The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II

[Godot]

As far as I remember, Robb stated that he intended to name Jon as his heir during an argument with Catelyn. In a following chapter, Robb commanded his lords to affix their seals to his new succession document, with no further mention of whom he'd named. I can't help but think Martin constructed the storytelling that way to play silly buggers with us.

So no, I'm not absolutely sure Robb named Jon as his heir.

I can't see why he shouldn't. He intended to name Jon his heir from before his conversation with Catelyn, and I can think of nothing she said that would change his mind.

[DanteGabriel]

I can't see why he shouldn't. He intended to name Jon his heir from before his conversation with Catelyn, and I can think of nothing she said that would change his mind.

It's still a gap that has not been provably filled. A gap that was left suspiciously (and perhaps significantly) open. "I can't see why he shouldn't" isn't enough proof.

[Godot]

It's still a gap that has not been provably filled. A gap that was left suspiciously (and perhaps significantly) open. "I can't see why he shouldn't" isn't enough proof.

Robb already voiced his intent to make Jon his heir. If you can't find any factor that would cause him to reconsider, there no reason to think he did otherwise.

Besides, from Robb's POV there's no one else fit for his crown.

[DanteGabriel]

Robb already voiced his intent to make Jon his heir. If you can't find any factor that would cause him to reconsider, there no reason to think he did otherwise.

Besides, from Robb's POV there's no one else fit for his crown.

All rightie then. Believe what you want. I'm just cautioning you against making assumptions.

[Godot]

All rightie then. Believe what you want. I'm just cautioning you against making assumptions.

"Robb made Jon his heir" is about as much of an assumption as "Gregor Clegane is tall".

[DanteGabriel]

"Robb made Jon his heir" is about as much of an assumption as "Gregor Clegane is tall".

Not until we are actually made aware of the document's contents. Clegane's height is clearly described. The document's contents are never revealed. Merely the intention of the document, before it's written, in a separate chapter.

But seeing that you think those are comparable cases makes it a lot easier to understand the way you tripped all over yourself in the debate over Melisandre's powers in that Storm's End thread.

[Godot]

Not until we are actually made aware of the document's contents. Clegane's height is clearly described. The document's contents are never revealed. Merely the intention of the document, before it's written, in a separate chapter.

Yes, that was an exaggeration and I retract it. However, if all the evidence points towards one direction, with nothing against it, and no realistic alternative, I think my position is safe. More importantly, why am I arguing this? I do think that Robb named Jon his heir, but I also think it doesn't matter and will have no bearing on the story to come.

But seeing that you think those are comparable cases makes it a lot easier to understand the way you tripped all over yourself in the debate over Melisandre's powers in that Storm's End thread.

No I didn't. If that thread was a contest to see who could use the most smilies and insults, then I've been left in the dust, but otherwise I think not. Anyhow, if you perceive some flaw in my logic in that particular thread, then just say so and I'll address it as well as I'm able.

[capulet]

When I read this thread and realized what was being proposed... I literally said "d'oh, why did I never realize this?" I never second guessed that Ned had a bastard during the war.

[snake]

Then, a bit later in that chapter, Ned thinks that Rheagar isn't one to visit brothels, which was linked with fathering bastards (i.e., giving in to lust). I'd say the one about Jon suggests he's a bastard, the one about Rhaegar saying he would never father a bastard, so take from that section what you will.

Rhaegar wasn't the type to whore I know but that could be because he only likes high born honeys. After all, it took them forever to find a suitable wife for him because he needed one with the right blood.

Also, they exist on the Isle of Faces, which likes convientently close to Harrenhal, and is (interestingly enough) also a place Howland was said to visit.

Strange because early in AGoT Cat specifically says that all the weirwoods were cut down except for the Isle of faces. Still, the ToJ is almost in Dorne so it could well be that they had no weirwood.

[Godot]

Strange because early in AGoT Cat specifically says that all the weirwoods were cut down except for the Isle of faces. Still, the ToJ is almost in Dorne so it could well be that they had no weirwood.

Damn near all of them were. However, as the religious wars died down the religions began to co exist. Most castles in Westeros keep a Godswood, it's just that most of those new Godswoods don't have a wierdwood heart tree with a face on it. Wasn't the Red Keep's heart tree a Great Oak?

[Sarella]

Strange because early in AGoT Cat specifically says that all the weirwoods were cut down except for the Isle of faces. Still, the ToJ is almost in Dorne so it could well be that they had no weirwood.

I thought Lord Piper was saying that perhaps they wed in the godswood at Harrenhal (at the tourney where R named L QoLaB), or at the Isle of Faces with Howland bearing witness.

Either is possible I suppose, but it would involve Howland keeping it secret from Ned.

[snake]

I thought Lord Piper was saying that perhaps they wed in the godswood at Harrenhal (at the tourney where R named L QoLaB), or at the Isle of Faces with Howland bearing witness.

Either is possible I suppose, but it would involve Howland keeping it secret from Ned.

Really? That's a little on the crackpot side of things doncha think?

[Sarella]

Really? That's a little on the crackpot side of things doncha think?

Oh, totally. But running with the idea that they wed with no witnesses in a godswood, it doesn't seem like that much of a stretch that they wed at the time of their first meeting, at the tourney at harrenhal, where we know there is a godswood with a weirwood tree.

I still can't believe they ever wed, though. Either (1) they wed with witnesses and we'll find out when one of the witnesses speaks up (which I've already said would be poor writing), (2) they wed without witnesses in which case we will never find out, or (3) they didn't wed at all.

[Mezeh]

If Rhaegar and Lyanna married in Harenhall then there most probably was a witness and we should look at Rhaegar’s friends. We know that both of his close friends were present on the tourney. One is Arthur Dayne. He is dead but him knowing about the marriage would explain behavior of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. The second is Jon Connington who

SPOILER: ADWD

Who is most likely alive and on his way to Dany.

And mind he is the person whose witness Dany most likely would accept.

By the way lady Ashara also was there.

[Piper]

I thought Lord Piper was saying that perhaps they wed in the godswood at Harrenhal (at the tourney where R named L QoLaB), or at the Isle of Faces with Howland bearing witness.

Either is possible I suppose, but it would involve Howland keeping it secret from Ned.

Well, I was just showing that they do exist, Harrenhal being the first example that popped to mind, and that just happened to be where the two of them (supposedly) met.

As for the Isle of Faces, not so much that Howland was a witness, but that either he conversed with the green seers there, or with the heart trees themselves. Bit o'crack pot, yes, but interesting none the less.

[SFDanny]

Because he was there and he spoke to his sister. Unless she died moments after the fight he might have spoken to her at length and if she was with Rhaegar willingly he certainly would have asked her why she did what she did. Also, he would have questioned any servants who were about. There was ample opportunity and time for Ned to find out if Lyanna and Rhaegar were wed.

I’m not sure how you determine there was “ample opportunity and time for Ned to find out if Lyanna and Rhaegar were wed†when we know so little of how the events at the Tower of Joy unfolded. As I’ve said, it is entirely possible you are right and Ned learned of the marriage, but it is also entirely possible Lyanna did not live long enough for her to tell him about it. Nothing we know indicates it has to be one way or the other.

I don't buy that. The Kingsguard being at the ToJ is a mystery because by rights they should have been with Aerys, Rhaegar or baby Aegon. Those were the three heirs to the throne and those were the ones that needed protection so their duty lies with them. The fact that they weren't with either of the three implies, IMO, that they were ordered to be at the ToJ by Rhaegar. So my theory is that they were following through with their orders or trying to uphold the spirit of their vows in hopes to wipe out the taint the Kingslayer left upon their order.

The KG were there because the crown prince ordered them to be there. KG obey orders. They are not going to break an order to run off and do what they think is right. Hell, they let Aerys beat his wife and did nothing about it.

Let’s look at this again.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

“I looked for you on the Trident,†Ned said to them.

“We were not there,†Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,†said Ser Oswell.

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.â€

“Far away,†Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.â€

“I came down on Storm’s End to lift the siege,†Ned told them, “and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all the knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.â€

“Our knees do not bend easily,†said Ser Arthur Dayne.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.â€

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,†said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,†said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,†explained Ser Gerold.(354-5)

What the above tells us is that Ned thinks the three kingsguard should have been at the places he names in order to fulfill their oaths to the King and family. Their oath is not to follow blindly the last order given to them by a member of the Royal Family. It is to defend that family with their lives if need be. Perhaps kingsguards such as Ser Mandon or Ser Boros think blind obedience to an order is following their vow, but not these three men. Even Jaime and Tyrion know that such behavior is not worthy of a knight of the kingsguard. Rather they know they must follow orders, but they also know they must think and act to save the lives of their King and his family. What you two propose is to believe they became fools bound by a order from their dead prince and they abandon their mission, their vow, their entire way of life with regards to the new King who desperately needs them on Dragonstone in favor of a bastard who never will have a claim to their protection or the throne. It is not believable. It transforms the three most respected knights of the realm into participants in a Monty Python sketch.

Now, I can buy the idea the three of them were trapped at the Tower of Joy and couldn’t get away to join up with Viserys, but just barely. We are told the Tower of Joy sits with the Mountains of Dorne to its back. If this means it is in the Reach it may have happened that way, but Dorne is still loyal to the Targaryens at this point and would be a safe haven to the three knights if they could just leave a former mistress and her bastard. But they can’t because the child isn’t a bastard, but is the heir to the throne. In that light their actions of abandoning Viserys and staying with Lyanna and child make sense.

Ned would have already known that the child was Rhaegar's and bastard or no the child would still have some claim and be dangerous to Robert. The fact that he is willing to risk all by raising the child as his own would let anyone know that he was no threat and therefore they would have no reason to hide the truth from him.

A bastard child represent little to no threat to Robert (which doesn't mean he wouldn't want to kill it.) Such a child is forbidden by law and custom to inherit unless the King declares him legitimate. Aerys never did this to any child of Rhaegar’s (of course Jon appears to be the only possible bastard but idea any Targaryen would do so after the Blackfyre rebellion is slim at best,) and most especially I can’t see he would do it for Lyanna’s child. If he mistrusted the Dornishmen and kept Elia and her children close to him to ensure their loyalty, just think what he would have felt towards a child of the rebellious Stark clan. Therefore he has to be a bastard unless a secret marriage has taken place, and under the former circumstances Jon would represent no threat to Robert’s claim on the throne.

They are coming from a brothel where they see one of Robert's bastards. Then an image of Jon's face comes to Ned and he immediately thinks why do the gods give men such lusts if they frown on bastards. I try but i really fail to see no connection there. I guess we all see what we want, or at least I've been accused of that a time or two. .

I've been accused of the same thing at times. I'm trying to keep an open mind to your point, but haven't yet reached the conclusion that there is one way to see it.

There's nothing wrong with it, but I think it would be incredibly lame writing if all of a sudden these random characters we've never met show up just to say "Rhaegar and Lyanna were married".

If Martin uses marginal characters to verify the marriage, I have confidence he won’t write it in the “lame†fashion you worry about.

If Wylla knew that Jon was the true Targ heir, she surely by this time would have told Doran. He is plotting to reinstate the Targs, after all, and if Wylla knew something as important as the identity of the true Targ heir, she would tell Doran. But Doran obviously doesn't know about Jon, else he would be sending Arianne to him with the same kind of proposals he's sending Q to Dany with.

I agree Doran doesn’t know about Jon, but that doesn’t mean Wylla would have told him if it were true. My guess is that Wylla is not a loyalist to Dorne, but rather an old loyalist to House Targaryen, Rhaegar and Lyanna in particular, who has ended up in Dorne. Her loyalty would mean keeping the secret of Jon’s birth from everyone she didn’t trust absolutely, and she has no reason to be aware of Doran’s secret plots to help the Targaryens.

And Varys doesn't know about the marriage (if there was one) because if he did know, he would be plotting to sit Jon on the throne, not Dany.

First, I’m not convinced Varys is plotting to put Daenerys on the throne. Giving orders to kill her dampens my enthusiasm for him as the center of a Targaryen underground. Second, knowing about a marriage doesn’t mean knowing about a child.

[Mezeh]

First, I’m not convinced Varys is plotting to put Daenerys on the throne. Giving orders to kill her dampens my enthusiasm for him as the center of a Targaryen underground. Second, knowing about a marriage doesn’t mean knowing about a child.

I’m convinced that he is not. Yet Varys wants her to remain alive.

The explanation of Varys strange behavior could however be very simple. “The dragon has three headsâ€.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Strange because early in AGoT Cat specifically says that all the weirwoods were cut down except for the Isle of faces.

Oh, Cat is incredibly unreliable when she says that. She practically grew up in the shade of a weirwood; the slim, sad Riverrun weirwood is described in the chapter where Robb is made King by his lords.

As of aFfC, we're up to 5 southron castles known to have weirwoods during the series.

Riverrun

Harrenhal

Storm's End (until it was destroyed by a certain religious fanatic)

the Whispers on Crackclaw Point (possibly grown since the castle was abandoned)

The Rookery in Oldtown

[the silent speaker]

The Andals cut down the weirwoods, but they did it six thousand years ago (that's how old House Arryn is). Harrenhal's weirwood was certainly grown after that. I don't know who cut the face into it, though.

[Guest Other-in-law]

The Andals cut down the weirwoods, but they did it six thousand years ago (that's how old House Arryn is). Harrenhal's weirwood was certainly grown after that. I don't know who cut the face into it, though.

I have no idea what ground you have to be certain that Harrenhal's weirwood grew after the Andals came. If it's Cat's comment, she was obviously make a rather sloppy generalisation. And lifespan is not the issue, since Winterfell's weirwood is believed to older than the castle itself.