Snippets from season 7

[kg1982]

58 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Ally with Dany? It's easier said than done. Why should she believe in ice monster not seen in thousands of years? It is in the leaks and logical from her point of view. Because Jon said so? Also, any alliance would go under demand of Jon swearing fealty to Dany. She wants this in the leaks too. As the the one with clearly superior forces.

In your scenario, Jon would bring his forces South, exposing the North...meanwhile WW could attack. we can say whatever we want on a wight hunt but Jon is between rock and a hard place. Dany while liking him, can't commit men cause until she solves Cersei. Meanwhile others do not want to join him. What else to do, go North and wait for White Walkers? He has to act and show everyone what is coming for them. It's risky but only option. Jon leading this expedition is what he always do Hardhome, Craster's Keep. He does his own work. That paints Jon in a god light by being the only who sees the bigger picture, others are fightig their petty wars. Next seeason is not butchering Jon, it's the exact opposite.

Jon and Dany could take a trip North on one of her dragons and he could show her the ice zombies.  As for Cersei, she was never going to ally with them because Dany is as much a threat to her as the ice zombies.  Jon could probably made a deal with someone who was saner than Cersei like Kevan Lannister as long as Dany wasn't around.  (Tywin would have stabbed Jon in the back BTW but in a craftier way than Cersei apparently does.)  However, Dany poses a problem because she wants the Iron Throne and that threatens the Lannisters' power.  That would have been a non-starter even for Kevan Lannister and is even more of a non-starter for an actual crazy person like Cersei.  

And yes, the plot outline again destroys Jon's character by making him one of the dumbest people around.  It does not matter that he is moral or that he is trying to save everyone if his stupidity ends up making things worse.  Just because he is not interested in power doesn't mean that other people are pure as driven snow as well.  A good leader has to learn how to anticipate other people's motives and actions and to play dirty sometimes or he will end up getting people killed.  

[Le Cygne]

Actually the plot of the rumored season 7 storyline (aka the thread topic) is being criticized a lot at every fan site. Most people expected more.

What I expected more were unexpected things, and more character moments, follow up to stories that have been seeded all along.

Apart from the wight hunt, the action sequences seem predictable. And I said in detail what I find wrong with the wight hunt (see below).

Hopefully there will be more to this, the source was just something very action heavy, and there will be more meaningful character moments.

On 11/14/2016 at 7:40 AM, Le Cygne said:

No sense.

So to convince people you need help to engage the enemy or there will be dire consequences... engage the enemy with a handful of people and guess what, there are dire consequences.

Why not just send Dany, who is by then on friendly terms, north to observe from a safe distance. Or send Jorah, her trusted advisor, to report to her. (Key words here, observe from a distance.)

If they wanted Jaime (who rides off by himself anyway) on board, they could ask him to come north to observe, too. Or they could send someone he trusts, Brienne, to report to him.

It's really all about convincing Cersei, who is a known lying psychopath, just about everyone and his mama is aware of that, or knows someone who knows. And guess what, she lies to them.

She just blew up the High Sparrow and many others with wildfire after lying to them. She has a zombie queensguard who is torturing people who get in her way, including a septa. And much more.

Speaking of zombies... someone just pointed out, why would a zombie convince anyone? Qyburn can whip one of those up himself. And guess who is right there, exhibit B, the zombie he whipped up.

 

[whynnter]

17 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

The dragon must have three heads (not riders)

Targ (Dany and her allies)

Lannisters (Jamie and his allies)

Starks (Jon and his allies)

Those are your three heads.

Everything kg1982 has said up to this point is nonsense. It all makes perfect sense. I am sure a significant part of the Lannister Army will join Jamie, although it might not be instantaneous. Or Maybe Jamie goes to rally the Vale Forces. But I think Jamie will fulfill his redemption arc leading some force to swoop in and save the day much like we saw the Vale forces do in the Battle of the Bastards.

Now that you have said this it seems very clear to me...the Targaryens, the Starks, the Lannisters and the Baratheons have been the main four houses since the beginning of the story. It seems very ironic that in the end those are the four houses standing tall. Gendry might not seem important to a lot of people, but Gendry is the last living Baratheon that whoever ends up ruling (if anyone does) could end up making him the rightful heir, and all he has to do is marry to bring back the Baratheon name. Why am I only thinking of this now? 

Btw I really like your theory of the dragon having three heads is the Lannisters, Targaryens and Starks. 

As for the 'wight hunt' I don't see how anyone could think it doesn't make sense when. Nobody in Westeros, including Dany will believe that Jon is telling the truth. Why would Dany, or Jamie or anyone for that matter who isn't apart of Jon's story-line already believe him. They might have a speculation? Or they could try and trust him but its a HUGE risk to take forces and dragons all the way up north without proof that the WW are a true threat to the realm. All Dany is concerned about, and its all she has been concerned about since the first episode of the show, was to take back her home. Not to fight WW's who haven't been seen for thousands of years. I really hope I just made sense. 

[Ice Spider]

1 hour ago, kg1982 said:

Jon and Dany could take a trip North on one of her dragons and he could show her the ice zombies.  As for Cersei, she was never going to ally with them because Dany is as much a threat to her as the ice zombies.  Jon could probably made a deal with someone who was saner than Cersei like Kevan Lannister as long as Dany wasn't around.  (Tywin would have stabbed Jon in the back BTW but in a craftier way than Cersei apparently does.)  However, Dany poses a problem because she wants the Iron Throne and that threatens the Lannisters' power.  That would have been a non-starter even for Kevan Lannister and is even more of a non-starter for an actual crazy person like Cersei.  

And yes, the plot outline again destroys Jon's character by making him one of the dumbest people around.  It does not matter that he is moral or that he is trying to save everyone if his stupidity ends up making things worse.  Just because he is not interested in power doesn't mean that other people are pure as driven snow as well.  A good leader has to learn how to anticipate other people's motives and actions and to play dirty sometimes or he will end up getting people killed.  

You could not be more wrong. For someone that has constantly complained about the wight hunt as being stupid, your counter proposal is insanely inept. 

Yes, Dany could take a trip North and find out for herself. That only solves part of the equation. She is already at WAR with KL and it's allies, she just can't up and leave(witha portion of her forces). Not to mention that while she might might be convinced, her allies (Dorne,Dothraki, Unsullied, The reach, etc) would understand the sudden change in plans a whole lot better should they get the opportunity to see for themselves as well. 

What your suggesting is comparable to if the United states, during the midst of WWII, just suddenly up and left to go fight Canada, leaving it's allies in the lurk to fend for themselves. 

If Dany were to do as you say, what is to prevent Cersie and KL to invade Dorne and the Reach in her absence, not to mention attack her flank while she is fighting the WW's? 

The ONLY thing that is not STUPID, is to bring everyone together, show them the real threat, and negotiate a truce. 

[Ice Spider]

I would like to add, that for all those addressing the real concern of Cersie being someone to be trusted, might I remind you that Cersie is one person. Her hold on the throne is tenuous at best, and if Jamie were to leave her, I honestly think her grasp on power would disappear. 

Jamie, while not always aligned with the side of good, for the most part has always been projected as being honorable. This was evident when he forsake his vows to the king for the greater good of the people, and when He and Ned stark were fighting and Ned took a blow from  third party (cheap shot). 

With this in mind, convincing Cersie or expecting her to adhere to the terms of any truce is not the only means to an end. I am quite sure, while maybe not immediately, a good portion of the Lannister forces will feel the same as Jamie, and eventually join him. Not to mention that there will be fractured factions of the Freys, Tarly's, the Riverlands, the Ironborne that very well could join him. 

[kg1982]

18 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

You could not be more wrong. For someone that has constantly complained about the wight hunt as being stupid, your counter proposal is insanely inept. 

Yes, Dany could take a trip North and find out for herself. That only solves part of the equation. She is already at WAR with KL and it's allies, she just can't up and leave. Not to mention that while she might might be convinced, her allies (Dorne,Dothraki, Unsullied, The reach, etc) would understand the sudden change in plans a whole lot better should they get the opportunity to see for themselves as well. 

What your suggesting is comparable to if the United states, during the midst of WWII, just suddenly up and left to go fight Canada, leaving it's allies in the lurk to fend for themselves. 

If Dany were to do as you say, what is to prevent Cersie and KL to invade Dorne and the Reach in her absence, not to mention attack her flank while she is fighting the WW's? 

The ONLY thing that is not STUPID, is to bring everyone together, show them the real threat, and negotiate a truce. 

It is stupid because Cersei was always going to double cross them, which she does.  At the end of the season, Jon and Dany are apparently in a precarious situation because Cersei screws them over.  She wants their armies to be overrun by the ice zombies and that is what is going to happen.  They will end up having to fight a two front war against Cersei and the ice zombies anyway.  All Jon and Dany did was make their situation more precarious.  They lost one of their main weapons in a bid to convince a crazy tyrant to accept a ceasefire.  And then they fell for her double cross and put their armies in a position to be annilated.

Anyone could tell you that Cersei was not going to deal fair with Dany.  Dany is as much a threat to her as the ice zombies.  The only way Cersei wins is if Dany loses.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, Ice Spider said:

You could not be more wrong. For someone that has constantly complained about the wight hunt as being stupid, your counter proposal is insanely inept. 

Yes, Dany could take a trip North and find out for herself. That only solves part of the equation. She is already at WAR with KL and it's allies, she just can't up and leave. Not to mention that while he or she might might be convinced, her allies (Dorne,Dothraki, Unsullied, The reach, etc) would understand the sudden change in plans a whole lot better should they get the opportunity to see for themselves as well. 

What your suggesting is comparable to if the United states, during the midst of WWII, just suddenly up and left to go fight Canada, leaving it's allies in the lurk to fend for themselves. 

If Dany were to do as you say, what is to prevent Cersie and KL to invade Dorne and the Reach in her absence, not to mention attack her flank while she is fighting the WW's? 

The ONLY thing that is not STUPID, is to bring everyone together, show them the real threat, and negotiate a truce. 

First of all, the Unsullied and the Dothraki are more than just allies. They have decided on their own to fight for her for the iron throne and are devoted to her as their rightful queen. Not believing in her would just mean treason and not only that, it would be out of character for them not to trust in their Queen's decisions.

The Unsullied are trained to fight no matter the outcome and she has saved their lives. The Dothraki that remain there are the ones that might even believe more in the fantasy aspect of the wwws because they have seen that Dany is more than a Queen, she is the stallion who will conquer everything and truly has special powers. Apart from that, they could believe her duty is to save everyone's lives in Westeros before or after becoming the Queen of Westeros. After all, this is what she has done in Essos and they know she is special.

In conclusion, her army from Essos, which is big enough to defeat Cersei prior to defeat the wws (when they might need more people) would be instanctly convinced for the reasons above.

-Now, I could see there is a point in the other groups, her real allies. It would be harder to convince them.

However If they are Dany's allies it is because of a reason: They want her to become the next Queen instead of Cersei.

Moreover they perfectly know what type of person Cersei is, because they are from Westeros.

-Let's first suppose that they will be convinced this way.

So with all these together, and with the premise that the wight exhibition will convince them and not Dany's words of having seen it by herself.....how could they agree that it is more important to take the risk to be killed by Cersei in the dragonpit as a trap while not focusing on the real threat (making weapons)?

Once they know that the exhibition is going to take place (I suppose Dany would not wait to tell them what the purpose is since they are allies and at this moment they don't trust her)...do you think they would agree that Dany and Jon are the best leaders to defeat the whitewalkers having underestimated Cersei?

-Now let's suppose there are other options to convince them.

Some people (me included) have argued that if Dany saw the wwws she would be convinced, could not they bring other people to see that for themselves? I guess this is not an ideal scenario but we could think of other options. It might not work for TV since Olenna is very old and Ellaria is not a fan favorite but that doesn't mean it's intelligent to trust Cersei or the allies to trust their leaders also underestimating Cersei (in fact, what they would be doing is sacrificing logical writing by having good action scenes). However, we could have both.....

-To me, the wight hunt itself doesn't make sense, since Dany has enough people to defeat Cersei first, this is what their allies and would provide them enough resources to after, defeat the wwws.

However, considering we know the wight thing will be true (at least some aspects of it) and that Cersei is crazy, her allies know Cersei.....

I have thought of another possible solution. Supposing they need Dorne and The Reach to defat the wwws (which I can agree), since they are Dany's allies and all of them know Cersei's craziness (and the fact that a wight is just a wight and Cersei has "one" already) wouldn't it be better to make up a plan to defeat both Cersei and the wwws?

The leaks could have told us the obvious....bit what if Jon and Dany and their allies are doing "stupid but necessary things" just to make Cersei (and us) believe what she wants to believe?

That would make the season better, and unexpected.

 

[A Ghost of Someone]

13 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Yep. This is all sounding pretty bad, the only part that sounds sort of interesting is the bit with Bran and the ravens.

Bran, I certainly think in the books atleast is more signifigant in dealing with the threat of the Others/White Walkers. we still do not know how much of a diminished role he will suffer in the show for .... reasons but he should start doing some things that make a big impact.

[Evarei]

3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

 

completely agree. Many people have provided arguments to why the plot would be stupid if what the leaks says is true.

I really hope the reasons are different than the ones stated in the leaks BC there is no way to convince Cersei of this since she already has a zombie bodyguard and yesterday I mentioned other reasons to not believe in the ww invasion in regards to the exhibition.

The Mountain is something different to wights. It's been scientifically 'resurrected' and is controlled by Qyburn.

This is what Jon thinks of Cersei according to Lads

Quote

Jon understands that what's good for one part of Westeros is good for the land as a whole - everyone has to trade with everyone else.  And he knows Cersei is mental - he's heard enough about her to know she's completely unreasonable and wants him dead as a traitor.

But the situation calls for drastic measures, and Jon is desperate, he was willing to parlay with cannibals to get them on board against White Walkers. It's totally in character for him to try to unite the entire realm (including his enemies) and believe a unified front is in everyone's best interest. It's worth a try.

It certainly won't be the first risky, nearly suicidal mission Jon undertakes, he's done that  plenty of times. He's a true leader in that he does things he tells others to do, he's at the front, he doesn't order people around and sit back in safety. He also likely reckons it's better if he goes himself because he knows the enemy and he's been beyond The Wall for a long time, he can be the guide. And he's not a greenseer, how is he supposed to predict the exact consequences? How could he know Daenerys would show up and one of her dragons would be killed? He could he know Night King would show up and be able to kill a dragon in flight?

The mission does have at least one pay-off that we know of (could be more). It gets Jaime on board and away from Cersei. Cersei planning on doublecrossing Jon is the final straw for Jaime.

[Meera of Tarth]

8 minutes ago, Evarei said:

The Mountain is something different to wights. It's been scientifically 'resurrected' and is controlled by Qyburn.

This is what Jon thinks of Cersei according to Lads

 

I know the Mountain is different, we all know. The point is that if someone has resurrected, how could Cersei know trhat the wight is not another scientifically-resurrected animal or something like this? Plus, a wight it's not even a ww, and they are allegedly (I hope it's more complex than taht) going to to convince Cersei by saying there is a huge army of hundreds or thousands of wws that have magic that controls the wights.

[Ice Spider]

24 minutes ago, kg1982 said:

It is stupid because Cersei was always going to double cross them, which she does.  At the end of the season, Jon and Dany are apparently in a precarious situation because Cersei screws them over.  She wants their armies to be overrun by the ice zombies and that is what is going to happen.  They will end up having to fight a two front war against Cersei and the ice zombies anyway.  All Jon and Dany did was make their situation more precarious.  They lost one of their main weapons in a bid to convince a crazy tyrant to accept a ceasefire.  And then they fell for her double cross and put their armies in a position to be annilated.

Anyone could tell you that Cersei was not going to deal fair with Dany.  Dany is as much a threat to her as the ice zombies.  The only way Cersei wins is if Dany loses.

Proof?

 

Could happen sure, doesn't mean trying is stupid, not if its humanities only shot. 

[Ice Spider]

6 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I know the Mountain is different, we all know. The point is that if someone has resurrected, how could Cersei know trhat the wight is not another scientifically-resurrected animal or something like this? Plus, a wight it's not even a ww, and they are allegedly (I hope it's more complex than taht) going to to convince Cersei by saying there is a huge army of hundreds or thousands of wws that have magic that controls the wights.

The mountain technically never died. 

[Ice Spider]

8 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I know the Mountain is different, we all know. The point is that if someone has resurrected, how could Cersei know trhat the wight is not another scientifically-resurrected animal or something like this? Plus, a wight it's not even a ww, and they are allegedly (I hope it's more complex than taht) going to to convince Cersei by saying there is a huge army of hundreds or thousands of wws that have magic that controls the wights.

Cersie will never be dealt with by conventional means, she will be assassinated/Killed by Jamie, etc. Your not paying attention. Given the facts I doubt a good portion of her forces will remain loyal  

[Ice Spider]

There still hasn't been one different plot other than the wight expedition that makes more sense. Suddenly, it's not looking so "stupid" after all. 

[kg1982]

13 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

Proof?

 

Could happen sure, doesn't mean trying is stupid, not if its humanities only shot. 

I am going by the leaks.  She leaves them in the lurch so they get massacred by the ice zombies.

[kg1982]

4 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

There still hasn't been one different plot other than the wight expedition that makes more sense. Suddenly, it's not looking so "stupid" after all. 

Actually, we have pointed out different plots and why allying with Cersei makes no sense.  If it works for you, then that is fine but do not attack those of us who think it is dumb.  

[kg1982]

8 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

Cersie will never be dealt with by conventional means, she will be assassinated/Killed by Jamie, etc. Your not paying attention. Given the facts I doubt a good portion of her forces will remain loyal  

How is Jaime going to kill Cersei if he is nowhere near King's Landing?

[Meera of Tarth]

5 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

The mountain technically never died. 

I don't know if he died totally or not, but my point is valid regardless of it: Cersei might believe that a wight is an aminal/person who died and was scientifically resurrected like The Mountain, or else is a person/animal who didn't die but was about to and has been scientifically changed into a wight. How can this be proof of an army of hundreds or thousands of wws that control them? Anyone who sees it would have to trust in the whole version of Jon, so technically is not a real proof.

Moreover, there is the fact that Cersei is crazy and inestable and even if she thought they exist, that doesn't mean she would think there are a huge army and that the Wall would cease to exist and thus, this become a real threat for her. Let's not adress another time the point that Jon, Dany and her allies are not taking into consideration that Cersei could put them in a trap whatsoever.

1 minute ago, Ice Spider said:

Cersie will never be dealt with by conventional means, she will be assassinated/Killed by Jamie, etc. Your not paying attention. Given the facts I doubt a good portion of her forces will remain loyal  

You are confusing two things: how Cersei can be defeated in a rational way and how Cersei could be defeated in an emotional way: Jaime and her forces. Both things are not incompatible with the use of good writing (that can be unexpected and shocking too): Dany could do what she has to do trying to defeat her but not actually end up doing it because the crown has a better strategy. She coudl leave to CR too. She could then be defeated in the emotional way you are referring to.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

10 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

No, not in my opinion, this was not Grmm's intent at all. All the foreshadowing is against this. See my post on the three heads of the dragon, it has nothing to do with "dragon riders". Westeros must be united, to stand a chance to defeat the others. This is exactly what Jon is trying to avoid (an unprepared Westeros), so time is of the essence, at least in his mind. This much is a given.

To defeat the Others you need a united Westeros, yes, but I am referring to the point when the Others attack. GRRM is most certainly setting up Westeros to be extremely weak and wrecked by war after war when the Others invade.

10 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

No, you cannot wait. Winter is here. NOW. Why on Earth would you wait for two forces to annihilate each other, when you could possibly unite them to your cause? This, in my opinion, is the epitome of stupidity. So, Jon is supposed to sit by twiddling his thumbs while the forces in the south finish their stupid war? Every soldier that falls is a soldier that could have been utilized in the fight for humanity. Not to mention an inevitable foe, resurrected as a wight by the nights king. Explain how that makes any sense what-so-ever?

What? As far as Jon or anyone knows, the Others cannot cross the Wall. The reason the Wall exists is for that very purpose. Winter is here but it's not like the Others are attacking in a matter of 2 hours.

Also, from the shooting locations, we can assume that Winter has still not arrived in the South. If the Others were truly on the doorstep, shouldn't winter be falling all over the land at an alarming pace? That doesn't seem to be the case. 

10 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

You know, I am not going to argue this point with you to much as I tend to agree with you here, but will reserve judgment on how in the heck the Lannister's even have a chance. Some of the spoilers tell us that a good portion of the Reach's forces do not stay with the Tyrell's, which I can't understand why, but that could explain a lot.

This point is actually the root cause of the entire stupidity of the plotline. For some inexplicable reason, Cersei is still alive and actually has some power (WTF?) at the end of the season, somehow bringing about the need for Dany and Jon to ally with her. That's the entire reason this wight plotline even exists. By general rules of logic, Dany with her army consisting of Unsullied, Dothraki, 3 dragons, Martells and half of the Tyrell army should be enough to decimate the Lannister army (already considerably weakened after the Wot5K). Tarly suddenly turning is a lame-ass last ditch attempt to explain the strength of the Lannisters; but again that's very weak logic because no Lord in their right mind would turn against the side with dragons for the side who blew up all their allies. 

Even then, Dany's army should actually have comfortably destroyed Cersei by Episode 2 of this season at the latest. You don't even need to kill Jaime - heck, you could make him have a change of heart on seeing Tyrion, realising how shitty Cersei is, whatever. The Lannister army would follow Jaime, and Dany could pardon him or something. Conquest of the South done, everyone moves North while Dany flies over the Wall to see the Wights.

There's barely any sense in keeping Cersei as some formidable power till the end of the season - and yet they have chosen to do that for a reason I simply cannot fathom (my best bet is their extreme favouritism of the character.) That's what has introduced this need to bring back "proof" for the Southerners that the Others are coming. It's very clear that it's an extremely contrived plot which totally requires extreme suspension of disbelief , and that's the main reason I would guess most people are criticising it so heavily.

ETA: Thread for R & R of the leaks is awaiting approval, messaged a mod about it.

[kg1982]

26 minutes ago, Evarei said:

The Mountain is something different to wights. It's been scientifically 'resurrected' and is controlled by Qyburn.

This is what Jon thinks of Cersei according to Lads

But the situation calls for drastic measures, and Jon is desperate, he was willing to parlay with cannibals to get them on board against White Walkers. It's totally in character for him to try to unite the entire realm (including his enemies) and believe a unified front is in everyone's best interest. It's worth a try.

It certainly won't be the first risky, nearly suicidal mission Jon undertakes, he's done that  plenty of times. He's a true leader in that he does things he tells others to do, he's at the front, he doesn't order people around and sit back in safety. He also likely reckons it's better if he goes himself because he knows the enemy and he's been beyond The Wall for a long time, he can be the guide. And he's not a greenseer, how is he supposed to predict the exact consequences? How could he know Daenerys would show up and one of her dragons would be killed? He could he know Night King would show up and be able to kill a dragon in flight?

The mission does have at least one pay-off that we know of (could be more). It gets Jaime on board and away from Cersei. Cersei planning on doublecrossing Jon is the final straw for Jaime.

Why does Jaime with no army matter?  The only use for Jaime is that he can tell Jon and Dany to turn the love boat around and  get their behinds down to KL to finish off his sister.  Which is what they should have been doing in the first place.