Snippets from season 7

[HanginginWesteros]

29 minutes ago, Evarei said:

I totally understand him not jumping ship immediately. For reasons @dsug pointed out. Also his duty is to the people of King's Landing. He has every reason to consider it a possibility Daenerys could be Mad King Come Again. And that's something he wouldn't want inflicted on Westeros at all. He fights because he doesn't want KL to be sacked which would mean needless deaths of civilians.

Once Daenerys sets her sights on the real threat, and Jaime sees what Jon and she are about, he will make the right choice.

Perhaps with some persuasion from Brienne. Maybe Bronn will tell Tyrion that if he wants to convince his brother to come to his side, he should turn to Brienne. Bronn is quite aware of the unspoken feelings between those two.

[Philokles]

Maybe if the last few seasons hadn't been utter dross, people would have some trust that the nonsensical sounding plot isn't actually awful. D&D have long since burnt off any lingering belief that it will work out well.

[Evarei]

There's a flame war between shippers going on right now. Shippers of Jon x anyone who's not Daenerys (mainly Jonsas) are trashing the spoilers mostly because they're salty their ship is not to be show canon, it has nothing to do with narrative and natural plot progression. Because narratively speaking Jon and Daenerys was always going to happen, in the books too. Any other Jon pairing is just crackship.

I have no problem with the Jonerys parts in the leak save for 'he decides he will renounce his title and pledge himself to her' bit. He shouldn't have to pay for her help with The North and his crown. It's her duty and problem too if she wants to lay claim to Westeros. It's not just his. She should do it anyway without additional benefits. It makes them both look bad, especially as it happens after she witnesses what's coming.

[kg1982]

5 minutes ago, Evarei said:

There's a flame war between shippers going on right now. Shippers of Jon x anyone who's not Daenerys (mainly Jonsas) are trashing the spoilers mostly because they're salty their ship is not to be show canon, it has nothing to do with narrative and natural plot progression. Because narratively speaking Jon and Daenerys was always going to happen, in the books too. Any other Jon pairing is just crackship.

I have no problem with the Jonerys parts in the leak save for 'he renounces his title and pledges himself to her' bit. He shouldn't have to pay for her help with The North and his crown. It's her duty and problem too if she wants to lay claim to Westeros. It's not just his. She should do it anyway without additional benefits. It makes them both look bad, especially as it happens after she witnesses what's coming.

Frankly, I think that Jon and Sansa is grosser than Jon and Dany.  I am not a teen girl so I don't care who ends up together.  The plot is just stupid and bad.

[Bear Claw]

2 minutes ago, Evarei said:

There's a flame war between shippers going on right now. Shippers of Jon x anyone who's not Daenerys (mainly Jonsas) are trashing the spoilers mostly because they're salty their ship is not to be show canon, it has nothing to do with narrative and natural plot progression. Because narratively speaking Jon and Daenerys was always going to happen, in the books too. Any other Jon pairing is just crackship.

I have no problem with the Jonerys parts in the leak save for 'he renounces his title and pledges himself to her' bit. He shouldn't have to pay for her help with The North and his crown. It's her duty and problem too if she wants to lay claim to Westeros. It's not just his. She should do it anyway without additional benefits. It makes them both look bad, especially as it happens after she witnesses what's coming.

Spoiler

My biggest problem isn't the shipping. It's that this leak says  that the NK uses Viserion to get through the wall. That means it is Jon and Dany's fault that the Wall falls. Next, they go to Kings Landing to show everyone the great danger- that they just let in. Who can support these leaders? Jon and Dany are responsible for the WWs attacking Westeros. I thought they were going to fight the WWs not let them in. I guess I was wrong, but it is a train wreck. 

Spoiler

 

 

[Evarei]

You just seem very angry that Jon supposedly becomes a 'submissive boy toy' but that's not even in the leak. That's just your interpretation. And I say it's quite off mark. Same goes for Jonerys being portrayed as 'some Twilight stuff'. it's definitely not going to be that.

[kg1982]

10 minutes ago, Evarei said:

You just seem very angry that Jon supposedly becomes a 'submissive boy toy' but that's not even in the leak. That's just your interpretation. And I say it's quite off mark. Same goes for Jonerys being portrayed as 'some Twilight stuff'. it's definitely not going to be that.

He kneels to her.  Ergo he is her submissive boy toy.  Also, the leaks suggest that she apparently keeps him hostage on Dragonstone.  I am not sure why he stays there otherwise.  Doesn't he have an actual job to do?

And I am not sure how sex on a boat interspersed with an apocalypse isn't hokey low grade romance novel.  

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, dsug said:

that's why i think the baby would be bargaining chip. Jaime's trying to be better. He wants to be a better man, a better commander, and he wanted to be a better father. so if Cersei tells him she's pregnant with his child, he'd be reluctant to harm her. she might even threaten the child to ensure his cooperation. Those two are done, but if there's a baby in the mix, it may kind of force them to work together. it's a classic tactic, manipulation through children. 

I could picture it now. Jaime's hands at her throat, Cersei sneering back at him. She says he can't kill her, he asks why not? "I'm carrying your child," she snarls. Jaime lets her go. 

Another scene. Jaime refuses to follow her orders. Cersei looks unfazed, and asks Qyburn to bring her moon tea as she runs her hands down her stomach. Jaime says she wouldn't. She says oh yes I would. Qyburn returns with the moon tea, Jaime knocks it out his hands and storms off, reluctantly doing what she says to stop her from killing his child. 

I think he would not want to harm her even if she has done what she has done without the pregnancy....

unfortunately I could see her manipulating him with the child. However, how could he follow the orders to attack people and kill them for a child who has not even been born and maybe is only an invention? (how could he know it?)

it's just so bad and sad IMHO. Jaime should just leave her thw sooner the better like in the books and ally with the other side: Helo them take KG without killing Cersei if possible. That would be a good deal considering Jaime's current state of mind. That would protect the people of KG too.

[Lord Friendzone]

37 minutes ago, kg1982 said:

Actually not really.  People thought that this would be subverted because it is so traditional fantasy.  However, if it needed to be done, I am not sure why boat sex while the Wall is falling and Jon as Dany's submissive boy toy needed to occur.  It strikes me that a political marriage between two equals would work just fine.

George is a romantic person, romance is key element in this story. He's not shy from using but who's to say it will have happily ever after. Nope, it won't end wel for them but love was foreshadowed since book 1 or 2 HOTU visions. It never said while the Wall is falling down. It happens in the same episode or afterwards. Political marriage makes sense, just like them being involved together. Then comes reveal of his parentage adds a bit of drama. That's how good storytelling works. If Jon hooks up with some random girl, that is bad. Not somethong that was foreshadowed for many years.

[Meera of Tarth]

47 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

It was foreshadowed for 6 seasons and 5 books that these two will be involved and it's a not stretch of imagination it'l be love affair or sex involved. You're bitching about something George and Weiss and Benioff wanted to do since day 1

I disagree the show has foreshadowed dyring six seasons any type of love of sex between this two.

some visual parallels like botb or Mhysa is not foreshadowing of romance.

[kg1982]

4 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

George is a romantic person, romance is key element in this story. He's not shy from using but who's to say it will have happily ever after. Nope, it won't end wel for them but love was foreshadowed since book 1 or 2 HOTU visions. It never said while the Wall is falling down. It happens in the same episode or afterwards. Political marriage makes sense, just like them being involved together. Then comes reveal of his parentage adds a bit of drama. That's how good storytelling works. If Jon hooks up with some random girl, that is bad. Not somethong that was foreshadowed for many years.

Or it is a political marriage where both or one party doesn't like each other?  That seems more in keeping with the world than them conveniently being in love and Jon conveniently becoming Dany's submissive puppy dog and handwaving all the issues over succession and politics away.  And the way it is portrayed is hokey as heck.  Really?  Sex while the Wall falls down is stupid.

[dsug]

9 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think he would not want to harm her even if she has done what she has done without the pregnancy....

unfortunately I could see her manipulating him with the child. However, how could he follow the orders to attack people and kill them for a child who has not even been born and maybe is only an invention? (how could he know it?)

it's just so bad and sad IMHO. Jaime should just leave her thw sooner the better like in the books and ally with the other side: Helo them take KG without killing Cersei if possible. That would be a good deal considering Jaime's current state of mind. That would protect the people of KG too.

If Cersei tells Jaime "do what I saw or I'm killing our child," he's not gonna stand there and be like "will you tho? Are you even pregnant? Cause I haven't seen any paperwork!" 

If she says she's pregnant and that she will kill it, he has no choice to believe her. He won't risk it. She COULD be lying, but she also COULD NOT be. Assuming she's lying is possibly putting an unborn child at risk, and Jaime won't have that. 

[Lord Friendzone]

4 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I disagree the show has foreshadowed dyring six seasons any type of love of sex between this two.

some visual parallels like botb or Mhysa is not foreshadowing of romance.

I said some type of connection between them and it's not stretch of imagination or out of realm of possibilities that it'll be love whether familial or romantic. Let's not act like Jon and Dany is out of nowhere, or wow i did not see that coming type of stuff.

Even my mates who are against were yep, they gonna be involved at some point while debating books or show. Even mom said that she thinks Jon and Dany will meet and probably fall in love. We're talking about someone who has never read the books.

The difference is that usually Jon and Dany would defeat white walkers, end up rulling, marrying and having kids. This is where George will go different route and we all understand this. This is turning usual trope on it's head. This GRRM work.

[Evarei]

Actually no he doesn't literally kneel to her. He made it clear. He said Jon would pledge himself if she helped and it happens in private. So he's still officially KITN at the end of the season and it's most likely she will never get to rule over Westeros anyway so his pledge won't matter anyway.  I mean they will introduce the whole 'Jon is the legitimate heir' twist for a reason no? Why bother with it if he doesn't end up as Lord of Westeros? Unless it's used as irony, a cruel twist of fate. Here stands the true King but he will not be one because "girl power" Daenerys calls dibs on the throne first and doesn't want to step aside for him. And if she does, then they will simply have him reject the crown or just kill him off.  The sex on the ship scene won't be fluff, rainbows and happy bunnies. It'll have dark undertones. It will come when they're both vulnerable and in need of comfort. She will be distressed over Viserion, he will be recovering from injuries and yet another close brush with death. Then it will be juxtaposed with tragedy aka The Wall crumbling. It could be a very powerful and iconic ending if done right.

[Sir Matthis Light]

Quiet honestly I think some people overestimate George when it comes to some troupes. Correct me if I'm mistaken but I remember some article I read a time ago where even George himself stated as an author there are some troupes you can't avoid.

I'll look and see if I can find it

[Lord Friendzone]

2 minutes ago, kg1982 said:

Or it is a political marriage where both or one party doesn't like each other?  That seems more in keeping with the world than them conveniently being in love and Jon conveniently becoming Dany's submissive puppy dog and handwaving all the issues over succession and politics away.  And the way it is portrayed is hokey as heck.  Really?  Sex while the Wall falls down is stupid.

Why does these have to dislike each other? They're not fundamentally different, in fact the sort of complement each other. Where one has strengths, the other have weakness ynd vice versa. I don't know how else can I explain it to you that love whether familia or romantic was always gonna happen. Why do you think Jon is part of bride of fire part in HOTU visions along with Drogo and possibly HIzdar or Euron. Books will differ in this whether this or that person. 

Submissive puppy dog...nothing in the leaks says this. Funny you're the only one seeing it,. so maybe just maybe you're imagining it.

Just like I wrote to Meera of Tarth here.

The difference is that usually Jon and Dany would defeat white walkers, end up rulling, marrying and having kids. This is where George will go different route and we all understand this. This is turning usual trope on it's head. This GRRM work.

They're not having sex while the Wall is falling down , read the damn leaks again and don't create stuff. It happens in the same episode and you you well these leaks are far from complete. Missing a lot of things in this.

 

[Queen of Procrastination]

14 minutes ago, kg1982 said:

He kneels to her.  Ergo he is her submissive boy toy.  Also, the leaks suggest that she apparently keeps him hostage on Dragonstone.  I am not sure why he stays there otherwise.  Doesn't he have an actual job to do?

And I am not sure how sex on a boat interspersed with an apocalypse isn't hokey low grade romance novel.  

It won't convince you, because completely hate Dany and won't ever see the romance in a positive light but I try it anyhow.

Please read the leaks more carefully. 

The leaks don't say that Dany keeps Jon hostage they say that they get along very well and that she likes him from the start. 

The leaker didn't say that Jon knelt to Dany it said that Jon offered to kneel to her in private and we don't know how she reacted to that offer. 

She show had many lords kneeling infront of others without becoming submissive boy toys. 

Ned, the Great Jon, Theon, Jorah, Lord Manderly, Lord Glover, etc. 

In Episode 1 of Season 5 Jon himself kneelt before a King, namely Stannis. I don't remember him becoming Stannis's boy toy. 

 

 

[Lord Friendzone]

3 minutes ago, Sir Matthis Light said:

Quiet honestly I think some people overestimate George when it comes to some troupes. Correct me if I'm mistaken but I remember some article I read a time ago where even George himself stated as an author there are some troupes you can't avoid.

I'll look and see if I can find it

Books are filled with cliche and tropes. YOu just can't go without some of them but it doesn't mean Jon is a hidden prince, he'll rule because of it. Or that Jon and Dany will fall in love and everything will be perfect. It's always about human emotions and love is part of it. It's the greatest strength and tragedy for human beings.

5 minutes ago, Evarei said:

Actually no he doesn't literally kneel to her. He made it clear. He said Jon would pledge himself if she helped and it happens in private. So he's still officially KITN at the end of the season and it's most likely she will never get to rule over Westeros anyway so his pledge won't matter anyway.  I mean they will introduce the whole 'Jon is the legitimate heir' twist for a reason no? Why bother with it if he doesn't end up as Lord of Westeros? Unless it's used as irony, a cruel twist of fate. Here stands the true King but he will not be one because "girl power" Daenerys calls dibs on the throne first and doesn't want to step aside for him. And if she does, then they will simply have him reject the crown or just kill him off.  The sex on the ship scene won't be fluff, rainbows and happy bunnies. It'll have dark undertones. It will come when they're both vulnerable and in need of comfort. She will be distressed over Viserion, he will be recovering from injuries and yet another close brush with death. Then it will be juxtaposed with tragedy aka The Wall crumbling. It could be a very powerful and iconic ending if done right.

That's it. He does it in private, not in front of public. It's symbolic gesture more than anything.

[Meera of Tarth]

10 minutes ago, dsug said:

If Cersei tells Jaime "do what I saw or I'm killing our child," he's not gonna stand there and be like "will you tho? Are you even pregnant? Cause I haven't seen any paperwork!" 

If she says she's pregnant and that she will kill it, he has no choice to believe her. He won't risk it. She COULD be lying, but she also COULD NOT be. Assuming she's lying is possibly putting an unborn child at risk, and Jaime won't have that. 

and the word of Cersei of an unborn child (who he knows will never be born bc of the prophecy) will make him destroy Highgarden and Olenna. This is not Jaime eithrr.

[Lord Friendzone]

Just now, Lady of Whisperers said:

It won't convince you, because completely hate Dany and won't ever see the romance in a positive light but I try it anyhow.

Please read the leaks more carefully. 

The leaks don't say that Dany keeps Jon hostage they say that they get along very well and that she likes him from the start. 

The leaker didn't say that Jon knelt to Dany it said that Jon offered to kneel to her in private and we don't know how she reacted to that offer. 

She show had many lords kneeling infront of others without becoming submissive boy toys. 

Ned, the Great Jon, Theon, Jorah, Lord Manderly, Lord Glover, etc. 

In Episode 1 of Season 5 Jon himself kneelt before a King, namely Stannis. I don't remember him becoming Stannis's boy toy. 

 

 

Not only that. It's a private act just between them and not official. We don't even know her reaction and if she wanted it. Probably not, because it happens after waht she saw before as white walkers attack.