The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II

[snake]

snake, first let me say I appreciate the thoughtfulness and tenor of your posts, even if I disagree with them. With regards to the above, the critical part is how these three particular men would handle the events of Robert's Rebellion. Not just the problems of the Kingsguard as an institution. Ser Gerold Hightower, Ser Oswell Whent, and, most especially, Ser Arthur Dayne are held up as the epitome of knighthood and what a member of the kingsguard should be. For them the idea that their oaths meant loyalty to the Iron Throne, whoever sat on it, is totally unbelievable. Certainly their responses to Ned rule out the possiblility they would ever consider Robert the rightful King of Westeros. Yes, they must feel they have failed because Rhaegar, Aerys, Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys are all dead. But they have a vow to fulfill still, and that vow is to defend their king at all cost. That includes at the cost of their own honor, if as you suggest they felt leaving the Tower to be running away. I don't see it that way. It seems clear to me that these men fulfilled there vows, dying in defense of the heir to the throne, not throwing away their lives when their king sat on Dragonstone. I see them as intelligent, honorable men who make a purposeful decision to stand and fight, knowing that fulfilling their oaths will likely lead to their deaths. I don't see them as men who are governed by pride or a mindless obedience to their last order. I'm not sure what more I can say at this point to convince you of what seems obvious to me. Perhaps I'm delusional on this topic, but I think not.

SFDanny,

Well, needless to say we are miles apart on this and things are not likely to change so there's not much point on discussing this further, although the discussion has been more enjoyable than most. I'll have to wait until some new poster decides to open this can of worms and then accost them with my views. It does sadden me to think that after all these years of "informing" people of what i consider to be the actual events that had taken place that I have so few converts. In fact I can only recall one ally in these discussions and that was some years ago. Oh well. One must endeavor to perceiver.

[Hedge Knight]

Why is Ned fighting the 3 Knights of the KG? And why are the KG fighting Ned and his other knights. Ned and Lyanna are very close - Ned would never harm Lyanna nor her baby. So I can't figure out why there is a big conflict if the KG are actually there to protect Lyanna and baby against Ned??

I do believe that R + L = Jon and that Jon is not a bastard. Many points have been brought up. Here are 2 that I havent seen in this thread (but maybe here earlier??)

In AGOT " Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. "

Ned doesnt say that Jon is his son which would be the more normal way to say it...but Jon is of my blood which could mean that he is Lyanna's son.

Then on the next page when Cat tells Ned to take Jon with him to KL:

"You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name . . . you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned."

Again, Ned doesn't say Jon is a bastard, the more normal way of phrasing the reply. He says that Jon has a bastard's name. It leaves it open that perhaps Jon isnt really a bastard.

[Godot]

Why is Ned fighting the 3 Knights of the KG? And why are the KG fighting Ned and his other knights. Ned and Lyanna are very close - Ned would never harm Lyanna nor her baby. So I can't figure out why there is a big conflict if the KG are actually there to protect Lyanna and baby against Ned??

1) They were ordered to watch over Rhaegar's mistress. Besides, Ned was one of the leaders in Robert's rebellion. Of course they'd oppose him.

In AGOT " Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. "

Ned doesnt say that Jon is his son which would be the more normal way to say it...but Jon is of my blood which could mean that he is Lyanna's son.

We know.

Then on the next page when Cat tells Ned to take Jon with him to KL:

"You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name . . . you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned."

Again, Ned doesn't say Jon is a bastard, the more normal way of phrasing the reply. He says that Jon has a bastard's name. It leaves it open that perhaps Jon isnt really a bastard.

Ned never mentally thinks of Jon as his son, but yes Jon is a bastard. In the chapter of Agot where he visits the brothel he thinks of Jon as a bastard.

[Hedge Knight]

In thinking about why are the Kingsguard fighting Ned - it isn't about Lyanna. They must be protecting the heirs to the throne. I'm speculating that Rhaegars 2 children are there. That is the only thing that would make sense. Why else would 3 of the 7 KG be there when the king, the prince (Rhaegar) and then the other heirs (Vicerys) and unborn Dany are elsewhere. So perhaps the children were switched earlier and the real Aegon and Rhaenys were at the TOJ.

And maybe Lyanna's asking of Ned to promise was more than just taking care of Jon. Perhaps it also was to take the children safely to Dorne???

[Godot]

They must be protecting the heirs to the throne. I'm speculating that Rhaegars 2 children are there.

Rhaegar's children were dead by then.

That is the only thing that would make sense. Why else would 3 of the 7 KG be there when the king a, the prince (Rhaegar) and then the otherheirs (Vicerys) and unborn Dany are elsewhere. So perhaps the children were switched and the real Aegon and Rhaenys were at the TOJ.

Rhaegar was dead, Aerys was dead, Viserys and Daenerys were out of their reach, and Rhaegar had commanded them to guard Lyanna.

And maybe Lyanna's asking of Ned to promise was more than taking care of Jon. Perhaps also to take the children safely to Dorne???

Then where does her pregnancy factor into this?

[Hedge Knight]

1) They were ordered to watch over Rhaegar's mistress. Besides, Ned was one of the leaders in Robert's rebellion. Of course they'd oppose him.

They wouldn't oppose Ned - Lyanna's brother. Ned's not goingto hurt her nor her baby.

[Hedge Knight]

Rhaegar's children were dead by then.

Then where does her pregnancy factor into this?

1. Not if they were switched and brought to the TOJ.

2. Ned would protect Lyanna's child. So why are the KG fighting to the death if Ned wasnt going to hurt Lyanna or her child? The only answer I can think of is"Because they were protecting someone else as well. An heir to the throne"

[Ser Bruce the Hound KG]

They wouldn't oppose Ned - Lyanna's brother. Ned's not goingto hurt her nor her baby.

Ned is Honourable they Know is honourable but the fear may have been that he because of his honour he would tell Robert and Robert not Ned would kill the baby and we still have Tywin Lannister with his verage out there (though they would not know that)

[Godot]

They wouldn't oppose Ned - Lyanna's brother. Ned's not goingto hurt her nor her baby.

They DID oppose Ned so I'm not sure how much weight this carries.

1. Not if they were switched and brought to the TOJ.

2. Ned would protect Lyanna's child. So why are the KG fighting to the death if Ned wasnt going to hurt Lyanna or her child? The only answer I can think of is"Because they were protecting someone else as well. An heir to the throne"

Then I have to ask... who did this, and how and why did they do it?

[SFDanny]

1) They were ordered to watch over Rhaegar's mistress. Besides, Ned was one of the leaders in Robert's rebellion. Of course they'd oppose him.

I just went over this with others, but again they wouldn't oppose Ned if they have to fulfill their oaths to protect their king, and that king is in Dragonstone. They would be long gone. Their oath to defend their king has priority over all other orders, and at the time of the battle at the Tower of Joy there are no members of the Kingsguard on Dragonstone. As Ned says, that is where he expects these men to be. The most obvious reason the three Kingsguard stay at the Tower of Joy and fight Ned is because the child there, not Viserys in Dragonstone, is the Targaryen heir to the throne - not a bastard child.

Ned never mentally thinks of Jon as his son, but yes Jon is a bastard. In the chapter of Agot where he visits the brothel he thinks of Jon as a bastard.

Even if you read the passage as snake and others have suggested and not the way I suggest as an alternative, it doesn't mean Jon is a bastard. It would mean Ned thinks Rhaegar and Lyanna never married. Each POV in the series operates under different assumptions. Some are correct and some are misleading. You assume Ned knows the truth about Rhaegar and Lyanna when there is no surety he does. As has been discussed on the previous page, there are other alternatives that fit quite well into the known facts.

Hedge Knight, Martin has told us that Rhaenys is dead. He has not been as clear about Aegon, but even if your theory is correct it could only be Aegon, not Rhaenys, at the Tower.

[Hedge Knight]

They DID oppose Ned so I'm not sure how much weight this carries.

Then I have to ask... who did this, and how and why did they do it?

That is the whole point I am making. They DID oppose Ned!! but for a different reason than you are suggesting. I dont believe they would oppose Ned in a fight to the death if it were just Lyanna and Lyanna's baby at the TOJ. There had to be someone else there whom they thought Ned would capture, hurt or kill. And that someone had to be heir to the throne, as SF Dany has pointed out.

Who did this?? It must have been an order from Rhaegar and he did it to proect his child/children. Perhaps he thought that if he lost the battle, they would be safer in Dorne - the TOJ is close to Dorne.

[snake]

Another thought just occurred to me. If Jon was the Targaryen heir and Lyanna was Rhaegar's lawful wife that would make her Queen Regent. So the Kingsguard would be bound by their vows to do her bidding. Now, since they fought against Ned and his friends to prevent them from entering the ToJ Lyanna must have given them orders to do so or at least been aware of their plans and had no objection. Or would the three knights disregard any orders from her because she wasn't a Targaryen by blood? I must think on this some more but it does open a new can of worms.

[Godot]

That is the whole point I am making. They DID oppose Ned!! but for a different reason than you are suggesting. I dont believe they would oppose Ned in a fight to the death if it were just Lyanna and Lyanna's baby at the TOJ. There had to be someone else there whom they thought Ned would capture, hurt or kill. And that someone had to be heir to the throne, as SF Dany has pointed out.

Who did this?? It must have been an order from Rhaegar and he did it to proect his child/children. Perhaps he thought that if he lost the battle, they would be safer in Dorne - the TOJ is close to Dorne.

But they can't be in Dorne if they were murdered in KL. Nor did Rhaegar expect to lose, nor did he have any means of getting them there unnoticed, nor did would Aerys let him do anything of the sort, nor would it be possible to find appropriate substitutes, nor was Rhaegar heartless enough to let two innocent children die(this part assumes that he somehow knew the exact outcome of the war two months after his death).

[SFDanny]

Another thought just occurred to me. If Jon was the Targaryen heir and Lyanna was Rhaegar's lawful wife that would make her Queen Regent. So the Kingsguard would be bound by their vows to do her bidding. Now, since they fought against Ned and his friends to prevent them from entering the ToJ Lyanna must have given them orders to do so or at least been aware of their plans and had no objection. Or would the three knights disregard any orders from her because she wasn't a Targaryen by blood? I must think on this some more but it does open a new can of worms.

I believe Queen Regent is a title conferred by the small council, it is not, just as with any regency, something that is assumed by the fact Lyanna is the mother of the underaged king. Given the members of the small council, after the sack of King's Landing, are held hostage by Robert (or dead) it is extremely unlikely they would have given the regency to Lyanna. We don't even know if the surviving members even knew where Lyanna was and the nature of her relationship to Rhaegar. There is also no indication that they had any of indication of Jon's birth. Of course, even if the council met as Jon was being born to give the regency over to Lyanna, her death in childbirth and the distance between the Tower of Joy and King's Landing make the point moot.

More importantly, would the Kingsguard follow orders from Lyanna before the birth of Jon? I think we can agree that the odds of that are increased immensely if she is Rhaegar's wife and not his mistress. Still, given the fact she is in labor, I doubt seriously that she participated very much in the decision to fight Ned. Having been there at the birth of my two children, I can say the idea of making military strategy decisions with someone in the transition stage of labor is better reserved for a comedy sketch. They're a little preoccupied.

[SFDanny]

That is the whole point I am making. They DID oppose Ned!! but for a different reason than you are suggesting. I dont believe they would oppose Ned in a fight to the death if it were just Lyanna and Lyanna's baby at the TOJ. There had to be someone else there whom they thought Ned would capture, hurt or kill. And that someone had to be heir to the throne, as SF Dany has pointed out.

Who did this?? It must have been an order from Rhaegar and he did it to proect his child/children. Perhaps he thought that if he lost the battle, they would be safer in Dorne - the TOJ is close to Dorne.

My point, Hedge Knight, is not that the kingsguard would only fight Ned to protect the baby Aegon. Far from it. The three knights know of the sack of King's Landing and the murder of Rhaegar's other children. They know that a Targaryen heir is in danger of the same fate in the hands of Robert's justice. There is every reason to believe that they would view the idea of turning Lyanna's child over to Ned as tantamount to a death sentence or at the very least a sentence of life-long captivity. They would fight to prevent that regardless of Jon's status, if they are half the knights we are told they are. More important is the fact they choose to be there while Viserys is in Dragonstone. Their oaths would indicate they should be with him if Viserys is the new king.

[snake]

I believe Queen Regent is a title conferred by the small council, it is not, just as with any regency, something that is assumed by the fact Lyanna is the mother of the underaged king. Given the members of the small council, after the sack of King's Landing, are held hostage by Robert (or dead) it is extremely unlikely they would have given the regency to Lyanna. We don't even know if the surviving members even knew where Lyanna was and the nature of her relationship to Rhaegar. There is also no indication that they had any of indication of Jon's birth. Of course, even if the council met as Jon was being born to give the regency over to Lyanna, her death in childbirth and the distance between the Tower of Joy and King's Landing make the point moot.

More importantly, would the Kingsguard follow orders from Lyanna before the birth of Jon? I think we can agree that the odds of that are increased immensely if she is Rhaegar's wife and not his mistress. Still, given the fact she is in labor, I doubt seriously that she participated very much in the decision to fight Ned. Having been there at the birth of my two children, I can say the idea of making military strategy decisions with someone in the transition stage of labor is better reserved for a comedy sketch. They're a little preoccupied.

Well, by the time Ned shows up at the ToJ the Small Council has declared Robert king so their role has already been established. Still, you are right about the Queen Regent part and Lyanna could not have been that.

However, being Rhaegar's wife and the mother of his last surviving child(as many here believe) would put her in a place of influence, I would think. Especially to men as obedient and loyal as the three present Kingsguard. And Lyanna went into labor how long before Ned arrived? Weeks? Days? Hours? So she had time to make plans after she learned of what happened to Rhaegar. Heck, it seems that they probably knew that Ned was coming for her and not Robert because they knew of what had happened at Storm's End so Lyanna must have known it was her brother who was on the way. So the fact that the Kingsguard were hell bent on keeping Ned from Lyanna must mean that she wished it so or that the three Kingsguard ignored any of her wishes and took it upon themselves to make certain Lord Eddard never got near Lyanna and the child.

ETA:

Their oaths would indicate they should be with him if Viserys is the new king.

Robert was the new king. He was crowned and annointed and accepted as such by the lords of Westeros.

[SFDanny]

Well, by the time Ned shows up at the ToJ the Small Council has declared Robert king so their role has already been established. Still, you are right about the Queen Regent part and Lyanna could not have been that.

However, being Rhaegar's wife and the mother of his last surviving child(as many here believe) would put her in a place of influence, I would think. Especially to men as obedient and loyal as the three present Kingsguard.

Certainly, if Lyanna is not a captive at the Tower of Joy she would have a say in what happened there. Would the kingsguard follow her orders? I would guess that would depend on what the orders were, but I don't think we can say Lyanna is in command, as wife or mistress, and all the events unfolded with her approval. If that is where you are headed with this line of reasoning.

And Lyanna went into labor how long before Ned arrived? Weeks? Days? Hours?

Weeks? Not possible. False labor can last that long, but real labor - I've never heard of such a thing. Days? Possible. Hours? More likely. First labors normally are longer than later pregnancies, but two to three days is very long and a day much more likely.

So she had time to make plans after she learned of what happened to Rhaegar. Heck, it seems that they probably knew that Ned was coming for her and not Robert because they knew of what had happened at Storm's End so Lyanna must have known it was her brother who was on the way. So the fact that the Kingsguard were hell bent on keeping Ned from Lyanna must mean that she wished it so or that the three Kingsguard ignored any of her wishes and took it upon themselves to make certain Lord Eddard never got near Lyanna and the child.

There are a lot of jumps in logic here. Why do you think Lyanna, or the Kingsguard must know Ned is headed their way? It certainly appears that their location was a secret. Even Ned's actions of arriving with only a small escort of his most trusted companions would point to his trying to keep this a secret. Why would we assume Lyanna and her protectors knew it would be Ned coming to get her instead of their making preparations to defend Lyanna from whomever came? At best they knew Ned was last seen at Storm's End which is a long way from the Tower of Joy.

The most straightforward reading of the situation is that Ned arrives while Lyanna is in labor. The Kingsguard confront him and his companions and refuse to hand over Lyanna because she is giving birth to their new king and they are sworn to protect him at all costs. At some point Lyanna becomes aware Ned is there and she shouts to him, probably to try to stop the fighting. The assumptions that Lyanna is responsible for the Kingsguard's decision to fight her brother just isn't warranted by what we know.

ETA:

Robert was the new king. He was crowned and annointed and accepted as such by the lords of Westeros.

I don't dispute this fact. I just don't understand why you think it would change the way these three men viewed Robert or their oaths? The answers they give to Ned and the fact they die fighting him speaks much more eloquently than I can about what they thought of Robert's claim to the throne. Heck, Ned's questions to them don't even indicate he thinks they would accept Robert as their King.

[snake]

Certainly, if Lyanna is not a captive at the Tower of Joy she would have a say in what happened there. Would the kingsguard follow her orders? I would guess that would depend on what the orders were, but I don't think we can say Lyanna is in command, as wife or mistress, and all the events unfolded with her approval. If that is where you are headed with this line of reasoning.

So she might have had some say in what went on but only if the three Kingsguard allowed it, if I understand you correctly. That's possible which means the events that took place with regards to Ned were not of her doing. I like that approach better because I'm hoping Lyanna wasn't as bad as that.

Weeks? Not possible. False labor can last that long, but real labor - I've never heard of such a thing. Days? Possible. Hours? More likely. First labors normally are longer than later pregnancies, but two to three days is very long and a day much more likely.

So probably hours before Ned gets there but still quite possible that she didn't go into labor until the fight began or after it was over.

There are a lot of jumps in logic here. Why do you think Lyanna, or the Kingsguard must know Ned is headed their way? It certainly appears that their location was a secret. Even Ned's actions of arriving with only a small escort of his most trusted companions would point to his trying to keep this a secret. Why would we assume Lyanna and her protectors knew it would be Ned coming to get her instead of their making preparations to defend Lyanna from whomever came? At best they knew Ned was last seen at Storm's End which is a long way from the Tower of Joy.

The most straightforward reading of the situation is that Ned arrives while Lyanna is in labor. The Kingsguard confront him and his companions and refuse to hand over Lyanna because she is giving birth to their new king and they are sworn to protect him at all costs. At some point Lyanna becomes aware Ned is there and she shouts to him, probably to try to stop the fighting. The assumptions that Lyanna is responsible for the Kingsguard's decision to fight her brother just isn't warranted by what we know.

Well, for one thing Lyanna is certain to realize that her brother would come looking for her. IMO, that's a given. Now, it also seems the people at the ToJ were well informed of what had happened at the Trident, Kingslanding, and Strom's End. It's no big stretch to think that they knew that Robert was not with Ned. And their location wasn't well known but it wasn't no huge secret, IMO. Ser Gerold located Rhaegar and sent him back to Kingslanding so from that point on I would think there were more than a handful of people who knew where Lyanna was or else Ned would have never found her in the first place. Ned arriving with a small escort of trusted friends was probably because he didn't expect trouble or felt he could compromise with the Kingsguard. I think the last thing Ned wanted was to fight these three but they were not going to give him little choice. I think that's fairly evident from the tone of Ned's dream.

So if Lyanna didn't want Ned stopped then the Kingsguard took it upon themselves to stop him even though Lyanna probably wanted Ned with her. Oh, and if the child had been a girl then the fight was all for naught, as Viserys was the proper targaryen heir.

I don't dispute this fact. I just don't understand why you think it would change the way these three men viewed Robert or their oaths? The answers they give to Ned and the fact they die fighting him speaks much more eloquently than I can about what they thought of Robert's claim to the throne. Heck, Ned's questions to them don't even indicate he thinks they would accept Robert as their King.

But legally speaking they were now serving a false king. Their oaths were to the realm and to serve and protect who the king was and at that point in time it was Robert. So their refusal to bend the knee had more to do with pride and a sense of shame for their sitting out the fighting when they should have died on the Trident or in Kingslanding. Or that's the way I'm thinking about it.

[Enguerrand]

But legally speaking they were now serving a false king. Their oaths were to the realm and to serve and protect who the king was and at that point in time it was Robert.

Could you direct me to the part in the series were you get this from? Especially "their oath is to realm" part because I seriously doubt any Targaryen kings incorporated instructions in the kingsguard vow compelling them to serve other dynasties.

So if a bunch of people shoots down the head of your goverment and declare martial law, why would you feel morally and legally compelled to submit to them?

[snake]

Could you direct me to the part in the series were you get this from? Especially "their oath is to realm" part because I seriously doubt any Targaryen kings incorporated instructions in the kingsguard vow compelling them to serve other dynasties.

I'm just going by what Ser Barriston said so it might not be in the oath at all and may just be his interpretation of the oath or the way he justified to himself serving Robert.

AGoT US paperback p.622,

"The girl I was to wed married my cousin in my place, I had no need of land or sons, my life would be lived for the realm."

So make of that what you will, but IMO it suggests that the Kingsguard are to serve the king of Westeros. It's just that the Targaryens never envisioned that it would not be one of them. I never understood the Kingsguard to be the personal bodyguards for the head of House Targaryen but to be the personal bodyguards of the king of Westeros and after the rebellion that was Robert Baratheon.