Snippets from season 7

[Meera of Tarth]

32 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

There still hasn't been one different plot other than the wight expedition that makes more sense. Suddenly, it's not looking so "stupid" after all. 

@Ice Spider you could reason why the other plots just make less sense instead of just saying "it doesn't" in short posts. Moreover, I have quoted your posts and said that you were correct in some things in my humble opinion, like when you said that Dorne and the Reach might not be easily convinced, and gave another solution that doesn't contradict the leaks. The blank part  is still what is this plan. I think this could not contradict them since the leaks were very likely from storyboards and lack of dialogue.

[Meera of Tarth]

3 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Actually the plot of the rumored season 7 storyline (aka the thread topic) is being criticized a lot at every fan site. Most people expected more.

What I expected more were unexpected things, and more character moments, follow up to stories that have been seeded all along.

Apart from the wight hunt, the action sequences seem predictable. And I said in detail what I find wrong with the wight hunt (see below).

Hopefully there will be more to this, the source was just something very action heavy, and there will be more meaningful character moments.

 

Speaking of the unexpected, I believe there is a small chance that Jon and Dany have a better plan and want to make Cersei believe what she wants to believe. It's just that even if they thought the wight would convince the Realm in general (this is going to be true) they have a better strategy than this. This, of course, considering that they "want" to convince Cersei. it's very out of character for Dany too.

[Meera of Tarth]

59 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Bran, I certainly think in the books atleast is more signifigant in dealing with the threat of the Others/White Walkers. we still do not know how much of a diminished role he will suffer in the show for .... reasons but he should start doing some things that make a big impact.

Oh, I think he'll be very important, and I have the feeling that we'll see it if not next season (I really hope he actually has a better plot than sttaying around like the "leaks" say about the North), in season 8, 'probably they are saving the majority of the good plots for then.

[A Ghost of Someone]

1 minute ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Oh, I think he'll be very important, and I have the feeling that we'll see it if not next season (I really hope he actually has a better plot than sttaying around like the "leaks" say about the North), in season 8, 'probably they are saving the majority of the good plots for then.

I think in the books, anyway, that is more important than even Jon in saving humanity. He is also the True King in the North, not Jon.

[Meera of Tarth]

5 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I think in the books, anyway, that is more important than even Jon in saving humanity. He is also the True King in the North, not Jon.

I completely agree in both of the things you mentioned. But I also think they will give him a "small" part of saving humanity in the show too, although not as important than the one in the books because he is not as "cool" as the others (if only I'm wrong!)

And regarding the King  part.....When Jon knows about Bran being in WF/Castle Black, would not he have to cede his kingship to him or at least discuss it?

[Newstar]

14 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I completely agree in both of the things you mentioned. But I also think they will give him a "small" part of saving humanity in the show too, although not as important than the one in the books because he is not as "cool" as the others (if only I'm wrong!)

And regarding the King  part.....When Jon knows about Bran being in WF/Castle Black, would not he have to cede his kingship to him or at least discuss it?

Would he? That assumes that Bran coming ahead of him in the line of succession and arriving at WF would change things. However, Jon accepted the title even though Sansa was sitting right next to him, and even though he knew that Bran was alive. He wasn't elected solely on the basis of blood, either, even though that's how Lyanna Mormont started the ball rolling: Manderly praised the fact that Jon had avenged the Red Wedding, something that is not true of Bran. So I don't see how Bran's arrival at WF would change Jon's mind, given that he knew all that and accepted the KITN title anyway. If he accepted it over Sansa, even though she was in the line of succession for WF and was present at WF when he was named KITN, how would Bran's presence change anything?

If the Northern lords are cool with naming Jon KITN over Sansa, I doubt Bran's presence would change anything for them, either.

Aside from the question of whether he should have to cede his KITN title, he clearly doesn't, according to the leaks. He finds out Bran and Arya are safe at Winterfell in Episode 5 and later in the season volunteers to give up the KITN title in exchange for Dany's help. It seems, therefore, that Bran's presence at Winterfell doesn't change anything for him.

It seems like a bit of an academic point, anyway, since according to the leaker Bran is spaced out and not all there in Season 7.

[A Ghost of Someone]

16 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I completely agree in both of the things you mentioned. But I also think they will give him a "small" part of saving humanity in the show too, although not as important than the one in the books because he is not as "cool" as the others (if only I'm wrong!)

And regarding the King  part.....When Jon knows about Bran being in WF/Castle Black, would not he have to cede his kingship to him or at least discuss it?

First point, agreed huge, kind of like killing off Rickon, the creators feel probably that we were not "invested" in him, so he was expendable and since they threw out Sansa's story, they needed a place for her, Winterfell.

As for the Kingship, Jon would or atleast should recognize imed that if Bran is confirmed back at Winterfell, that the crown of the North belongs to him above all others and if he surrenders, on the show or not, the crown to Dany, I will wish his character dead for good this time. IT is the Valaryan Steel that is needed, not the person and Jon does not have the powers Bran has and there are other Swordsman that are better than Jon so, he is expendable to me, far more so than Bran. Now, if Jon can mount a dragon (I do not mean Dany, that is too cliche but will prob happen), then my opinion is subject to change.

[Lord Friendzone]

4 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

exposing the north is actually much better than risking his life and the ones of his men in that mission where they might find dozens or hundred of WW s

and exposing the north is the last thing he would do but he would do it because he has no choice BC he knows the thread is coming.

so both scenarios the ones from the leaks and this that kg has suggested have flaws but show Jon's situation is complicated.

but what I can't believe is that they underestimate Cersei considering Sansa knows what has happened to her (she knows what kind of person is) and obviously they must know the Sept incident because they know she is Queen. They must know she is crazy.

convincing Dany letting her see the threat is more iNtelligent IMO. Let Jorah report her for instance seeing them from a safe distance not hunting it BC it is not necessary and it"s less risky.

They count on Cersei's will to live and self preservation. I know it sounds crazy to people but from their point of view reasonable. But of course they don't know how big of nutcase she is. Taht is why she fooled them and not sending any men up to the North.

They need help because the North is fucked without dragons and other armies. We saw what NK did to wildlings and they can't fight conventionalo warfare against the, only results in more dead bodies=more wights. That's he why moves South to DS and try to convince, engage in politics and wait on DS, while Dany is conductig her bussiness. Dany can't go up to the North, while leaving Cersei operating freely. Clearly she could strike her but civilian casualties would'v been too much of a risk. Sending Jorah as a sign of good will is a good idea, he's a Northerner .

Exposing already weakned North is not a good idea. While waiting for their petty conflicts, he probably grows impatient and more men he gather to his cause, the better. I think where leaks got it wrong or hopefully... is that it's more to convince her main asset/general Jaime, His men or what remains will follow him. Euron saying "fuck it, Iam going to Iron Islands" is stupid. 

[Le Cygne]

And yet, the leaks say Jaime rides off alone. The only time convincing Jaime is mentioned is so he will convince Cersei. It's repeatedly mentioned that the wight hunt is to convince Cersei.

[Lord Friendzone]

3 hours ago, kg1982 said:

Jon and Dany could take a trip North on one of her dragons and he could show her the ice zombies.  As for Cersei, she was never going to ally with them because Dany is as much a threat to her as the ice zombies.  Jon could probably made a deal with someone who was saner than Cersei like Kevan Lannister as long as Dany wasn't around.  (Tywin would have stabbed Jon in the back BTW but in a craftier way than Cersei apparently does.)  However, Dany poses a problem because she wants the Iron Throne and that threatens the Lannisters' power.  That would have been a non-starter even for Kevan Lannister and is even more of a non-starter for an actual crazy person like Cersei.  

And yes, the plot outline again destroys Jon's character by making him one of the dumbest people around.  It does not matter that he is moral or that he is trying to save everyone if his stupidity ends up making things worse.  Just because he is not interested in power doesn't mean that other people are pure as driven snow as well.  A good leader has to learn how to anticipate other people's motives and actions and to play dirty sometimes or he will end up getting people killed.  

Of course NK is gonna parade around with his wights. He's smarter than this, has enormus powers and that is why he can sense Jon and co. If he can influence Bran in his vision, he can human beings in real life.

Plotline does not make Jon one of the dumbest people around, the most reasonable. Only one who sees the bigger picure and that is why he doesn't care about KITN title. Because it is irrelevant, he'll be King of Frozen land. he doesn not want to see his people die. Especially,since he knows after death,there is nothing. Better to kneel than die as a stubborn fool. Torrhen Stark did same smart thing to Aegon, knelt and saved Stark family and the North.

Jon's got pure intentions...sometimes to his fault like with willdings but he dos what he thinks is the best idea. He doesn't want to play in games like others. Just to save people, that's it. He's closest to Ned, naive, honorable men trying to do the right thing. 

It is on everyone's interest not to die and I don't see how that is a bad idea. Cersei is lunatic, but nobody wants to die. Well, he doesn\t know that Cersei is batshit crazy. Why Cersei killed all those people? They were going after her, trying to kill her. From his point of view reasonable to guess Cersei only thing left is that she wants to live. She always did that.

[Le Cygne]

And yet, it says in the leaks that he knows Cersei is batshit crazy.

Here's that: And he [Jon] knows Cersei is mental - he's heard enough about her to know she's completely unreasonable and wants him dead as a traitor.

[Evarei]

The crown was not inherited by Jon so why should he immediatelly step down because Bran aka 3-Eyed Raven 2.0. is back at Winterfell? Jon is an appointed King (just like Robb was), the crown was not passed down from Robb to Bran (with Jon inheriting it in Bran's absence). Robb lost the crown. At the moment of his death, Starks were no longer in power, they were overthrown. 

Why are some people so crazy about Bran as KITN? He is still Lord of Winterfell, and he has another thing going for him anyway.

[Ice Spider]

1 hour ago, kg1982 said:

I am going by the leaks.  She leaves them in the lurch so they get massacred by the ice zombies.

You do realize that Jon isn't privy to the leaks, don't you? I have not seen a leak that suggests Cersei attacks Dany's forces while she is fighting the white walkers, and this is what you stated. Please show me the proof?! It may very well be her intent, but intent does not equal action. For all we know it might be Cersie's undoing.

Regardless, just because all does not go to plan, does not mean there was a better plan.

[Ice Spider]

1 hour ago, kg1982 said:

Actually, we have pointed out different plots and why allying with Cersei makes no sense.  If it works for you, then that is fine but do not attack those of us who have pointed  think it is dumb.  

You have only succeeded in showing us plans which would result in utter and complete failure. Your not even capable of debating the points of why they would fail, that is the very definition of dumb. The best you can do is to try to justify your position by pointing to a leak of how it unfolds, and then extrapolating unknown details into that leak to try to make your case. Again, Jon doesn't have the gift of foresight, his plan (the wight expedition) is the best plan.

[Ice Spider]

1 hour ago, kg1982 said:

Actually, we have pointed out different plots and why allying with Cersei makes no sense.  If it works for you, then that is fine but do not attack those of us who think it is dumb.  

So, it is ok for you to call the writers of the show dumb, yet when someone express's that they think your thoughts on how things should unfold are dumb, you take exception? Really?

[Evarei]

21 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

They count on Cersei's will to live and self preservation. I know it sounds crazy to people but from their point of view reasonable. But of course they don't know how big of nutcase she is. Taht is why she fooled them and not sending any men up to the North.

They know she's evil but they don't know the extent of her stupidity and ignorance. She actually thinks not doing anything and leaving them to fight WWs alone is a good idea. She counts on WWs to wipe her enemies out as if that would make things better for her, it would make things 100 times worse for her. She'd be facing WWs and their army of wights now with the entire realm-worth of new recruits all alone. She'd rather face monsters than make a temporary alliance with her human opponents to try to eliminate the biggest threat.

There's truth to the saying ' the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. And right now, White Walkers are the biggest enemy. The enemy of every citizen of Westeros.

Jon and eventually Daenerys realize that titles and lands mean nothing if you're a King/Queen of the ashes, if you rule over a wasteland. This is something Cersei, Littlefinger and co are too dumb and too self-obsessed to see.

Once again Jon sees the biggest picture, while people around him are closed-minded. But it's he who has been getting called incompetent and stupid. Of course he will get shit for the mission, even though it's reasonable, while Cersei will be lauded for her duplicity.

[Ice Spider]

1 hour ago, kg1982 said:

Why does Jaime with no army matter?  The only use for Jaime is that he can tell Jon and Dany to turn the love boat around and  get their behinds down to KL to finish off his sister.  Which is what they should have been doing in the first place.

Losing the commander and Chief of the Lannister forces is insignificant? We only know Jamie deserts Cersie, there have been no leaks that say what he does afterwards, I have offered some speculation on what might happen. For all we know he might turn back around and put Cersie's head on a spike.

[Ice Spider]

1 hour ago, kg1982 said:

How is Jaime going to kill Cersei if he is nowhere near King's Landing?

You didn't get the context of what I said, I said by Jamie/etc (meaning Jamie or someone else) or that everyone just up and leaves.

[Ice Spider]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I don't know if he died totally or not, but my point is valid regardless of it: Cersei might believe that a wight is an aminal/person who died and was scientifically resurrected like The Mountain

No, it's not a valid point at all, as the Mountain didn't die, therefore he was not resurrected. Do you know what resurrected means? To be brought back from the dead. The mountain was saved from death, although, as qyburn stated, the process "changed him". There is a significant difference in the two.

 

, or else is a person/animal who didn't die but was about to and has been scientifically changed into a wight.

Rotting corpses have most certainly died.

How can this be proof of an army of hundreds or thousands of wws that control them? Anyone who sees it would have to trust in the whole version of Jon, so technically is not a real proof.

Seriously? It means that the old legends are true, not simply tales told by old ladys to make the children behave.

Moreover, there is the fact that Cersei is crazy and inestable and even if she thought they exist, that doesn't mean she would think there are a huge army and that the Wall would cease to exist and thus, this become a real threat for her.

Again:  It means that the old legends are true, not simply tales told by old ladys to make the children behave.

 

Let's not adress another time the point that Jon, Dany and her allies are not taking into consideration that Cersei could put them in a trap whatsoever.

HUH? What? So faced with a choice between what "Might happen (cersei) and what will inevitably WILL happen (the WW invasion) you think it makes cense to ignore the inevitable  for the sake of the possible? Brilliant!

You are confusing two things: how Cersei can be defeated in a rational way and how Cersei could be defeated in an emotional way: Jaime and her forces. 

I am confusing nothing. Sorry. Jon doesn't want to defeat Cersie by killing all of her forces, Jon needs the forces. Jon wants to recruit those forces, what part of this don't you grasp? It is Jon's belief that in order to win the war, he needs everyone...what part of this don't you understand. So, essentially, what your saying is Jon is stupid because he doesn't need the Lannisters and their allies, he only needs Dany's forces, and after the have been dealt heavy loss's defeating the Lannisters first? Really?

 

Both things are not incompatible with the use of good writing (that can be unexpected and shocking too): Dany could do what she has to do trying to defeat her but not actually end up doing it because the crown has a better strategy. She coudl leave to CR too. She could then be defeated in the emotional way you are referring to.

The writing is just fine, some people just can't comprehend it.

 

[kg1982]

33 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Of course NK is gonna parade around with his wights. He's smarter than this, has enormus powers and that is why he can sense Jon and co. If he can influence Bran in his vision, he can human beings in real life.

Plotline does not make Jon one of the dumbest people around, the most reasonable. Only one who sees the bigger picure and that is why he doesn't care about KITN title. Because it is irrelevant, he'll be King of Frozen land. he doesn not want to see his people die. Especially,since he knows after death,there is nothing. Better to kneel than die as a stubborn fool. Torrhen Stark did same smart thing to Aegon, knelt and saved Stark family and the North.

Jon's got pure intentions...sometimes to his fault like with willdings but he dos what he thinks is the best idea. He doesn't want to play in games like others. Just to save people, that's it. He's closest to Ned, naive, honorable men trying to do the right thing. 

It is on everyone's interest not to die and I don't see how that is a bad idea. Cersei is lunatic, but nobody wants to die. Well, he doesn\t know that Cersei is batshit crazy. Why Cersei killed all those people? They were going after her, trying to kill her. From his point of view reasonable to guess Cersei only thing left is that she wants to live. She always did that.

Jon: Jon's intentions do not help anyone if he falls into stupid traps.  Dead people are still dead people regardless of their leaders' intentions.  A moral but inept leader is worse than a corrupt one.  As vindictive as Tywin was, he was at least competent.  I would take Tywin over someome as naive as Ned any day.  Ned's naivety harmed the North.  Jon has to actually show some intelligence and political awareness and the leaks suggest he is still clueless.

 

Kneeling: If he needs to for political support, that is one thing.  What is stupid is giving up his only leverage with Dany because he is infatuated with  her.  He literally gives up his ability to direct the war as he sees fit, work with Dany as an equal, and criticize her if necessary and gets nothing that she wasn't willing to give him in return.  

Cersei: Dany is as big a threat to Cersei as the White Walkers.  If Team Human prevails and Dany goes onto defeat Cersei, then Cersei is still dead.  It is in her interest for both Jon and Dany to be dead and for Cersei to remain queen.  So why wouldn't she double cross them.