with so many other families, that their bloodlines were not exactly the same bloodline as Aegon the Conqueror.  There were a number of Targaryen off shoots that split off from the "royal" Targaryen line around the time that the Targaryen apparently lost their connections with their dragons.  Baela Targaryen was a dragon rider and her progeny split from the royal Targaryens and became part of House Velaryon.  We also have the Longwaters, House Plumm, and of course House Blackfyre all of whom split off from the main Targaryen branch.  Perhaps the purple in the Daynes' eyes comes from intermarriage with some of these Targaryen offshoots.

My gut feeling is that Dany may be a descendant from a number of these disparate bloodlines that came back together when she was born.  Ironically being the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella probably would have meant that she could not have hatched her dragons if indeed this is an inheritable trait.

Yes!!! if she has old Val blood on Both sides... It is Very likely she could have the blood to hatch a dragon.  And anyways, seems like some blood magic was  involved in the hatching as well, I think we're meant to believe it was unique for hatchlings. 

[theblackdragonI]

On 29/08/2016 at 6:36 PM, Venus414 said:

Because the author uses names as clues constantly,  this is a clue to Martells interest in the pact; they cherished the first one.  She lived in Dorne, where lemon trees are abundant.

GRM wrote long family histories for a reason.  Genetics and names.  

 

House Dayne is amazing and it's been suggested the those from the great empire of the Dawn taught the old Val's to control dragons in the first place.  Ancient house, Dawn, Dani looks like Ashara.. 

I feel really confident about this.

How does he use names as clues constantly? 

We are very clearly told that lemon trees can be found in the courtyards of Braavos' rich. I think the lemon trees in Dorne is a red herring.

Where is it suggested that those from the great empire of the Dawn taught Valyrians to tame dragons? The Valyrians were shepherds until they discovered dragons and learned how to tame them. Why would people from Yi Ti not tame the dragons themselves if they knew how? 

You're making a lot of conclusions that just don't add up. Why would Aerys hide this affair? He didn't like his wife and repeatedly raped and attacked her. He never bothered to hide his other mistresses, he was the Mad King! Dany doesn't look like Ashara? Dany has Targaryen features: silver-blonde hair, Ashara had dark hair. They do have similar eyes but most Daynes had those eyes. You realise that Littlefinger was a teen during Robert Rebellion and would have no funds to hire men to "make up" Lyanna's kidnapping. Furthermore, why would he craft a plan like that and then challenge Brandon Stark an infamously wild and talented swordsman to a duel? Why would Ashara be in Dragonstone? She was Elia's handmaiden and we know she was at Starfall towards the end of the rebellion. There would be absolutely no reason for her to be at Dragonstone.

[Dorian Martell]

3 hours ago, Venus414 said:

Yes!! That she climbs to the top based on a lie as a trueborn princess (but she Believed she is) 

There is Such a strong "bastard means you're nothing" theme I the story, to have literally most of the main characters be bastards (like Joffery...maybe even Cersei....) sit the throne is almost comical isn't it? 

(This is a post for another day but...) 

I I am not buying R+L=J at this time.  The show might do it...... But I doubt it at least in the books.  Bran saw a pregnant woman in the crypts of winterfell and Ygritteand Mance made all kinds of reference to Bael the bard, then Mance is Abel... I think Mance is Jons father. 

Even if if he is Rhaeghats son, Polygamy wasn't practiced since Jahaerys the conciliator

The bastard means nothing is to support Jon snow and be the pain that drives him to greatness.  
As for R+L=J, it all but a done deal without the show. Any other possibility requires far too many assumtions bordering on fan fic to work 
and it does not matter whatn the last time Polygamy was practiced. The point is that it was practiced in written historical memory

20 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

How does he use names as clues constantly? 

We are very clearly told that lemon trees can be found in the courtyards of Braavos' rich. I think the lemon trees in Dorne is a red herring.

Where is it suggested that those from the great empire of the Dawn taught Valyrians to tame dragons? The Valyrians were shepherds until they discovered dragons and learned how to tame them. Why would people from Yi Ti not tame the dragons themselves if they knew how? 

You're making a lot of conclusions that just don't add up. Why would Aerys hide this affair? He didn't like his wife and repeatedly raped and attacked her. He never bothered to hide his other mistresses, he was the Mad King! Dany doesn't look like Ashara? Dany has Targaryen features: silver-blonde hair, Ashara had dark hair. They do have similar eyes but most Daynes had those eyes. You realise that Littlefinger was a teen during Robert Rebellion and would have no funds to hire men to "make up" Lyanna's kidnapping. Furthermore, why would he craft a plan like that and then challenge Brandon Stark an infamously wild and talented swordsman to a duel? Why would Ashara be in Dragonstone? She was Elia's handmaiden and we know she was at Starfall towards the end of the rebellion. There would be absolutely no reason for her to be at Dragonstone.

 Woah there captian rational. This is the westeros forum here 

[maudisdottir]

6 hours ago, Venus414 said:

So if a king raped you that's not worthy of grieving? Your question makes no sense.. Because Barristan loved her and thought she died because of Ned (he had only ever heard rumors)..Ned did pass out for extended periods, so I'm not sure what you're saying.

She grieved FOR the man who dishonoured her.  As in, she wept because he was dead, not because he raped her.  So why would she be sad that the crazy old man who raped her had died?  She would rejoice.

Barristan doesn't say Ned, he says "Stark".  Brandon is the one who dishonoured her, not Ned.  And certainly not Aerys.  Barristan wishes he could have won that day, then maybe the crowning of Lyanna wouldn't have happened (and hence avoiding the entire rebellion) but most importantly for Barristan, he would be in a better position to woo Ashara if he was the champion, and she would have looked to him instead of Brandon.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 9/6/2016 at 3:46 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Actually this isn't necessarily true.  At the time of Dany's birth, House Targaryen had not been able to hatch a dragon in well over a hundred years.  They had also married with so many other families, that their bloodlines were not exactly the same bloodline as Aegon the Conqueror.  There were a number of Targaryen off shoots that split off from the "royal" Targaryen line around the time that the Targaryen apparently lost their connections with their dragons.  Baela Targaryen was a dragon rider and her progeny split from the royal Targaryens and became part of House Velaryon.  We also have the Longwaters, House Plumm, and of course House Blackfyre all of whom split off from the main Targaryen branch.  Perhaps the purple in the Daynes' eyes comes from intermarriage with some of these Targaryen offshoots.

My gut feeling is that Dany may be a descendant from a number of these disparate bloodlines that came back together when she was born.  Ironically being the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella probably would have meant that she could not have hatched her dragons if indeed this is an inheritable trait.

So you assume that dragonhatching or lack thereof depends on bloodline?  If that were the case, then the Targaryens who were around right when the dragons died off should have been able to hatch more of them. It seems to tie in more with the strength of magic in the world which happens to be on the rise at the start of the series.

GRRM has said that the Daynes have no Valyrian blood, so intermarriage with Targs of any stripe is unlikely. 

 

On 9/6/2016 at 2:53 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

What about all the Danaerys before her who's parents were neither Daynes nor named Aerys?

That would be one. Her parents were Aegon IV and Naerys. 

On 9/6/2016 at 8:55 PM, maudisdottir said:

Why would Ashara grieve for the man who dishonoured her if it was Aerys?  And why would Barristan lament the fact he didn't win at the tourney else Ashara might not have looked to Stark?  That makes no sense if it was Lyanna.

This theory relies heavily on Ned passing out a lot for extended periods.

Turning to Lyanna for help works no matter who the man was. Barristan may not even know which Stark she looked to for help.

What bugs me is that people keep insisting Ashara got pregnant at Harrenhal. Why do so many people not know that a medieval girl did not have to have sex to be considered dishonored?
 

[maudisdottir]

9 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Turning to Lyanna for help works no matter who the man was. Barristan may not even know which Stark she looked to for help.

He never says she looked for help.  Barristan says she "looked to Stark" and everything prior to that in the passage indicates she "looked to" Stark in a romantic sense, in that if Barry had been able to turn Ashara's head she might not have got involved with the man who eventually dishonoured her and who she grieved for after his death.

People are assuming that she looked for help when nothing in the text says that at all.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Venus 414, It's been implied by the readers, not by the author. Ned Stark's name is Eddard. Ned Dayne's name is Edric. And Edric born wasn't born until a couple years after the war. Wylla nursed Jon, and Wylla nursed Edric, but not anywhere near the same time.

Hodor's real name is Walder.

Barristan never says Dany looks almost exactly like Ashara. 

I apologize for not spelling out that people do not remember things from their infancy, and that it would not have been safe to keep Daenerys in Dorne from her birth to an age at which she would actually be able to remember having lived there. With a genius IQ (which she may or may not have) the youngest age Dany could possibly have memories from, even in a fantasy series, would be late in her 2nd year. So close to three years. No way they could hide her that long, and tell a now three-years-older Viserys that she was his baby sister who has been mysteriously absent all this time. Even Viserys is not that much of an idiot. When he was eight they could have switched another fairly new baby with his mother's baby, but no way they bring in a toddler years later and convince 11 year old Viserys that it's his sister.

I apologize. I somehow missed that about the baby being conceived at court. Thank you for not making it Harrenhal.

I like some of Preston Jacobs' ideas. Dornish Master Plan, for example. But he relies too much on things that are not backed up by the text. I'm not one of the people on this site who run him down, but I understand why he doesn't get much respect in the fandom. The author has said nothing about dragon genetics, so it would be awesome if PJ managed to figure out something with practically zero clues. I'll check out the videos.

The thing about three major characters having had mothers die giving birth to them goes back to the entire theme of sacrifice and how only death can pay for life. The three characters who have that in common are also the three most likely to be heads of the dragon, and probably dragon riders. Probably not a coincidence.  It's been suggested that each mother's death corresponds to Azor Ahai's attempts to forge Lightbringer. I don't really agree with that, but I can see where people could get the idea.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

3 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

He never says she looked for help.  Barristan says she "looked to Stark" and everything prior to that in the passage indicates she "looked to" Stark in a romantic sense, in that if Barry had been able to turn Ashara's head she might not have got involved with the man who eventually dishonoured her and who she grieved for after his death.

People are assuming that she looked for help when nothing in the text says that at all.

I have to disagree. Barristan is thinking of Ashara in a romantic sense yes, but his comment about her looking to Stark actually can't be romantic in nature for the following reason...

Alter the events and have Barristan winning the tournament. He crowns Ashara QoLaB. Nothing happens. There can't be a romance because Barristan isn't the type to break his vows. She could not "look to" him for love or anything else of that kind. What she could "look to" him for would be help or protection. Therefore "looked to" does not have romantic connotations.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

10 hours ago, Venus414 said:

<snip

(This is a post for another day but...) 

I I am not buying R+L=J at this time.  The show might do it...... But I doubt it at least in the books.  Bran saw a pregnant woman in the crypts of winterfell and Ygritteand Mance made all kinds of reference to Bael the bard, then Mance is Abel... I think Mance is Jons father. 

 

Even if if he is Rhaeghats son, Polygamy wasn't practiced since Jahaerys the conciliator

 

Not to me I know, but I wanted to mention a couple of things.

It's been established pretty well  that Ned found Lyanna in Dorne. It's very unlikely that a member of the Night's Watch, as Mance was at the time, could have freely roamed through Westeros during a war, gotten as far as Dorne, gotten to Lyanna, gotten her pregnant, and then gone back to the Wall and nobody noticed anything odd. If he'd been out on a recruiting mission (which would not have been fruitful during a war) he'd have had other men with him, like the black brothers at Harrenhal were three. The only way Mance as Jon's father works is if Lyanna wasn't in Dorne.

On the issue of polygamy, it doesn't matter really. Jon can be a dragonseed and still ride a dragon and help save Westeros. But it is possible that Rhaegar quietly went to the High Septon and got some kind of dispensation either to take a second wife because Elia couldn't have any more children and childhood mortality in Westeros sucks, or a waiver of some kind allowing him to have legitimate children with a mistress (as Pope whoever offered Henry VIII over the Anne Boleyn thing).

If you'd like another option though, Rhaegar doesn't have to be Jon's father, but Ned had to think he was. It's the only way Ned's not telling his wife the truth at some point makes any kind of sense. So if it wasn't Rhaegar (but Ned assumed it was) and it wasn't Mance...the only other option is Arthur Dayne. This would have the advantage of a legitimized Jon having the possibility of being named Sword of the Morning and wielding Dawn against the Others. 

[maudisdottir]

11 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I have to disagree. Barristan is thinking of Ashara in a romantic sense yes, but his comment about her looking to Stark actually can't be romantic in nature for the following reason...

Alter the events and have Barristan winning the tournament. He crowns Ashara QoLaB. Nothing happens. There can't be a romance because Barristan isn't the type to break his vows. She could not "look to" him for love or anything else of that kind. What she could "look to" him for would be help or protection. Therefore "looked to" does not have romantic connotations.

Quote

"She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her.  How could she?  He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy.  No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either.  If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He's saying that he should have just told her he loved her, despite his vows, because keeping silent didn't help in the end.  Barristan laments that he wasn't able to win Ashara's love, which might have saved her honour and eventually her life.  In hindsight he would have broken his vows if it meant he could have stopped everything that came after.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 9/6/2016 at 3:24 PM, Frey family reunion said:

If you look back to Viserys account of leaving Dragonstone with his mother, it varies very much from Jaime's recollection of Rhaella leaving Dragonstone. 

Viserys recalls that it was a midnight flight in a black sailed ship from King's Landing to Dragonstone.  Jaime recalls that a hooded Rhaella left one morning in a royal wheelhouse shortly after she was raped by Aerys, and there is no mention of Viserys.

There is a bit of a discrepancy between the two accounts.  Viserys story is fairly odd, because when Rhaella left King's Landing there probably would have been no need for a midnight flight in a black sailed ship, because at the time the rebellion had no navy to speak of.  It doesn't make much sense unless of course Rahella wasn't fleeing from the rebels, but was instead fleeing from Aerys, since based on past experience he was in the habit of raping her after he burned people alive.

Which makes me wonder, who it was that Jaime saw enter the wheelhouse?  I have a crackpot notion that it could have been Ashara operating under a glamour basically act as Rhaella's whipping girl and take the rape meant for her.

It sounds ludicrous, I know, but with so many parallels and homages to the King Arthur myths, maybe not so ridiculous.  After all, King Arthur was conceived only after his father magically disguised himself as the husband of another woman, and had intercourse with her under false pretenses.  This would be an inverse of the King Arthur myth.

Um...that would be leaving FOR Dragonstone. Of course the account varies. Viserys was eight years old. He saw things differently than someone twice his age did, and mostly he saw things in relation to how they affected him.

Rhaella left the Red Keep in a wheelhouse. She had to get to the harbor to board a ship to go to Dragonstone. Because Dragonstone is an island, remember?  Viserys did go with her, and it would have been after dark. I have an eight year old. It would not surprise me if she thought dark was equivalent to midnight. Fleeing in the night and using black sails makes sense no matter who one is running from. But we know that Aerys ordered Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone to keep them safe. Aerys had moments of lucidity but I seriously doubt it would be a stretch for a paranoid pyromaniac to be worried about enemies in the local harbor during a war that was meant to remove him from the throne.

Ashara was dismissed from Elia's service at some time between Harrenhal and the start of the war, so it wasn't likely she was in King's Landing at that late date, particularly since she would have been dismissed from Dragonstone, not KL. From what we know of Rhaella, she would not willingly subject another to something like Aerys' fire-lust. Not to mention that if Ashara was sent to Dragonstone, then she couldn't have been at Starfall to fake her death when Ned showed up with Arthur's sword. She would have been early in the pregnancy and rumors about stillbirth wouldn't work. The timeline doesn't allow for this particular idea. 

Uh, no. Not really. Far more to actual history from quite a few centuries later, with ties to the kind of myths that are prevalent in all cultures and pre-modern time periods and thus make for great worldbuilding and storytelling because they are familiar to readers. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

8 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

He's saying that he should have just told her he loved her, despite his vows, because keeping silent didn't help in the end.  Barristan laments that he wasn't able to win Ashara's love, which might have saved her honour and eventually her life.  In hindsight he would have broken his vows if it meant he could have stopped everything that came after.

Hindsight doesn't make any difference. If she had gone to him, he wouldn't have known then what he knows now, so he wouldn't have acted differently. With a time machine, sure. But he doesn't have one of them.

Crowning someone QoLaB does not mean winning their love necessarily. It's supposed to go to the most beautiful woman there. While Ashara would have been enormously flattered and pleased, there's no reason to assume she would have thought Barristan loved her, or that anything would happen between them if he did, based on that alone.

And I still don't see anything that says he would have gone as far as breaking his vows. 

If Ashara was unwilling in the dishonoring, then romance had nothing to do with it and she would have gone to someone afterwards for help. If she was willing and "looked to" her dishonorer for whatever all was involved in being dishonored, then she would have done so no matter who confessed love for her. A girl who is willing to cast aside all the rules, and all the precautions, for one guy, is not going to change her mind because someone who swore a vow of chastity says he loves her. If Ashara was the kind of girl to get dishonorable with the last guy to give her a compliment, Barristan wouldn't have loved her.  The idea that she would have been willing to throw everything to the wind and start a romance with Barristan is really unlikely when you remember that her brother was one of Barry's KG brothers, and the deadliest man in Westeros. A romance with Barry would have meant nothing but disgrace for Ashara, because he was in the KG for life. He would never have done that to her.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[maudisdottir]

But he regrets not telling her his feelings and that she never knew he loved her.  So (to me anyway) in that passage he's saying he should have told her he loved her and won the tourney so he could have crowned her.  He is absolutely talking about love and not about being her platonic friend/confidant.

[Frey family reunion]

7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

So you assume that dragonhatching or lack thereof depends on bloodline?  If that were the case, then the Targaryens who were around right when the dragons died off should have been able to hatch more of them. It seems to tie in more with the strength of magic in the world which happens to be on the rise at the start of the series.

GRRM has said that the Daynes have no Valyrian blood, so intermarriage with Targs of any stripe is unlikely. 
 

Yes I do think that genetics absolutely play a part in the dragon hatching/dragon riding abilities of the Targaryens.  This explains why they practiced incest and married or married back from their first cousins when necessary.  They were keeping a genetic component necessary to make a connection to their dragons within the family.  Now my guess is genetics played one part of the process, as did "magic" and perhaps even certain sacrifices like the ones we see leading up to the birth of Dany's Dragons. 

I think the Maesters and their allies knew that genetics played a component, which is why the Citadel and House Hightower and the Septs may have been so instrumental in trying to stop Targaryen polygamy and started arranging marriages to the Targaryens into Houses outside of House Velaryon.  

And if you look at when the dragons stopped hatching, it coincides to a point when a number of proven dragon "hatchets" and riders were being killed off in the Dance.  Many of the members of House Targaryen at the time, could no longer boast of being genetically the same as Aegon the Conqeror and his sisters.  And the bloodlines just continued to get "diluted" afterwards.  

But if you look at House Targaryen post-dance, it is basically comes from the line of Viserys II, who could not hatch or ride a dragon, and the daughter of a Lysien banker.  So if genetics did play a parti it is unlikely that this Targaryen line would have had the necessary genetics necessary. 

As for House Dayne, it would very  surprise me if they don't have some type of Targaryen bloodline in their recent family tree, which would explain some of their features, especially those found in Gerald Dayne who looks remarkably like a dragon lord according to Arianne.  Historically, they may not have Valyrian origins, but I think we'll definitely find out in the past several generations Targaren bloodlines (perhaps from a maternal line) found their way into their House.  But I suspect their House is not the only one with "hidden" Targaryen bloodlines.  I believe it was Ran who indicated that GRRM is keeping a tight lid on House Dayne's family tree.  I believe there is something to their recent history that he wants to unveil late in his story.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

9 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Um...that would be leaving FOR Dragonstone. Of course the account varies. Viserys was eight years old. He saw things differently than someone twice his age did, and mostly he saw things in relation to how they affected him.

Rhaella left the Red Keep in a wheelhouse. She had to get to the harbor to board a ship to go to Dragonstone. Because Dragonstone is an island, remember?  Viserys did go with her, and it would have been after dark. I have an eight year old. It would not surprise me if she thought dark was equivalent to midnight. Fleeing in the night and using black sails makes sense no matter who one is running from. But we know that Aerys ordered Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone to keep them safe. Aerys had moments of lucidity but I seriously doubt it would be a stretch for a paranoid pyromaniac to be worried about enemies in the local harbor during a war that was meant to remove him from the throne.

Oh good let's look at the sails! 

Man often under appreciated detail!

Honestly though I don't think you can dismiss this as a kid not knowing the hour of night... It's pretty clearly a descrepancy... To the quotes!

Quote

sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword. 

So from Dany's first chapter we know she was told often by Viserys that it was a secret midnight flight (though I wouldn't fixate on black sails when it makes sense that a Targ ship would have red dragons on a black sail)

Quote

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

But wait, Jaime remembers her LEAVING in the morning... So the sail would be during the day, even a kid can't mistake that for midnight, but worth noting there is no mention of Viserys...

So in conclusion:

GRRM made a mistake (no fun)

Viserys was lying to Dany

It wasn't Rhaella that Jaime saw 

However you cut it the discrepancy is real...

[OuttaOldtown]

Produce one quote that connects Aerys and Ashara, from the books, not your imagination..

10 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

He never says she looked for help.  Barristan says she "looked to Stark" and everything prior to that in the passage indicates she "looked to" Stark in a romantic sense, in that if Barry had been able to turn Ashara's head she might not have got involved with the man who eventually dishonoured her and who she grieved for after his death.

People are assuming that she looked for help when nothing in the text says that at all.

I agree with you 100%, it's hysterical how people ignore clues to support their tinfoil theories..