Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating

[Morgana Lannister]

On 9/22/2016 at 1:05 PM, Protagoras said:

Mirri made a deal with Daenerys and she broke said deal. Daenerys should get revenge for the lies and the false promises Mirri gave to her personally, regardless of what the Dotraki did to her. Therefore she should suffer consequences and considering the amout of deaths, being burned alive is not an unfair punishment.

Mirri's speech to Dany towards the end of the book proves otherwise. She hated them from the start. Her intentions was never to help (not that I blame her, but she did lie to Daenetys about it). She could have tried to deny it - she didn´t. Mirri absolutely does not pay the part of the physician explaining patiently to the grieving mother and wife why her child is dead and her husband a shell of a man.  She does not offer any sympathy or condolences - far from it, she gloats in the death of her son, of her husband's state and taunts her by claiming she will never have another child.

But this thread is about Sansa, not Daenerys. And I don´t think this is sugar-coating in the same way OP did for Sansa. I am aware burning is a brutal way to die. I am aware torturing the winesellers daughter is something you will have to live with for the rest of your life. I am not blaming the Shavepate for the decision Daenerys took. 

Okay, I was intending to read the whole thread before I posted but a bit tired in real life after a very hectic week.  Not sure how to word this without sounding unkind or antagonistic - will go more in-depth into the various issues later or tomorrow though.  Some or your comments are good but one think I notice is that you keep going on about "white-washing" and "lying" my humble opinion here is that, okay, we often side up with characters or not due to who we relate to in our "real lives".  Still, I know we are talking about a fantasy set in medieval times in the main, however most legal systems recognise "attenuating" circumstances and "aggravating" ones (work in the field in real life). To my view, here, although wrong, and so were many other people in that set of events, including Ned, Sansa has attenuating circumstances.  Throughout this thread so far you come up (to me) a little like Stanis (a character I find fascinating too) but very "unbent" indeed.  Okay, I am going to class myself as one of the Sansa fan's but more later when I have had some rest and a chance to read it all lol but although all negative actions should perhaps be punishable, compassion dictates that we can forgive some, understand them first then perhaps forgive them...  With the exception of Joffrey and Ramsay (possibly Euron given released chapter in TWOW) no one who has made bad choices was totally evil - Jaime was under huge pressure, one second decision (which I don't agree with in any way) etc... Tyrion did some premeditated stuff like that singer but hey if the one you love most in the world is threatened you do crazy stuff... all of these characters IMHO have had "attenuating" circumstances.  My point here is I don't think anyone is trying to pretend it did not happened but that they can understand that evil didn't fuel it or complete stupidity for the most part either...

Then there is the ripple effect.  Say I am crossing the road, the fact that the guy driving the car has to do an emergency stop not to kill me, say, could mean something like hey, guy got to the garage too late for having fortuitous meeting with ex wife he hates so much he sworn to kill because she had been so evil and greedy (say)  so he doesn't get the opportunity... and she was carrying in her belly next pres of US, so for good or evil that guy's policies get implemented 40 years on... for argument sake lol (far fetched as hell but basically...)  George plays with this a lot IMHO, not one single action tends to lead to the final outcome, more like a confluence of coincidences and stuff -  take, right or wrong - if Robb had been more amiable to Tyrion he might not have reached the tavern same time as Cat - not saying right or wrong - talking about timing - i.e. ripple effect...

Will comment more on proper subject later but I thought I mentioned that the "white-washers" are just perhaps people, for whatever personal reason, more prepared to forgive...

 

 

[Morgana Lannister]

Cat in that instance, if she hadn't been fed the info she was, say had not met Tyrion there - war of 5 kings might have happened later but not started at that point...My personal view is that George is trying to say that timing is paramount and that many, many characters can take very small decisions that lead to a big ending... or beginning... but hey his prerogative lol

Sorry to perhaps get off topic a bit - will comment more on Sansa when I get the chance to read it all :) 

 

[sweetsunray]

On 27-9-2016 at 10:15 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

If Little Finger didn't have to spell it out for her I might agree... But it's not like she makes some great leap of logic, he's explaining it to her because she didn't get it on her own

Well, but she also has started to think further on her own without LF spelling it out for her - she thinks Lyn pretends to be LF's friend who pretends to be his enemy. She notices that Lyn is in it for himself and will betray LF if it serves him better.

So, there is growth. No stellar growth, but some. I disagree with statements that she's an empath or that she has shown she has what it takes to be a stellar player. I also disagree wit claims she hasn't developed and grown at all since aGoT.

I do expect her to take some initiatives of her own, without talking it through with LF first with regards Lothor Brune and Mya Stone. 

Spoiler

And the tourney and the winged knights to make SR brave was her idea, which has both an empathic motivation as well as a strategic one.

 

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Cat in that instance, if she hadn't been fed the info she was, say had not met Tyrion there - war of 5 kings might have happened later but not started at that point...My personal view is that George is trying to say that timing is paramount and that many, many characters can take very small decisions that lead to a big ending... or beginning... but hey his prerogative lol

Sorry to perhaps get off topic a bit - will comment more on Sansa when I get the chance to read it all

 

LF was always stirring trouble. He'd have fed lies to Ned Stark. By the time Tyrion showed up in KL and opened his unheeding mouth, Ned would probably have arrested him himself, especially if the King was off hunting.

[Morgana Lannister]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

LF was always stirring trouble. He'd have fed lies to Ned Stark. By the time Tyrion showed up in KL and opened his unheeding mouth, Ned would probably have arrested him himself, especially if the King was off hunting.

totally in agreement but getting off topic a bit here; just wanted to say that many small actions by many different players with conflicting interests is what brings about the end result and, in the spirit of this thread, I would say, hey yes Sansa made some big mistakes that topped with this and that and the other ended, say, in Ned's death but not one single incident, well apart from Joffrey's decision could be blamed 100% although 90% of my money on his conversation with Cersei though...

[Morgana Lannister]

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, but she also has started to think further on her own without LF spelling it out for her - she thinks Lyn pretends to be LF's friend who pretends to be his enemy. She notices that Lyn is in it for himself and will betray LF if it serves him better.

So, there is growth. No stellar growth, but some. I disagree with statements that she's an empath or that she has shown she has what it takes to be a stellar player. I also disagree wit claims she hasn't developed and grown at all since aGoT.

I do expect her to take some initiatives of her own, without talking it through with LF first with regards Lothor Brune and Mya Stone. 

  Hide contents

And the tourney and the winged knights to make SR brave was her idea, which has both an empathic motivation as well as a strategic one.

 

Agree with most of this in terms that George is certainly showing her growth, figuring out the game blah... as for stellar player, we can be kind of sure she is end game together with the other 5 as per G; the other 5 being: Jon, Arya, Bran, Tyrion and Dany  - I have my kind of pet fanfic like theories but one I am strong on is that Sansa will see LF doing something soooo wrong she will ask for help or simply do something herself... I bet the victim character is not even one she particularly loves or admires but the mere thought of it would be enough.... my money for now on Sweet Robin.... and I want some irony in who comes to the rescue but hey admitted a bit of fanfic here, but I think her arc involves seeing  LF doing something thoroughly immoral and her intervening... just a theory though...

[Hodor the Articulate]

My problem with Sansa isn't so much her mistakes, or even her shallowness, but how frustratingly dense she is. And look, I get it: she's young and sheltered, and she's learning to shed her naivety. But in story filled with sharp young characters like Missandei and Maergery, it stands out when Sansa does things like continue to admire and trust Cersei after the incident with Lady. Maybe I'd be ok with her if she quickly learnt from her stupidity but no, she just goes and fantasises about something else. Even worse, she has these moments where she thinks she's more clever than those around her. It's one step forward, two steps back with her, and I just can't after 5 books of that.

At this point, I kinda hate the idea that Sansa's endgame is becoming a player. It feels contrived given how much of an idiot GRRM made her in the beginning, and how much longer it takes her to learn the same lessons that other characters have learnt in one or two chapters.

On 22/09/2016 at 7:54 AM, Emie said:

I honestly think that the whole "Sansa vs. Arya" thing is simply because in this day and age, misogyny is sadly still strong, and people believe that girls and women who are masculine are "cooler" or "better" than girls and women who are feminine or "girly-girl". Some people see Sansa as the ultimate stereotype on the "bitchy popular girls (and boys) from school" who were mean to students and they like to hate on her just because of that. Simply because she likes to do "girly" things. Even though there shouldn't be anything wrong with that.

Tbf, it's GRRM that set up the rivalry between Sansa and Arya. He also did write Sansa as a superficial mean girl, so I wouldn't put this entirely on the readers. A lot of the sexist attitudes within the fandom is encouraged by the sexism in the writing.

[Mladen]

2 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Tbf, it's GRRM that set up the rivalry between Sansa and Arya. He also did write Sansa as a superficial mean girl, so I wouldn't put this entirely on the readers. A lot of the sexist attitudes within the fandom is encouraged by the sexism in the writing.

I would strongly disagree that the writing is any way sexist. The fact that some people hate Sansa can be attributed to many things: from personal preference and experience, over general and expected dislike for privileged and spoiled children to even, yes, sexism. But, it is incredible how Martin put Sansa and Ned in the same position. And while Ned is generally being criticized for handling Cersei in such a poor manner, people would rarely speak that he was deluding himself with Robert in the same capacity Sansa was deluding herself with Joffrey. Is that sexism? Or just the fact that we are ready to cut Ned some slack? Hard to say. I tend not to over-analyze why people like this or that character but there are many ways to describe writing of Sansa. Sexist, certainly, is not one of them.

[Marylou]

Nobody is whitewashing here. People just have decent arguments to explain Sansas character and story arc. 

Someone said it very clear: It is a big difference not to like a character in these books for personal reasons and therefore wrap their dislike  around Sansa without being objective.  

I disliked her on my first read too, I was in for the action. Only when I was sated on gore, intrigues and battles I was able to acknowledge Sansas subtle development.  GRRM is very good in general to describe psycholgical aspects in his characters (See Tyrion bitter descent into nihilism in ADWD). Sansas denial to see the Lannisters for who they are (agot, and why the way she was bred made her act like she did), her state of shock that left her in total survival mode (considering her state of mind before this is no wonder, and she is 11-12!) and the omnipresent threat via Joff in acoc,  shit is still raining down in asos, but nevertheless she gathered her courage to run away with Dontos, is a great read. And BAM, the next deception waits just around the corner, wearing the face of  mad Lysa. She has time to collect herself no sooner than AFFC, and after such turmoil, I totally understand that she needs a break. LF is actually the first one to teach her about the human heart and mind, and she is a good pupil. 

She is one of the most human of all the characters, and I have the impression, just because she is no warrior, badass or freak, people hate her because she is mirroring our own flaws so well.

But she has some very important feature: resilience. Fortunately resilience does not exclude empathy. I think she is an empathic person, but she also has a healthy attitude towards herself, and this is maintaining her well being if possible. 

People critisize her for "abandoning" Jeyne Poole. She didn't, but she has more pressing concerns, and she does miss her. Just because she is happy to have a break from Jeynes constant crying in an utter stressful situation (where she is abe to pull herself together, and this is a good thing!) does not make a a villain, it makes her human. 

Sansa is a wonderful example of GRRM's ability to describe psychologial effects of female education in this enviroment, the effects of psychological terror, dealing with your whole world turned upside down but not collapsing. 

I still believe some of her actions would be viewed differently if she was male (see Jeyne: Sansa is called heartless, but a boy would be called focused). 

In short: Sansa is tough, but in her own way. It doesn't make a an amoral or bad person. Like it or leave it.

[Springwatch]

On 9/28/2016 at 3:42 AM, Maxxine said:

I don't despise Sansa as much as I used to but I still dislike and I'll be honest it's mostly bc of the first book. Im sorry but I can get over it. And the whole "she was just a kid" excuse doesn't work for me bc almost the majority of the POV characters are kids and aren't as bad as Sansa was in the first book. Robb, Jon, & Dany are only a few years older and Arya & Bran are younger. Yeah they all have their bratty  childish moments but they're usually just moments. Sansa was a spoiled brat for a whole book. And most of the time these other characters recognize their mistakes & learn from them. I'm not convinced Sansa ever even realized the part she played in getting her father killed (and yes she played a part. Obviously wasn't intentional & wasnt the only reason but she still played a part). 

Im also just not a fan of the damsel in distress storyline. Sansa is just constantly waiting on a man to save her & it annoys me. I acknowledge everyone can't be Arya, Ygritte, or Asha but she never truly tries or thinks to try to help herself. It's just a well I'm stuck here until some great knight rescues me. 

True she grows as a character but I'm just not a fan

That is the bizarre thing about Sansa - she develops slowly. Not too slowly for a real life child, but slow compared to all the other young characters, who develop their strengths really quickly. I'm thinking of Dany dictating strategy to her generals after a few months in power, Bran's progress as a greenseer; Loras, Barristan and Jaime as knights; Arya as assassin. Lots of examples.

The damsel in distress thing doesn't bother me. Being rescued (or staying captive) is the norm for prisoners in the books.

Let's see: Tyrion is rescued from KL by Jaime, and effectively rescued from the Eyrie by Bronn. Jaime is rescued from Riverrun by Brienne and Cat. Arya is rescued from KL city by Yoren. Arianne is released by her father. Theon is rescued by the spearwives. Maybe others.

Then there are escape attempts that failed: Arianne again, Tyrion (I think) bribing the Eyrie gaoler, Theon and Kyra and the keys. Maybe others.

So I don't blame Sansa for not escaping. Out of all the prisoners, Arianne and Tyrion make most effort to escape - and they use all their cunning and wealth to that end. It would be stupid writing to put the same words in the mouth of an eleven year old.

(In the later books, Tyrion is jumping from one kind of captivity to another - his attitude is really live free or die - an amazing character. And in a way, Arya does it best of all, by never getting properly locked down in the first place.)

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

3 hours ago, Marylou said:

She is one of the most human of all the characters, and I have the impression, just because she is no warrior, badass or freak, people hate her because she is mirroring our own flaws so well.

This.  Sansa she's thoroughly average human.  I actually have never met a pre-teen that wasn't sometimes selfish or bratty or painfully naive.  I can completely identify with some of her mistakes.  Sticking her head in the sand has nothing to do with being callous or stupid.  Highly intelligent adults can sometimes use denial as a coping mechanism when confronted with unpleasant truths.  Highly intelligent adults have fallen too fast in "love" with the wrong person and got burned.  Even generally kind and decent people have been in situations that we're ashamed of how we acted.  Real average humans evolve slowly in small steps.  Changes in our thinking usually takes more than one experience.  She deserves criticism at times, but not hate.  Not saying everyone anyone who hates Sansa is doing so for the "wrong" reasons.  I don't love every character either, and it's not really to do with their morality, it's just what speaks to me or doesn't.  It's just very unproductive to have discussions about Sansa that keep going back to "yeah, but she was mean to Arya" or she "betrayed her family."  If people can't get passed the events of GoT, I don't know what to say.  That's clearly not George's intent to have readers stuck on that.  Don't you think the author might be trying to exploit reader biases here and turn a mirror back on ourselves?  If so, what's looking back says more about some people than the character.  We're talking about an 11 to 13 year old who witnessed her father's decapitation and who is a domestic violence victim and hostage who's now currently in the hands of someone that wants to exploit her sexually.  I cannot even put into words this horrific trauma, yet she still manages to have internal, quiet resilience and resistance. 

[Protagoras]

16 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Okay, I was intending to read the whole thread before I posted but a bit tired in real life after a very hectic week.  Not sure how to word this without sounding unkind or antagonistic - will go more in-depth into the various issues later or tomorrow though.  Some or your comments are good but one think I notice is that you keep going on about "white-washing" and "lying" my humble opinion here is that, okay, we often side up with characters or not due to who we relate to in our "real lives".  Still, I know we are talking about a fantasy set in medieval times in the main, however most legal systems recognise "attenuating" circumstances and "aggravating" ones (work in the field in real life). To my view, here, although wrong, and so were many other people in that set of events, including Ned, Sansa has attenuating circumstances.  Throughout this thread so far you come up (to me) a little like Stanis (a character I find fascinating too) but very "unbent" indeed.  Okay, I am going to class myself as one of the Sansa fan's but more later when I have had some rest and a chance to read it all lol but although all negative actions should perhaps be punishable, compassion dictates that we can forgive some, understand them first then perhaps forgive them...  With the exception of Joffrey and Ramsay (possibly Euron given released chapter in TWOW) no one who has made bad choices was totally evil - Jaime was under huge pressure, one second decision (which I don't agree with in any way) etc... Tyrion did some premeditated stuff like that singer but hey if the one you love most in the world is threatened you do crazy stuff... all of these characters IMHO have had "attenuating" circumstances.  My point here is I don't think anyone is trying to pretend it did not happened but that they can understand that evil didn't fuel it or complete stupidity for the most part either...

Then there is the ripple effect.  Say I am crossing the road, the fact that the guy driving the car has to do an emergency stop not to kill me, say, could mean something like hey, guy got to the garage too late for having fortuitous meeting with ex wife he hates so much he sworn to kill because she had been so evil and greedy (say)  so he doesn't get the opportunity... and she was carrying in her belly next pres of US, so for good or evil that guy's policies get implemented 40 years on... for argument sake lol (far fetched as hell but basically...)  George plays with this a lot IMHO, not one single action tends to lead to the final outcome, more like a confluence of coincidences and stuff -  take, right or wrong - if Robb had been more amiable to Tyrion he might not have reached the tavern same time as Cat - not saying right or wrong - talking about timing - i.e. ripple effect...

Will comment more on proper subject later but I thought I mentioned that the "white-washers" are just perhaps people, for whatever personal reason, more prepared to forgive...

 

 

I am not entirely sure I understand what you are trying to say here. But I will try to respond to what I think you are going for.

Yes, everyone has reasons - circumstances of different sort to why they act as they do. But because that apply to everyone, they are not really relevant when defining guilt. Ramsay and Joffrey have circumstances too, yet somehow they are not relevant? And because you don´t sympathize with them as much they should take the full blame? No! - the past, present, and the future for everyone is identifiable with a more or less unbreakable chain of circumstances, so why give a pass to only certain characters? Now, I am not against using the concept of grace and mitigating circumstances, but it has NOTHING to do with if a party (like Sansa) is guilty or not. They are rather used for defining what kind of punishment the guilty party should suffer. So if you by mistake drive someone over with your car you will get a less of a punishment as someone who did mean to drive someone over, BUT YOU BOTH HAVE COMMITTED THE SAME CRIME (driving a person over with a car). Why is this denied? Look at my post you quoted, I am not saying that Daenerys didn´t burn Mirri or that she didn´t torture the winesellers daughter. I am aware that she did. Daenerys is guilty to those crimes. Yet I have only a minor problem with those actions due to my personal morality of an eye for an eye. So I not only forgive her but support her choice. But that doesn´t mean she now "hasn´t killed anyone". Nor that she "isn´t guilty". She certainly is guilty to burning a person alive and she still made that choice. 

So this is not a about if we can forgive a character, this is about establishing guilt. And Sansa is definitely a character people in this forum are unwilling to do so with. Instead of saying "Yes, she did wrong at the trident, she was illoyal and she treated her sister like shit - yet I am able to forgive her because of..." instead they say "You know what, Sansa did never do wrong so therefore she is not guilty to anything. Its Ned, Cerseis, Roberts, Aryas, Joffreys, Septa Mordane, the society etc, etc, etc fault, but not Sansa". This is not a position I am willing to accept. It is simply not a fair one to absolve the bad stuff characters you like do and be judgmental against those that you don´t like, because the only thing that matters here is your feeling about the person and not the crime itself (which is why those people try to pretend it is not the same thing - God, I HATE "feeling persons")

And this is where I feel that in that case, well NOONE should be guilty of anything. If we are unable to call out to Tyrion and Jaime for the murder they committed, what fucking right do we have to criticize any other murder. If we hold a double standard and are even unwilling to define the same crime similarly because 2 different people with different personalities commits them, then I don´t think we are talking about justice anymore, that we are hypocritical and unfair - and I am unwilling to accept that. So, yes - I think people tries to pretend it didn´t happen and that it should have any effect on how we judge the character, which is quite frankly bullshit. And, yes - I am certainly seeing similarities with me and Stannis in this. I might not agree with the man and his claim, but at least we won´t have to spend days discussing main principles of a justice system.

[Marylou]

20 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

This.  Sansa she's thoroughly average human.  I actually have never met a pre-teen that wasn't sometimes selfish or bratty or painfully naive.  I can completely identify with some of her mistakes.  Sticking her head in the sand has nothing to do with being callous or stupid.  Highly intelligent adults can sometimes use denial as a coping mechanism when confronted with unpleasant truths.  Highly intelligent adults have fallen too fast in "love" with the wrong person and got burned.  Even generally kind and decent people have been in situations that we're ashamed of how we acted.  Real average humans evolve slowly in small steps.  Changes in our thinking usually takes more than one experience.  She deserves criticism at times, but not hate.  Not saying everyone anyone who hates Sansa is doing so for the "wrong" reasons.  I don't love every character either, and it's not really to do with their morality, it's just what speaks to me or doesn't.  It's just very unproductive to have discussions about Sansa that keep going back to "yeah, but she was mean to Arya" or she "betrayed her family."  If people can't get passed the events of GoT, I don't know what to say.  That's clearly not George's intent to have readers stuck on that.  Don't you think the author might be trying to exploit reader biases here and turn a mirror back on ourselves?  If so, what's looking back says more about some people than the character.  We're talking about an 11 to 13 year old who witnessed her father's decapitation and who is a domestic violence victim and hostage who's now currently in the hands of someone that wants to exploit her sexually.  I cannot even put into words this horrific trauma, yet she still manages to have internal, quiet resilience and resistance. 

100% with you. It depends on what we, the readers, experienced through life and how we dealt with it, and because evaluation is something we do all the time, concious or not, we are biased, no matter how hard we try to be "meta". 

I had some really rough times in my life were my world was upside down, and for my personal progress I had to face some nasty stuff. That was hard, but necessary. And even for an adult it is brutal to realize that the foundation of your believes has to be renewed. But during that time, you are in free fall or you have to cling to some kind of surrogate. 

This is what's happening to Sansa. She has to reshape most of the world she used to know.

 

I apply this kind of thinking on every character in the books. That is why I don't hate Theon (instead, he was my first love in the book), Jaime or Tyrion.  Cersei on the other had, has, like Tyrion pointed out, no redeeming qualities except the fact she loves her children. But still, I do feel for her. She was a cruel bitch even as a child, but capable, yet overseen and used as a tool in politics  and a result of her education!  She is a feminist gone bad and bitter, but the feminist part I still like about her  

[Marylou]

@Protagoras you are talking about principle, regardless the characters education, experiences in life, age and descent. 

Even the law makes differences between attenuating circumstances and the severity of guilt. This is what we are appying here IMO.

[Protagoras]

11 minutes ago, Marylou said:

@Protagoras you are talking about principle, regardless the characters education, experiences in life, age and descent. 

Even the law makes differences between attenuating circumstances and the severity of guilt. This is what we are appying here IMO.

The law does that, but this is not what I think you are all going for here but rather an acquittal. If the law gives you mercy due to  experiences in life, age and descent it doesn´t make you less guilty. Just that the state won´t punish you for it. 

And I am certainly about principles. In fact, I think principles weights heavier than basic human rights which in the past have made me defend acts I won´t be allowed to defend here according to forum rules. 

[Marylou]

@Protagoras  I respect your way of thinking.  I do have principles too I fight fiercely for, but in general, I do try to see the whole picture. If I like it..... is something else. From your point of view, I get why you judge Sansas behaviour. Yes, she acted kinda lame and shallow in AGOT. But it was her role, and without her doing so, and she had to for the plot to progress

Would I teach her a lesson she would never forget for snitching on Ned? Hell yeah, I would. No aquittal.  That was stupid², but STILL, she was a kid. A stupid one, yes. Not stupid any more.  

What about Theon, Jaime, Tyrion, Arya? From your viewpoint, they must be monsters. 

[Protagoras]

1 minute ago, Marylou said:

@Protagoras  I respect your way of thinking.  I do have principles too I fight fiercely for, but in general, I do try to see the whole picture. If I like it..... is something else. From your point of view, I get why you judge Sansas behaviour. Yes, she acted kinda lame and shallow in AGOT. But it was her role, and without her doing so, and she had to for the plot to progress

Would I teach her a lesson she would never forget for snitching on Ned? Hell yeah, I would. No aquittal.  That was stupid², but STILL, she was a kid. A stupid one, yes. Not stupid any more.  

What about Theon, Jaime, Tyrion? From your viewpoint, they must be monsters.

Jaime I utterly hate and while I do like Theon and Tyrion there is no doubt that they have very severe flaws. They are all guilty for different things, yet I am able to forgive Theon and Tyrion due to that I agree with their reasons more often than not. Yet again - they are all very guilty. I like characters that are flawed like this. Characters that I can understand their motives and reasons yet still not always be able to buy itself. 

The reason I and Jaime cross is because his reasoning is a reasoning I despise (but I have written about that elsewhere). 

[Protagoras]

I remember a poster years ago that made the comparison with Fredo Corleone and Sansa.

And I really like it - Fredo migth not have intended to do what he did. But he certainly betrayed Michael. Did he deserve a bullet to the brain? Well, he is certainly not innocent - thats for sure. There will be people who deserves such a bullet more, but there also certainly will be many more people that deserve a bullet less than he did. In the end - Fredo ratted them out! So, fuck Fredo. 

[Winter's Cold]

Sansa betrayed her family twice in GOT. The first betrayal was followed by the death of Lady, Sansa's direwolf. The second betrayal was followed by the massacre of the Stark household. I'd say that's the reason most of her detractors dislike her. It has nothing to do with her femininity or normalcy. Now she's in a situation where it appears she is choosing a non family member (Littlefinger) over her cousin (Sweetrobin). Betrayal of her family members appears to be a theme with Sansa and this is my primary issue with her. I can't root for her the same way I root for other Starks because she has no concept of familial loyalty.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

18 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Sansa betrayed her family twice in GOT. The first betrayal was followed by the death of Lady, Sansa's direwolf. The second betrayal was followed by the massacre of the Stark household. I'd say that's the reason most of her detractors dislike her. It has nothing to do with her femininity or normalcy. Now she's in a situation where it appears she is choosing a non family member (Littlefinger) over her cousin (Sweetrobin). Betrayal of her family members appears to be a theme with Sansa and this is my primary issue with her. I can't root for her the same way I root for other Starks because she has no concept of familial loyalty.

This...

also let's remember she's only "normal" because she refused to stand up for her family and that caused Lady to be killed... She received the same (direwolf) gift as her siblings... She just threw it away.

Circumstances may not have been kind to Sansa, but compared to what has happened to her siblings and other characters she's had it about as easy as it gets...