Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating

[zandru]

I'd like to say a few words about the charges of "sexism" and even "misogyny" that some of y'all have thrown at people who don't love Sansa.

You seem to be saying that bravery is solely a masculine trait. That taking action, instead of sitting passively, is masculine and something that ladies just don't do. That curiosity about the world around them, making friends with others and talking with them, regardless of social class, is something only a Man would do. That resourcefulness and taking responsibility for their own rescue is non-feminine. That only the men can be heroes.

I submit that it's this attitude that is sexist and misogynistic. I spent the 1970s cheering on the women who were trying to open the doors for women and what women were allowed to do and be. The traits y'all celebrate so much in Sansa were the ones they deplored as being too limiting, too self-defeating.

[teej6]

9 hours ago, Risto said:

I would strongly disagree that the writing is any way sexist. The fact that some people hate Sansa can be attributed to many things: from personal preference and experience, over general and expected dislike for privileged and spoiled children to even, yes, sexism. But, it is incredible how Martin put Sansa and Ned in the same position. And while Ned is generally being criticized for handling Cersei in such a poor manner, people would rarely speak that he was deluding himself with Robert in the same capacity Sansa was deluding herself with Joffrey. Is that sexism? Or just the fact that we are ready to cut Ned some slack? Hard to say. I tend not to over-analyze why people like this or that character but there are many ways to describe writing of Sansa. Sexist, certainly, is not one of them.

I have to disagree with your reading of Ned's views of Robert in AGOT. We are shown through Ned's thoughts and words (in his conversations with Cat) that he is full of doubt about Robert's present character and if he even knows the Robert we see in AGOT. He's not deluding himself in any way about Robert. Ned hopes that Robert still has some traits of his old self and morality but never do we see Ned justifying any of Robert's immoral or questionable actions. In fact, we see just the opposite. We see Ned willing to sacrifice his friendship with Robert and his very life itself if siding with Robert means going against his conscience. There is no similarity between how Ned sees Robert and Sansa's total denial of what a shit Joffrey was. 

[Morgana Lannister]

4 hours ago, Protagoras said:

I am not entirely sure I understand what you are trying to say here. But I will try to respond to what I think you are going for.

Yes, everyone has reasons - circumstances of different sort to why they act as they do. But because that apply to everyone, they are not really relevant when defining guilt. Ramsay and Joffrey have circumstances too, yet somehow they are not relevant? And because you don´t sympathize with them as much they should take the full blame? No! - the past, present, and the future for everyone is identifiable with a more or less unbreakable chain of circumstances, so why give a pass to only certain characters? Now, I am not against using the concept of grace and mitigating circumstances, but it has NOTHING to do with if a party (like Sansa) is guilty or not. They are rather used for defining what kind of punishment the guilty party should suffer. So if you by mistake drive someone over with your car you will get a less of a punishment as someone who did mean to drive someone over, BUT YOU BOTH HAVE COMMITTED THE SAME CRIME (driving a person over with a car). Why is this denied? Look at my post you quoted, I am not saying that Daenerys didn´t burn Mirri or that she didn´t torture the winesellers daughter. I am aware that she did. Daenerys is guilty to those crimes. Yet I have only a minor problem with those actions due to my personal morality of an eye for an eye. So I not only forgive her but support her choice. But that doesn´t mean she now "hasn´t killed anyone". Nor that she "isn´t guilty". She certainly is guilty to burning a person alive and she still made that choice. 

So this is not a about if we can forgive a character, this is about establishing guilt. And Sansa is definitely a character people in this forum are unwilling to do so with. Instead of saying "Yes, she did wrong at the trident, she was illoyal and she treated her sister like shit - yet I am able to forgive her because of..." instead they say "You know what, Sansa did never do wrong so therefore she is not guilty to anything. Its Ned, Cerseis, Roberts, Aryas, Joffreys, Septa Mordane, the society etc, etc, etc fault, but not Sansa". This is not a position I am willing to accept. It is simply not a fair one to absolve the bad stuff characters you like do and be judgmental against those that you don´t like, because the only thing that matters here is your feeling about the person and not the crime itself (which is why those people try to pretend it is not the same thing - God, I HATE "feeling persons")

And this is where I feel that in that case, well NOONE should be guilty of anything. If we are unable to call out to Tyrion and Jaime for the murder they committed, what fucking right do we have to criticize any other murder. If we hold a double standard and are even unwilling to define the same crime similarly because 2 different people with different personalities commits them, then I don´t think we are talking about justice anymore, that we are hypocritical and unfair - and I am unwilling to accept that. So, yes - I think people tries to pretend it didn´t happen and that it should have any effect on how we judge the character, which is quite frankly bullshit. And, yes - I am certainly seeing similarities with me and Stannis in this. I might not agree with the man and his claim, but at least we won´t have to spend days discussing main principles of a justice system.

Okay, I think the problem we seem to have here is one of our own personalities in that we clash on how we would like to see people punished by the readers in this case.  I don't deny for a moment that Sansa made mistakes that led to nasty consequences, same as for Ned with his bad judgement for example.  Yet, the way some readers including myself feel inclined to forgive them is because of what intentions were at the time.  Granted, Ned is a better example than Sansa because I don't believe it crossed his mind that Cersei would go and get Robert killed.  So even if he caused his dead in a way, I don't believe he is guilty of it.  Here comes the concept of foreseeability, although granted, perhaps it ought to have crossed his mind that this might happen, but still the guilty rests with Cersei and Lancel.  Now, Jaime is fully responsible for the murder of the Mad King.  Can I forgive him?  In my case yes because he genuinely thought the consequences of doing nothing or do his duty and protect the king could have been much worse.  Tyrion, yes, my favourite character or not, did killed Shae and his father, so definitely he is guilty.  Do I want to see him punished for it?  I think George has given him enough punishment given the state of mind he had through most of the last book, but in a justice system yes it caught I guess he would have to be punished or else life does become a bit cheap.  Same goes for Theon, who is perhaps the best example in the books of someone conflicted and very pushed in many conflicting directions who does terrible things but doesn't appear to be per se a super bad person inside.  But is every murder the same and should all be punished in the same way?  my idea is not.  I do admit I have a tendency towards leniency in real life too and yes I could describe myself as someone very "feeling" which to me is not a bad thing.  Is it better to be this way or more of a disciplinarian is very hard to say.  We could argue until the cows come home and we would probably still agree to disagree.  With Sansa I have never denied that she made mistakes whether I would go as far as calling them crimes... I don't think so.  Is it morally wrong to lie and say she didn't see to side up with her intended as opposed to her sister?  I would say yes because it was selfish to a point.  However, I am yet to meet anyone who has never done anything morally wrong ever or cause pain to others.  Now you mention, rightly so, that Ramsay's and Joffrey's actions like those of everyone are also rooted on experiences and circumstances.  Of course, eveyone's are.  When it comes to hating a character (the reader equivalent I guess to imparting punishment legally) I admit I do not hugely believe in the concept of retribution (rightly or wrongly) that of course doesn't mean that I would set every prison inmate free lol  what I do believe in is in the need for society to protect individuals from harm.  So, say a serial killer who is mentally ill, and not necessarily morally answerable for his/her crimes still needs to be locked up as does a religious fanatic who commits terrorism but believes is doing it for the greater good.  These people are very dangerous to society.  Sansa is not, not any more than potentially anyone who might one day hold power is.  Still I know the "double standards" bother you  hence I mentioned Stanis.  Was certainly not meant as an insult but he prefers expediency over as you said arguing for ever moral or legal points; took Davo's fingers, punishment fulfilled then rewarded him for something else.  There is some merit in that too.  Stanis only became a danger to society when he got himself involved with the Lord of Light.  Ramsay and Joffrey were a real continuing thread to others.  The same could be say mayhaps of Tywin, Walder Frey, Tyrion, Cersei etc but since they are more in control of their actions and use more logic (Tyrion only completely lost the plot when he was literally broken by loved ones) they are a bit more like the Cold War, they are easier to predict that people who appear to be arbitrarily dangerous because they enjoy inflicting pain and they are harder to persuade or contain as it were.  Now Cersei in the show of course has joined the later category because she has also lost the plot pretty much.  Will be interesting to see what is in store for her in the books though.

Do I have double standards?  maybe in that yes, like I guess every one I root for some characters more than for others and yes, I do believe that is someone did something terrible once but they are unlikely to do it again it is safe to set them free and leave them to their guilt and dark thoughts for a while.  Nothing that Sansa has done makes it unforgivable or even unforgettable for me.  Now, if she does kill LF somehow, yeah that would be a crime but if she does it to say save Sweet Robin or Harry Hardying or to prevent the Vale from starving over the winter, I would class that as a Jaime situation, not because I might like her better than LF but because sometimes people have to make difficult choices.  With the characters or real people living through these sort of circumstances though of course we all have wanted retribution on someone at some point in our lives but I personally believe we should try to work on being more rational and leaving this aside.  It is retribution that sets up this wonderful to write conflicts amongst mafia families or the medieval wars and certainly ASOIAF.  Tywin punishing Tyrion's imprisonment by Cat, Rob retaliating (not saying it was wrong) against his father's decapitation; trouble is that retribution perpetuates the violence.  If Sansa indeed and Tyrion had plotted to kill Joffrrey and succeeded one could argue Cersei had the right to retaliate which would have meant more retaliation from Stark supporters and on and on the wheel spins... I could be very wrong here and pretty out of topic as well but I believe the ending is going to involve some compromise and healing between various houses, certainly Stark and Lannister but Targaryen also because I believe George final message will be that this is the only way forward.  If we get stuck in, say, you wrong my brother you bitch or you killed my father and so on, on and on the eternal revenge will continue.

But finally, and a little bit more on topic, we are all human and we all have preference that endear us towards some characters more than others, is it double standards or mere preference?  If someone totally denies that Sansa ever made the wrong choice but castigates other characters very severely then maybe but I think everyone here has says that she did make mistakes but that they could understand where she was coming from.  To me, personally, that is not "white-washing" white washing to me would mean denying the action took place to protect a beloved character.  Just my two cents and hopefully not hard feelings  

[Maxxine]

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

That is the bizarre thing about Sansa - she develops slowly. Not too slowly for a real life child, but slow compared to all the other young characters, who develop their strengths really quickly. I'm thinking of Dany dictating strategy to her generals after a few months in power, Bran's progress as a greenseer; Loras, Barristan and Jaime as knights; Arya as assassin. Lots of examples.

The damsel in distress thing doesn't bother me. Being rescued (or staying captive) is the norm for prisoners in the books.

Let's see: Tyrion is rescued from KL by Jaime, and effectively rescued from the Eyrie by Bronn. Jaime is rescued from Riverrun by Brienne and Cat. Arya is rescued from KL city by Yoren. Arianne is released by her father. Theon is rescued by the spearwives. Maybe others.

Then there are escape attempts that failed: Arianne again, Tyrion (I think) bribing the Eyrie gaoler, Theon and Kyra and the keys. Maybe others.

So I don't blame Sansa for not escaping. Out of all the prisoners, Arianne and Tyrion make most effort to escape - and they use all their cunning and wealth to that end. It would be stupid writing to put the same words in the mouth of an eleven year old.

(In the later books, Tyrion is jumping from one kind of captivity to another - his attitude is really live free or die - an amazing character. And in a way, Arya does it best of all, by never getting properly locked down in the first place.)

It's not fact that she gets rescued that bothers me. Everyone has had to be saved at some point in these books. It would be unfair to hold that against her. What bothers me is her complete lack of any kind of self reliance. She never even has a thought of trying to save herself. With her it's always "who's going to save me" as opposed to "what can I do to save myself." She goes from Joffrey, the Hound, Loras, Willas, the Hound, Dontos, to LF. Just waiting for them to save her instead of taking a proactive action or even having a proactive thought about saving herself. 

 

Just going off ofsome of the examples you provided: yes Bronn saves Tyrion but Bronn is put in that position partially bc of Tyrion's own thinking & actions. Yoren saves Arya but before that Arya was trying to help herself (trying to find a ship, trying to get out through the different gates, etc.). Doran did finally let Arianne out but she tries writing the letter, rushing past the guards, etc before that. 

So im not annoyed just bc she was rescued. It's the I can't do anything to help myself attitude that bothers me.

[Morgana Lannister]

10 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

It's not fact that she gets rescued that bothers me. Everyone has had to be saved at some point in these books. It would be unfair to hold that against her. What bothers me is her complete lack of any kind of self reliance. She never even has a thought of trying to save herself. With her it's always "who's going to save me" as opposed to "what can I do to save myself." She goes from Joffrey, the Hound, Loras, Willas, the Hound, Dontos, to LF. Just waiting for them to save her instead of taking a proactive action or even having a proactive thought about saving herself. 

 

Just going off ofsome of the examples you provided: yes Bronn saves Tyrion but Bronn is put in that position partially bc of Tyrion's own thinking & actions. Yoren saves Arya but before that Arya was trying to help herself (trying to find a ship, trying to get out through the different gates, etc.). Doran did finally let Arianne out but she tries writing the letter, rushing past the guards, etc before that. 

So im not annoyed just bc she was rescued. It's the I can't do anything to help myself attitude that bothers me.

I hear what you are saying but Sansa had what personality and resources she had; to me using someone's help to your own advantage (or perceived advantage) also indicates a willingness which is not at all passive to get out of the situation.  Say for instance, I lose my job and find myself unable to pay the mortgage, so could lose my house (just a modern life example), the proactive think is to contact the bank and try to get another job; if that fails, say, a plan b could well include borrowing money free of interest from a close friend (i.e, become reliant on others).  There are circumstances in life where, IMHO, the bright thing is to rely on someone to "save" you if you haven't got the means to do it so yourself.  Tyrion is a classic example.  No way in hell to get himself out of that cell after the Joffrey trial, okay he might not have orchestrated it but Varys had the means, he didn't.  Arya is great because she tries and doesn't see the futility of it but if it hadn't been for Joren, kudos for trying to go solo but what would her realistic chances would have been.  I think the smart thing would have been to obtain help from whoever happened to be there... a troop of mummers or something just to theorise and blend in with them or something to get out of the place.  How would Sansa could possibly escape KL?  She could have used the Hound, I guess, but no way she could have gone very far had she done it alone.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

43 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I hear what you are saying but Sansa had what personality and resources she had; to me using someone's help to your own advantage (or perceived advantage) also indicates a willingness which is not at all passive to get out of the situation.  Say for instance, I lose my job and find myself unable to pay the mortgage, so could lose my house (just a modern life example), the proactive think is to contact the bank and try to get another job; if that fails, say, a plan b could well include borrowing money free of interest from a close friend (i.e, become reliant on others).  There are circumstances in life where, IMHO, the bright thing is to rely on someone to "save" you if you haven't got the means to do it so yourself.  Tyrion is a classic example.  No way in hell to get himself out of that cell after the Joffrey trial, okay he might not have orchestrated it but Varys had the means, he didn't.  Arya is great because she tries and doesn't see the futility of it but if it hadn't been for Joren, kudos for trying to go solo but what would her realistic chances would have been.  I think the smart thing would have been to obtain help from whoever happened to be there... a troop of mummers or something just to theorise and blend in with them or something to get out of the place.  How would Sansa could possibly escape KL?  She could have used the Hound, I guess, but no way she could have gone very far had she done it alone.

I don't think anyone has an issue with a character receiving help from others...

It's the fact that Sansa exclusively waits for others to help her, without ever even considering helping herself... This is not true for any of our other PoVs. Many of them have been captured and many required help, but everyone else also has times when they act.

To try and compare Sansa's betrayal of her family and subsequent disregard for a "friend" like Jeyne and plotting the downfall of family like Sweet Robin with Ned's mercy for Cersei and her kids is insane... You could say they are all "mistakes" but morally they are polar opposites. Sansa being selfish and Ned being the opposite

[Morgana Lannister]

13 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I don't think anyone has an issue with a character receiving help from others...

It's the fact that Sansa exclusively waits for others to help her, without ever even considering helping herself... This is not true for any of our other PoVs. Many of them have been captured and many required help, but everyone else also has times when they act.

To try and compare Sansa's betrayal of her family and subsequent disregard for a "friend" like Jeyne and plotting the downfall of family like Sweet Robin with Ned's mercy for Cersei and her kids is insane... You could say they are both "mistakes" but morally they are polar opposites. Sansa being selfish and Ned being the opposite

Okay, my apologies if I have forgotten some stuff here but I just see Sansa as impotent in the situation/s rather than unwilling to make a move.  However, I must have forgotten something here because annoying as she finds Robin I cannot remember her plotting his downfall; okay marrying Harry... but I don't think this means she will let LF murder Robin...  I think she is just for now going along with this to fool LF; yes, she does want him to like her but we all liked to be liked but she doesn't like him when she meets him and he is rude to her.  I think the books are going to take a turn here and that she will cause LF's downfall when LF either tries to kill one or the other (SR or Harry) even if she isn't too enamored with either of them.

With Jeyne, what could she possibly do to save her from her marriage to Ramsay?  Now if anyone has a plan, i.e. how would yourselves have gotten these people saved and/or save yourself with what she had to play with I would love to hear it.  I am sure there must have been ways but would be interesting to consider them.

IMHO she was foolish to leave with Dontos but then again, if she hadn't she might have gotten her head chopped off along with Tyrion's at that trial but she couldn't have possibly known that so won't give her credit for that.  That was a literary device of course because a lot of our main characters are now in training and if, say her and Tyrion had been rescued - unsure as to whether Jaime and Varys would have "wasted time" saving her too and went and serve Dany and be happy ever after in Essos, her arc would have once more become one of accessory to other main characters and little learning curve; even if Tyrion had won her over...

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Okay, my apologies if I have forgotten some stuff here but I just see Sansa as impotent in the situation/s rather than unwilling to make a move.  However, I must have forgotten something here because annoying as she finds Robin I cannot remember her plotting his downfall; okay marrying Harry... but I don't think this means she will let LF murder Robin...  I think she is just for now going along with this to fool LF; yes, she does want him to like her but we all liked to be liked but she doesn't like him when she meets him and he is rude to her.  I think the books are going to take a turn here and that she will cause LF's downfall when LF either tries to kill one or the other (SR or Harry) even if she isn't too enamored with either of them.

With Jeyne, what could she possibly do to save her from her marriage to Ramsay?  Now if anyone has a plan, i.e. how would yourselves have gotten these people saved and/or save yourself with what she had to play with I would love to hear it.  I am sure there must have been ways but would be interesting to consider them.

IMHO she was foolish to leave with Dontos but then again, if she hadn't she might have gotten her head chopped off along with Tyrion's at that trial but she couldn't have possibly known that so won't give her credit for that.  That was a literary device of course because a lot of our main characters are now in training and if, say her and Tyrion had been rescued - unsure as to whether Jaime and Varys would have "wasted time" saving her too and went and serve Dany and be happy ever after in Essos, her arc would have once more become one of accessory to other main characters and little learning curve; even if Tyrion had won her over...

 

Can you imagine how much more badass it might have been had she escaped with Tyrion... Ahh well, fantasy roads not taken...

But I will grant you that Sansa isn't IMO beyond redemption... Maybe she will turn on Little Finger and save Sweet Robin after all this time lulling me into a false sense of complacency... But I'll believe it when I see it, till then she's Cersei minus the sadistic streak (and incest) in my book: selfish, oblivious, and disloyal... She's even a Lannister at this point right?

[Marylou]

I don't see when Sansa had a chance to save herself. What was she supposed to do? She was all alone in the Lions den, literally. She simply has not the skills and the personality like Arya. She was under constant observation. There was simply nobody to turn to and if she had tried, and got refused and betrayed, her punishment would have been horrible. 

I find her time in KL after Neds death pretty dire. To be at the mercy of Joff is pretty shitty. She gets beatings on a regular basis and has to fear abuse 24/7. Arya might have given them a fight, but I don't want to imagine what they'd have done to her. But she was lucky that she was saved and had the chance to go incognito, and this is just because she is a child with boyish features. Sansa couldn't do that, even if she wanted to. A girl like her would have drawn to much attention. All she would have earned from trying to escape on her own was a gang rape and worse.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

3 minutes ago, Marylou said:

I don't see when Sansa had a chance to save herself. What was she supposed to do? She was all alone in the Lions den, literally. She simply has not the skills and the personality like Arya. She was under constant observation. There was simply nobody to turn to and if she had tried, and got refused and betrayed, her punishment would have been horrible. 

I find her time in KL after Neds death pretty dire. To be at the mercy of Joff is pretty shitty. She gets beatings on a regular basis and has to fear abuse 24/7. Arya might have given them a fight, but I don't want to imagine what they'd have done to her. But she was lucky that she was saved and had the chance to go ingocnito. Sansa couldn't do that, even f she wanted to. A girl like her would have drwan to much attention. All she would have earned from trying to escape of her own was a gang rape and worse.

I sorry, but I just have to point out they married her to Tyrion... A guy who deep down wants so badly to be the white knight... Maybe she should have been a little less aweful to him (I know she had reasons) and talked to him once in a while and he would have helped her... He stood up for her anyway before they were married... 

This idea that she had no options is nonsens, I mean it doesn't do any good for me to make up stuff that could have happened, but to suggest she was completely helpless is silly...

[Marylou]

Just now, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I sorry, but I just have to point out they married her to Tyrion... A guy who deep down wants so badly to be the white knight... Maybe she should have been a little less aweful to him (I know she had reasons) and talked to him once in a while and he would have helped her... He stood up for her anyway before they were married... 

This idea that she had no options is nonsens, I mean it doesn't do any good for me to make up stuff that could have happened, but to suggest she was completely helpless is silly...

Dude, asking a Lannister to help her escape is utter nonsense. But as I said before, a discussion with you is utter nonsense, too.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

3 minutes ago, Marylou said:

Dude, asking a Lannister to help her escape is utter nonsense. But as I said before, a discussion with you is utter nonsense, too.

He literally helped her without being asked... And she didn't mind running to cersei...

but it's ok, just resort to personal attacks

[Marylou]

Oh my..... before you try to lecture me, start with yourself. 

[Morgana Lannister]

17 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Can you imagine how much more badass it might have been had she escaped with Tyrion... Ahh well, fantasy roads not taken...

But I will grant you that Sansa isn't IMO beyond redemption... Maybe she will turn on Little Finger and save Sweet Robin after all this time lulling me into a false sense of complacency... But I'll believe it when I see it, till then she's Cersei minus the sadistic streak (and incest) in my book: selfish, oblivious, and disloyal... She's even a Lannister at this point right?

Well, when I was reading the books for the first time I wanted to scream at Sansa not to run off with Dontos but, as I said, chances are she would be dead by now if she hadn't done.

I wouldn't blame her for being a Lannister in name lol (not saying you are doing but some characters in the books do lol) she was married against her will.  But I think this is going to serve a purpose in the end game but again my theories and yes... yet more theories lol - happily bet $100 though that Tyrion and Sansa bring LF down together, detonated by her finding out some plan of LF against either Robin, if he hasn't died naturally, or Harry and LF owes Ty a very big apologie... lol we shall see.  She has flaws of course, so do all of them or else it would be unrealistic writing.  I think her time with LF is what will make her bad ass, hence I said although I would have personally preferred her to escape with Ty and go on a journey in Essos that would keep Tyrion too much of a main character and her a more minor one...

 

[Morgana Lannister]

13 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

He literally helped her without being asked... And she didn't mind running to cersei...

but it's ok, just resort to personal attacks

Keep it polite guys

However, to those thinking she had better options, not saying she did or didn't, I would love for you guys to say what you would have done in her shoes.  I would start with myself, remember that Tyrion risked the wrath of the king to protect her and I would have conspired with him mayhaps... foolish or not... now any more ideas should be interesting and fun to explore 

Trusting Ser Dontos was another one - one she took - a passive person doesn't risk that at the hands of a drunk...

But would love to see more theories/options as to what she could have done to improve her circumstances

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

4 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Keep it polite guys

However, to those thinking she had better options, not saying she did or didn't, I would love for you guys to say what you would have done in her shoes.  I would start with myself, remember that Tyrion risked the wrath of the king to protect her and I would have conspired with him mayhaps... foolish or not... now any more ideas should be interesting and fun to explore 

 

that was the polite version of what I wanted to say... 

But anyway, it's funny, purely speculation but I wouldn't be surprised if Sansa and Tyrion end up together and on the Iron Throne; I see them becoming the villains though instead of the heroes...

but it's the speculation that's fun at this point since there hasn't been new material in years... Sorry speculating on an Internet forum makes people upset, but not really

 

[Darksnider05]

Her wanting to kill all Lannisters can't really be held against her.  But her not feeling out Tyrion as a potential convenient ally was on her.  She didn't need to be his wife or even try at that.  Tyrion didn't even expect that from her.

[Morgana Lannister]

Just now, LiveFirstDieLater said:

that was the polite version of what I wanted to say... 

But anyway, it's funny, purely speculation but I wouldn't be surprised if Sansa and Tyrion end up together and on the Iron Throne; I see them becoming the villains though instead of the heroes...

but it's the speculation that's fun at this point since there hasn't been new material in years... Sorry speculating on an Internet forum makes people upset, but not really

 

sorry feel like a horrible school head here but I just hate it when people get a little angry and personal, lol no harm done.

You hit on my fav theory but I don't think they will be villains or heroes more like a combination and I do fear if that happens, this is George lol, one of them will die; either she in childbirth and he ends up like Tywin situation wise or he dies and she has fallen for him by then

I agree lol we are all just desperate for more books!!!

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

sorry feel like a horrible school head here but I just hate it when people get a little angry and personal, lol no harm done.

You hit on my fav theory but I don't think they will be villains or heroes more like a combination and I do fear if that happens, this is George lol, one of them will die; either she in childbirth and he ends up like Tywin situation wise or he dies and she has fallen for him by then

I agree lol we are all just desperate for more books!!!

 

Well there are the odd "couple" of things going on with the original 8 pov's which is great for conspiracy theories: (by age)

Cat

Ned

Tyrion

Jon

Dany

Sansa

Arya

Bran

All the men are second sons

cat/Ned are a couple and dead (ish)

Then I would argue come three Targs followed by three Starks (and thus all related)

and three with wolves and three without (though of course there are three dragons too... Just not claimed yet, so enter speculation)

of course Tyrion and Sansa have been married... Both "betray" their fathers and "get them killed"

bran and dany both seem to be impotent/infertile now, but... (There could easily be outs for both)

I wouldn't be the first to offer the prospect of more couples...(Jon/Dany, Jon/Arya, or Jon/Dany&Arya)

Anyway these things always stuck out to me... But I understand this presentation is 90% incoherent 

[Marylou]

13 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I agree lol we are all just desperate for more books!!!

 

Yeah, tell me about it. At least we can all devour "the forsaken". Good stuff. I love he greyjoys