Was Longclaw originally a Valyrian steel blade other than House Mormont’s ancestral sword?

[sweetsunray]

I don't think Jeor was lying about how Longclaw got there. Maege giving the sword to Jeor at CB has imo not so much to do with her being a woman, but I think the sword is tied to beliefs and practices of the Mormont bloodline, for which I wrote a bear essay: bear ancestry

We have a few indications that the Mormonts have an origin in a bear-wedding related ritual: the indecent lady hanging at the entrance of the hall that Dacey loves so much (naked, with a bearskin, axe in one hand, baby in the other), the VS sword Longclaw, and Maege's and Alysanne's claim that they are skinchangers and a bear fathered their children, Alysanne claims to be unwed, and according to Jeor so does Maege. This all echoes real world subarctic bear-hunt traditions and legends.

Basically, the bear was a venerated taboo animal in germanic and subarctic regions where people had to rely a great deal on hunting. The bear was seen as a type of guardian or king of the forest and especially the forest's game. Bears were believed to be a man with a fur (when leaving his den... See a youtube video of Pedals to understand why*). It therefore was taboo to simply hunt bears, for it was murder or manslaughter. Only once a year a village was allowed to hunt one bear in a very ritualistic fashion. And it was believed that such a bear hunt would bring good luck in hunting other game the rest of the year.

Because a bear was believed to actually be human, a bear was believed to understand human language aside from an incredibly powerful and vengeful spirit. So many of the rituals and taboos (aroudn the globe) are about making sure the bear doesn't know he's being hunted, who hunts him, or even alert him to the fact that he's dead already. The hunters would carry the dead bear pretending they are just grooms carrying him to his bride in the village instead. And if the bear spirit discovered he was actually dead, they'd have also proclaimed they were innocent of having done it and scapegoat other people (Finnish hunters would say they were Swedish for example). An actual wedding ceremony was performed between a chosen maiden and the dead bear, and even traditional weddings between a man and a woman would involve being seated on a bearskin (and thus at least one of them pretending to be a bear).

The surviving legends and myths never portray a bear as a bear, but as a man living by himself in the woods, sleeping on a bearskin and having a hoard of riches. One of those is the legend of Wayland the Smith or in Norse Volundr. This legend tells what happens if you hunt a bear and break about every taboo and ignore the related traditions. A greedy evil king first kills Wayland in his sleep (it's not stated so, but well he wakes from his sleep with bear steaks burning on his fire), takes his golden ring and magical sword, hamstrings him (euphemism for cutting his balls) and then he's also denied the king's daughter for a bride. Instead he's imprisoned and has to smith for the king for years. Eventually he manages to avenge himself, by taking off the heads of both sons of the king (symbolically he gets his balls back) and seducing the princess. After extracting the promise of the king that his child with the princess will be the king's heir, he flies off as a bird (bear spirits return to the spirit world where the other bears are waiting to be reborn in bird-form) and leaves the sword with the princess. Most legendary swords of the middle ages are claimed to have been made by Wayland; Almace of Archbisshop of  Turpin, Curtana of Ogier the Dane, Durandal the sword of Roland, Mimung of one of Charlemagne's nephews, Sigmund's sword Gram later reforged and used by Sigurd to slay the dragon Fafnir, and even Arthurian legends claim several swords to have been of his making such as Caliburn, Adylok, Merveilleuse and more swords that are unnamed.

Applying this to the Mormont's tidbits we have in the books, we could see the indecent lady with the bearskin, baby and axe as the equivalent of Wayland's princess. She is the Mormont's ancestral mother who was wedded to a bear (while a stand in man got to have the honor of consummation), and so she is given the sword Longclaw (the bear's sword). This creates a bloodline from an ancestral mother and a totemic bear. The bloodline continued for 500 years, but with Jorah they get into a pickle. No survivng child is born to him and he is the last male heir (and Jeor would have been likewise it seems before that). As Bear Island having become part of the 7K they are in danger of their house and lands becoming that of another house in name (what the Lannisters attempt to do with the Tyrion-Sansa marriage). Only if the woman is significantly higher in status would she be able to keep her name. But Bear Island isn't a powerful rich house to begin with. Which noble son would be ready to give up his name and have his children be called Mormonts? These women require a father, not a husband who lays claim on their ancestral home. So, basically they choose to have "bastards" by an unknown/unnamed father, but steep it in tales of skinchanging to legitimize their children. Hence, their children were fathered by bears.

However, that means the bloodline now stems from a new totemic bear, a different bear, and keeping the sword Longclaw that would have belonged to the previous ancestral totemic bear that started the Mormont bloodline to begin with would be dishonorable. Maege's children and grandchildren are Mormonts but from two new totemic bears. Hence, she does not want to pass the sword on anymore.

Since Jeor's story, Maege's and Alysanne's claim about the fathers of their children fit so well with this ancient folklore, I do not think Longclaw is anything else than a VS sword that was given to Lady Mormont (of the carving at the gate) 500 years ago by her lover and father of her child to pass on.  

* Poor Pedals has been reported to have been killed by a hunter

 

 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

No, Dark Sister was in fact a bastard blade, hand and a halfer, fit for a woman, Visenya.

Well, my friend, that is absolutely the 1st time I've ever seen Dark Sister described as or called a bastard sword or seen/heard the pommel described as a 1.5 hander.   Can you back that up with citation?   Otherwise I stand behind everything I stated. I can't imagine a bastard sword being fitted for any woman, not even a hulk like Brienne.    

[Free folk Daemon]

On 17/10/2016 at 0:51 AM, Curled Finger said:

Sorry, couldn't resist.   Promise I will read everything else.  To the bold, I remembered Jorah actually took off with Longclaw then sent it back to Bear Island.   For all it's worth.   That goes to Jorah's character.   He wasn't that far gone for Lyness afterall.   

We don't even know that Dark Sister was ever at the wall.   (Though I am with you and believe BR took it North--there just isn't anything to substantiate it.)  Longclaw is clearly described as a bastard sword.   Not a long sword.  Longclaw is not Dark Sister.    The only sword that even comes close to Longclaw's description is Blackfyre.   And we don't know for sure that Blackfyre is a bastard sword.   All we do know is that it requires 1.5 hands to wield.   A bastard sword is longer and thicker than a long sword, but smaller than a greatsword.   This hands reference goes to the pommel, not the blade.   Dark Sister is a slender long sword.  Longclaw is a bastard sword. 

It's also my desire to have both Targ swords, hells bells, I want ALL the swords revealed in the story.   I have multiple drink bets riding on it.   Longclaw is one of the oldest Valyrian Steel Swords in Westeros.   It is stated in the inventories of the maesters of the Citadel.   It's been in the Mormont family for 500 years or so, along with the Tarly's Heartsbane, Royce's Lamentation and Lannister's Brightroar.  That doesn't by any means indicate that it wasn't someone else's sword 1st, but this is how it is recorded in the annuls of the land and all we really have to go on.   I get a kick out of all the secret identities of characters.  Longclaw may well be a secret Targ sword for all I know, but I can tell you it's not Orphan Maker, Dark Sister, Heartsbane, Ice, Lady Forlorn, Lamentation, Brightroar, Widows Wail, Oathkeeper, Nightfall, Red Rain or Dawn.   I will reserve judgement until I know more about Blackfyre, Vigilance and Truth.

There is no reason not to believe Jeor's sword isn't Longclaw.   By virture of its thusfar singular configuation Longclaw is special.  It doesn't need to be anything else.  There is a reason it is our only known bastard sword.   

Do you think Blackfyre could be Longclaw or swapped for Longclaw? Blackfyre is a bastard sword, as it's a hand-and-a-half sword, which I think is the same thing... I think possible though something tells me Illyrio Mopatis has tracked down Blackfyre in Essos for his son Aegon.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Free folk Daemon said:

Do you think Blackfyre could be Longclaw or swapped for Longclaw? Blackfyre is a bastard sword, as it's a hand-and-a-half sword, which I think is the same thing... I think possible though something tells me Illyrio Mopatis has tracked down Blackfyre in Essos for his son Aegon.

No Free folk, I don't think Longclaw is anything other than Longclaw. I think Longclaw as Longclaw is as bad ass and mysterious as any sword in universe.  However, if Blackfyre turns out to be a bastard sword (i'm not sure Blackfyre is a bastard sword, only that it is a 1.5 hand pommel) Longclaw is the only sword out there we can be sure it could be switched for.    I get the same vibe about Illyrio knowing where Blackfyre is...or at least was!  I think I look as forward to Blackfyre's reveal as Cersei's trial...

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, Free folk Daemon said:

Do you think Blackfyre could be Longclaw or swapped for Longclaw? Blackfyre is a bastard sword, as it's a hand-and-a-half sword, which I think is the same thing... I think possible though something tells me Illyrio Mopatis has tracked down Blackfyre in Essos for his son Aegon.

I believed that Blackfyre was longclaw almost to the the point of obsession.....unfortunately grrm was asked if it was and flat out said no.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Everyone wonders where is Dark Sister is , but nobody ever thinks about the sword of Orys Baratheon like Jon is suppose to be a bastard .

[Free folk Daemon]

On 01/11/2016 at 7:29 AM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Everyone wonders where is Dark Sister is , but nobody ever thinks about the sword of Orys Baratheon like Jon is suppose to be a bastard .

If we accept Dark Sister isn't Longclaw, do you think Longclaw is the sword formerly known as Orys Baratheon's sword (Torment?)?

[Pain killer Jane]

On 10/16/2016 at 7:13 PM, sweetsunray said:

I don't think Jeor was lying about how Longclaw got there. Maege giving the sword to Jeor at CB has imo not so much to do with her being a woman, but I think the sword is tied to beliefs and practices of the Mormont bloodline, for which I wrote a bear essay: bear ancestry

We have a few indications that the Mormonts have an origin in a bear-wedding related ritual: the indecent lady hanging at the entrance of the hall that Dacey loves so much (naked, with a bearskin, axe in one hand, baby in the other), the VS sword Longclaw, and Maege's and Alysanne's claim that they are skinchangers and a bear fathered their children, Alysanne claims to be unwed, and according to Jeor so does Maege. This all echoes real world subarctic bear-hunt traditions and legends.

Basically, the bear was a venerated taboo animal in germanic and subarctic regions where people had to rely a great deal on hunting. The bear was seen as a type of guardian or king of the forest and especially the forest's game. Bears were believed to be a man with a fur (when leaving his den... See a youtube video of Pedals to understand why*). It therefore was taboo to simply hunt bears, for it was murder or manslaughter. Only once a year a village was allowed to hunt one bear in a very ritualistic fashion. And it was believed that such a bear hunt would bring good luck in hunting other game the rest of the year.

Because a bear was believed to actually be human, a bear was believed to understand human language aside from an incredibly powerful and vengeful spirit. So many of the rituals and taboos (aroudn the globe) are about making sure the bear doesn't know he's being hunted, who hunts him, or even alert him to the fact that he's dead already. The hunters would carry the dead bear pretending they are just grooms carrying him to his bride in the village instead. And if the bear spirit discovered he was actually dead, they'd have also proclaimed they were innocent of having done it and scapegoat other people (Finnish hunters would say they were Swedish for example). An actual wedding ceremony was performed between a chosen maiden and the dead bear, and even traditional weddings between a man and a woman would involve being seated on a bearskin (and thus at least one of them pretending to be a bear).

The surviving legends and myths never portray a bear as a bear, but as a man living by himself in the woods, sleeping on a bearskin and having a hoard of riches. One of those is the legend of Wayland the Smith or in Norse Volundr. This legend tells what happens if you hunt a bear and break about every taboo and ignore the related traditions. A greedy evil king first kills Wayland in his sleep (it's not stated so, but well he wakes from his sleep with bear steaks burning on his fire), takes his golden ring and magical sword, hamstrings him (euphemism for cutting his balls) and then he's also denied the king's daughter for a bride. Instead he's imprisoned and has to smith for the king for years. Eventually he manages to avenge himself, by taking off the heads of both sons of the king (symbolically he gets his balls back) and seducing the princess. After extracting the promise of the king that his child with the princess will be the king's heir, he flies off as a bird (bear spirits return to the spirit world where the other bears are waiting to be reborn in bird-form) and leaves the sword with the princess. Most legendary swords of the middle ages are claimed to have been made by Wayland; Almace of Archbisshop of  Turpin, Curtana of Ogier the Dane, Durandal the sword of Roland, Mimung of one of Charlemagne's nephews, Sigmund's sword Gram later reforged and used by Sigurd to slay the dragon Fafnir, and even Arthurian legends claim several swords to have been of his making such as Caliburn, Adylok, Merveilleuse and more swords that are unnamed.

Applying this to the Mormont's tidbits we have in the books, we could see the indecent lady with the bearskin, baby and axe as the equivalent of Wayland's princess. She is the Mormont's ancestral mother who was wedded to a bear (while a stand in man got to have the honor of consummation), and so she is given the sword Longclaw (the bear's sword). This creates a bloodline from an ancestral mother and a totemic bear. The bloodline continued for 500 years, but with Jorah they get into a pickle. No survivng child is born to him and he is the last male heir (and Jeor would have been likewise it seems before that). As Bear Island having become part of the 7K they are in danger of their house and lands becoming that of another house in name (what the Lannisters attempt to do with the Tyrion-Sansa marriage). Only if the woman is significantly higher in status would she be able to keep her name. But Bear Island isn't a powerful rich house to begin with. Which noble son would be ready to give up his name and have his children be called Mormonts? These women require a father, not a husband who lays claim on their ancestral home. So, basically they choose to have "bastards" by an unknown/unnamed father, but steep it in tales of skinchanging to legitimize their children. Hence, their children were fathered by bears.

However, that means the bloodline now stems from a new totemic bear, a different bear, and keeping the sword Longclaw that would have belonged to the previous ancestral totemic bear that started the Mormont bloodline to begin with would be dishonorable. Maege's children and grandchildren are Mormonts but from two new totemic bears. Hence, she does not want to pass the sword on anymore.

Since Jeor's story, Maege's and Alysanne's claim about the fathers of their children fit so well with this ancient folklore, I do not think Longclaw is anything else than a VS sword that was given to Lady Mormont (of the carving at the gate) 500 years ago by her lover and father of her child to pass on.  

* Poor Pedals has been reported to have been killed by a hunter

 

 

Loved the explanation. I love your bear essays. Do you think that the new 'weapon' of the Mormonts is the ax as depicted in the craving? Since you pointed out the story being relayed to Asha Greyjoy in order for Asha to mimic the Mormont women. 

[Pain killer Jane]

As complete tinfoil, I would accept Longclaw to be Vigilance just because of the mysteriousness of the Hightowers, Lynesse's marrying Jorah, and last time Vigilance is mentioned is during the death of Lord Ormund's death at the hand of Roddy the Ruin and his Winter Wolves. 

And I kind of what to know why House Tyrell doesn't have a VS sword but have an infamous knight name Leo, Longthorn and why his nickname parallels Longclaw? 

Parallels:

Jon symbolized by a blue rose.
Leo was the Lord of Highgarden and therefore a red rose
Leo is the constellation of the lion. So the nickname Longthorn could be viewed as making a lion's claw as a thorn in order to mesh with the rose sigil. 

And then we have this from Ned:

Quote

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

 

 

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, Free folk Daemon said:

If we accept Dark Sister isn't Longclaw, do you think Longclaw is the sword formerly known as Orys Baratheon's sword (Torment?)?

Do we have any idea if Torment is a Valyrian Steel sword?   It isn't listed in the Inventories among our known VS swords.   A good deal was made of Blackfyre and Dark Sister when they appeared in Westeros.    If this Torment sword was VS, wouldn't there have been some marketing about it?   What a bitchen name though.   

[Free folk Daemon]

On 08/11/2016 at 4:18 AM, Curled Finger said:

Do we have any idea if Torment is a Valyrian Steel sword?   It isn't listed in the Inventories among our known VS swords.   A good deal was made of Blackfyre and Dark Sister when they appeared in Westeros.    If this Torment sword was VS, wouldn't there have been some marketing about it?   What a bitchen name though.   

There is no proof I've seen that Torment is Valyrian Steel. The only mention I've found so far is on a fansite of the TV show, http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Orys_Baratheon, so may have been made up by the show writers or have another name or no name in GRRM's mind. The name is badass. It makes me think of the torment a storm can bring. According to the section on Orys Baratheon he took it from Argilac Durrandon after he slew him in the battle for Storm's End. If more references to Torment could be found would help to confirm if the sword is canon.

[Lord Lannister]

Jeor's story never did add up at all. Leaving aside the fact that neither Jorah or any of the Mormont women have ever mentioned Longclaw, Jorah was in possession of the sword during the time frame when Tywin was actively courting the Lords of Westeros to purchase a Valyrian steel sword. He was willing to sacrifice everything to provide the lavish lifestyle that he thought would make his wife happy, but not the sword?

You could argue that it was in Jorah's character to sacrifice his personal honor, but not the family's, but then Maege and Jeor's own actions dont make sense. If the sword is that important to the family, that even Jorah at his slaving worst wouldn't part with it then Maege returning it to Jeor doesn't make any sense. There's no future for the sword remaining in the family in the Night's Watch. If it's a men only thing, then the sword could be kept in safekeeping until one of Alysane's sons came of age. But it's not as if the Mormonts have issues with female fighters or authority.

Jeor's own actions with the sword don't line up with the supposed importance it has with the family. Him wielding it until a male heir comes of age and he can send it home then might make sense, but that's not what he did. If he's so ashamed of Jorah that the sight of the sword is painful, the last thing you're going to do is give it to your steward to wear, whom you're going to see every day. It's not as if there wasn't a thousand other ways the Lord Commander could reward a member of the Night's Watch for valor. And if Jorah's shame was such a stain on the family and he kept the sword for it, then what does it say of Jeor who just gave it to a Stark bastard he barely even knew? It could have just as easily sat in Maege's closet rather than Jeor's at least it would be there for the family when someone was worthy of it.

I'm leaning towards one of the Targaryen swords myself, but admittedly the evidence gets shaky here. Bloodraven had Dark Sister at one point, but the sword's descriptions don't match Longclaw's. Blackfyre could be possible but that gets even more hazy. Bittersteel supposedly recovered it after Redgrass field... only to be so devoted to the Blackfyre dynasty he never gave the sword to one of the remaining heirs. It's possible Bloodraven recovered it and Bittersteel just lied about it to save face for the Blackfyres and never gave it because that would be admitting he didn't have it. So it's possible that one or both of the Targaryen swords ended up at the wall, and Jeor handed it off to Jon because he knew more about the Others than he let on. Maybe even more about Jon.

[ShimShim]

" its slender blade is designed for a woman's hand." I don't see how a small longsword meant to be wielded by a women, is the bastard sword which is considerably bigger than Darksister. 

[Curled Finger]

18 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Jeor's story never did add up at all. Leaving aside the fact that neither Jorah or any of the Mormont women have ever mentioned Longclaw, Jorah was in possession of the sword during the time frame when Tywin was actively courting the Lords of Westeros to purchase a Valyrian steel sword. He was willing to sacrifice everything to provide the lavish lifestyle that he thought would make his wife happy, but not the sword?

You could argue that it was in Jorah's character to sacrifice his personal honor, but not the family's, but then Maege and Jeor's own actions dont make sense. If the sword is that important to the family, that even Jorah at his slaving worst wouldn't part with it then Maege returning it to Jeor doesn't make any sense. There's no future for the sword remaining in the family in the Night's Watch. If it's a men only thing, then the sword could be kept in safekeeping until one of Alysane's sons came of age. But it's not as if the Mormonts have issues with female fighters or authority.

Jeor's own actions with the sword don't line up with the supposed importance it has with the family. Him wielding it until a male heir comes of age and he can send it home then might make sense, but that's not what he did. If he's so ashamed of Jorah that the sight of the sword is painful, the last thing you're going to do is give it to your steward to wear, whom you're going to see every day. It's not as if there wasn't a thousand other ways the Lord Commander could reward a member of the Night's Watch for valor. And if Jorah's shame was such a stain on the family and he kept the sword for it, then what does it say of Jeor who just gave it to a Stark bastard he barely even knew? It could have just as easily sat in Maege's closet rather than Jeor's at least it would be there for the family when someone was worthy of it.

I'm leaning towards one of the Targaryen swords myself, but admittedly the evidence gets shaky here. Bloodraven had Dark Sister at one point, but the sword's descriptions don't match Longclaw's. Blackfyre could be possible but that gets even more hazy. Bittersteel supposedly recovered it after Redgrass field... only to be so devoted to the Blackfyre dynasty he never gave the sword to one of the remaining heirs. It's possible Bloodraven recovered it and Bittersteel just lied about it to save face for the Blackfyres and never gave it because that would be admitting he didn't have it. So it's possible that one or both of the Targaryen swords ended up at the wall, and Jeor handed it off to Jon because he knew more about the Others than he let on. Maybe even more about Jon.

We don't currently have a description of Vigilance or Truth, either.   There is mention of the colors of both Red Rain and Orphan-Maker and I believe Nightfall is described as a long sword.   Color of the blade matters in all this.   

As to why Jeor would give the sword to Jon, I think there is a story behind the Mormonts gaining Longclaw in the 1st place.   They were never described as wealthy, though I'm sure they were well enough off (for a little while any way) to gain a daughter such as Lyness Hightower.   Tywin may never have approached them.  Still, I don't think they were rich, I think they kept their heads above water.   So how could they possibly afford a Valyrian Steel Sword?  I don't think they did.   I think it was given to them for a reason.   By Valyrians.   Or perhaps they earned it in trade from some merchant?   Or they lifted it from some pirating Iron Born who stole it from other pirates?  Won it in a contest?  There are many ways the Mormonts could have come about this sword without purchasing it.   As to giving the sword away...I think you have to believe somewhat that Longclaw was only Mormont's in trust.  Or the story line that Jeor was grateful to Jon for saving his life.   Perhaps Jorah was the last in a very long line extending 500 years back wherein Longclaw had to be given to the 1st son or last son.    Jeor may have been honor bound not to keep the sword in the family after Jorah left.   Or as you say indeed, Jeor knew something about Jon we aren't told about.   

I'm with you 100% that the Mormont story, such as we have, is inadequate to explain both the acquisition and bequeathal of Longclaw.   This is part of why I don't need Longclaw to be Blackfyre or any other of the known named VS swords.   It's very mysterious all by itself.