Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating

[LiveFirstDieLater]

3 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Even in Westeros marrying 12 years old with the intention of consummating the marriage immediately (or soon after) is very much frowned upon. Even Viserys thought there was something wrong with Drogo because Drogo wanted a 13 year old bride.

And it was a forced marriage as sweetsunray said.

 

 

 

No, this is patently ridiculous, in medieval culture (and most of human history) a woman was a woman and thus of age to be married once she had her first period...

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And yet forced marriages are illegal in Westeros. Her not bending may actually become a point in part for an annulment. The whole court witnessed her unwillingness.

Again, this idea that it was some meaningful simbolic resistance is bizarre... If you want to say she should have made them drag her kicking and screaming I could respect that (fucking northern way, it's what I imagine little girl mormont would have done, or Arya, or run off like Lyanna)... Instead she humiliates the one guy who gave her any choice at all and then caves two seconds later... I can't respect that behavior

[shizett]

1 minute ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I think you might well be right but I am under the impression than a non-consumated marriage is easier to set aside...

I think the noncomsumated marriages can be annulled in front of the high Septon, so that's the minimum requirement.

But I thought @sweetsunray meant something else, Sansa mentions in one of her chapters that no one, not even the high Septon can make a girl get married.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, shizett said:

Are you basing this on what Sansa thinks to herself in one of her chapters (about the high septon)?

Because I think after she says that she would take Tyrion, she is lawfully wedded. They cannot make her say it, but if she does, then it stands (that's what I got from that passage).

There wasn't an actual sword, but she could argue duress: it wasn't a complete public wedding, only her enemies and enemy's bannermen, and their hostage. I'm basing it on the fact that the Faith considers forced marriages illegal. And that High Septon was also accused of corruption IIRC.

[shizett]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

There wasn't an actual sword, but she could argue duress: it wasn't a complete public wedding, only her enemies and enemy's bannermen, and their hostage. I'm basing it on the fact that the Faith considers forced marriages illegal. And that High Septon was also accused of corruption IIRC.

oh OK. Thanks.

I am really interested in this since many of the marriages we get in the story are forced one way or the other, so that passage always stood out to me.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Again, this idea that it was some meaningful simbolic resistance is bizarre... If you want to say she should have made them drag her kicking and screaming I could respect that (fucking northern way, it's what I imagine little girl mormont would have done, or Arya, or run off like Lyanna)... Instead she humiliates the one guy who gave her any choice at all and then caves two seconds later... I can't respect that behavior

Silent protest is keeping her own dignity, and imo fuck Tyrion's dignity. The moment he helped her be put into this situation where she learned her marriage fate but an hour before the ceremony, he conspired to force her into a marriage and threw away any manner of dealing with this in a mature manner, except 5 mins before that. Pffff. He deserves no respect, no regard, no consideration whatsoever in this regard. Absolutely none.

[Mladen]

3 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Again, this idea that it was some meaningful simbolic resistance is bizarre... If you want to say she should have made them drag her kicking and screaming I could respect that (fucking northern way, it's what I imagine little girl mormont would have done, or Arya, or run off like Lyanna)... Instead she humiliates the one guy who gave her any choice at all and then caves two seconds later... I can't respect that behavior

So, kicking and screaming wouldn't be humiliating for both her and Tyrion? This was cold, as cold can be... As Tyrion said, "she couldn't bent those Stark knees" The reference here is rather clear.

5 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

No, this is patently ridiculous, in medieval culture (and most of human history) a woman was a woman and thus of age to be married once she had her first period...

No, it isn't. Marrying 12-year-old girl is highly, highly, highly unusual. Especially sending her to bedding at that age. The world is not made of rapists, you know...

[Mladen]

4 minutes ago, shizett said:

oh OK. Thanks.

I am really interested in this since many of the marriages we get in the story are forced one way or the other, so that passage always stood out to me.

No, they are not. Most marriages are actually arranged. There is a big difference between those two.

What I said previously in this thread on the subject...

Quote

 

In society Tyrion and Sansa live, it is far below Sansa to marry someone like Tyrion. Is it fair? Well, we know that Tyrion is overall decent human being so, no it isn't. But, it is how the world operates. Furthermore, while ladies of medieval times didn't have too much saying whom they would marry, the arranged marriages were also done with the proper introduction, courtship and engagement. When you build a political alliance on something like marriage, you want that to work. That is why Brandon and Catelyn have been engaged for a while, why Lyanna was at Harrenhal (probably to get more acquainted with Robert), why Tywin wanted Lysa for Jaime, or why Doran was offering the likes of Walder Frey to Arianne. That is why the usual practice is that you have bride and groom of similar age, status and beauty, because after all, that union needs to be functional. Tying families through marriage is not a simple task so everyone are focused on making it work. Why Olenna killed Joffrey? Because she knew that they could end up with the fiasco.

That brings us to Sansa and Tyrion. This wasn't arranged wedding, but forced one. Yes, the level of consent varies, but ladies usually have a say. Not perhaps the definite one, but their father don't tell them "even if you scream, yell, I will have you beaten to the altar". Those women had choice, something Sansa didn't. Let we just assume that Lysa said no to marriage with Jon Arryn. What would Hoster do? He will be mad for a while, but he would have found her someone else, to strengthen his alliances. Possibly someone more to Lysa's liking. That is an element what we miss in this scenario and that is why this can't be comparable to the usual practices of arranged marriages.

 

 

[shizett]

2 minutes ago, Risto said:

No, they are not. Most marriages are actually arranged. There is a big difference between those two.

I get the difference, but we know some of them are forced, like Jeyne to Ramsey, probably Arya to her Frey husband, shadowcatrivers had some examples.

I meant those not the general arranged marriages.

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, shizett said:

I get the difference, but we know some of them are forced, like Jeyne to Ramsey, probably Arya to her Frey husband, shadowcatrivers had some examples.

I meant those not the general arranged marriages.

OK, I misinterpreted that. Although, I have spent many a day arguing that the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion wasn't as usual as people sometimes assume. Quite the contrary. 

[sweetsunray]

18 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

No, this is patently ridiculous, in medieval culture (and most of human history) a woman was a woman and thus of age to be married once she had her first period...

In medieval culture the average age of marriage, certainly consummation was for nobility between 16-18 for women, older for men. There are some cases of child marriages, but not consummated. And with common folk women were 18-20

[LiveFirstDieLater]

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Silent protest is keeping her own dignity, and imo fuck Tyrion's dignity. The moment he helped her be put into this situation where she learned her marriage fate but an hour before the ceremony, he conspired to force her into a marriage and threw away any manner of dealing with this in a mature manner, except 5 mins before that. Pffff. He deserves no respect, no regard, no consideration whatsoever in this regard. Absolutely none.

That's fine, but her "woe is me", petty, half hearted resistance isn't going to get my applause... As usual she's punishing the wrong party, he doesn't want to be there either... It's like her blaming Arya for the Trident, it's misplaced and not productive, even harmful.

She's thinking to herself how it should be someone big and strong, not a dwarf... That's all she protested, not the wedding itself (again I would respect making them drag her up there at sword point, that's protesting the wedding), not the Lannisters who did her harm (Cersei and Jeof love the mockery of the imp), and it doesn't save her dignity (she just highlights the same superficial judgment she's making in her head of Tyrion to the court) and then gives in a moment later (showing her lack of will, and/or realization that it was a pointless petty move).

I could respect real resistance, and I could respect carrying yourself like a gentle person, head held high, but the half hearted petty misdirected spitefullness just doesn't play for me...

but of course that's just my opinion

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

In medieval culture the average age of marriage, certainly consummation was for nobility between 16-18 for women, older for men. There are some cases of child marriages, but not consummated. And with common folk women were 18-20

I don't think this is at all accurate but I've only studied the time period for a few decades

just to add some examples:

• Henry III married Eleanor of Provence when he was 29 and she was 13. 
• Edward Longshanks married Eleanor of Castile when he was 15 and she was 13. 
  He married his second wife Margaret of France when he was 60 and she was 20. 
• Edward II married Isabella of France when he was 24 and she was 13. 
• Edward III married Philippa of Hainault when he was 15 and she was 13. 
• Richard II married Anne of Bohemia when he was 15 and she was 16. 
  He married his second wife Isabella of Valois when he was 29 and she was 6. (She was the king of France's daughter; this was an entirely political union.)
• Henry Bolingbroke married Mary de Bohun when he was 13 and she was 12. 

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

She's thinking to herself how it should be someone big and strong, not a dwarf... That's all she protested, not the wedding itself (again I would respect making them drag her up there at sword point, that's protesting the wedding), not the Lannisters who did her harm (Cersei and Jeof love the mockery of the imp), and it doesn't save her dignity (she just highlights the same superficial judgment she's making in her head of Tyrion to the court) and then gives in a moment later (showing her lack of will, and/or realization that it was a pointless petty move).

Not really, because she also thought she didn't want any Lannister. She simply recognizes that they're in it for her claim, even the non-Lannisters. And then at the altar she also thinks of someone big and strong... like the one she imagines she kissed, or imagines in her marriage bed. And I think she was always right not to confide nor to trust Tyrion.

[Land's End]

34 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Even in Westeros marrying 12 years old with the intention of consummating the marriage immediately (or soon after) is very much frowned upon. Even Viserys thought there was something wrong with Drogo because Drogo wanted a 13 year old bride.

 

I see that thrown around here a lot. I never read the scene that way. Viserys was mocking his sister, making fun of her childish physique, not her age. And later on, Dany is still described as having a rather boyish figure, small breasts etc. Viserys was making fun of her.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

6 minutes ago, Land's End said:

I see that thrown around here a lot. I never read the scene that way. Viserys was mocking his sister, making fun of her childish physique, not her age. And later on, Dany is still described as having a rather boyish figure, small breasts etc. Viserys was making fun of her.

And trying to sell her, he was concerned that Drogo might not like what he came to sell... Also he tried to rape her before the wedding, so all in all not the greatest example or person who's judgement I'd credit at all... (Goes without saying I hope but really fucked up too, as is marrying of young girls at age 12-13 when they have no say, but such is the story and such is history)

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I don't think this is at all accurate but I've only studied the time period for a few decades

From 4th century

" and where in the old indigenous religions, women married between 12 and 15 years of age (coinciding with puberty) and men married in their middle twenties, as Christianity expanded men married increasingly earlier and women married increasingly later" ( source: Herlihy, David. 1985. Medieval Households. Harvard University Press. Pgs. 17–19 )

" Indeed, Medieval England saw marriage age as variable depending on economic circumstances, with couples delaying marriage until the early twenties when times were bad and the average age falling to the late teens after the Black Death, when there were labor shortages;" (source: Hanawalt, Barbara A. 1986. The Ties That Bound: Peasant Families in Medieval England. Oxford University Press, Inc. Pg 96 )

" by appearances, marriage of adolescents was not the norm in England" (source: Hanawalt, p. 98-100 )

" The sudden loss of people from the plague resulted in a glut of lucrative jobs for many people and more people could afford to marry young, lowering the age at marriage to the late teens and thus increasing fertility." (source: Lehmberg, Stanford E. and Samantha A. Meigs. 2008. The Peoples of the British Isles: A New History: From Prehistoric Times to 1688. Lyceum Books. Pg. 117 )

" To curb secret marriages and remind young couples of parental power, the Medieval Church encouraged prolonged courtship, arrangements and monetary logistics, informing the community of the wedding, and finally the formal exchange of vows. " (source: Coontz, Stephanie. 2005. Marriage, a History: From Obedience to Intimacy, or How Love Conquered Marriage. New York City: Viking Press, Penguin Group Inc. Pg 107 )

" The average age at first marriage had gradually risen again by late sixteenth century; the population had stabilized and availability of jobs and land had lessened. In the last decades of the century the age at marriage had climbed to averages of 25 for women and 27 for men in England and the Low Countries as more people married later or remained unmarried due to lack of money or resources and a decline in living standards, and these averages remained high for nearly two centuries and averages across Northwestern Europe had done likewise." (source: De Moor, 2009. Pg 17 )

" The common belief in Elizabethan England was that motherhood before 16 was dangerous; popular manuals of health, as well as observations of married life, led Elizabethans to believe that early marriage and its consummation permanently damaged a young woman's health, impaired a young man's physical and mental development, and produced sickly or stunted children. Therefore, 18 came to be considered the earliest reasonable age for motherhood and 20 and 30 the ideal ages for women and men, respectively, to marry. Shakespeare might also have reduced Juliet's age from sixteen to fourteen to demonstrate the dangers of marriage at too young of an age; " (source: Franson, J. Karl. 1996. "Too Soon Marr'd": Juliet's Age as Symbol in 'Romeo and Juliet.' Papers on Language & Literature, Vol. 32, No. 3 )

[LiveFirstDieLater]

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

From 4th century

" and where in the old indigenous religions, women married between 12 and 15 years of age (coinciding with puberty) and men married in their middle twenties, as Christianity expanded men married increasingly earlier and women married increasingly later" ( source: Herlihy, David. 1985. Medieval Households. Harvard University Press. Pgs. 17–19 )

" Indeed, Medieval England saw marriage age as variable depending on economic circumstances, with couples delaying marriage until the early twenties when times were bad and the average age falling to the late teens after the Black Death, when there were labor shortages;" (source: Hanawalt, Barbara A. 1986. The Ties That Bound: Peasant Families in Medieval England. Oxford University Press, Inc. Pg 96 )

" by appearances, marriage of adolescents was not the norm in England" (source: Hanawalt, p. 98-100 )

" The sudden loss of people from the plague resulted in a glut of lucrative jobs for many people and more people could afford to marry young, lowering the age at marriage to the late teens and thus increasing fertility." (source: Lehmberg, Stanford E. and Samantha A. Meigs. 2008. The Peoples of the British Isles: A New History: From Prehistoric Times to 1688. Lyceum Books. Pg. 117 )

" To curb secret marriages and remind young couples of parental power, the Medieval Church encouraged prolonged courtship, arrangements and monetary logistics, informing the community of the wedding, and finally the formal exchange of vows. " (source: Coontz, Stephanie. 2005. Marriage, a History: From Obedience to Intimacy, or How Love Conquered Marriage. New York City: Viking Press, Penguin Group Inc. Pg 107 )

" The average age at first marriage had gradually risen again by late sixteenth century; the population had stabilized and availability of jobs and land had lessened. In the last decades of the century the age at marriage had climbed to averages of 25 for women and 27 for men in England and the Low Countries as more people married later or remained unmarried due to lack of money or resources and a decline in living standards, and these averages remained high for nearly two centuries and averages across Northwestern Europe had done likewise." (source: De Moor, 2009. Pg 17 )

" The common belief in Elizabethan England was that motherhood before 16 was dangerous; popular manuals of health, as well as observations of married life, led Elizabethans to believe that early marriage and its consummation permanently damaged a young woman's health, impaired a young man's physical and mental development, and produced sickly or stunted children. Therefore, 18 came to be considered the earliest reasonable age for motherhood and 20 and 30 the ideal ages for women and men, respectively, to marry. Shakespeare might also have reduced Juliet's age from sixteen to fourteen to demonstrate the dangers of marriage at too young of an age; " (source: Franson, J. Karl. 1996. "Too Soon Marr'd": Juliet's Age as Symbol in 'Romeo and Juliet.' Papers on Language & Literature, Vol. 32, No. 3 )

Ya so I listed just a few examples I grabbed randomly above... And so we're clear Middle Ages doesn't usually extend to Elizabethan times... Nor is Sansa a peasant...

12-13 wasn't unusual for the aristaucracy during the Middle Ages... There are lots more examples from history if you'd like them...

but it's sort of immaterial anyway since there are so many examples from the series of woman being married at that age (Elia Martel comes to mind).. Not defending the practice just pointing out its existence 

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

12-13 wasn't unusual for the aristaucracy during the Middle Ages... There are lots more examples from history if you'd like them...

Do you mean the Italian issue of the dowry? Here the issue was that the expected dowry increased with the age of the daughter. Plenty of fathers forged the papers to make their daughters appear younger than they were. Kindof like people lowering their age so they are accepted as child refugees with the right to go to HS nowadays.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Do you mean the Italian issue of the dowry? Here the issue was that the expected dowry increased with the age of the daughter. Plenty of fathers forged the papers to make their daughters appear younger than they were. Kindof like people lowering their age so they are accepted as child refugees with the right to go to HS nowadays.

All the examples I used were kings of England... Seemed the best analogy. Not sure where Italy came from

but I think we're getting a bit side tracked... And I should say I enjoy the healthy(ish) debate

hope all have a great weekend

[sweetsunray]

34 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I don't think this is at all accurate but I've only studied the time period for a few decades

just to add some examples:

• Henry III married Eleanor of Provence when he was 29 and she was 13. 
• Edward Longshanks married Eleanor of Castile when he was 15 and she was 13. 
  He married his second wife Margaret of France when he was 60 and she was 20. 
• Edward II married Isabella of France when he was 24 and she was 13. 
• Edward III married Philippa of Hainault when he was 15 and she was 13. 
• Richard II married Anne of Bohemia when he was 15 and she was 16. 
  He married his second wife Isabella of Valois when he was 29 and she was 6. (She was the king of France's daughter; this was an entirely political union.)
• Henry Bolingbroke married Mary de Bohun when he was 13 and she was 12. 

When were the first children born? Almost all your examples are "royal marriage", which were an exception, not the rule for very obvious reasons. Church made 12 and 14 the minimum age of consent, but not consummation.

Here's a woman who examined 66 marriages of mideval times. Of those 66, average age for women was 17. 35% were <15. She gives an example of the marriage Louis IX of France and Margaret of Provence. He was 20, she 13. She did not have her first child however until she was 19. And she ended up having 11 children, with 1 to 3 years apart between each. So, what happened between her marriage at 13 and 18? It was most likely not consumed.

http://madeofwynn.net/2013/09/23/misuse-of-the-word-medieval-part-13-most-girls-married-old-guys/ 

The quotes I gave were mostly about commoners and middle class.