Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating

[shizett]

On 25/09/2016 at 7:42 PM, sweetsunray said:

No, that's not true. The food boycot is done to have LF surrender SR to them. They're not trying to figure out what happened to Lysa. Lysa isn't even mentioned at the parlay. Either you're mixing up chapters or jumbling them all together, or you are relying on a show scene that was absolute rubbish.

I took your suggestion and read the chapters (including the snow castle chapter and TWOW Alayne). I do not have the books, it took me a couple of days to get them and some more to actually read them.

You were right to say that I mis-remembered some details and mixed some others, but not in that way. I thought the reason the Lords declared was not because of Lysa's death, but the manner of her death and how LF managed Nestor Royce afterwards. I was obviously wrong.

On 25/09/2016 at 7:42 PM, sweetsunray said:

Afterwards, in the tWoW chapter LF mentioned it to Sansa, when she proposed the tourney. Those wars are done. Her family killed already, and it's winter, when the lords would be utterly nuts if they went sieging in the North. Only people like Stannis who are already in the North and in a desperate situation have nothing to lose by warring in winter.

I read this also. She also tell herself that Bronze Yohn did not fight for Robb, neither will he do so for her.

Though, I did not mean that they would fight on her behalf, but that they would ensure her safety and keep her secret, that was all.

On 25/09/2016 at 7:42 PM, sweetsunray said:

Sansa is no heir of the Vale. She has no legitimacy to the Vale. None whatsoever. Lysa only had legitimacy to the Vale as "regent". The only two people we know of who have legitimacy to the Vale are SR and Harry. SR is a minor, so whomever has him gets to call himself regent and derive legitimate power that way. Harry is already of age, so there will be no regent. He'll rule himself, but will listen to advizors.

Oh, I must have worded my response wrongly if you thought I meant she was the heir in any way.

I was arguing that LF's legitimacy came from Lysa who was SR's mother. Since I think LF has little influence over SR if not for Alayne (and I still think that way), he cannot be sure that the kid always behaves as is asked of him. If they are in the Vale (and not up in Eyrie) he cannot keep the little lord away.

The rest I agree with.

On 25/09/2016 at 7:42 PM, sweetsunray said:

You also totally miscomprehend my point. I did not argue against or for LF having murder plans. I point out that LF said nothing to Sansa that could be taken as "her knowing he's going to murder SR and her going along with it." SR is a sickly boy. Sansa notes several times how weak he is, how light he weighs, and his shaking spells. She can see he's sick. Heck, at some point she wonder whether he's going mad too (when he insists that Marillion is still playing at night, while Sansa hasn't heard him play anymore and believes he jumped out of his sky cell). LF only explicitly implies to her that it is certain that SR will die and he cites sickness being the reason.

Well, While I agree with your points, I don't think it is unreasonable for Sansa to realize that LF is specifically dangerous to be around the kid.

Sansa notes herself that Lysa killed her husband (no-one ever explicitly mentions that to Sansa):

Quote

She murdered her own lord husband, and would have murdered me if Petyr had not come along to save me. (aFfC, Sansa I)

, so she must have pieced it out from Lysa's confessions. Lysa confesses in the same speech that LF asked her to put the tears in Jon's wine and LF tells her to mind what she is saying so that Sana or Marillion would not hear too much. So, LF has killed SR's Dad (by proxy) and Mom. Now he is talking about Harry being the ruler of Vale and SR dying. Maester Coleman tells LF in front of Sansa and then directly to Sansa that sweetsleep is dangerous and he is being made by LF to give it to him, this is Sansa's response:

Quote

Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns. (aFfC, Alayne II)

So, no. It is not like Sansa doesn't know, she just doesn't care enough.

 

On 25/09/2016 at 7:42 PM, sweetsunray said:

Where do you get the idea that LF has very little influence over SR? He has plenty of influence over the boy. The boy is scared of LF and does what LF tells him to.

Oh, this is based on text actually. He is afraid of him, true, but he doesn't do everything he tells him to. Alayne has way more influence over SR and LF is obviously taking advantage of it.

This is one example:

Quote

"Your mother is dead, my lord. Until your sixteenth name day, I rule the Eyrie." Petyr turned to the stoop-backed serving woman hovering near the kitchen steps. "Mela, fetch his lordship a new spoon. He wants to eat his porridge."

"I do not! Let my porridge fly!" This time Robert flung the bowl, porridge and honey and all. Petyr Baelish ducked aside nimbly, but Maester Colemon was not so quick.(aFfC, Alayne I)

 

On 25/09/2016 at 7:42 PM, sweetsunray said:

But LF would actually be a fool imo if he was to kill SR anytime soon. He loses his regency and the young man who's been Waynwood's ward and has been shown favors and groomed by Bronze Yohn for years who is in no need of a regent would become Lord. Harry doesn't trust LF at all. And his distrust initially extends to Sansa too. But somehow certain readers seem to think that when Harry consents to a betrothal to Alayne he'll suddenly turn on Bronze Yohn and embrace LF as his most trusted advizor. That readers even imagine LF to believe this is beyond me. 

I agree with you completely here. The point is Sansa doesn't, she doesn't go through the process of thinking SR is safe since it is in LF's best interest.

On 25/09/2016 at 7:42 PM, sweetsunray said:

And in Sansa's eyes the LD are strangers, who are willing to half-besiege their own sickly lord of the Vale, in order to get political power over him, and have a crazy sword drawing guy like Lyn with them (which she learns before they even arrive). And she should entrust her life and her secret with people who would do that to their own high lord, because she's SR's cousin through his Tully mother? Even if we assume that Waynwood and Yohn Royce might be in heaven's clouds if they had Sansa Stark and willing to support her claim, without trying to marry her to one of their sons first, it's a good thing she didn't, because Lyn Corbray is in LF's pocket, and as we learn later is always short of cash and mercenary. Oh, and he has no lands. He'd be the first to run to Cersei with her, or force her to marry him. And you can bet, he'd consume it, even if he prefers men.

Well, Sansa could have directly told Bronze Yohn, it need not be so open and public, did it?

On 25/09/2016 at 7:42 PM, sweetsunray said:

Anyhow, what you're doing is first of all mixing up chapters (I do urge a reread of the aFfC Chapters, there are only 3) and events, and you use your own personal speculation of what LF may or may not do, to decide in one fell swoop whether Sansa is immoral or not, while you have no textual evidence that she a) understands LF wants to murder SR b ) agrees to such a plan.

Well I did take your advice and read Sansa's chapters, and I never said she was immoral, I said she was amoral. I know it usually is not used for humans, but Sansa just has no regard for morality, it does not come into play in her decision making process. She rarely has a notion of right or wrong when it does not concern her directly or about people she has already decided based on personal experience to be bad.

I personally believe the reason a lot of people do not see her progress is that while for example it seems like he thinks well of Tyrion or thinks ill of Lf, it almost never plays into her actions towards them. So, why is it even important if she can understand it?

[Dya of Oldstones]

31 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I feel that Sansa's development is one of the most interesting and best written ones - from the naive and selfish and stupid and arrogant girl in the first books towards her role as Alayne tutored by Littlefinger. Only matched - in my opinion - by the evolution around Doran Martell and his family in Dorne (being totally nuked to a ridicule in the TV Show).

I remember having read somewhere, that GRRM regretted to have written the Sansa-Cersei-betrayal (AGOT) in Sansa's storyline. (Has that already been mentioned in this thread? I have not read all of it).

That is indeed a bit too much away from being naive and stupid, tending to clear (family) betrayal.

Nevertheless, personally I do not like Sansa - gods helps her if Arya should ever learn the truth about Sansa's betrayal, e.g. from Tyrion.

Interesting you should bring up the Martells, since Sansa/Arya parallel Doran/Oberon. Not to mention part of Arya's training is in poisons. Doran also gets quite a bit of hate in these here parts for being... well...not proactive enough. 

I'm almost direct opposite of @Woman of War on Sansa. She's one of my top 5 book characters, but on the show, I mostly find her running the gamut between annoying and insufferable. 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

I am going to do a complete rejection of the idea that Sansa rejected Tyrion because he was "ugly", a dwarf, didn't speak to him because she was "self-absorbed" and didnt even care about her mother and brother's deaths.

Some posters in here are claiming that all Sansa cares about is handsome white knights, and that's the main reason she didn't warm up to the man she was forced to marry at swordpoint.

While somehow Tyrion had absolutely no choice in the matter apparently (he did, but his other option was Lollys), it's totally okay and understandable that he desires a hot women and a hot wife (he chose Sansa over Lollys, of course!) but somehow it's not okay for Sansa to desire a handsome guy (what even is female desire, guys?) .

 

Let's see Sansa's wedding day:

Quote

When the moonstones hung from Sansa's ears and about her neck, the queen nodded. "Yes. The gods have been kind to you, Sansa. You are a lovely girl. It seems almost obscene to squander such sweet innocence on that gargoyle."

"What gargoyle?" Sansa did not understand. Did she mean Willas? How could she know? No one knew, but her and Margaery and the Queen of Thorns . . . oh, and Dontos, but he didn't count.

Cersei Lannister ignored the question. "The cloak," she commanded, and the women brought it out: a long cloak of white velvet heavy with pearls. A flerce direwolf was embroidered upon it in silver thread. Sansa looked at it with sudden dread. "Your father's colors," said Cersei, as they fastened it about her neck with a slender silver chain.

A maiden's cloak. Sansa's hand went to her throat. She would have torn the thing away if she had dared.

"You're prettier with your mouth closed, Sansa," Cersei told her. "Come along now, the septon is waiting. And the wedding guests as well."

"No," Sansa blurted. "No."

"Yes. You are a ward of the crown. The king stands in your father's place, since your brother is an attainted traitor. That means he has every right to dispose of your hand. You are to marry my brother Tyrion."

My claim, she thought, sickened. Dontos the Fool was not so foolish after all; he had seen the truth of it. Sansa backed away from the queen. "I won't." I'm to marry Willas, I'm to be the lady of Highgarden, please . . .

"I understand your reluctance. Cry if you must. In your place, I would likely rip my hair out. He's a loathsome little imp, no doubt of it, but marry him you shall."

 

"You can't make me."

 

"Of course we can. You may come along quietly and say your vows as befits a lady, or you may struggle and scream and make a spectacle for the stableboys to titter over, but you will end up wedded and bedded all the same." The queen opened the door. Ser Meryn Trant and Ser Osmund Kettleblack were waiting without, in the white scale armor of the Kingsguard. "Escort Lady Sansa to the sept," she told them. "Carry her if you must, but try not to tear the gown, it was very costly."

 

Sansa tried to run, but Cersei's handmaid caught her before she'd gone a yard. Ser Meryn Trant gave her a look that made her cringe, but Kettleblack touched her almost gently and said, "Do as you're told, sweetling, it won't be so bad. Wolves are supposed to be brave, aren't they?"

Yeah. She had tremendous choice in the matter, as is evident from this passage. She could have been carried kicking and screaming to the altar, after all. /sarcasm

 

Quote

Brave. Sansa took a deep breath. I am a Stark, yes, I can be brave. They were all looking at her, the way they had looked at her that day in the yard when Ser Boros Blount had torn her clothes off. It had been the Imp who saved her from a beating that day, the same man who was waiting for her now. He is not so bad as the rest of them, she told herself. "I'll go."

Cersei smiled. "I knew you would."

 

Quote

Tyrion wore a doublet of black velvet covered with golden scrollwork, thigh-high boots that added three inches to his height, a chain of rubies and lions' heads. But the gash across his face was raw and red, and his nose was a hideous scab. "You are very beautiful, Sansa," he told her.

 

"It is good of you to say so, my lord." She did not know what else to say. Should I tell him he is handsome? He'll think me a fool or a liar. She lowered her gaze and held her tongue.

 

"My lady, this is no way to bring you to your wedding. I am sorry for that. And for making this so sudden, and so secret. My lord father felt it necessary, for reasons of state. Else I would have come to you sooner, as I wished." He waddled closer. "You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did. If I had refused you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel. Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age, and fairer to look upon. If that is your wish, say so, and I will end this farce."

 

Now, why didn't Sansa choose the handsome Lancel, I wonder?

Quote

I don't want any Lannister, she wanted to say. I want Willas, I want Highgarden and the puppies and the barge, and sons named Eddard and Bran and Rickon. But then she remembered what Dontos had told her in the godswood. Tyrell or Lannister, it makes no matter, it's not me they want, only my claim. "You are kind, my lord," she said, defeated. "I am a ward of the throne and my duty is to marry as the king commands."

 

He studied her with his mismatched eyes. "I know I am not the sort of husband young girls dream of, Sansa," he said softly, "but neither am I Joffrey."

 

"No," she said. "You were kind to me. I remember."

 

Tyrion offered her a thick, blunt-fingered hand. "Come, then. Let us do our duty."

 

So she put her hand in his, and he led her to the marriage altar, where the septon waited between the Mother and the Father to join their lives together. 

If someone can kindly point out where she rejected Tyrion on the basis of his looks in this passage, I'd be glad. From her own thoughts, it's evident she didn't want a Lannister.

 

[Mladen]

Quote

 

Lancel's condition?

Tyrion didn't want the wedding any more than Sansa, and didn't even consummate the marriage as he was told to... I'm not usually one to give any credit for not raping someone, but this might be an exception.

And I love how your argument is that Sansa is hot so it's ok she didn't want to marry a dwarf? I mean sure she should be able to choose a husband based on whatever standards she would like (totally disregarding any of the practical/societal norms for a medieval culture, aka ladies/princesses don't get a say in their spouses, same is generally true for men), but I'm sure as hell going to judge her, and you, and anyone else that thinks it's ok to judge the man because of his name and because he's a dwarf. That's just morals 101.

Lancel was wounded at the time and Kevan suggested that he would have been unable to consummate the marriage. It is a fact that Tyrion knew which made his offer rather empty.

 

No, Tyrion didn't want to get married, but he preferred THAT wedding far more than Sansa. I do give him credit for not raping her, but if that is a threshold, if we value people for "not raping" then I guess the likes of Petyr Baelish, Viserys Targaryen, Cersei and Tywin Lannister and millions of others are just dandy. I won't run from the fact that even though Tyrion had hots for Sansa, he restrained himself, making him truly a decent being, but putting him on the moral highground for not raping 12-year-old girl, that is a bit reaching.

Also, I would appreciate you not trying to distort what I have rather clearly said. In society Tyrion and Sansa live, it is far below Sansa to marry someone like Tyrion. Is it fair? Well, we know that Tyrion is overall decent human being so, no it isn't. But, it is how the world operates. Furthermore, while ladies of medieval times didn't have too much saying whom they would marry, the arranged marriages were also done with the proper introduction, courtship and engagement. When you build a political alliance on something like marriage, you want that to work. That is why Brandon and Catelyn have been engaged for a while, why Lyanna was at Harrenhal (probably to get more acquainted with Robert), why Tywin wanted Lysa for Jaime, or why Doran was offering the likes of Walder Frey to Arianne. That is why the usual practice is that you have bride and groom of similar age, status and beauty, because after all, that union needs to be functional. Tying families through marriage is not a simple task so everyone are focused on making it work. Why Olenna killed Joffrey? Because she knew that they could end up with the fiasco.

That brings us to Sansa and Tyrion. This wasn't arranged wedding, but forced one. Yes, the level of consent varies, but ladies usually have a say. Not perhaps the definite one, but their father don't tell them "even if you scream, yell, I will have you beaten to the altar". Those women had choice, something Sansa didn't. Let we just assume that Lysa said no to marriage with Jon Arryn. What would Hoster do? He will be mad for a while, but he would have found her someone else, to strengthen his alliances. Possibly someone more to Lysa's liking. That is an element what we miss in this scenario and that is why this can't be comparable to the usual practices of arranged marriages.

Sansa doesn't judge him by his name. She is very much aware of his kindness, but she can't reject the fact that Tyrion is indeed very much supporting the current regime with Joffrey as King, a regime that killed her father and went into war against her family. 

 

[Morgana Lannister]

21 hours ago, Maxxine said:

I completely agree that sometimes you have to ask for help. That could even be considered the proactive thing to do. By no means am I saying that Sansa should have or could have gotten out of KL by herself. But she is not even asking for help. She is waiting for help. That's the difference & that's the issue I have. To me, she's just resigned to either I'm going to die, be raped, be beaten or some combination of all 3 or someone's going to rescue me. Or to use your modern analogy she hasn't asked her friends for a loan. She sitting on the couch as she goes into more debt hoping a rich man comes along to pay off mortgage and she's not even putting in the effort to find the rich man. She's just hoping he shows up.

ill admit she's in a bad situation & idk how much could've been done but she doesn't even consider trying to help herself. It's the shining white knight or bust. To me, there are some situations that stand out where she at least could've thought about taking some initiative. She notices Oakheart (I think) doesn't hit her as hard and the hound won't hit her at all. At least consider trying to use this to your advantage. Tyrion defends her. Even before the marriage why not consider getting his help. Btw I try not to fault her too much for Tyrion bc it's understandable that's she leery of Lannisters but still. Even Dontos. She saved his life & she doesn't even consider that he may owe her a debt and could be useful. And I'm not saying any of these ideas would've worked. I'm just saying those are ideas that could've been considered so she could think about trying to help herself

I hope that explains my issue a little more. I don't mind that she got rescued or that she actually needed rescuing. It's the attitude that she has of there is nothing I can do to help myself. Either someone going to come save me or I'm screwed. Just like to prototypical damsel in distress story. I understand that GRRM most likely did this on purpose to put in that fantasy trope. I'm just not a fan of it and it's a part of the reason why I'm not a Sansa fan

Okay, you have explained the difference really well here I think and I agree.  Yes, reaching out to someone, although that could have proved very dangerous, would have been the way forward.  Tyrion's hands were tied, the Hound's (until Blackwater), pretty much too, same for anyone serving the Crown i.e. the Lannisters, and Dontos ended up doing it anyhow (although yes, he - in cohorts wtih LF took the initiative) but I do see what you mean .  Personally, I think even at that age I would have sought potential allies but I think that is something the author did to show a great arc. She was passive then and very naive indeed but I feel that a lot of us who are fans of her are so because of how she has changed.  She has gone from what you rightly describe to what she notices (and I think will at some point act upon) in the released chapter from Winds of Winter.   George admits that he likes to make things a little extreme so I think this is one of them; show us a defenseless and perhaps too passive a character who matures into a game player and even learns how to manipulate successfully but without further events from the  books it is still unclear, of course, if she will just learn to "notice" the game or whether she will "act upon it."

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, shizett said:

I never said she was immoral, I said she was amoral. I know it usually is not used for humans, but Sansa just has no regard for morality, it does not come into play in her decision making process. She rarely has a notion of right or wrong when it does not concern her directly or about people she has already decided based on personal experience to be bad.

I think you make an interesting point here about amorality. Her sense of right and wrong is mostly law-based, and against those who harm 'me and mine'. Society says that girls and commoners aren't supposed to play wooden swords (or so she thinks... but it's child's play. Pretty sure nobody threatens boys in Flea Bottom at playing Dunk & Egg), so Sansa considers Arya and Mycah as being bad. Law says you can't strike royalty. And though Arya is "mine" she has an antagonistic relationship with Arya at the time, and she wants to make Joffrey "hers", and Sandor only did what he was told to do by the Queen. Her sense of right and wrong at the start certainly is not strong, nor independent, and rather fluid and easily manipulated.

I wouldn't say it's completely absent though and that she is amoral. Because her inherent reaction at Joffrey's Name Day Tourney is to speak up against killing Dontos. Dontos was not some handsome knight, nor someone she regarded as mine. Her initial response to his death is also very inherent. But then LF tells her Dontos only did it for the money, and is untrustworthy, yadayada... She has several conflicting wishes and emotions regarding Marillion, but whereas she didn't need to remind herself that x or y was a bad person who deserved to die for a crime he didn't commit, she tries to actively argue with herself that Marillion was a bad guy, so deserves to die, though it's wrong to lie, etc..

An inherent sense of right & wrong is developing and not as willing to be persuaded as before. She still rationalizes those choices, but it's becoming harder to do imo.

So, I would say her ethics and inherent sense of right & wrong is underdeveloped in aGoT, but is strengthening, though still amenable by manipulation and persuasion.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Continued...

Quote

He had expected anguish and anger when he told her of her brother's death, but Sansa's face had remained so still that for a moment he feared she had not understood. It was only later, with a heavy oaken door between them, that he heard her sobbing. Tyrion had considered going to her then, to offer what comfort he could. No, he had to remind himself, she will not look for solace from a Lannister.

Quote

Lannister reached out and took her hand, and gave it a squeeze. "I am only a little lion, child, and I vow, I shall not savage you." Bowing, he said, "But now you must excuse me. I have urgent business with queen and council."

Sansa watched him walk off, his body swaying heavily from side to side with every step, like something from a grotesquerie. He speaks more gently than Joffrey, she thought, but the queen spoke to me gently too. He's still a Lannister, her brother and Joff's uncle, and no friend. Once she had loved Prince Joffrey with all her heart, and admired and trusted his mother, the queen. They had repaid that love and trust with her father's head. Sansa would never make that mistake again.

It's quite funny - the fact that she doesn't trust Tyrion is actually her learning from her mistakes. She trusted Cersei and Joffrey once, got burned. Now she is cautious with Tyrion, who's the brother of Cersei and was former Hand of the King. How exactly should she know that this guy is trustworthy? Being nice doesn't mean he is not interested in the welfare of his family.

 

Still, she defends him to LF:

Quote

 Sometimes she dreamed of Tyrion as well. "He did nothing," she told Littlefinger once, when he paid a visit to her cabin to see if she were feeling any better.

"He did not kill Joffrey, true, but the dwarf's hands are far from clean. He had a wife before you, did you know that?"

and in her own mind:

Quote

He saved Alayne, his daughter, a voice within her whispered. But she was Sansa too . . . and sometimes it seemed to her that the Lord Protector was two people as well. He was Petyr, her protector, warm and funny and gentle . . . but he was also Littlefinger, the lord she'd known at King's Landing, smiling slyly and stroking his beard as he whispered in Queen Cersei's ear. And Littlefinger was no friend of hers. When Joff had her beaten, the Imp defended her, not Littlefinger. When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, not Littlefinger. When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger. 

 

About the Hound, yeah....I'm not going into that, there are much better analyses out there. Suffice to say that if I dreamed of a man kissing me when he actually didnt, it would only be if I'm attracted to him. And he is no "handsome white knight."

 

[Morgana Lannister]

20 hours ago, zandru said:

David Selig asserts

Not at all. Sansa might have noticed the dynamic between Tyrion and his sister. If she'd ever bothered to talk to him, instead of sitting around sullenly refusing to speak at all, she'd have realized how much he hated Cersei and also his father Tywin. So he's "a Lannister" - that's all Sansa is capable of seeing, too. She sets aside the times Tyrion helped her, focusing on his surname and his ugliness and his dwarfism.

Sansa is supposed to have the super-empathy, the super-mannerliness, the super-sensitivity to others. If this were the case (and clearly, it's not), she would have engaged her unwanted husband and gained his sympathy. This nonsense about Tyrion being "a misogenistic scumbag" is absurd. Tyrion LOVED women, and he wanted them to love him back. Nobody did, which is why he spent so much time paying the women who would act as if they did. That's not "misogyny", it's just pathetic.

Tyrion was open and vulnerable to the least show of affection from Sansa. He clearly felt terrible that she was feeling bad about him, blaming himself even more than he deserved. But Sansa was too self-absorbed to notice anything but her own little fee-fees. And, as with the Hound, she couldn't handle his scarred face or overall unattractiveness. So she remained passive, doing nothing, nada, zippo, to help herself or otherwise deal with her situation. Waitin' on that handsome knight on a white horse to ride up, yo!

 

 

Whereas I completely agree with your analysis of Tyrion on this one, I think you might judge her a little harshly.  I see him as you do and it hurt me that she was so cold towards him but then again he was older and a hell of a lot more perceptive than her at the time.  Sansa was lonely and confused and felt very betrayed, well by Joffrey mainly, but that could justify a little under-perception and slight paranoia when it comes to Lannisters.  I guess in today's day we would call that post traumatic stress disorder (after Ned's decapitation).  I grant you other characters seem to get the message a bit quicker, and this world is a lot more brutal than the one we live in but still... 

Again, going back to why some of us like her arc is because she is changing and I think the author wanted a extreme difference in the "before and after" as it were.  She later on kind of fantasizes about the Hound (that imaginary kiss thing) and thinks fondly of Tyrion (chapter in next book) so I think we can see development here.  What she once was is no more IMHO

[LiveFirstDieLater]

47 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I am going to do a complete rejection of the idea that Sansa rejected Tyrion because he was "ugly", a dwarf, didn't speak to him because she was "self-absorbed" and didnt even care about her mother and brother's deaths.

Some posters in here are claiming that all Sansa cares about is handsome white knights, and that's the main reason she didn't warm up to the man she was forced to marry at swordpoint.

While somehow Tyrion had absolutely no choice in the matter apparently (he did, but his other option was Lollys), it's totally okay and understandable that he desires a hot women and a hot wife (he chose Sansa over Lollys, of course!) but somehow it's not okay for Sansa to desire a handsome guy (what even is female desire, guys?) .

 

Let's see Sansa's wedding day:

Yeah. She had tremendous choice in the matter, as is evident from this passage. She could have been carried kicking and screaming to the altar, after all. /sarcasm

 

 

Now, why didn't Sansa choose the handsome Lancel, I wonder?

If someone can kindly point out where she rejected Tyrion on the basis of his looks in this passage, I'd be glad. From her own thoughts, it's evident she didn't want a Lannister.

 

If you are talking about me this is such a missrepresentation of what I said...

She humiliated Tyrion with the cloak switch moment...

She never had a choice in the wedding nor did I intend to suggest that...

But her reasons for disliking Tyrion were because he was a dwarf (shallow) and because of his name (Lannister)...

As she herself is perfect proof of, it's stupid to lump families into one pot, the rest of the Starks are honorable after all and she betrays them for Cersei.

Sansa doesn't want to be lumped with Arya since she "ruins everything", but it doesn't cross her mind that Tyrion would think anything other than what his family told him.

This false sexism thing needs to stop... Tyrion is heir to the richest family in Westeros, brother to the queen and son of the Hand (even acted as Hand himself)...

Sansa is seen as valuable because she is an heir to Winterfell... Not because she's hot. And Tyrion is a mysoginistic ass most of the time, but he was actually pretty decent towards her, not a high bar, but this isn't about him.

You can't argue both "forced at sword point" and "what even is female desire" in the same breath and sound reasonable... I'm not saying Sansa ever had a choice, or that she should have loved Tyrion...

This is all just another example of Sansa not having redeeming features... I hate the hypotheticals, but to say Sansa never had a chance to act differently is silly.

The not wanting a Lannister thing is bad in itself, it's just like Robert hating Dragonspawn, Brakens and Blackwoods, it's being biased based on family name... Blaming the son for the sins of the father (or in this case father, brother, sister, and nephew...)

I'm not saying I don't understand it, but it isn't a good thing.

Compared to almost any other PoV by almost any standard and Sansa comes up shot...

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

28 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Continued...

It's quite funny - the fact that she doesn't trust Tyrion is actually her learning from her mistakes. She trusted Cersei and Joffrey once, got burned. Now she is cautious with Tyrion, who's the brother of Cersei and was former Hand of the King. How exactly should she know that this guy is trustworthy? Being nice doesn't mean he is not interested in the welfare of his family.

 

Still, she defends him to LF:

and in her own mind:

 

About the Hound, yeah....I'm not going into that, there are much better analyses out there. Suffice to say that if I dreamed of a man kissing me when he actually didnt, it would only be if I'm attracted to him. And he is no "handsome white knight."

 

What??? The Hound was exactly the white knight... He rides up and saves her while literally being dressed in white!

[Little Scribe of Naath]

4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

You can't argue both "forced at sword point" and "what even is female desire" in the same breath and sound reasonable... I'm not saying Sansa ever had a choice, or that she should have loved Tyrion..

Yes I can. I've seen you here say that it was "shallow" for Sansa to want a handsome guy. Why? Don't all of us dream of having a good-looking partner? If it's not wrong for Tyrion to want pretty ladies to like him, why should it be for Sansa?

6 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But her reasons for disliking Tyrion were because he was a dwarf (shallow) and because of his name (Lannister)...

Quote

“If you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife. Somewhere in the realm there is doubtless some little lordling who’d gladly part with a daughter to win the friendship of Casterly Rock. Lady Tanda has offered Lollys…”

Tyrion gave a shudder of dismay. “I’d sooner cut it off and feed it to the goats.”

So Tyrion "giving a shudder of dismay" on the prospect of marrying Lollys is fine, but Sansa thinking Tyrion is ugly is not.

[shizett]

41 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

An inherent sense of right & wrong is developing and not as willing to be persuaded as before. She still rationalizes those choices, but it's becoming harder to do imo.

hmm. Interesting thoughts. I'll keep an eye for it from now on.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 minute ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Yes I can. I've seen you here say that it was "shallow" for Sansa to want a handsome guy. Why? Don't all of us dream of having a good-looking partner? If it's not wrong for Tyrion to want pretty ladies to like him, why should it be for Sansa?

So Tyrion "giving a shudder of dismay" on the prospect of marrying Lollys is fine, but Sansa thinking Tyrion is ugly is not.

How many times do we have to over the hating on Tyrion isn't a good defense of Sansa... But, there is the little detail that Lollys was mentally broken... 

You can dream of any partner you want but that's not an excuse for mistreating people you actually meet

and this applies equally to men and women... Not sure why you keep going for the sexist angle...

[Little Scribe of Naath]

 

12 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

This is all just another example of Sansa not having redeeming features... I hate the hypotheticals, but to say Sansa never had a chance to act differently is silly.

That is simply your opinion that "she doesn't have redeeming features."  There are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticise Sansa but also enough features which are redeeming in her. I gave the example of her helping Lancel during the BW which you don't seem to want to accept.

"A bad act does not cancel out the good, nor the good act cancel out the bad."

[Little Scribe of Naath]

4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

You can dream of any partner you want but that's not an excuse for mistreating people you actually meet

When did she mistreat him? When she didn't kneel for him during her forced wedding? 

Didn't I not give examples straight from the text that she actually thinks of him kindly, even after leaving KL?

If you want to hate on criticise Sansa, you need much better arguments, sorry. Which others have been doing in this thread pretty well. Her not warming up to Tyrion is just not a legit argument against her.

[Morgana Lannister]

23 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Well there are the odd "couple" of things going on with the original 8 pov's which is great for conspiracy theories: (by age)

Cat

Ned

Tyrion

Jon

Dany

Sansa

Arya

Bran

All the men are second sons

cat/Ned are a couple and dead (ish)

Then I would argue come three Targs followed by three Starks (and thus all related)

and three with wolves and three without (though of course there are three dragons too... Just not claimed yet, so enter speculation)

of course Tyrion and Sansa have been married... Both "betray" their fathers and "get them killed"

bran and dany both seem to be impotent/infertile now, but... (There could easily be outs for both)

I wouldn't be the first to offer the prospect of more couples...(Jon/Dany, Jon/Arya, or Jon/Dany&Arya)

Anyway these things always stuck out to me... But I understand this presentation is 90% incoherent 

lol but thanks for that; in truth, no-one knows but George and even he might change his mind yet!  I have a feeling though that we don't have enough to consider Dany or Bran unable to bear children... that I thought was red herring from the beginning; might well be wrong, and okay out of topic.  To me Ned said that because he would expect a paralysed male unmarriable but I can see no medical reason why a broken spine that paralyses you in the real world has to mean impotence, if the lady did the work say...  with Dany is a threat with a prophecy feeling... unless her womb was removed or ovaries or something at the time of that fatefull stillborn situation, I 'm going to say probably scaremongering too although Dany has had sexual partners since and not with child yet so maybe the curse worked on Dany and hey, I think Bran's arc does not require a kid, so we might never know...  I am not a doctor but I cannot see a clear medical reason with either unless further explained in the books.  My two cents.

[shizett]

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

If someone can kindly point out where she rejected Tyrion on the basis of his looks in this passage, I'd be glad. From her own thoughts, it's evident she didn't want a Lannister.

This is the part:

Quote

No one had thought to bring a stool, however, and Tyrion stood a foot and a half shorter than his bride. As he moved behind her, Sansa felt a sharp tug on her skirt. He wants me to kneel, she realized, blushing. She was mortified. It was not supposed to be this way. She had dreamed of her wedding a thousand times, and always she had pictured how her betrothed would stand behind her tall and strong, sweep the cloak of his protection over her shoulders, and tenderly kiss her cheek as he leaned forward to fasten the clasp.

She felt another tug at her skirt, more insistent. I won't. Why should I spare his feelings, when no one cares about mine? (aSOS, Sansa III)

It is about Tyrion not being tall or strong.

I should add that Sansa's wedding night where she refuses to sleep with Tyrion is one of my favorite Sansa moments. Mostly because it is honest and personal. She asks and she gets (by virtue of being super lucky). But her wedding moment where she humiliates Tyrion after they talk and all really bothers me. That was a petty moment, and quite unkind to Tyrion. He would not have done that to Sansa.

And... Tyrion is NOT a friend and her family have been quite shitty to him personally (nor have Sana ever been kind) and yet he has always maintained decency towards Sansa, that is not lowering the bar at all.

[Morgana Lannister]

3 minutes ago, shizett said:

This is the part:

It is about Tyrion not being tall or strong.

I should add that Sansa's wedding night where she refuses to sleep with Tyrion is one of my favorite Sansa moments. Mostly because it is honest and personal. She asks and she gets (by virtue of being super lucky). But her wedding moment where she humiliates Tyrion after they talk and all really bothers me. That was a petty moment, and quite unkind to Tyrion. He would not have done that to Sansa.

And... Tyrion is NOT a friend and her family have been quite shitty to him personally (nor have Sana ever been kind) and yet he has always maintained decency towards Sansa, that is not lowering the bar at all.

I root for Tyrion a lot and it hurt me too but I could see where she was coming from though -- the shock - the lack of preparation to adjust - she took it out on him I guess but I can hear them both here...

Granted, the looks were there too as was the family name - people argue one or the other; I think it was the combination to be honest and lack of preparation for what would follow (not even talking about the bedding but the marriage in itself).

I wish they reunite with all my heart, which makes me unpopular but hey my policy is ship and let ship

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 minute ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

When did she mistreat him? When she didn't kneel for him during her forced wedding? 

Didn't I not give examples straight from the text that she actually thinks of him kindly, even after leaving KL?

If you want to hate on criticise Sansa, you need much better arguments, sorry. Which others have been doing in this thread pretty well. Her not warming up to Tyrion is just not a legit argument against her.

She felt another tug at her skirt, more insistent. I won't. Why should I spare his feelings, when no one cares about mine?

this is the definition of petty and self centered... It can be rationalized all you want but it's still there...

8 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

 

That is simply your opinion that "she doesn't have redeeming features."  There are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticise Sansa but also enough features which are redeeming in her. I gave the example of her helping Lancel during the BW which you don't seem to want to accept.

"A bad act does not cancel out the good, nor the good act cancel out the bad."

Yes absolutely, it's all opinions...

And it's all shades of great and all that...

But if the best example of a good act was being nice to Lancel once... It blows my mind that people still think she's going to end up redeeming herself...

Much like her mother, I don't like the way she acted and the choices she made, but damn if she didn't have a lot on her plate... Still, do you really think it's a tail that is going to end up in a good light for her? No matter how much of a suffering mother she was, killing an innocent jester is morally wrong by any reasonable standard... And I sure don't think this Lady Stoneheart business is going to end happily.

I can't help thinking that Sansa is another "road to hell paved with good intentions"...

at the end of the day it's hard for me to understand why anyone would like her (I know she was nice to Lancel once) but that's ok, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, my goal isn't just to piss people off

[Little Scribe of Naath]

5 minutes ago, shizett said:

This is the part:

It is about Tyrion not being tall or strong.

I should add that Sansa's wedding night where she refuses to sleep with Tyrion is one of my favorite Sansa moments. Mostly because it is honest and personal. She asks and she gets (by virtue of being super lucky). But her wedding moment where she humiliates Tyrion after they talk and all really bothers me. That was a petty moment, and quite unkind to Tyrion. He would not have done that to Sansa.

And... Tyrion is NOT a friend and her family have been quite shitty to him personally (nor have Sana ever been kind) and yet he has always maintained decency towards Sansa, that is not lowering the bar at all.

Why it's quite funny you leave out the part after that:

Quote

When Sansa turned, the little man was gazing up at her, his mouth tight, his face as red as her cloak. Suddenly she was ashamed of her stubbornness. She smoothed her skirts and knelt in front of him, so their heads were on the same level. "With this kiss I pledge my love, and take you for my lord and husband."

I don't fault Sansa for not kneeling, at all. Her frustration at the whole wedding is completely understandable and it's the one moment in the whole day she feels like saying - Eff it, nobody cares about me, I'm not going to care about them. She directs it to the wrong person. But she feels ashamed of herself after that. It's not like she gloats and continues humiliating or mistreating Tyrion in some way.