Brandon vs. Rhaegar: What if?

[theblackdragonI]

1 minute ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

That's not much.

Oh, another thing: what trial by combat? It was a dude calling out another dude. A regular duel.

(Dunk had to defend himself in a trial by combat, though. And he had to do it on horse, because that suited the prince).

Its still something.

Well it is essentially a trial by combat, Rhaegar stands accused of kidnapping a high born lady. Whatever you want to call it, most 1 to 1 combat is fought on foot. Dunk also fought the Laughing Storm on foot.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

6 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

Its still something.

Well it is essentially a trial by combat, Rhaegar stands accused of kidnapping a high born lady.

He stands accused of nothing. "Come out and die" is not an accusation, it's a challenge. Lyanna wasn't even mentioned.

6 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

Whatever you want to call it, most 1 to 1 combat is fought on foot. Dunk also fought the Laughing Storm on foot.

Well, apparently that suited them. Or, more accurately, that suited the king.

By the way, Dunk has always been a better swordsman than a jouster, so it's still consistent with the "the royalty get to pick the most favorable rules of engagement" pattern.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

On 28/10/2016 at 11:27 AM, theblackdragonI said:

I get the picture from the books however that Rhaegar was a great swordsman while Brandon was a brilliant one. The only way I can see Rhaegar winning is by him purposely making Brandon angry, which he seems to honourable to do? They most likely would fight on foot in a trial by combat.

I agree. I really have a hard time believing that anyone could have beat Robert in his prime really. Bar maybe Arthur Dayne and Barristan.

Along with prime bob those 2 would be part of a handfull of equals in asoiaf history, legendary warriors that can win/lose against eachother by the smallest detail

The dunk vs lyonel duel is interesting because lyonel is conidered the best of his age and dunk is at the time a rising star in the kg, but at the time of the duel lyonel must be 45+ years old so...

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

On October 28, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Nope, Robert has legendary prowess by word of god, tons of single combat feats including sword\warhammer/horseback kills, insane genetics, character quotes puting him in the highest level posible...

You are naming a legendary warrior with no superiors (few equals) in single combat value, a one trick pony... c'mon bro

I don't think Robert was bigger, stronger, more crazy or aggressive, more intimidating, more widely feared, or killed more people than Gregor Clegane. Nor do I find him that much more intelligent than the Mountain either. But, a much smaller, weaker, more lightly armored, yet faster, more skilled, and much more intelligent Oberyn Martell tore his ass up, until his hubris and desire for revenge got his face smashed. Oberyn was good, but not on the level of Arthur, Selmy, or Jaime, and he beat a bigger, stronger man than Robert, one on one. Too much hype for Robert who was, in my opinion, always getting injured, drunk, and whoring. And this was all before, during, and after the Rebellion. 

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

29 minutes ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

I don't think Robert was bigger, stronger, more crazy or aggressive, more intimidating, more widely feared, or killed more people than Gregor Clegane. Nor do I find him that much more intelligent than the Mountain either. But, a much smaller, weaker, more lightly armored, yet faster, more skilled, and much more intelligent Oberyn Martell tore his ass up, until his hubris and desire for revenge got his face smashed. Oberyn was good, but not on the level of Arthur, Selmy, or Jaime, and he beat a bigger, stronger man than Robert, one on one. Too much hype for Robert who was, in my opinion, always getting injured, drunk, and whoring. And this was all before, during, and after the Rebellion. 

George and the books say the contrary BBS, the only thing bob and gregor had in common was freakinsh power and reach, apart fron that they are 2 distinct fighters in ability and prowess

- legendary prowess by word of god

- more 1v1 kills against known warriors than every one except selmy who had a 50 year carreer

- all genetic advantages for armoured combat

- dumb? the guy was one of the greatest commanders in asoiaf history, so no, far from it, he has one of the highest marshal IQ's in the books

- Ned considers robert a peerless warrior after fighting and killing dayne

- i don't know why i'm boring you with this, it's in the books, folks can call him a bad king, person, father but a warrior/commander?? short of legendary would be slaping grrm in the face bro

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

44 minutes ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

George and the books say the contrary BBS, the only thing bob and gregor had in common was freakinsh power and reach, apart fron that they are 2 distinct fighters in ability and prowess

 

I think they are very much the same in most ways concerning fighting ability. They share the same strengths and the same weaknesses, but the Mountain That Rides at least did so in the joust in tourneys, making him at least a little more versatile and well rounded.

- legendary prowess by word of god

 

True. But I find this god to be falible. I don't think everything he says is the truth, like many others swear he does. He has very good reasons to say some of the shit that he says, I don't blame him. 

- more 1v1 kills against known warriors than every one except selmy who had a 50 year carreer

 

Really? I'll have to check that out. He did well for himself, but I can only remember a few.

- all genetic advantages for armoured combat

 

Genetic advantages? Robert was no doubt a physical specimen to behold, in his prime. Not everybody who's built like that goes to fat like he did. He has two brothers, same mom same dad, and neither Renly nor Stanis are anything special with a sword or a lance or a war hammer. Stanis never fights that I recall, Renly gets his ass wooped in the lists. Donal Noye would confirm this. 

- dumb? the guy was one of the greatest commanders in asoiaf history, so no, far from it, he has one of the highest marshal IQ's in the books

 

The man had no head for figures, counting coppers, or any administration. He was cuckolded by one of his Kingsguard with 3 kids that were obviously not his. Everybody knew but him. I was under the impression that Jon Arrn and Ned were the brains of the operation during the Rebellion. Do you really think he went and strategized their next move following a battle? Or went and got ossified and banged 3 or 4 whores? 

- Ned considers robert a peerless warrior after fighting and killing dayne

 

Ned is on Robert's dick, hard. He worships the ground the man walks on? Why? I don't know, I don't get it. He wasn't a very good friend back to Ned. They had many fallouts.

- i don't know why i'm boring you with this, it's in the books, folks can call him a bad king, person, father but a warrior/commander?? short of legendary would be slaping grrm in the face bro

 

 

[theblackdragonI]

31 minutes ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

 

The difference between Robert and Gregor, is Robert is an intelligent, brilliant fighter. Gregor is just freakishly strong and a big brute. He has no tactics when it comes to fighting other than using brute force, he doesn't learn from his mistakes. Robert on the other hand is quick, strong and a smart fighter. The differences between the two is best measured in peoples opinions of them. Everyone thinks Gregor is a freakish brute, but Robert is widely regarded as a great warrior even by his enemies. As for your point about Gregor riding, we know Robert fought capably on horseback because he killed Rhaegar while both were on horseback in the middle of a river, no easy feat for just a dumb brute.

Everything George says is the truth though. Whatever he says at the time can be taken for canon because it comes from him.

I think by genetic advantages @Laughing Storm Reborn meant Robert comes from a long line of warriors. The Baratheons are known for their martial abilities, e.g. Orys Baratheon and Lyonel Baratheon.

Hmm, while he wasn't smart when compared to others in the series such as Littlefinger, Tyrion etc. You can't deny Robert was a brilliant strategist. He only ever lost one battle and that was to Randyll Tarley, and he didn't even really lose he had the good sense to withdraw against a much larger host. He won three battles in one day, crushed the loyalists at the Trident and smashed the Greyjoys. While you're right about him not having a good mind for ruling, I think he really was a brilliant general. I actually do think he strategized the rebels campaign. I can't remember the quote but there's a line where Stannis says something along the lines of Robert would have force marched through the night and smashed the enemy (badly paraphrased). 

Ned's not the only one though, Robert is widely regarded as a brilliant warrior, in his youth anyway. I understand where you're coming from though, Robert is kind of overhyped in the books a lot but I honestly think he was as good a warrior as he's made out to be. Purely because he's like a tragic figure cause wars the only thing he was ever good at.

 

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

30 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

The difference between Robert and Gregor, is Robert is an intelligent, brilliant fighter. Gregor is just freakishly strong and a big brute. He has no tactics when it comes to fighting other than using brute force, he doesn't learn from his mistakes. Robert on the other hand is quick, strong and a smart fighter. The differences between the two is best measured in peoples opinions of them. Everyone thinks Gregor is a freakish brute, but Robert is widely regarded as a great warrior even by his enemies. As for your point about Gregor riding, we know Robert fought capably on horseback because he killed Rhaegar while both were on horseback in the middle of a river, no easy feat for just a dumb brute.

Everything George says is the truth though. Whatever he says at the time can be taken for canon because it comes from him.

I think by genetic advantages @Laughing Storm Reborn meant Robert comes from a long line of warriors. The Baratheons are known for their martial abilities, e.g. Orys Baratheon and Lyonel Baratheon.

Hmm, while he wasn't smart when compared to others in the series such as Littlefinger, Tyrion etc. You can't deny Robert was a brilliant strategist. He only ever lost one battle and that was to Randyll Tarley, and he didn't even really lose he had the good sense to withdraw against a much larger host. He won three battles in one day, crushed the loyalists at the Trident and smashed the Greyjoys. While you're right about him not having a good mind for ruling, I think he really was a brilliant general. I actually do think he strategized the rebels campaign. I can't remember the quote but there's a line where Stannis says something along the lines of Robert would have force marched through the night and smashed the enemy (badly paraphrased). 

Ned's not the only one though, Robert is widely regarded as a brilliant warrior, in his youth anyway. I understand where you're coming from though, Robert is kind of overhyped in the books a lot but I honestly think he was as good a warrior as he's made out to be. Purely because he's like a tragic figure cause wars the only thing he was ever good at.

 

I don't know how many rereads I've done, but not once did I ever correlate Robert Baratheon with intelligence. He was openhanded, made friends of his enemies, and acted boldly and sometimes unconventionally and aggressive in battles. That's the best I could possibly say about that character. He did not display intelligence in how he refused wise council from those who held him to heart and was oblivious to to everything going on around him. He was a tremendous fighter, warrior, brute with an oversized war hammer, but being instinctive in battle and being intelligent in everything else are two very different things.

[theblackdragonI]

2 minutes ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

I don't know how many rereads I've done, but not once did I ever correlate Robert Baratheon with intelligence. He was openhanded, made friends of his enemies, and acted boldly and sometimes unconventionally and aggressive in battles. That's the best I could possibly say about that character. He did not display intelligence in how he refused wise council from those who held him to heart and was oblivious to to everything going on around him. He was a tremendous fighter, warrior, brute with an oversized war hammer, but being instinctive in battle and being intelligent in everything else are two very different things.

I realise that. I never claimed Robert was intelligent in everything, only that he was in war. Robert knew how to wage war better than near anyone else in Westeros (Randyll Tarly).. I said he is a brilliant general with a mind for war, when I said he was intelligent I meant it as a fighter. In the way that he is able to defeat his foes despite the odds being against him and being able to bind his men together. I would consider that as martial intelligence. I don't think Robert is an intelligent man outside of battle, I was merely talking about his martial prowess which really is only rivalled by a very small number. 

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

20 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

I realise that. I never claimed Robert was intelligent in everything, only that he was in war. Robert knew how to wage war better than near anyone else in Westeros (Randyll Tarly).. I said he is a brilliant general with a mind for war, when I said he was intelligent I meant it as a fighter. In the way that he is able to defeat his foes despite the odds being against him and being able to bind his men together. I would consider that as martial intelligence. I don't think Robert is an intelligent man outside of battle, I was merely talking about his martial prowess which really is only rivalled by a very small number. 

Even still, I never attributed top tier military mindedness to him either. He shone his brightest in battle, this is true. But for strategical thought and execution, I think Stanis is above him in such respect, along with Tywin, Tarly, Doran, maybe Euron. Robert wasn't a thinker, he was a doer, of what he wanted, when he wanted, and that brought him to an early and embarrassing grave.

[theblackdragonI]

13 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

Even still, I never attributed top tier military mindedness to him either. He shone his brightest in battle, this is true. But for strategical thought and execution, I think Stanis is above him in such respect, along with Tywin, Tarly, Doran, maybe Euron. Robert wasn't a thinker, he was a doer, of what he wanted, when he wanted, and that brought him to an early and embarrassing grave.

He's won more battles than any of those you just listed. Doran's never seen a battle or commanded one in any way. Euron is a raider, Tarly is a brilliant commander and Tywin is competent, he completely underestimated Robb and could well have lost the war if it wasn't for his political capabilities. Bar the War of the FIve Kings, he sacked a defenceless city, crushed a minor rebellion with overwhelming numbers and thats about it. He did allow his fleet to be burned by the Greyjoys in a plan made up by Euron I think which is interesting.

I would say Robert is a better military commander than all of them bar Tarly. Euron might be able to bait him into some trap but in a pitched land battle Robert would crush him. Doran is too cautious and has no military skill that we know of, Tywin is too orthodox. Stannis is a brilliant military commander there's no denying that, but he's constantly compared in an unfavourable way to Robert's superior martial skill.

Robert was able to crush three armies in a day, escape an encirclement by massive armies (Reach, Crownlands, Dorne) to link up with his allies. He then led these allies to a huge victory and killed the crown prince in battle. He also crushed the Iron Born on their main island and sacked their capital. I mean whatever else about his failings, his military record is one of the best in Westeros.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

2 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

He's won more battles than any of those you just listed. Doran's never seen a battle or commanded one in any way. Euron is a raider, Tarly is a brilliant commander and Tywin is competent, he completely underestimated Robb and could well have lost the war if it wasn't for his political capabilities. Bar the War of the FIve Kings, he sacked a defenceless city, crushed a minor rebellion with overwhelming numbers and thats about it. He did allow his fleet to be burned by the Greyjoys in a plan made up by Euron I think which is interesting.

I would say Robert is a better military commander than all of them bar Tarly. Euron might be able to bait him into some trap but in a pitched land battle Robert would crush him. Doran is too cautious and has no military skill that we know of, Tywin is too orthodox. Stannis is a brilliant military commander there's no denying that, but he's constantly compared in an unfavourable way to Robert's superior martial skill.

Robert was able to crush three armies in a day, escape an encirclement by massive armies (Reach, Crownlands, Dorne) to link up with his allies. He then led these allies to a huge victory and killed the crown prince in battle. He also crushed the Iron Born on their main island and sacked their capital. I mean whatever else about his failings, his military record is one of the best in Westeros.

Wow, you're a regular Edric Storm. It's said Robert should've been born Dothraki and that he's the only one dumb enough to face them in the open field. I don't know where you got all your info, it's not in the main five books, and it's grossly overestimating. I'm assuming TWOIAF? The book written specifically for Robert? It's good to be the king, it seems. 

[WSmith84]

23 minutes ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

Wow, you're a regular Edric Storm. It's said Robert should've been born Dothraki and that he's the only one dumb enough to face them in the open field. I don't know where you got all your info, it's not in the main five books, and it's grossly overestimating. I'm assuming TWOIAF? The book written specifically for Robert? It's good to be the king, it seems. 

The only one who thinks Robert is dumb enough to face the Dothraki in the open field is Jorah. And considering Jorah's rather, shall we say, generous estimation of the capabilities of the Dothraki in warfare (sure Jorah, unarmoured horse archers would pose a real threat to the armies we actually see in Westeros, sure) I'd take his estimation of Robert's capablities with a barrel of salt.

Everyone in the series that discusses it (Stannis, Stannis' men, Ned, Cat, just as examples) mention that Robert is a brilliant general. His track record is also one of the best (if not the actual best) that we have in the series. What general actually comes close to Robert's record?

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

18 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

 

- word of god is law for me BBS, that said every person can construct their reality,and sometimes we should take things at face value, sure folks overestimated bob as a king or as a person, but his marshal prowess in duels and commanding positions is what it is, legendary, if folks downgrade it then the other warriors get even more downgraded because they have less feats (except barri who fought 30 more years) and less accolades from george himself (apart from other legends in bob's level like selmy, dayne and even jaime)

- apart from cannon foder in his tons of battles in gulltown, summerhallx3, ashford, bells (while wounded), trident and pyke... named warriors are all skilled if not they wouldn´t be named, Grafton, Fell, Mooton, Jon Con (who killed denys arryn, the best the vale had to offer and wounded hoster tully, and was chosen as hand to fight robert ahead of any kg at the time, to match quote "robert's youth and vigor") almost got killed by a wounded robert with a blade, raeghar (on horseback)... only the 65 year old selmy has a list this extensive...

- as a commander he won gulltown (vanguard commander), summerhallx3 as overall commander, trident as overall commander and pyke as overall commander... tough list to follow, lost at ashford (reach territory) against tarly who had mace's 40k aproaching (not to mention bob went there with the remnants of summerhall, not erben 2/4 of the stormlands army since part of it were loyalist or dead in summerhall)...hard act to follow aswell

- ned could be bias towards bob but he considered dayne the best knight (robert was a knight aswell, hardly bias but a knight is also chivalry and honour and bob lacked some of both) while he thought bob the better warrior, he fough/sparred both, he would know

- the guy is 6'6 (not a tree as clegane), fast proven by his thousand boar hunting technique) ,all muscle, legendary prowess, uses a warhammer (in grrm's not a blog he says that he knows very well a warhammer with spikes was an extremely deadly weapon)... not counting skill it would be a nightmare to win against him, add his prowess and yep, a confirmed legendary tier killer

again, folks can question bob's ability to rule or his moral values, that are sometimes overhyped by characters in the books who admire the blue eyed terminator young stormlord of old times, but his ability as a warrior and commander is to be taken at face value it's established by the author, the books and credible characters...

the guy is essently a prototipe of "the warrior" who canot do anything else... like it's said in grrm's official site, a paragon of a man (on the battlefield of course, not in life)

it's the truth (not forcing it here, every person has their mindset), but it is what it is imo

 

 

[theblackdragonI]

47 minutes ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

Wow, you're a regular Edric Storm. It's said Robert should've been born Dothraki and that he's the only one dumb enough to face them in the open field. I don't know where you got all your info, it's not in the main five books, and it's grossly overestimating. I'm assuming TWOIAF? The book written specifically for Robert? It's good to be the king, it seems. 

I really am not believe me. I know Robert has many many faults, I just think he was a brilliant soldier and general and to deny that is just foolish. Everyone knows he was a bad king, but that doesn't in any way diminish his previous achievements on the battlefield. As was said above, that quote is from a heavily biased Jorah. To be honest, this is just my opinion but I think Robert at the head of a united Westerosi army would absolutely annihilate any Dothraki khal. What info are you referring to specifically? All of his achievements I mentioned above are fact. He did win three battles in a day at Summerhall, withdrew from Tarly at Ashford, escaped encirclement from the royalist forces, fight the Battle of the Bells and finally lead the rebels to victory at the Trident. He also was in charge of the royal army that besieged Pyke. I don't see any overestimation there, more statements of fact.

[Protagoras]

I think Rhaegar would have tried to talk to Brandon and would have gotten himself killed, or maybe he had been smart enough to put Brandon in a prison cell or something. It won´t matter - Aerys isn´t sane and Rhaegar has already done his Princip-move. Brandon would die regardless.

And I am on the side of those that consider Rhaegar overrated. He can obviously joust and has some skill with a sword, yet he partook in one war, which he lost, and didn´t start training until lateish. And of course everyone say the hier to a king is a noted, famous warrior if he show even some skill. Just because he can beat the "Neds" doesn´t mean he can beat the more trained, skillful swordsmen. And Brandon is described like he at least belong to that second tier with people like Bronn, Brienne, the Tyrell brothers and Victarion.

[Aetta]

On 10/28/2016 at 7:51 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

How the hell do you guys get the data to even attempt to compare Brandon's and Rhaegar's swordsmanship? Seriously, there's a couple vague statements, their record next to nonexistent. And you're almost assigning them their exact midichlorian count.

Also, I see absolutely no reason to assume that the fight, should there be a fight, would be fought on foot with swords. If "The Hedge Knight" taught us anything, then it's that when it comes to duels, the royal family makes the rules.

Right, this.  I am really confused how, especially with Brandon on whom you have so little data about this subject, Brandon is suddenly the next Barry Selmy.  Lets not even get into the fact that finger one would not have been laid on the Crown Prince with white/gold cloaks around, nor would Rickard have let his son go there-Thus chasing Brandon's dumb ass down to Kings Landing-to stop him.

There also seems to be a tendency, I see, to put Brandon in the badass wildman category and Rhaegar in the dainty prince role.  Maybe Brandon was the one with the Napoleon complex and Rhaegar was the one who reserved himself but could whoop up on that ass.

Or maybe they both sucked. WTH?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

On 28.10.2016 at 2:21 PM, theblackdragonI said:

Its still something.

(I was grepping the books for another thread, and accidentally came up with this...)

If we're using spoken opinions as evidence, then Ray-ray was also, once, called "a puissant warrior, a true heir to Aegon the Conqueror" (when he was about to enter the lists at Harrenhal). Or at least that's what Yandel reports. Which makes at least as good a boast as "the swordsman in the family" (no, let's be serious: a much better boast).