Why did Criston Cole support Aegon II?

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, you don't believe that Bloodraven wants Jon to be King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men?

Why should he care about something as, well, insignificant as that? Why should anybody married to the trees care about such mundane matters?

2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

ASOIAF is a story not a history. The idea that Bloodraven loved Daemon, hated Aegor, and desired Shiera is more poetic than the idea that a one of the Great Bastards is excluded from that circle to be replaced by a Targaryen, so it makes more sense since we should be considering what the storyteller wants us to understand.

We have no reason to assume anything like that (and the idea that this idea is more 'poetic' is a question of taste, not facts - I'd even agree with you if there was any reason to imagine that such a scenario is intended) and George went out of his way in TWoIaF to show us how Brynden and Daeron got close. That was the whole point of Melissa Blackwood getting friends with both Queen Naerys and Prince Daeron. There is no hint whatsoever that Daemon and Brynden ever get close, let alone that Brynden loved Daemon. In fact, considering the considerable age gap this is very unlikely.

Daeron II was much older than Brynden but Daeron could have become a surrogate father for Brynden. There is no hint that Bloodraven was ever conflicted in his loyalties - and one really wonders why a man who loved Daemon should not also have allowed that love to overwrite whatever loyalties such a man would also have felt for Daeron II (assuming such a man would ever have had any loyalties for Daeron II).

If Brynden loved Daemon it is very unlikely that he would never have killed Aenys Blackfyre the way he did. Nor is it is likely he would have gone out of his way to personally slew Daemon and his twins on the Redgrass Field.

2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The Bloodraven inspired dream goes beyond Jaime's feeling for Brienne. Else why would it be inspired by Bloodraven?

At that point Jaime did not yet strong feelings for Brienne. Those feelings in itself might have been planted by Bloodraven. I'm also not sure why Bloodraven-inspired dreams should have layers upon layers. The man seems to have problems communicating. And whatever messages there are (like the she-wolf and the pups) are pretty straightforward for cryptic prophetic dreams.

2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I agree that the Hightowers were the movers and the shakers behind the green party, but Criston was the man who acted while other greens were debating (words are wind), and he made the purge happen. That put the greens ahead of the eight ball early in the Dance. 

You can see it that way but we don't know whether Cole acted on his own or was directed by either Alicent or Otto when he murdered Beesbury.

But that isn't really the point. The moniker 'Kingmaker' suggests a comparison to Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick who got himself the same name during the Wars of the Roses. But unlike Cole he was the most powerful man of England when he toppled Henry VI and replaced him with Edward IV (and later imprisoned the king he had made and eventually restored the king he had deposed).

By comparison the Cole we got looks like a joke. His 'kingmaking' has been reduced to the literal coronation thing - something anybody could have done. The man who actually made Aegon II was Ser Otto Hightower. He should have been the Kingmaker, not Criston Cole.

If you think about that one actually wonders why Cole ever got that name. The men crowning other (controversial) kings didn't get such a name.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Why should he care about something as, well, insignificant as that? Why should anybody married to the trees care about such mundane matters?

We have no reason to assume anything like that (and the idea that this idea is more 'poetic' is a question of taste, not facts - I'd even agree with you if there was any reason to imagine that such a scenario is intended) and George went out of his way in TWoIaF to show us how Brynden and Daeron got close. That was the whole point of Melissa Blackwood getting friends with both Queen Naerys and Prince Daeron. There is no hint whatsoever that Daemon and Brynden ever get close, let alone that Brynden loved Daemon. In fact, considering the considerable age gap this is very unlikely.

Daeron II was much older than Brynden but Daeron could have become a surrogate father for Brynden. There is no hint that Bloodraven was ever conflicted in his loyalties - and one really wonders why a man who loved Daemon should not also have allowed that love to overwrite whatever loyalties such a man would also have felt for Daeron II (assuming such a man would ever have had any loyalties for Daeron II).

If Brynden loved Daemon it is very unlikely that he would never have killed Aenys Blackfyre the way he did. Nor is it is likely he would have gone out of his way to personally slew Daemon and his twins on the Redgrass Field.

At that point Jaime did not yet strong feelings for Brienne. Those feelings in itself might have been planted by Bloodraven. I'm also not sure why Bloodraven-inspired dreams should have layers upon layers. The man seems to have problems communicating. And whatever messages there are (like the she-wolf and the pups) are pretty straightforward for cryptic prophetic dreams.

You can see it that way but we don't know whether Cole acted on his own or was directed by either Alicent or Otto when he murdered Beesbury.

But that isn't really the point. The moniker 'Kingmaker' suggests a comparison to Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick who got himself the same name during the Wars of the Roses. But unlike Cole he was the most powerful man of England when he toppled Henry VI and replaced him with Edward IV (and later imprisoned the king he had made and eventually restored the king he had deposed).

By comparison the Cole we got looks like a joke. His 'kingmaking' has been reduced to the literal coronation thing - something anybody could have done. The man who actually made Aegon II was Ser Otto Hightower. He should have been the Kingmaker, not Criston Cole.

If you think about that one actually wonders why Cole ever got that name. The men crowning other (controversial) kings didn't get such a name.

So, all the RLJ and rightful king hints by Mormont's raven are just coincidences? 

I would submit that "taste," as you call it, can be just as important as what you believe are facts in literature, especially in a high fantasy so imbued symbolism as ASOIAF. 

You say, "George went out of his way in TWOIAF to show us how Brynden and Daeron got close."

But, as you do so often, you utterly fail to cite any text whatsoever in support of your proposition. Rather, you expect us to accept your understanding of what you read (off the Wiki for all I know) as gospel truth. 

Here, let me show you how to cite actual text. First, open your book and review the relevant passages. Melissa Blackwood won favor with Naerys, Aemon the Dragonknight, and young Daeron because of her "gentle nature." Aegon VI, TWOIAF. Because of her mother's favor among Naerys, Aemon, and young Daeron, Bloodraven was "able to maintain his close relations at court." Because Melissa "was fondly remembered," "the Blackwood did not suffer as the Brackens did when the king cast off his respective mistresses." Daeron II, TWOIAF. To say, as you do, that Bloodraven loved King Daeron II as much as he hated Bittersteel and desired Shiera does not necessarily follow. It requires a leap based on speculation that Daeron and Bloodraven had a close, personal relationship. On the other hand, I will concede there is no direct evidence of a loving relationship between Bloodraven and Daemon Blackfyre either. You say, "Daeron could have become a surrogate father for" Bloodraven, but you have no evidence for that. It's pure speculation. I agree that Bloodraven targeting Daemon's sons is not supportive of the notion that Bloodraven loved him, but Bloodraven's Machiavellianism (Tywinism?) is notorious. The chance to kill future Blackfyre rebellions presented itself, and Bloodraven acted. 

You say "we don't know whether Cole acted on his own or was directed by either Alicent or Otto when he murdered Beesbury." As you say so often, that makes no sense. Please direct me to the point in the passage where it is suggested that one of the Hightowers direceding Criston to slit Beesbury's throat. I just reread the passage a second time today, and I can't find it. 

To suggest an answer your question at the end, perhaps Criston got the moniker because much of your perception of him is not consistent with the author's intention. 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, all the RLJ and rightful king hints by Mormont's raven are just coincidences?

Jon Snow being Rhaegar's son is not the same as him actually becoming king, right? And the raven trying to tell Jon who he is is no evidence that Bloodraven actually wants to make Jon Snow king. It could just be an attempt to make Jon Snow understand who he is because that's crucial for his role during the coming War for the Dawn.

To actually formulate a theory about Bloodraven still caring about mundane Westerosi policy we would need good evidence for that. I mean, the man failed to prevent Mance Rayder from threatening the Wall. Surely he would have tried to prevent the wildling-NW war if he had been able to actually contact people in a way that they could understand him.

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I would submit that "taste," as you call it, can be just as important as what you believe are facts in literature, especially in a high fantasy so imbued symbolism as ASOIAF.

Sure, but if it is just based on a baseless assumption then there is no reason to believe such a thing. We have no reason to believe that Daemon was the brother Brynden loved. Assuming that makes no sense at this point.

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You say, "George went out of his way in TWOIAF to show us how Brynden and Daeron got close."

But, as you do so often, you utterly fail to cite any text whatsoever in support of your proposition. Rather, you expect us to accept your understanding of what you read (off the Wiki for all I know) as gospel truth.

Well, you gave all the relevant portions of the text for me. TWoIaF failed to give us any insight into a possible loving relationship between Daemon Blackfyre while mentioning the close relations between Aegor Rivers and Daemon. In addition we got the close relationship between Brynden's mother and Naerys, Aemon, and Daeron.

In combination with the Bittersteel-Bloodraven rivalry later on this very much explains why Brynden won the friendship of Daeron II later and remained close to him until his death. I did not say that it shows that Brynden ever loved Daeron II but it showed how they got close - or rather, if you prefer that, it set up a scenario in which it is explainable how they got close if they got close.

That they got very close is confirmed by the fact that Daeron II actually gave Brynden Rivers Dark Sister (we don't know that it was Daeron II for a certainty - but then, when Aegon IV died Bloodraven was 8-9 years old - the possibility that he gave it to him is not very likely) - a sword that most definitely would have suited one of his sons, too - as well as by the fact that Brynden apparently ratted out Daemon Blackfyre's plans to Daeron II before the man was ready. One should assume that Brynden would not have been the key figure to prevent the Blackfyre Rebellion before it began in a way that very well could have gotten Daemon Blackfyre killed if he loved him. Rather, one should assume that Brynden would have gone out of his way to dissuade Daemon Blackfyre from rebelling as well as Daeron II from pardoning the man. Or he would have tried to get Daeron and Daemon together to make a peace.

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

To say, as you do, that Bloodraven loved King Daeron II as much as he hated Bittersteel and desired Shiera does not necessarily follow. It requires a leap based on speculation that Daeron and Bloodraven had a close, personal relationship.

I did not say that it 'necessarily follow'. I said TWoIaF shows how they got close. That they were close is made clear also by TWoIaF and TSS and TMK (Egg's memories of Brynden sitting on Daeron II's Small Council and arguing with Baelor Breakspear how best deal with defeated rebels).

As of yet it is correct that there is no confirmation that Bloodraven ever loved Daeron II. But it is much more likely than the idea that he loved Daemon Blackfyre.

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

On the other hand, I will concede there is no direct evidence of a loving relationship between Bloodraven and Daemon Blackfyre either.

There is not only no 'direct evidence' for this assumption. There is no evidence whatsoever for such an assumption.

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You say, "Daeron could have become a surrogate father for" Bloodraven, but you have no evidence for that. It's pure speculation.

Sure but speculation based on facts. If Daeron II was close to Melissa and if Bloodraven could retain his connections to court after his mother fell out of favor (which would indicate that Bloodraven as much as Bittersteel spend his time at the castle of his mother's family at this point, far away from Daemon Blackfyre) then it is not far-fetched to assume that his ties to court were not Aegon IV (who had banished his mother) or Princess Daena's bastard but Naerys, the Dragonknight, and Daeron II. And if Bloodraven already had a good relationship with Daeron II while their father was still alive it is also not far-fetched to assume that this relationship deepened after Daeron II called both Aegor and Brynden to court once he had taken the throne (it is clear that he must have done that - we know for a fact that Aegor lived at Stonehedge when Aegon IV visited the castle and began his affair with Bethany Bracken and it is not very likely that Aegon IV called Aegor back to court after he had just executed his aunt and maternal grandfather; in Bloodraven's case the fact that he merely kept close ties at court suggests that he, too, had to go when his mother fell out of favor).

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I agree that Bloodraven targeting Daemon's sons is not supportive of the notion that Bloodraven loved him, but Bloodraven's Machiavellianism (Tywinism?) is notorious. The chance to kill future Blackfyre rebellions presented itself, and Bloodraven acted.

Aha. If you think that is a consistent image of well-written character I cannot help you. Bloodraven's ruthlessness did not much help prevent Blackfyre Rebellions. One could also make the case that it fueled them. Brynden explicitly targeted Daemon's twins on the Redgrass Field is the kind of story that leaves simmering hatred alive for decades. Not to mention that dirty business with Aenys.

The idea that a man who supposedly loved the father of Aegon, Aemon, and Aenys would do such a thing is beyond me. It is not impossible that a man is torn between love and duty in the way you want Bloodraven to be (in fact, that kind of thing is as old as the Nibelungenlied) but it doesn't work for Bloodraven as he is presented. Bloodraven does not kill Daemon Blackfyre in a situation where he has no other choice nor is there any hint that he was sad that he had to do it. If Daemon was the brother Brynden loved then we could expect this fact to be widely known. Bloodraven would have weeped when he killed Daemon and regretted it his entire live just as Maekar regretted killing Baelor.

He certainly wouldn't have killed Daemon by targeting his eldest son first, nor would he have insisted slaying the younger one after Daemon had died.

And Tywinism clearly is the wrong word to describe Brynden's take on politics. Tywin never slew or commanded the death of a member of his own family. In fact, if some Lannister rebelled against Tywin we have every reason to believe that such a person would have been imprisoned for life or something of that sort (unless, of course, such a rebel had close kin of Tywin's during the rebellion). Bloodraven, on the other hand, takes a hard line against his own family during he entire life irregardless of the fact that Daemon Blackfyre never actually harmed him or the Targaryen family all that much. No member of House Targaryen was killed during the First Rebellion.

It is odd that Baelor Breakspear - the son and heir of Daeron II - should be more lenient to the men who nearly took his father's throne yet Bloodraven - the man who allegedly loved Daemon - is the man without mercy.

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You say "we don't know whether Cole acted on his own or was directed by either Alicent or Otto when he murdered Beesbury." As you say so often, that makes no sense. Please direct me to the point in the passage where it is suggested that one of the Hightowers direceding Criston to slit Beesbury's throat. I just reread the passage a second time today, and I can't find it.

I thought that was obvious. We have only a historians account of that scene. We only have conflicting sources as to what happened to Lord Lyman, anyway. Was he thrown into the black cells and died there, was he thrown out of the window (as Mushroom claims) or did Cole cut his throat? We don't really know. But let's say the throat-cutting from TPatQ is the correct version. The idea that a Kingsguard would do anything in the presence of the Hand of the King and the Queen Dowager who run the show doesn't make any sense in a realistic setting.

Do you think any of Joff's Seven would have cut the throat of a man in Tywin's, Tyrion's or Cersei's presence without their permission? I don't think so. Especially not in a case in which the man could actually be used as hostage against his kin. A Kingsguard does not do such a thing without permission. I'm not saying Alicent and Otto must have given a specific command but they could have given consent and permission by using glances, nods, or other gestures of approval.

Interpreting this thing as Criston Cole forcing the hands of the others makes little sense in my opinion. Hell, Alicent and Otto could have briefed Cole earlier on to do such a thing should there be any strong dissenters to their plans.

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

To suggest an answer your question at the end, perhaps Criston got the moniker because much of your perception of him is not consistent with the author's intention. 

Could be. But then, it is the author who is drawing on the Wars of the Roses, not I.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon Snow being Rhaegar's son is not the same as him actually becoming king, right? And the raven trying to tell Jon who he is is no evidence that Bloodraven actually wants to make Jon Snow king. It could just be an attempt to make Jon Snow understand who he is because that's crucial for his role during the coming War for the Dawn.

Or it might be because the land needs a king--the king. 

To actually formulate a theory about Bloodraven still caring about mundane Westerosi policy we would need good evidence for that. I mean, the man failed to prevent Mance Rayder from threatening the Wall. Surely he would have tried to prevent the wildling-NW war if he had been able to actually contact people in a way that they could understand him.

But he can't, and the story would be less intriguing if he could. 

Sure, but if it is just based on a baseless assumption then there is no reason to believe such a thing. We have no reason to believe that Daemon was the brother Brynden loved. Assuming that makes no sense at this point.

So the only baseless assumptions we should rely on are yours? 

Well, you gave all the relevant portions of the text for me. TWoIaF failed to give us any insight into a possible loving relationship between Daemon Blackfyre while mentioning the close relations between Aegor Rivers and Daemon. In addition we got the close relationship between Brynden's mother and Naerys, Aemon, and Daeron.

Robert's parents and Rhaegar's parents were close too. 

In combination with the Bittersteel-Bloodraven rivalry later on this very much explains why Brynden won the friendship of Daeron II later and remained close to him until his death. I did not say that it shows that Brynden ever loved Daeron II but it showed how they got close - or rather, if you prefer that, it set up a scenario in which it is explainable how they got close if they got close.

That's perfectly reasonable speculation. 

That they got very close is confirmed by the fact that Daeron II actually gave Brynden Rivers Dark Sister (we don't know that it was Daeron II for a certainty - but then, when Aegon IV died Bloodraven was 8-9 years old - the possibility that he gave it to him is not very likely) - a sword that most definitely would have suited one of his sons, too - as well as by the fact that Brynden apparently ratted out Daemon Blackfyre's plans to Daeron II before the man was ready. One should assume that Brynden would not have been the key figure to prevent the Blackfyre Rebellion before it began in a way that very well could have gotten Daemon Blackfyre killed if he loved him. Rather, one should assume that Brynden would have gone out of his way to dissuade Daemon Blackfyre from rebelling as well as Daeron II from pardoning the man. Or he would have tried to get Daeron and Daemon together to make a peace.

That's reasonable speculation too. Of course, it is possible that Dark Sister was given to dra Brynden away from Daemon, but we really don't know when or specifically why Brynden came into possession of the sword (or if he was able to retain it). 

I did not say that it 'necessarily follow'. I said TWoIaF shows how they got close. That they were close is made clear also by TWoIaF and TSS and TMK (Egg's memories of Brynden sitting on Daeron II's Small Council and arguing with Baelor Breakspear how best deal with defeated rebels).

Hmm... Was Robert close to all of his small councilors? 

As of yet it is correct that there is no confirmation that Bloodraven ever loved Daeron II. But it is much more likely than the idea that he loved Daemon Blackfyre.

As you say. 

There is not only no 'direct evidence' for this assumption. There is no evidence whatsoever for such an assumption.

You talking about me or you? My eyes are glazing over. 

Sure but speculation based on facts. If Daeron II was close to Melissa and if Bloodraven could retain his connections to court after his mother fell out of favor (which would indicate that Bloodraven as much as Bittersteel spend his time at the castle of his mother's family at this point, far away from Daemon Blackfyre) then it is not far-fetched to assume that his ties to court were not Aegon IV (who had banished his mother) or Princess Daena's bastard but Naerys, the Dragonknight, and Daeron II. And if Bloodraven already had a good relationship with Daeron II while their father was still alive it is also not far-fetched to assume that this relationship deepened after Daeron II called both Aegor and Brynden to court once he had taken the throne (it is clear that he must have done that - we know for a fact that Aegor lived at Stonehedge when Aegon IV visited the castle and began his affair with Bethany Bracken and it is not very likely that Aegon IV called Aegor back to court after he had just executed his aunt and maternal grandfather; in Bloodraven's case the fact that he merely kept close ties at court suggests that he, too, had to go when his mother fell out of favor).

Aha. If you think that is a consistent image of well-written character I cannot help you. Bloodraven's ruthlessness did not much help prevent Blackfyre Rebellions. One could also make the case that it fueled them. Brynden explicitly targeted Daemon's twins on the Redgrass Field is the kind of story that leaves simmering hatred alive for decades. Not to mention that dirty business with Aenys.

I understand. I've been trying to help you for a while now too. 

The idea that a man who supposedly loved the father of Aegon, Aemon, and Aenys would do such a thing is beyond me. It is not impossible that a man is torn between love and duty in the way you want Bloodraven to be (in fact, that kind of thing is as old as the Nibelungenlied) but it doesn't work for Bloodraven as he is presented. Bloodraven does not kill Daemon Blackfyre in a situation where he has no other choice nor is there any hint that he was sad that he had to do it. If Daemon was the brother Brynden loved then we could expect this fact to be widely known. Bloodraven would have weeped when he killed Daemon and regretted it his entire live just as Maekar regretted killing Baelor.

Uh-huh. 

He certainly wouldn't have killed Daemon by targeting his eldest son first, nor would he have insisted slaying the younger one after Daemon had died.

Wait, what? Tywin would not have killed an adversary's heir? 

And Tywinism clearly is the wrong word to describe Brynden's take on politics. Tywin never slew or commanded the death of a member of his own family. In fact, if some Lannister rebelled against Tywin we have every reason to believe that such a person would have been imprisoned for life or something of that sort (unless, of course, such a rebel had close kin of Tywin's during the rebellion). Bloodraven, on the other hand, takes a hard line against his own family during he entire life irregardless of the fact that Daemon Blackfyre never actually harmed him or the Targaryen family all that much. No member of House Targaryen was killed during the First Rebellion.

It is odd that Baelor Breakspear - the son and heir of Daeron II - should be more lenient to the men who nearly took his father's throne yet Bloodraven - the man who allegedly loved Daemon - is the man without mercy.

I thought that was obvious. We have only a historians account of that scene. We only have conflicting sources as to what happened to Lord Lyman, anyway. Was he thrown into the black cells and died there, was he thrown out of the window (as Mushroom claims) or did Cole cut his throat? We don't really know. But let's say the throat-cutting from TPatQ is the correct version. The idea that a Kingsguard would do anything in the presence of the Hand of the King and the Queen Dowager who run the show doesn't make any sense in a realistic setting.

Do you think any of Joff's Seven would have cut the throat of a man in Tywin's, Tyrion's or Cersei's presence without their permission? I don't think so. Especially not in a case in which the man could actually be used as hostage against his kin. A Kingsguard does not do such a thing without permission. I'm not saying Alicent and Otto must have given a specific command but they could have given consent and permission by using glances, nods, or other gestures of approval.

Or Criston Cole was bolder than any of Joffrey's seven. 

Interpreting this thing as Criston Cole forcing the hands of the others makes little sense in my opinion. Hell, Alicent and Otto could have briefed Cole earlier on to do such a thing should there be any strong dissenters to their plans.

Could be. But then, it is the author who is drawing on the Wars of the Roses, not I. 

 

[Lord Varys]

@Lost Melnibonean

Can you by any chance use the quote system properly? You know how to do that. Now you have to figure out my replies in a less easy way, assuming you bother reading the stuff at all:

1. If Bloodraven wanted to tell Jon that he is 'the king' he could long ago have sent Coldhands to Castle Black to literally tell the people there that this was the case. The man can approach the Wall and can speak. He could also have passed this knowledge on to Samwell Tarly - who could then have passed it on to Jon Snow and other important people - rather than demanding of him to swear a weirdo vow that nobody is to know where Brandon Stark went.

2. Bloodraven can contact people - e.g. Coldhands. The idea that Children of the Forest and Bloodraven himself had no means to contact the wildlings on their side of the Wall is ridiculous in the extreme.

3. You base your assumption 'I like the idea that Daemon was the brother Brynden loved because that would be poetic'. I liked that idea, too, actually, but the author does not seem to take the story in that direction. To have any impact one would expect the author to prepare the way for this revelation as he usually does. Yet TWoIaF gave us hints in a different direction.

How do you imagine is George going to reveal this love of Brynden's for Daemon? I'm curious how this could work? Do you think about Dunk and Egg stories in which Daemon Blackfyre will never feature because he is long dead or do you think somehow this question is going to be an *important topic* for some discussion between Bloodraven and Bran? As of yet Bran doesn't even know who the three-eyed crow actually is - and neither does the reader who didn't read the D&E stories.

Why should it be important that Bloodraven once loved Daemon Blackfyre? Why should we care about his conflict decades after it unfolded?

Brynden's love for Daeron II, on the other hand, could explain why Bloodraven served two of his sons loyally as Hand of the King instead of, you know, try to seize the throne for himself. Which he could try to do instead of calling a stupid Great Council to settle the succession.

4. Steffon and Aerys were close in their youth but there is no hint that they were great friends throughout their adult life. Steffon was no courtier nor did he have sit on Aerys' Small Council as far as we know. And there is no hint that Cassana and Rhaella were particularly close (or even met each other).

5. People have suggested that Bloodraven might have been given Dark Sister only after the Redgrass Field but then - why on earth did Daeron II not give it to Baelor or Maekar who also distinguished themselves in that battle? Giving the last Valyrian steel sword in possession of the royal house to some bastard brother is a remarkable thing in and of itself and not easily answered.

The idea that Daeron II had to win the loyalty or friendship of some bastards also makes no sense. Daemon Blackfyre was fourteen when his father died. Aegor, Brynden, and Shiera were much younger than that. They were all children. All they were and ever got they got from their generous royal half-brother who could have taken everything from them - including their very lives - upon his own ascension in 184 AC. Daeron II allowed Brynden and the others to live at court and be raised alongside his own sons. He could have had them sent them from court, he could have exiled them, he could have imprisoned them.

And given a sword like Dark Sister to a bastard isn't exactly a good incentive to keep him loyal. Getting Blackfyre didn't make Daemon a Targaryen loyalist. Daeron II early on had some clashes with Daemon (resulting in him putting a stop to this stupid idea of Daemon marrying Daenerys) so the idea that he would be as naive as to believe that Brynden Rivers would be loyal to him after he gave him Dark Sister if he actually loved Daemon Blackfyre at this time makes no sense. Brynden and Daemon could have just seen this as a sign of weakness by his naive falseborn brother.

6. Well, Robert was close to Stannis and Renly who were his brothers. Not emotionally, of course, but genetically. And he also was close emotionally to Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark, his Hands. No idea how close Robert felt to Selmy.

But then, Robert was a fool and one of the worst kings in the history of Westeros. If you think that Daeron the Good was ruling the Realm in a manner even remotely resembling Robert's you would, most likely, be wrong. Robert deliberately surrounded himself with flatterers and fools because he didn't care about being king. Daeron II very much did. The idea that he would have flatterers and fools with ambitious plans of their own on his council is not very likely.

That is even more true to the time after the Blackfyre Rebellion. Daeron II's rule was challenged and the rebellion put down, and thus the king most likely surrounded himself with men he trusted.

7. I'm talking about you. I presented hints how Daeron II could have been the brother Brynden loved. You gave no such hints based on actual sources for Daemon.

8. Tywin never killed one of his own kin. In fact, he goes to great lengths to provide for his siblings and the children of his siblings and his other kin. He bestows lands and titles on them and does anything in his power to find out what happened to his nephew Tyrek.

The idea that such a man would actually treat his own kin the way Bloodraven treated his half-brother and his nephews is not very likely. Murdering rivals and butchering the children of rivals isn't the same as treating your own kin in a similar manner. It never crosses the mind of Kevan to actually put Cersei down for the crimes she committed. A man like Bloodraven actually did kill such close relations repeatedly in his life.

9. If Cole was bolder than Joff's Seven then Alicent and Otto were very weak-willed leaders of their party - allowing such a slight to their authority would have been dangerous to the extreme. Otto Hightower was effectively the king at this time. He could have had Cole's head for such a thing. You have to pick - was Cole pushing the Hightowers or was Cole under their thumb at this time.

Later on Cole may have schemed to oust Otto as Hand by feeding Aegon II the idea that he would be a much better Hand. That's entirely possible. But the idea that Alicent and Otto needed to be pushed into the coup business by Cole via the Beesbury thing would make them look like very indecisive fools at this time. Surely they had (with Cole as their ally) long prepared for this moment. Beesbury had no chance to sway Alicent or Otto with his arguments - and only if that had been the case would the murder of Beesbury have been a deciding factor. It certainly also sent a message to the other councilmen but Lannister, Wylde, and Strong were, apparently, all on board the Green cause anyway.

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@Lost Melnibonean

Can you by any chance use the quote system properly? You know how to do that. Now you have to figure out my replies in a less easy way, assuming you bother reading the stuff at all:

1. If Bloodraven wanted to tell Jon that he is 'the king' he could long ago have sent Coldhands to Castle Black to literally tell the people there that this was the case. The man can approach the Wall and can speak. He could also have passed this knowledge on to Samwell Tarly - who could then have passed it on to Jon Snow and other important people - rather than demanding of him to swear a weirdo vow that nobody is to know where Brandon Stark went.

2. Bloodraven can contact people - e.g. Coldhands. The idea that Children of the Forest and Bloodraven himself had no means to contact the wildlings on their side of the Wall is ridiculous in the extreme.

3. You base your assumption 'I like the idea that Daemon was the brother Brynden loved because that would be poetic'. I liked that idea, too, actually, but the author does not seem to take the story in that direction. To have any impact one would expect the author to prepare the way for this revelation as he usually does. Yet TWoIaF gave us hints in a different direction.

How do you imagine is George going to reveal this love of Brynden's for Daemon? I'm curious how this could work? Do you think about Dunk and Egg stories in which Daemon Blackfyre will never feature because he is long dead or do you think somehow this question is going to be an *important topic* for some discussion between Bloodraven and Bran? As of yet Bran doesn't even know who the three-eyed crow actually is - and neither does the reader who didn't read the D&E stories.

Why should it be important that Bloodraven once loved Daemon Blackfyre? Why should we care about his conflict decades after it unfolded?

Brynden's love for Daeron II, on the other hand, could explain why Bloodraven served two of his sons loyally as Hand of the King instead of, you know, try to seize the throne for himself. Which he could try to do instead of calling a stupid Great Council to settle the succession.

4. Steffon and Aerys were close in their youth but there is no hint that they were great friends throughout their adult life. Steffon was no courtier nor did he have sit on Aerys' Small Council as far as we know. And there is no hint that Cassana and Rhaella were particularly close (or even met each other).

5. People have suggested that Bloodraven might have been given Dark Sister only after the Redgrass Field but then - why on earth did Daeron II not give it to Baelor or Maekar who also distinguished themselves in that battle? Giving the last Valyrian steel sword in possession of the royal house to some bastard brother is a remarkable thing in and of itself and not easily answered.

The idea that Daeron II had to win the loyalty or friendship of some bastards also makes no sense. Daemon Blackfyre was fourteen when his father died. Aegor, Brynden, and Shiera were much younger than that. They were all children. All they were and ever got they got from their generous royal half-brother who could have taken everything from them - including their very lives - upon his own ascension in 184 AC. Daeron II allowed Brynden and the others to live at court and be raised alongside his own sons. He could have had them sent them from court, he could have exiled them, he could have imprisoned them.

And given a sword like Dark Sister to a bastard isn't exactly a good incentive to keep him loyal. Getting Blackfyre didn't make Daemon a Targaryen loyalist. Daeron II early on had some clashes with Daemon (resulting in him putting a stop to this stupid idea of Daemon marrying Daenerys) so the idea that he would be as naive as to believe that Brynden Rivers would be loyal to him after he gave him Dark Sister if he actually loved Daemon Blackfyre at this time makes no sense. Brynden and Daemon could have just seen this as a sign of weakness by his naive falseborn brother.

6. Well, Robert was close to Stannis and Renly who were his brothers. Not emotionally, of course, but genetically. And he also was close emotionally to Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark, his Hands. No idea how close Robert felt to Selmy.

But then, Robert was a fool and one of the worst kings in the history of Westeros. If you think that Daeron the Good was ruling the Realm in a manner even remotely resembling Robert's you would, most likely, be wrong. Robert deliberately surrounded himself with flatterers and fools because he didn't care about being king. Daeron II very much did. The idea that he would have flatterers and fools with ambitious plans of their own on his council is not very likely.

That is even more true to the time after the Blackfyre Rebellion. Daeron II's rule was challenged and the rebellion put down, and thus the king most likely surrounded himself with men he trusted.

7. I'm talking about you. I presented hints how Daeron II could have been the brother Brynden loved. You gave no such hints based on actual sources for Daemon.

8. Tywin never killed one of his own kin. In fact, he goes to great lengths to provide for his siblings and the children of his siblings and his other kin. He bestows lands and titles on them and does anything in his power to find out what happened to his nephew Tyrek.

The idea that such a man would actually treat his own kin the way Bloodraven treated his half-brother and his nephews is not very likely. Murdering rivals and butchering the children of rivals isn't the same as treating your own kin in a similar manner. It never crosses the mind of Kevan to actually put Cersei down for the crimes she committed. A man like Bloodraven actually did kill such close relations repeatedly in his life.

9. If Cole was bolder than Joff's Seven then Alicent and Otto were very weak-willed leaders of their party - allowing such a slight to their authority would have been dangerous to the extreme. Otto Hightower was effectively the king at this time. He could have had Cole's head for such a thing. You have to pick - was Cole pushing the Hightowers or was Cole under their thumb at this time.

Later on Cole may have schemed to oust Otto as Hand by feeding Aegon II the idea that he would be a much better Hand. That's entirely possible. But the idea that Alicent and Otto needed to be pushed into the coup business by Cole via the Beesbury thing would make them look like very indecisive fools at this time. Surely they had (with Cole as their ally) long prepared for this moment. Beesbury had no chance to sway Alicent or Otto with his arguments - and only if that had been the case would the murder of Beesbury have been a deciding factor. It certainly also sent a message to the other councilmen but Lannister, Wylde, and Strong were, apparently, all on board the Green cause anyway.

I use my phone almost exclusively, and I am not sure how to multi-quote with the mobile application. If you could write more concisely that would help. 

1. Seriously? Well, when you write the great American novel, you can do it that way. 

2. I really don't know what your point is here. 

3. He could just leave it as it is. The hatred for Aegor is the key for the current story. 

4. Right. You're funny. You allow that Aerys and Steffon were close in their youth, but claim there is no suggestion that they remained so, ignoring the mission with which Aerys entrusted Steffonn and you say there is no reason to assume that their wives even knew even knew each other. But you go ahead and assume that Bloodraven loved Daeron II as much as he hated Bittersteel and desired Shiera because Bloodraven's mum was favored by young Daeron and Daeron's mum and the Dragonknight. 

5. OK. I am hoping we find out what happened to Dark Sister too. I assume it will matter somewhat, since i am sure we will see it again. All we can do for now is specluate. 

6. You're just so condescending. Do you even see it? Do you care? 

7. Right.

8. None of Tywin's kin went to war against him. I have a feeling he would have treated such disloyalty very harshly. 

9. As you say. 

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

1. Seriously? Well, when you write the great American novel, you can do it that way. 

Come on, now, you are just deflecting. You said there was no way to do this and I've given you a way George actually used in the story you had not thought about.

4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

2. I really don't know what your point is here.

The point is that Bloodraven had the means to prevent a war between the NW and the wildlings by reaching out to Mance via Coldhands (or by sending some Children to him). The same could have been done for the Watch. Mormont and Aemon most definitely would have listened had Coldhands and some Children approached Castle Black.

4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

3. He could just leave it as it is. The hatred for Aegor is the key for the current story.

So you think there is just some layer to the story which has no relevance to the plot at all and is just there (or rather not there) so you can find it poetic?

What do you mean by the hatred of Aegon being the key for the current story? There is no hint that Bloodraven still cares about his about the petty squabbles and feelings of his youth. The people he loved and hated are long gone, and so is he, mostly. His mentioning of that suggests this stuff is in the past for him:

Quote

I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired.

He no longer has those feelings. He once loved a brother, he hated another, and he desired some woman. He doesn't give us the impression that he is still motivated by those feelings.

4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

4. Right. You're funny. You allow that Aerys and Steffon were close in their youth, but claim there is no suggestion that they remained so, ignoring the mission with which Aerys entrusted Steffonn and you say there is no reason to assume that their wives even knew even knew each other.

That was me actually being funny because you throw out that imprecise 'their parents were close' crap. I did not mention Steffon's mission but it doesn't mean they were particularly close to Aerys. Aerys was clearly searching for somebody to replace Tywin, a man he thought he could trust. Thus he returned to his other childhood friend (and first cousin) Steffon Baratheon.

4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But you go ahead and assume that Bloodraven loved Daeron II as much as he hated Bittersteel and desired Shiera because Bloodraven's mum was favored by young Daeron and Daeron's mum and the Dragonknight.

Going back to the actual quote above there it would even be a stretch to assume the woman was Shiera, wouldn't it?

There is also nothing to suggest that Brynden 'loved a brother as much as he hated the other brother'. He just said that he loved one brother and hated another. It is not qualified how much he hated one brother or loved the other.

And last I looked I actually was friends with the children of people my mother was close to. That kind of thing happens when your mother hangs out with some other woman who has children of her own.

The idea that Brynden would be close to Daemon Blackfyre (whom he might have never met in person until Daeron II called him to court because, you know, Missy and her children fell out of favor before Aegon IV even acknowledged Daemon Blackfyre as his son - the boy would have grown up in Princess Daena's household, and we have no idea where that was at this time) with whom he had no connection at all throughout his entire life just doesn't make any sense.

I could use your reasoning to make a case for Daemon Blackfyre being the brother Brynden hated and Aegor the one he hated. Or better still Aegor the one he loved and Daeron II the one he hated.

Daemon Blackfyre driving a wedge between the best buddies Brynden and Aegor could be 'poetic', too, don't you think? 

4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

5. OK. I am hoping we find out what happened to Dark Sister too. I assume it will matter somewhat, since i am sure we will see it again. All we can do for now is specluate.

Yeah, but there are bounds in which speculation makes sense. Speculating that Aegon IV gave Dark Sister to Bloodraven or that Daeron II gave it to him to win his favor makes less sense than to assume that Daeron II did it because he loved and was sure of his loyalty, or that he did so to reward him (either for warning Daeron II of the impending Blackfyre Rebellion or for his deeds on the Redgrass Field - I'm inclined to believe Brynden already had Dark Sister when he fought Bittersteel because Bittersteel most likely already had Blackfyre at that time, suggesting that he should have short work out of Brynden had he had no Valyrian steel sword).

While I also think Dark Sister will resurface in the story that doesn't mean we'll ever learn how Bloodraven got it. He already has it in the Dunk & Egg stories.

4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

6. You're just so condescending. Do you even see it? Do you care? 

You throw me some one-liners which, well, show your respect and interest for my postings and then you expect to not be paid back in kind?

4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

8. None of Tywin's kin went to war against him. I have a feeling he would have treated such disloyalty very harshly. 

Could very well be. Or not. Even Balon and Victarion Greyjoy refrained from kinslaying. This whole thing is a strong taboo in this society. But what you overlook is that Tywin was the head of a noble house, a man who ruled over his family as its lord. Brynden Rivers was neither lord nor king. He was just the thug of the kings he served. And he effectively bathed in the blood of his kin for no good reason. Tywin might have had the right to sentence a rebel Lannister to death. But Brynden Rivers had no such right.

This whole Blackfyre thing muddies the water. Aegon IV legitimized them all. We are talking about Brynden Targaryen, Aegor Targaryen, Daemon Targaryen, Aegon Targaryen, Aemon Targaryen, Aenys Targaryen. Brynden did his best to kill all those brothers and nephews. The idea that he did all that just for reasons of state is as of yet without basis. And there are hints against that, especially the fact that many Targaryen princes and kings did not actually share Brynden's view on the Blackfyres. What right has this presumptuous guys to be a greater hardliner than those who are actually mainly affected by the Blackfyre threat?

[Lost Melnibonean]

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Come on, now, you are just deflecting. You said there was no way to do this and I've given you a way George actually used in the story you had not thought about.

The point is that Bloodraven had the means to prevent a war between the NW and the wildlings by reaching out to Mance via Coldhands (or by sending some Children to him). The same could have been done for the Watch. Mormont and Aemon most definitely would have listened had Coldhands and some Children approached Castle Black.

So you think there is just some layer to the story which has no relevance to the plot at all and is just there (or rather not there) so you can find it poetic?

What do you mean by the hatred of Aegon being the key for the current story? There is no hint that Bloodraven still cares about his about the petty squabbles and feelings of his youth. The people he loved and hated are long gone, and so is he, mostly. His mentioning of that suggests this stuff is in the past for him:

He no longer has those feelings. He once loved a brother, he hated another, and he desired some woman. He doesn't give us the impression that he is still motivated by those feelings.

That was me actually being funny because you throw out that imprecise 'their parents were close' crap. I did not mention Steffon's mission but it doesn't mean they were particularly close to Aerys. Aerys was clearly searching for somebody to replace Tywin, a man he thought he could trust. Thus he returned to his other childhood friend (and first cousin) Steffon Baratheon.

Going back to the actual quote above there it would even be a stretch to assume the woman was Shiera, wouldn't it?

There is also nothing to suggest that Brynden 'loved a brother as much as he hated the other brother'. He just said that he loved one brother and hated another. It is not qualified how much he hated one brother or loved the other.

And last I looked I actually was friends with the children of people my mother was close to. That kind of thing happens when your mother hangs out with some other woman who has children of her own.

The idea that Brynden would be close to Daemon Blackfyre (whom he might have never met in person until Daeron II called him to court because, you know, Missy and her children fell out of favor before Aegon IV even acknowledged Daemon Blackfyre as his son - the boy would have grown up in Princess Daena's household, and we have no idea where that was at this time) with whom he had no connection at all throughout his entire life just doesn't make any sense.

I could use your reasoning to make a case for Daemon Blackfyre being the brother Brynden hated and Aegor the one he hated. Or better still Aegor the one he loved and Daeron II the one he hated.

Daemon Blackfyre driving a wedge between the best buddies Brynden and Aegor could be 'poetic', too, don't you think? 

Yeah, but there are bounds in which speculation makes sense. Speculating that Aegon IV gave Dark Sister to Bloodraven or that Daeron II gave it to him to win his favor makes less sense than to assume that Daeron II did it because he loved and was sure of his loyalty, or that he did so to reward him (either for warning Daeron II of the impending Blackfyre Rebellion or for his deeds on the Redgrass Field - I'm inclined to believe Brynden already had Dark Sister when he fought Bittersteel because Bittersteel most likely already had Blackfyre at that time, suggesting that he should have short work out of Brynden had he had no Valyrian steel sword).

While I also think Dark Sister will resurface in the story that doesn't mean we'll ever learn how Bloodraven got it. He already has it in the Dunk & Egg stories.

You throw me some one-liners which, well, show your respect and interest for my postings and then you expect to not be paid back in kind?

Could very well be. Or not. Even Balon and Victarion Greyjoy refrained from kinslaying. This whole thing is a strong taboo in this society. But what you overlook is that Tywin was the head of a noble house, a man who ruled over his family as its lord. Brynden Rivers was neither lord nor king. He was just the thug of the kings he served. And he effectively bathed in the blood of his kin for no good reason. Tywin might have had the right to sentence a rebel Lannister to death. But Brynden Rivers had no such right.

This whole Blackfyre thing muddies the water. Aegon IV legitimized them all. We are talking about Brynden Targaryen, Aegor Targaryen, Daemon Targaryen, Aegon Targaryen, Aemon Targaryen, Aenys Targaryen. Brynden did his best to kill all those brothers and nephews. The idea that he did all that just for reasons of state is as of yet without basis. And there are hints against that, especially the fact that many Targaryen princes and kings did not actually share Brynden's view on the Blackfyres. What right has this presumptuous guys to be a greater hardliner than those who are actually mainly affected by the Blackfyre threat?

I think we have departed sufficiently from the OP. Bloodraven's agenda, his methods of communication in the context of the story being told, and who might have heeded him are discussed quite often in other threads. 

I think it is undeniable that Jaime's weirwood stump dream was inspired by Bloodraven, and I suspect Bloodraven is inspiring Jaime to back Rhaegar's heir. I read the Criston Cole backstory and the prophecy of Cersei's valonqar to be hints that Jaime will take action that helps Aegon ascend to the Iron Throne. I also believe there is some foreshadowing that Jaime will end up with Rhaegar's true heir fighting the true enemy in the end. 

I think you already said you don't have any other explanation for why Bloodraven inspired that dream. 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

@Lost Melnibonean

In addition to there being no evidence linking BR to Daemon Blackfyre, one must consider their personalities. Daeron was a scholarly, wise man who usually kept company with very learned men. It's far more likely the awkward albino child with a inclination for arcane knowledge and magic gets along with this guy than the dashing warrior Daemon. BR's intelligence and abilities would have been far more appreciated by Daeron as compared to Daemon.

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think it is undeniable that Jaime's weirwood stump dream was inspired by Bloodraven, and I suspect Bloodraven is inspiring Jaime to back Rhaegar's heir.

I'd technically even doubt that. If it turns out that Bran is going to be able to outdo Bloodraven (which he already is in regards to the raven speech) and not only look back in time but also speak and reach back in time then Jaime's weirwood dream could actually have been influenced by time-traveling Bran. I'm not sure I really like that possibility but it remains a possibility.

I give you the dream here in full, pointing out the elements I consider to be the key elements:

Quote

Naked and alone he stood, surrounded by enemies, with stone walls all around him pressing close. The Rock, he knew. He could feel the immense weight of it above his head. He was home. He was home and whole.
He held his right hand up and flexed his fingers to feel the strength in them. It felt as good as sex. As good as swordplay. Four fingers and a thumb. He had dreamed that he was maimed, but it wasn’t so. Relief made him dizzy. My hand, my good hand. Nothing could hurt him so long as he was whole.
Around him stood a dozen tall dark figures in cowled robes that hid their faces. In their hands were spears. “Who are you?” he demanded of them. “What business do you have in Casterly Rock?”
They gave no answer, only prodded him with the points of their spears. He had no choice but to descend. Down a twisting passageway he went, narrow steps carved from the living rock, down and down. I must go up, he told himself. Up, not down. Why am I going down? Below the earth his doom awaited, he knew with the certainty of dream; something dark and terrible lurked there, something that wanted him. Jaime tried to halt, but their spears prodded him on. If only I had my sword, nothing could harm me.
The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. Jaime had the sense of vast space before him. He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness. A spearpoint jabbed at the small of the back, shoving him into the abyss. He shouted, but the fall was short. He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water. There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. “What place is this?”
“Your place.” The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who’d lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father’s voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they’d made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair.
“Sister, why has Father brought us here?”
“Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness.” Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go.
“Stay with me,” Jaime pleaded. “Don’t leave me here alone.” But they were leaving. “Don’t leave me in the dark!” Something terrible lived down here. “Give me a sword, at least.”
“I gave you a sword,” Lord Tywin said.
It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps . . .
From behind came a great splash. Jaime whirled toward the sound . . . but the faint light revealed only Brienne of Tarth, her hands bound in heavy chains. “I swore to keep you safe,” the wench said stubbornly. “I swore an oath.” Naked, she raised her hands to Jaime. “Ser. Please. If you would be so good.”
The steel links parted like silk. “A sword,” Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all. She buckled it around her thick waist. The light was so dim that Jaime could scarcely see her, though they stood a scant few feet apart. In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought. In this light she could almost be a knight. Brienne’s sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more.
“The flames will burn so long as you live,” he heard Cersei call. “When they die, so must you.”
“Sister!” he shouted. “Stay with me. Stay!” There was no reply but the soft sound of retreating footsteps.
Brienne moved her longsword back and forth, watching the silvery flames shift and shimmer. Beneath her feet, a reflection of the burning blade shone on the surface of the flat black water. She was as tall and strong as he remembered, yet it seemed to Jaime that she had more of a woman’s shape now.
“Do they keep a bear down here?” Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword to hand; step, turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash. “A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?”
“Doom.” No bear, he knew. No lion. “Only doom.”
In the cool silvery-blue light of the swords, the big wench looked pale and fierce. “I mislike this place.”

“I’m not fond of it myself.” Their blades made a little island of light, but all around them stretched a sea of darkness, unending. “My feet are wet.”
“We could go back the way they brought us. If you climbed on my shoulders you’d have no trouble reaching that tunnel mouth.”
Then I could follow Cersei. He could feel himself growing hard at the thought, and turned away so Brienne would not see.
“Listen.” She put a hand on his shoulder, and he trembled at the sudden touch. She’s warm. “Something comes.” Brienne lifted her sword to point off to his left. “There.”
He peered into the gloom until he saw it too. Something was moving through the darkness, he could not quite make it out . . .
“A man on a horse. No, two. Two riders, side by side.”
“Down here, beneath the Rock?” It made no sense. Yet there came two riders on pale horses, men and mounts both armored. The destriers emerged from the blackness at a slow walk. They make no sound, Jaime realized. No splashing, no clink of mail nor clop of hoof. He remembered Eddard Stark, riding the length of Aerys’s throne room wrapped in silence. Only his eyes had spoken; a lord’s eyes, cold and grey and full of judgment.
“Is it you, Stark?” Jaime called. “Come ahead. I never feared you living, I do not fear you dead.”
Brienne touched his arm. “There are more.”
He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them.
Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.
“You don’t frighten me,” he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. “I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out.”
“I swore an oath to keep him [Renly] safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.”
“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.
The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.”
“He was your king,” said Darry.
“You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.
“And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn.
Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”
“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king . . .”
“Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur.
“Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn.
“The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.
The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne’s burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.
“No,” he said, “no, no, no. Nooooooooo!”

It definitely is about Jaime's guilt regarding Aerys and Rhaegar and his children. The darkness and the doom Jaime expects are symbols of that. Jaime being separated from Tywin, Cersei, and Joffrey (and the complete lack of Tyrion) are strong hints that the person shaping the dream wants to alienate Jaime from the other Lannisters and/or knows that Tyrion isn't Jaime's full brother.

But the dream also paints Brienne in a sexual attractive way. She comes to embody the principles Jaime betrayed, and also becomes the innocent he is supposed to protect. That's why he rushes back to save her. Tywin talking about giving Jaime a sword foreshadows Oathkeeper, the sword Jaime will eventually give to Brienne, mirrored by the fact that she, too, suddenly wields a burning sword in that dream.

Whoever made that dream used Rhaegar and the Kingsguard as tools to mess with Jaime's mind. It may be that that person also had the intention to reawaken his Rhaegar issues but what the point of that is cannot be decided as of yet. It could be about Jaime backing some Targaryen pretender. Or it could just be the means the shaper of the dream used so that Jaime tries to become a better person and tries to save Brienne rather than having some weird additional political agenda.

6 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I read the Criston Cole backstory and the prophecy of Cersei's valonqar to be hints that Jaime will take action that helps Aegon ascend to the Iron Throne. I also believe there is some foreshadowing that Jaime will end up with Rhaegar's true heir fighting the true enemy in the end. 

If Jaime lives he could also play a role in the fight against the Others. But we could also see the dream as decision that he is going to be killed by them. The fire of his sword gutters out, after all, and this could very well be prophetic. On a different level the shades and the darkness could also symbolize the wights and the Others, and if that's the case then Jaime is already dead.

6 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think you already said you don't have any other explanation for why Bloodraven inspired that dream. 

I think the dream caused Jaime to reconsider his old wounds. But my focus in the interpretation of the intention of the shaper is the rescue of Brienne, not some long-term Jaime plan. I think Brienne's presence in the final battle will crucial and whoever made the dream knew that. The fact that Brienne is suddenly a rather close Targaryen cousin actually could support that. Brienne is now not an interesting character but also one who might play a crucial in the whole prophecy department.

[Lost Melnibonean]

40 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

@Lost Melnibonean

In addition to there being no evidence linking BR to Daemon Blackfyre, one must consider their personalities. Daeron was a scholarly, wise man who usually kept company with very learned men. It's far more likely the awkward albino child with a inclination for arcane knowledge and magic gets along with this guy than the dashing warrior Daemon. BR's intelligence and abilities would have been far more appreciated by Daeron as compared to Daemon.

Good point. If it weren't for the poetic (for lack of a better term) symmetry of Daemon being included with the other three great bastards, I would agree with you and @Lord Varys on this. 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Just now, Lost Melnibonean said:

Good point. If it weren't for the poetic (for lack of a better term) symmetry of Daemon being included with the other three great bastards, I would agree with you and @Lord Varys on this. 

Well, LM, that is very subjective. I don't find it all that poetic, for instance - I think it's much more believable that BR loved Daeron and served him well. Daeron was called 'The Good', after all - I could see him taking this weird child under his wing, and as LV says, being a surrogate father to him. In my headcanon, Daeron was probably one of the only people who really respected and loved Brynden without bothering about his malignant reputation and outward appearance. So I can see BR loving him for that.

Plus, LV raises a very good point -  BR is obviously not going to discuss this stuff with Bran. So if Daemon was the one he loved, we might never know. Since it's not likely we'll get a BR POV in any of the future D & E books either, it's really a big question as to how this hypothetical love could be revealed. Brynden doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to be outwardly very emotional and expressive about his feelings.

[Lost Melnibonean]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd technically even doubt that. If it turns out that Bran is going to be able to outdo Bloodraven (which he already is in regards to the raven speech) and not only look back in time but also speak and reach back in time then Jaime's weirwood dream could actually have been influenced by time-traveling Bran. I'm not sure I really like that possibility but it remains a possibility.

I give you the dream here in full, pointing out the elements I consider to be the key elements:

It definitely is about Jaime's guilt regarding Aerys and Rhaegar and his children. The darkness and the doom Jaime expects are symbols of that. Jaime being separated from Tywin, Cersei, and Joffrey (and the complete lack of Tyrion) are strong hints that the person shaping the dream wants to alienate Jaime from the other Lannisters and/or knows that Tyrion isn't Jaime's full brother.

But the dream also paints Brienne in a sexual attractive way. She comes to embody the principles Jaime betrayed, and also becomes the innocent he is supposed to protect. That's why he rushes back to save her. Tywin talking about giving Jaime a sword foreshadows Oathkeeper, the sword Jaime will eventually give to Brienne, mirrored by the fact that she, too, suddenly wields a burning sword in that dream.

Whoever made that dream used Rhaegar and the Kingsguard as tools to mess with Jaime's mind. It may be that that person also had the intention to reawaken his Rhaegar issues but what the point of that is cannot be decided as of yet. It could be about Jaime backing some Targaryen pretender. Or it could just be the means the shaper of the dream used so that Jaime tries to become a better person and tries to save Brienne rather than having some weird additional political agenda.

If Jaime lives he could also play a role in the fight against the Others. But we could also see the dream as decision that he is going to be killed by them. The fire of his sword gutters out, after all, and this could very well be prophetic. On a different level the shades and the darkness could also symbolize the wights and the Others, and if that's the case then Jaime is already dead.

I think the dream caused Jaime to reconsider his old wounds. But my focus in the interpretation of the intention of the shaper is the rescue of Brienne, not some long-term Jaime plan. I think Brienne's presence in the final battle will crucial and whoever made the dream knew that. The fact that Brienne is suddenly a rather close Targaryen cousin actually could support that. Brienne is now not an interesting character but also one who might play a crucial in the whole prophecy department.

The dream does two things, inter alia, awakens Jaime's attraction to Brienne and fomenting Jaime's guilt for abandoning Rhaegar's children. Assuming Jaime is Cersei's valonqar and that Brienne is the younger more beautiful person who wi cast Cersei down and take all that she holds dear, those two things could work together to get Jaime to move against Cersei in favor of Aegon, as Criston did against Rhaenyra in favor of Aegon. 

[Lion of the West]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@LionoftheWest

The problem essentially boils down to the question whether Aegon wants to execute or punish the man who saves his life by preventing the burning of KL. And I don't see him doing that should this fact ever come to light - which is not unlikely considering that Brienne knows about it already.

I don't think that he would have wanted to kill Jamie for saving King's Landing. But well that he would have wanted to kill Jamie for killing a Targaryen king while breaking his Kingsguard oaths. Two separate things in the same person.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

A precedent is just the name attached to a thing that has once happened. There is a precedent for me going to a barber and there is a precedent for Kingsguard murdering a king and getting away with it.

True, but while predecents can be tricky, there's also a strong predecent of killing Kingsguards who forsake their oaths.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Your entire case is sort of weird. All of Westeros (Balon Greyjoy excluded, for a time) served Robert, those Targaryen loyalists included. They bend the knee, did homage to the king, etc. If Aegon wanted to put down men once working for Robert he cannot expect to find any allies in Westeros. He has to be even more generous than Stannis (who pardoned many of Renly's followers) in that regard. He cannot hope to win the Iron Throne against the majority of the Lords of Westeros.

I suppose you could call bending knees to Robert a a betrayal, but I personally don't, as in that scenario Varys would also be a traitor. But then again I am not saying that he should kill every single person alive in Westeros, but rather show with a few examples that he means business and that fucking with the Dragon isn't 100% safe by taking down top profiles, and in particular those who already have a bad reputation, like Jamie and Clegane. Of course it could work wth hugs, flowers and kisses but somehow I doubt that if it went badly for Aenys with that approach it probably won't go to well for Aegon VI.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sentences like that make no sense:

Every lord remaining in Westeros bent the knee to Robert Baratheon. Thus they are all traitors, men like Selmy and Doran included. Those so-called 'Targaryen loyalists' jumping the bandwagon of the Golden Company-backed Aegon cannot hope to be treated better than a man like Jaime - if Jaime actually joins Aegon early on and makes him a gift and an offer he cannot refuse. Some levies delivered to Aegon's cause are well and good but the means to destroy House Lannister should be much sweeter.

I suppose you could seei t like that, but I count those men as traitors to House Targaryen who took up arms and actually fought against House Targaryen, and not those who accepted their defeat and moved on. Naturally I call those men who took up arms against the Mad KIng heroes, but that's for anotyher discussion. This is from a Targaryen persepctive.

Also if you want to pardon people and that Aegon should forgive his enemies and come down as the Prince of Peace, why this talk of destroying House Lannister?

[Jaak]

19 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I don't think that he would have wanted to kill Jamie for saving King's Landing. But well that he would have wanted to kill Jamie for killing a Targaryen king while breaking his Kingsguard oaths. Two separate things in the same person.

True, but while predecents can be tricky, there's also a strong predecent of killing Kingsguards who forsake their oaths.

Taking the list of Kingsguards who took sides in civil wars...

Out of Maegor´s Kingsguard, 2 defected to Jaehaerys in Maegor´s lifetime and 5 did not. What did Jaehaerys do with those 5? None is mentioned to have fought for Aegon I,5.

Queensguard fell to last man - none was taken alive for judgment.

Green Kingsguard included ser Willis Fell, ser Marston Waters and ser Gyles Belgrave. Ser Gyles was accused of killing his king - by Cregan. And executed - but was offered, and declined, the option of Black.

Ser Willis Fell is not remarked on. And Aegon III did, for some reason, keep ser Marston Waters - who got in Kingsguard for betraying his mother.

[Lion of the West]

1 minute ago, Jaak said:

Taking the list of Kingsguards who took sides in civil wars...

Out of Maegor´s Kingsguard, 2 defected to Jaehaerys in Maegor´s lifetime and 5 did not. What did Jaehaerys do with those 5? None is mentioned to have fought for Aegon I,5.

Queensguard fell to last man - none was taken alive for judgment.

Green Kingsguard included ser Willis Fell, ser Marston Waters and ser Gyles Belgrave. Ser Gyles was accused of killing his king - by Cregan. And executed - but was offered, and declined, the option of Black.

Ser Willis Fell is not remarked on. And Aegon III did, for some reason, keep ser Marston Waters - who got in Kingsguard for betraying his mother.

1. I would hope that Jaehaerys sent them to the Wall or killed them. They did serve a usurper and they did not manage to protect that usurper's life.

2. The Dance of the Dragons ended in a compromise peace to mend the rifts of the realm again. That's an entirely different beast to a straight Targaryen victory.

And also note that none of these guys killed the king they had sworn to protect. That puts Jamie in an entirely new level.

Although note that I personally want Jamie to survive for as long as possible and if continues to be a Kingsguard I would be happy that he would get a chance to restore his name. But this is about what I think was reasonable to do for the Targaryens, not what I want to happen.

[Jaak]

56 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

1. I would hope that Jaehaerys sent them to the Wall or killed them. They did serve a usurper and they did not manage to protect that usurper's life.

2. The Dance of the Dragons ended in a compromise peace to mend the rifts of the realm again. That's an entirely different beast to a straight Targaryen victory.

At the point of fall of King´s Landing, Black forces were victorious there, and the Greens were in disarray - lord Jason Lannister fallen at Green Fork and Casterly Rock in "considerable disarray" under his widow lady Johanna, under siege by Dalton Greyjoy; Borros Baratheon fallen; Ormund Hightower fallen without accepted successor; Princess Jaehaera simple, and her whereabouts unspecified.

Nobody was leading Greens for negotiation. Yet the Blacks were making huge concessions.

56 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

And also note that none of these guys killed the king they had sworn to protect. That puts Jamie in an entirely new level.

The suspects in poisoning Aegon II were at least 19 people arrested by Cregan. The suspects in killing Maegor were himself, the Throne itself, an unknown intruder - and 5 Kingsguard.

Although unlike Maegor´s 5, Jaime is universally recognized as a Kingslayer.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Well, LM, that is very subjective. I don't find it all that poetic, for instance - I think it's much more believable that BR loved Daeron and served him well. Daeron was called 'The Good', after all - I could see him taking this weird child under his wing, and as LV says, being a surrogate father to him. In my headcanon, Daeron was probably one of the only people who really respected and loved Brynden without bothering about his malignant reputation and outward appearance. So I can see BR loving him for that.

The 'poetic aspect' (or perhaps interesting would be a better word for it) would make sense if George had envisioned and realized Bloodraven as a man torn between love and duty - a man with strong principles who also loved his half-brother Daemon. But we neither have indication that Bloodraven was and remained in the camp of the Red Dragon because of his principles (it is just as likely that he just loathed Aegor and Daemon so much to jump on the chance to hurt and kill them) nor is there any indication that he loved the man at all.

If Bloodraven were some sort of character resembling Rüdiger von Bechlarn from the Nibelungenlied (who was torn between his love for Giselher's daughter and his friendship with the Burgunden and his duty to his lieges Etzel and Kriemhild) this whole thing could have been interesting. But there are not even to suggest such a scenario. The only thing in favor of this theory is that Bloodraven does not name the brother he loved and the brother he hated. For all we know it could have been some Blackwood brother he was talking about (assuming Missy every married) or his alleged half-brother Balerion (the son of Bellegere Otherys).

2 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Plus, LV raises a very good point -  BR is obviously not going to discuss this stuff with Bran. So if Daemon was the one he loved, we might never know. Since it's not likely we'll get a BR POV in any of the future D & E books either, it's really a big question as to how this hypothetical love could be revealed. Brynden doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to be outwardly very emotional and expressive about his feelings.

I don't expect many revelations about Bloodraven's past at court from Bran's chapters but I actually expect at least his basic story so that the people only reading the series understand that this man is a son of Aegon the Unworthy and a distant uncle of Daenerys, Jon, and Aegon. However, I think such revelations will most likely focus on those parts of Bloodraven's life connected to magic, the Children, and the Others - not so much on petty politics. If Bloodraven talks about his relationships and feelings then most likely in a way full of loss and regret. I'm pretty sure the man would do a lot of things differently had he the chance to actually travel back in time. The idea that he searched for his ghosts in the past to relive the glory he felt when he killed Daemon and his sons is not very likely. In fact, I'd be very surprised if he still loathes Bittersteel. What was the point of all that, anyway? They are all dead and nothing good came out of any of it.

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The dream does two things, inter alia, awakens Jaime's attraction to Brienne and fomenting Jaime's guilt for abandoning Rhaegar's children. Assuming Jaime is Cersei's valonqar and that Brienne is the younger more beautiful person who wi cast Cersei down and take all that she holds dear, those two things could work together to get Jaime to move against Cersei in favor of Aegon, as Criston did against Rhaenyra in favor of Aegon.

I guess you should go back and reread the part about the younger, more beautiful queen which is part of Maggy's prophecy. Maggy never definitely mentions that the younger more beautiful person is going to be a queen but she specifies that her coming marks the end of Cersei being a queen - and that has not come yet nor will Brienne have anything to do with that. Not to mention that Brienne is never going to be more beautiful than Cersei. Jaime falling in love with Brienne tells us more about Jaime's tastes than about Brienne's beauty (or lack thereof).

Thinking about that for a moment - nothing in the text assumes that the person unmaking Queen Cersei is going to be female. Maggy never specifies the gender, Cersei only assumes a woman is meant. Aegon may be more beautiful than Cersei, as might be Arianne.

But I puzzled by the fact that you for some reason combine the valonqar prophecy and the younger more beautiful person with Jaime and Brienne. Jaime eventually killing Cersei as the valonqar does not have to be connected to Cersei's downfall in any way.

2 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I don't think that he would have wanted to kill Jamie for saving King's Landing. But well that he would have wanted to kill Jamie for killing a Targaryen king while breaking his Kingsguard oaths. Two separate things in the same person.

You should call yourself StagoftheEast. You have just twisted Prince Aegon's into some Stannis' travesty. He would reward Jaime for saving his life and execute him for killing his grandfather. But there is no reason whatsoever that Aegon would behave in a similar fashion.

In fact, if the public learned that Jaime actually killed Aerys to prevent the burning of KL - and there is no reason to keep this a secret - then public opinion (including Targaryen loyalists) might very well change in Jaime's favor. He could become some sort of hero.

2 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I suppose you could call bending knees to Robert a a betrayal, but I personally don't, as in that scenario Varys would also be a traitor.

Varys always worked in favor of a Targaryen restoration and Aegon knows that. Perhaps Doran Martell could claim something similar. But that's it.

2 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

But then again I am not saying that he should kill every single person alive in Westeros, but rather show with a few examples that he means business and that fucking with the Dragon isn't 100% safe by taking down top profiles, and in particular those who already have a bad reputation, like Jamie and Clegane. Of course it could work wth hugs, flowers and kisses but somehow I doubt that if it went badly for Aenys with that approach it probably won't go to well for Aegon VI.

Jaehaerys I also did not whip his subjects into line all the time. Aegon has to win the hearts of his people. He cannot risk being seen as cruel or a tyrant. In fact, he should become a very weak king very much like Aenys I in the sense that he will have to bow down to the Faith as well as to the demands of the people who made him king. He has no dragons and his hold on the throne will always be shaky because the other pretenders are not going to go anyway. And he won't remain king for long, presumably.

2 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I suppose you could seei t like that, but I count those men as traitors to House Targaryen who took up arms and actually fought against House Targaryen, and not those who accepted their defeat and moved on. Naturally I call those men who took up arms against the Mad KIng heroes, but that's for anotyher discussion. This is from a Targaryen persepctive.

If Aegon is as stupid as actually going after the houses who led the Rebellion he would be stupid. Aside from Jaime leading the rebellion against Aerys are dead.

2 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Also if you want to pardon people and that Aegon should forgive his enemies and come down as the Prince of Peace, why this talk of destroying House Lannister?

Jaime will be a special case. He'll abandon his house and family and fully embrace the life of a Targaryen Kingsguard. As he tried to do as a youth (and failed).

He won't really destroy House Lannister, only its claim/hold to the throne by ruining Cersei and her children. What the Lannisters in the West will do when they learn of Aegon and all that I cannot predict at this point. They could join him, they could do nothing, they could oppose him if Cersei gets there and/or allies with Euron. They could even end up in team Dany if they are enemies of Aegon's and/or Euron's by the time she arrives.

1 hour ago, Jaak said:

Taking the list of Kingsguards who took sides in civil wars...

Out of Maegor´s Kingsguard, 2 defected to Jaehaerys in Maegor´s lifetime and 5 did not. What did Jaehaerys do with those 5? None is mentioned to have fought for Aegon I,5.

Well, I wonder why the hell any king should accept turncloaks among his Kingsguard.

1 hour ago, Jaak said:

Ser Willis Fell is not remarked on. And Aegon III did, for some reason, keep ser Marston Waters - who got in Kingsguard for betraying his mother.

Waters most likely remained because Aegon III had no power of his own. And perhaps he was not in KL by the time Aegon II was murdered (he could have been with Borros Baratheon on the Kingsroad, I guess, or he could have accompanied Tyland and the others to Essos).

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

1. I would hope that Jaehaerys sent them to the Wall or killed them. They did serve a usurper and they did not manage to protect that usurper's life.

That would be very bad form, tyranny, even. Those men have to follow their orders. And Kingsguard named by Maegor would have been his men, anyway.

50 minutes ago, Jaak said:

At the point of fall of King´s Landing, Black forces were victorious there, and the Greens were in disarray - lord Jason Lannister fallen at Green Fork and Casterly Rock in "considerable disarray" under his widow lady Johanna, under siege by Dalton Greyjoy; Borros Baratheon fallen; Ormund Hightower fallen without accepted successor; Princess Jaehaera simple, and her whereabouts unspecified.

Nobody was leading Greens for negotiation. Yet the Blacks were making huge concessions.

The picture is clearer by now in the sense that Corlys Velaryon wanted to heal the rift between Black and Green and really pushed for peace treaty that included the remaining Greens. But the Blacks still ended up on top thanks to their military victory as well as the fact that Corlys could only make peace over the dead body of Aegon II. And whatever Greens remained at court were apparently perfectly fine with his murder considering that no one objected and of the guilty ones jumped on the chance to go to the Wall.

[Lost Melnibonean]

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess you should go back and reread the part about the younger, more beautiful queen which is part of Maggy's prophecy. Maggy never definitely mentions that the younger more beautiful person is going to be a queen but she specifies that her coming marks the end of Cersei being a queen - and that has not come yet nor will Brienne have anything to do with that. Not to mention that Brienne is never going to be more beautiful than Cersei. Jaime falling in love with Brienne tells us more about Jaime's tastes than about Brienne's beauty (or lack thereof).

Thinking about that for a moment - nothing in the text assumes that the person unmaking Queen Cersei is going to be female. Maggy never specifies the gender, Cersei only assumes a woman is meant. Aegon may be more beautiful than Cersei, as might be Arianne.

But I puzzled by the fact that you for some reason combine the valonqar prophecy and the younger more beautiful person with Jaime and Brienne. Jaime eventually killing Cersei as the valonqar does not have to be connected to Cersei's downfall in any way.

Take it or leave it. I don't really care...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/103783-new-queen-cersies-prophecy/&do=findComment&comment=5407935

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/122254-cersei’s-dream-cersei-viii-feast/&do=findComment&comment=6566404

[Jaak]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He won't really destroy House Lannister, only its claim/hold to the throne by ruining Cersei and her children.

It's not clear to me that he would.

As far as Aegon is concerned, Jaime is Kingslayer. Whereas Cersei is innocent of any wrongdoing against Aegon - she was just a daughter at Casterly Rock, innocent of her father's crimes.

Nor is she as yet guilty of initial resistance to Aegon - she's a prisoner of Faith with no power, therefore it's the Hand Mace and not Cersei who deserves a penalty. Although Aegon has not even publicly declared for crown yet - he needs to give Mace, Tommen and Cersei a reasonable time to bend the knee.

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I wonder why the hell any king should accept turncloaks among his Kingsguard.

Which ones were "turncloaks" for Jaehaerys - the 2 who deserted to him, or the 5 who didn't?

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That would be very bad form, tyranny, even. Those men have to follow their orders. And Kingsguard named by Maegor would have been his men, anyway.

How many of Maegor's 7 were Aenys' kingsguard?

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And whatever Greens remained at court were apparently perfectly fine with his murder considering that no one objected and of the guilty ones jumped on the chance to go to the Wall.

Do you think all the 20+ accused by Cregan were actually guilty?