Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, Winter's Cold said:

Sansa had two choices: return to Winterfell with her sister and give up marrying Joffrey or stay in King's Landing and marry Joffrey betraying her father and the Stark household in the process. She chose the second. Thus, she is partly responsible for the situation that she's in. She knew about Joffrey's abusive nature from the Trident incident. She knew that Cersei was a cruel woman from that same incident. Despite knowing these things she still chose Joffrey and Cersei over her family.

No, she didn't. That wasn't the choice she had and she didn't consciously betrayed her father. It is not like she knew what the outcome would be. Again, blaming Sansa and saying that beating and abuse she endured is her own fault is, in my book, distasteful. 

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Land's End said:

You didn't post on the first two pages...

that would explain it.

[shizett]

6 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Sansa had two choices: return to Winterfell with her sister and give up marrying Joffrey or stay in King's Landing and marry Joffrey betraying her father and the Stark household in the process. She chose the second. Thus, she is partly responsible for the situation that she's in. She knew about Joffrey's abusive nature from the Trident incident. She knew that Cersei was a cruel woman from that same incident. Despite knowing these things she still chose Joffrey and Cersei over her family.

While I get your point, I do not think of her act as harshly.

What I would like to understand is why she throws away the trust that must have been built between her father and her throughout the years just because his father is not sucking up to her (which he does do to some extent), preferring Arya's life over Lady's, or his mistrust of Joff. It really surprises me every time I read GOT, because she starts questioning her father on EVERYTHING, even matters of state. Why?

[Winter's Cold]

4 minutes ago, Risto said:

No, she didn't. That wasn't the choice she had and she didn't consciously betrayed her father. It is not like she knew what the outcome would be. Again, blaming Sansa and saying that beating and abuse she endured is her own fault is, in my book, distasteful. 

So Sansa made a choice to side with people who she knew were abusive and cruel and it's not partly her fault that she's suffered beating and abuse. I could buy that "she didn't know" argument if the Trident incident didn't occur. But it did and it exposed Joffrey's and Cersei's true natures. 

[Land's End]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

that would explain it.

I’m still inclined to believe you’re right in not trusting my data. I surely miscounted a few members but I believe in the end the result (a rather equal distribution) wouldn’t change.

My goal wasn’t to give an exact account of how many male and female Sansa supporters and „accusers“ there are (because I’m too lazy to go through 27 pages and because some posters are neither supporters nor accusers but also not exactly neutral), but to give a quick sample that gives us an idea of the distribution and shows that it isn’t as conclusive (women = anti Sansa,) as WolfClaw claimed.

 

 

[sweetsunray]

22 minutes ago, shizett said:

What I would like to understand is why she throws away the trust that must have been built between her father and her throughout the years just because his father is not sucking up to her (which he does do to some extent), preferring Arya's life over Lady's, or his mistrust of Joff. It really surprises me every time I read GOT, because she starts questioning her father on EVERYTHING, even matters of state. Why?

Well, fathers normally did not use direct corrective authority over daughters in everyday life in feudal society. Toddler sons and girls were mostly a mother's responsibility to correct and punish for what they did or did not do while growing up, and this was often also relegated to nurses and such. At WF Catelyn and Septa Mordane are the ones who deal with making day-to-day decisions for the girls and Rickon. Meanwhile the father is the direct corrective authority over the boys. Arya's first chapter with both her mother and Septa Mordane waiting in her room illustrates this nicely, as does Bran's climbing chapter where we learn that while Cat does not want him to climb, she has to resort to all sorts of tactics, except actively forbidding him. She begs Ned to forbid him, but he doesn't want to. He's also the one who decides on the punishment for Bran, but not with Arya.

These roles and direct responsibilities get reversed when Ned leaves for KL. He only has direct practical authority over the girls, while Cat only has practical authority over the sons. And they both deal with this differently. Ned pretty much deals with Arya as he would with Bran, and that is not how Septa Mordane and Cat would have dealt with it. Mordane tends to villify Arya a lot and Cat does not correct the Septa on this. So, Sansa was indeed brought up with the prejudice that pretty much makes Arya the scapegoat. And when Ned does not correct Arya on certain things (and entirely differently than Cat when he does correct), this creates a situation where she begins to question her father's parenting. In her experience he's doing the "raising" of Arya all wrong. Add the fact that she's a preteen and he becomes the parent she rebels against. The important feudal mistake that Sansa makes in this regard is that even if fathers rarely busy themselves with day-to-day upbringing of their daughters, they are the feudal primary guardian and authority when it comes to marriages.

The trust you assume to have been built between Sansa and Ned over the years at WF was never there to begin with. Sansa did not know her father that well in this manner.

[Mladen]

19 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

So Sansa made a choice to side with people who she knew were abusive and cruel and it's not partly her fault that she's suffered beating and abuse. I could buy that "she didn't know" argument if the Trident incident didn't occur. But it did and it exposed Joffrey's and Cersei's true natures. 

So, well, your argument is that she went to Cersei knowing that her father would end up dead? Is that what you are arguing? I am not arguing that she hasn't been privy to Cersei and Joffrey;s true natures, but the fact that she didn't think the consequences would be so terrible. And once again, what point are you trying to make? That every victim of abuse is to be blamed because they put themselves in that position? 

[Winter's Cold]

 

 

24 minutes ago, Risto said:

So, well, your argument is that she went to Cersei knowing that her father would end up dead? Is that what you are arguing? I am not arguing that she hasn't been privy to Cersei and Joffrey;s true natures, but the fact that she didn't think the consequences would be so terrible. And once again, what point are you trying to make? That every victim of abuse is to be blamed because they put themselves in that position? 

Not even Cersei knew that Ned would end up dead. No my argument is that Sansa betrayed her father and the rest of the Stark household when she went to Cersei and told her the specifics of her father's plans. She put her father in a disadvantageous position by kaking herself a hostage. 

I have not said that all victims of abuse are to blane for their abuse. Characters like Jeyne Poole or Pia are free from any blame whatsoever for their situations. I have nothing but empathy for them. Characters like Sansa and Theon however did make specific choices that led to the situations in which they became victims of abuse. These characters also knew that their decisions were wrong but chose to do them anyway due to their selfish desires. Sansa wanted to become Queen. Theon wanted to become Prince of Winterfell. In the end, they both paid the price for their choices; Theon more so because his sins are far heavier than Sansa's.

[Springwatch]

In many ways, the Starks in Winterfell seem very like modern 21st century parents - openly affectionate, somewhat flexible with the rules, careful to teach the kids their values.

I'd expect this upbringing to produce well-adjusted kids with no difficulty forming attachments. Therefore I reject the theory that Sansa simply has a cold heart and no connection with her own family. So why does she act as she does?

Firstly, AGOT Sansa believes her dreams can come true, and she's dreaming big. She thinks she will be the best queen ever, the wisest and the most loved. If she tries hard enough, if she can just get it right, Joffrey will love her and be guided by her. When Ned is captive, she still hopes to free him in this way.

Secondly, the fact that it was Ned who killed Lady must have shocked and confused her hugely. Did he explain his reasons? Was she too traumatised (death of a warg), could she listen? Because at the end of the day, Ned accepted that Lady had to die, and killed her himself - which might seem to a distraught child that the adults all agreed. I suggest Sansa's teenage rebellion starts here.

[Mladen]

31 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

 

 

Not even Cersei knew that Ned would end up dead. No my argument is that Sansa betrayed her father and the rest of the Stark household when she went to Cersei and told her the specifics of her father's plans. She put her father in a disadvantageous position by kaking herself a hostage. 

I have not said that all victims of abuse are to blane for their abuse. Characters like Jeyne Poole or Pia are free from any blame whatsoever for their situations. I have nothing but empathy for them. Characters like Sansa and Theon however did make specific choices that led to the situations in which they became victims of abuse. These characters also knew that their decisions were wrong but chose to do them anyway due to their selfish desires. Sansa wanted to become Queen. Theon wanted to become Prince of Winterfell. In the end, they both paid the price for their choices; Theon more so because his sins are far heavier than Sansa's.

Answer me this, every woman who is beaten by her husband is to be blamed? They did "choose" their partners, after all. I am sorry, but I find rather repulsive logic in which we are going to say "It is OK that she was constantly beaten and sold like livestock because she was a fool". Not to mention that comparison between Sansa and Theon are way, way, way off. Theon was aggressor, someone who killed people and even then, what Ramsay did to him deserves no justification or excuse. Sansa didn't think about the possible consequences, she wasn't aware how things may end. She made a terrible mistake, yes, but saying that what Joffrey did is OK because "well, she deserved it. It is her fault" is like saying that every abused woman, who has ever been beaten by a husband, is to be blamed. And that is certainly the wrongest possible POV on the subject.

[David Selig]

I don't get this mentality at all. Sansa made a childish mistake and this means she deserved to be a captive for more than a year and beaten?

Yes, she disobeyed her father. Big deal. I disobeyed my parents almost every day when I was that age. So do 99% of children.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Secondly, the fact that it was Ned who killed Lady must have shocked and confused her hugely.

I agree with this. Normally Sansa is described as the good girl that is obedient to her parents.  Lady's death was traumatic and it was at her father's hands.  The demand for Lady's life as well as Mycah's was an awful unjust punishment and Robert was okay with it and Ned felt he had to go along with it.  I think subconsciously this was a factor in rebelling and not trusting her father's judgement when he was sending them away. Both girls were left grieving and angry without parental follow up to help process what happened.  

[Darksnider05]

1 hour ago, David Selig said:

I don't get this mentality at all. Sansa made a childish mistake and this means she deserved to be a captive for more than a year and beaten?

Yes, she disobeyed her father. Big deal. I disobeyed my parents almost every day when I was that age. So do 99% of children.

You disobeyed your parents in life or death situations or completely ignored instructions while in danger?  Your comparison seems extremely out of context.  After the Trident the danger was clear.

[Maxxine]

So I have a question about Sansa's behavior in her POV chapter right after she tell Cesei about Ned's plans. I believe it is her second to last chapter in Game. It's the chapter where she's locked up in her room while she hears the fighting. This is the chapter that, for me, Sansa can't come back from. The last reread I really put in the effort to give Sansa the benefit of the doubt and not judge her as harshly but after rereading this chapter I was done with her. But I'm still open to different opinions so here it goes.

What exactly is her mindset during this chapter? How much does she know? And knowing what she does how can she act like that? It's been awhile since I read but if memory serves she knows there was fighting in the castle. And it seems like she knows it's Lannister men against stark men or she may have pieced it together especially once Jeyne is thrown in the room. Yet I think it's about half way through the chapter before thinking of her father (and this after worrying about and/or asking for Joff & Cersei multiple times and she never thinks about Arya. She also just somewhat forgets about Jeyne (not in any way saying she could've predicted what happened to Jeyne but that's still her friend). Her seemingly lack of her concern for her family and the people she has known all of her life is what I can't get past. I maybe could get over every other thing she does in the first book if it weren't for this chapter. Even if you want to go with the she just a kid (which is not something I personally giver her a pass for considering the context of the book) even children know when danger is around and show concern for their family.

So how do Sansa supporters reconcile this chapter in particular? I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm actually really curious and want to hear opinions.

[Darkstream]

13 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

So Jory Cassel is murdered, her father is injured and Sansa has no idea why he's sending her away?

Ned explicitly states why he's sending Sansa back to Winterfell.

This is why it's hard to take the arguments of Sansa apologists seriously. You keep restating falsehoods in an attempt to absolve Sansa of any blame or personal responsibility. Do you think that if you lie enough, that your lie will become the truth? 

I would suggest that if you're going to make rude and unfounded accusations towards other posters, you might want to ensure that those comments don't apply to yourself.

Do you think that if you keep asserting that Sansa betrayed her family, it will become the truth?

[teej6]

2 hours ago, David Selig said:

I don't get this mentality at all. Sansa made a childish mistake and this means she deserved to be a captive for more than a year and beaten?

Yes, she disobeyed her father. Big deal. I disobeyed my parents almost every day when I was that age. So do 99% of children.

I think the point Winter's Cold was making is that in choosing to disobey Ned and go behind his back to Cersei, Sansa put herself in a situation where she would be held hostage and abused, not that she deserved to be abused. 

[teej6]

8 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

 ...Do you think that if you keep asserting that Sansa betrayed her family, it will become the truth?

Whether you want to believe it or not, Sansa did betray Ned's trust by revealing his plans to Cersei. There's no other interpretation of the text. And if you can't call that Sansa betraying her family, I don't know what is. You can argue that Sansa in her naiveté did not know her actions would have the consequences it had to her family but Sansa knew while running to Cersei that it was wrong and a betrayal of her father. 

[Morgana Lannister]

21 hours ago, Risto said:

Yeah... At the end of the day, we can't argue that either of them is evil. They just had tough time and had made some mistakes... Well, they have demons of their own to face, that is for sure.

That said, the reason why I am not sure that we will see Sansa as one half of some power couple is because I feel that Martin is shaping her to become sort of Elizabeth I figure - The Virgin Queen. Not necessarily the Queen or the virgin for that matter, but someone who will occupy the position of power (whatever that position may be) on her own. 

 

That is a very popular theory actually and one that ties with the fact that George has admitted drawing inspiration from the War of the Roses.  To me they are together more like Elizabeth of York and Henry VII; however their dynasty indeed led to the Virgin Queen and I am sure that George is not going to replicate the story exactly, so I guess so.  My bad feeling has always been that they will be a super power couple for a while but that one of them will die at the end of the series, which could still tally with your idea of the single ruler; might refuse to remarry or something but hey this is all speculation and it gets very fueled by us readers because we are so ... awaiting the next book lol however I still put my wager on them together bringing down LF lol whether they go their separate ways or not after but, again, only George knows...

[Darkstream]

4 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Whether you want to believe it or not, Sansa did betray Ned's trust by revealing his plans to Cersei. There's no other interpretation of the text. And if you can't call that Sansa betraying her family, I don't know what is. You can argue that Sansa in her naiveté did not know her actions would have the consequences it had to her family but Sansa knew while running to Cersei that it was wrong and a betrayal of her father. 

Well, I must say I'm quite distraught and disappointed in myself. It seems that I have betrayed my loving parents time and again throughout the majority of my youth. And all this time I had thought that I was a pretty decent son.

[teej6]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

 ...The trust you assume to have been built between Sansa and Ned over the years at WF was never there to begin with. Sansa did not know her father that well in this manner.

I don't think we have textual evidence indicating that Sansa lacked trust in Ned's judgement or ever went against it before the incident with Cersei. We may make the assumption that Ned had a stronger relationship with Arya because GRRM gives us far more insight into this relationship than Ned and Sansa's. We know from Sansa's thoughts that she had some doubts about Ned's parenting of Arya from her recollection of Arya bringing Ned the wildflowers. Sansa expected Ned to be angry with Arya and punish her, instead Ned accepted the flowers and hugged Arya, which Sansa disapproved of. So yes, Sansa probably understands her father less than Arya does. Arya we know observed and understood Ned's leadership and relationship with his men and thus trusted in her father's abilities and judgement fully. 

After Ned refused to sent Loras to fight and bring justice to Gregor, Sansa's questions her father's judgement but she excuses it because of the injury to his leg. So this implies that Sansa thinks well of her father's judgment under normal circumstances.