Patchface Lonmouth?

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

Right - no - this IS being willful.  You have a pet theory about red mouths, which is fine and interesting, but as a result you're fundamentally opposed to this very interesting (and original) connection purely because it would suggest a different reading of Patchface's red mouth than one you came up with.

Wow, thanks (not). Perhaps read my last post to YOVMO himself, where I explicitly explain why I'm "opposed" to it, and where I don't even mention one red mouth at all. YOVMO makes interesting contributions for a while, but that doesn't have to mean I have to agree with everything, or that I am forbidden to offer an alternative interpretation. Pet theory...

[YOVMO]

24 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Missing: Occam's Razor

I am not sure how you can apply that here. You have a specific reference to skulls and red lips regarding patchface from Mel. Are you saying that the simplest answer is that grrm wrote a line where Mel happens to mention patchface being surrounded by skulls and red lips because he slipped on a banana peel and accidently landed on his keyboard and typed it out? Ok, I get Sunray's point that skulls have meant death as have red mouths -- separately. That said, I don't think it is a huge jump in logic to say that patchface *might* be a Lonmouth. Granted, my larger scenario I tried to play out is way out of whack. But are you really willing to say that despite Mel saying that she sees skulls and red lips around patchface that he is either 100% not a long lost lonmouth or is it that regardless of whether or not he is it simply doesn't matter that this prophetic fool happens to be from a noble westerosi house sworn to house Baratheon? 

[YOVMO]

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

YOVMO makes interesting contributions for a while, but that doesn't have to mean I have to agree with everything, or that I am forbidden to offer an alternative interpretation.

agreed! I put this out here specifically because it was something I saw and I wanted peoples opinions good or bad. I wasn't looking for an echo chamber. At the very least I think no one will argue that the imagery of skulls and red mouths is interesting. Now, for what reason it is interesting and what that means, if anything, in the long run....well, playing around with those ideas is why we are here right? I mean, if not I should just pack it in and pay attention to my job....and 7 save me if I have to do that.

[YOVMO]

29 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I know you are working on possibilities, and I'm sorry if I seem to challenge you so strongly on it,

again, and to clairify....please...no sorry is necessary. This is the whole point! ANd I thank you for taking the time to add your contribution.

[YOVMO]

26 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

The fact that the sigil of House Lonmoth is LITERALLY red lips and skulls and we have a description of EXACTLY that is probably not an accident

And this, I believe, is the crux of my larger point. I think it is totally impossible to say that there is simply a 100% chance that this connection is a total non entity and means nothing. I can buy that it MIGHT mean nothing. I can buy that it MIGHT even be grrm have a bit of fun with his readers and making us spin our wheels. What I can't buy into is that the description Mel gives of patch face in her vision is literally the exact sigil of House Lonmouth and there is absolutely NO CHANCE in the 7 hells that it is in any way shape or form relevant and there is no way in the world that Patchface doesn't have some form of, yet to be revealed, Lonmouth connection. No. That is just too far.

[cgrav]

I don't see why some remote relation to characters would preclude other ideas that affect Patchface. 

I'm totally on board with the red mouth thing foreshadowing violent death, though I'm not sure why Patchface would show up in visions that are otherwise concerned with stuff like the impending apocalypse. Do his prophetic powers make him a potent sacrifice? Is he a proxy for Shireen's fate? 

And I don't think the skulls represent death in themselves. Going with the Mythical Astronomy symbols, the skulls represent a destructive, world-ending force: the meteors that fell after the ancient comet impact. Patchface appearing in flames with skulls tells me he has some connection to the big events yet to come. We reasonably assume that Jon will be involved in that plot line, so the skulls around him make sense. But what could Patchface possibly do? 

Thinking about this, my first guess is that Patchface will play some central role in resurrecting Jon, maybe through a final death a la Beric D. Antlers do tend to symbolize a sacrificial death. 

And tinfoil just for fun: maybe Bran will use Patchface to communicate with Jon or Mel. If Patchy goes to the Nightfort and sees that Weirwood growing up from the well, Bran may sense him. Or the fool could go talk prophecy with the Black Gate.

[estermonty python]

23 minutes ago, cgrav said:

And I don't think the skulls represent death in themselves. Going with the Mythical Astronomy symbols, the skulls represent a destructive, world-ending force: the meteors that fell after the ancient comet impact. Patchface appearing in flames with skulls tells me he has some connection to the big events yet to come. We reasonably assume that Jon will be involved in that plot line, so the skulls around him make sense. But what could Patchface possibly do?

I think this is a really good point, but I would counter that in ASOIAF heraldry the skull basically only represents death.  We see it in three sigils:

Lonmouth: red lips and skulls - meaning choose one or the other, friendship or death.

Qoherys: skulls and flames - representing the fiery death of House Hoare

Manwoody: crowned skull - representing the King of the Reach killed by the founder of the House.

That said, @sweetsunray makes a good point that the symbolism in Mel's visions aren't necessarily (or even usually) heraldic in any way.  So, for instance, the skulls around Jon could represent the bridge of skulls, or the Golden Company, or something no one has even thought of yet! 

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

I don't see why some remote relation to characters would preclude other ideas that affect Patchface. 

I'm totally on board with the red mouth thing foreshadowing violent death, though I'm not sure why Patchface would show up in visions that are otherwise concerned with stuff like the impending apocalypse. Do his prophetic powers make him a potent sacrifice? Is he a proxy for Shireen's fate? 

And I don't think the skulls represent death in themselves. Going with the Mythical Astronomy symbols, the skulls represent a destructive, world-ending force: the meteors that fell after the ancient comet impact. Patchface appearing in flames with skulls tells me he has some connection to the big events yet to come. We reasonably assume that Jon will be involved in that plot line, so the skulls around him make sense. But what could Patchface possibly do? 

Thinking about this, my first guess is that Patchface will play some central role in resurrecting Jon, maybe through a final death a la Beric D. Antlers do tend to symbolize a sacrificial death. 

And tinfoil just for fun: maybe Bran will use Patchface to communicate with Jon or Mel. If Patchy goes to the Nightfort and sees that Weirwood growing up from the well, Bran may sense him. Or the fool could go talk prophecy with the Black Gate.

@cgrav, I've been seeing a connection to the bear stuff I've been analysing and proposing and @LmL 's Mythological astronomy symbolism, both for the Blood Emperor/AA stuff as well as the Greenseer essays, for a while, especially since a lot of bear revenge scenes occur before, during or after Mythological Astronomy scenes. He had been asking me for a while how the stag might be involved, and then Emmalaure gave that stag background from her book source. I have Irish and Celtic mythological books, regarding Cernunnos and how he's important for the Wild Hunt, but I had no link for carnaval, nor the story of the loss of the antlers with the poison of the snake-woman, nor of the Harlequin (fool) figure as a Wild Hunt stag dancer. And we both concluded that Patchface is the key figure that puts Mythological Astronomy together with the Bear mythology. He's the necessary "patchwork" to put both patterns and echoes together and on top of that he's the key figure for the subaquatic with the subterranean. He unites Chthonic Cycle, Bear-Maiden mythology and Mythical astronomy all in one figure.

So, on the one hand we have apocalyptic imagery that Mel sees of Patchface. We have his death bells tolling and his underworldly prophecies (his shadows dancing, shorlty after shadows danced in Dany's tent, and of course Mel's shadow babies.

In many ways he is sort of Mel's parallel or counterpart. She is all about fire, and she uses the poisoning of Cressen with the antler helm to prove her power to the people at the feast. She sees things but often misinterpretes it. And she is also one who tries to literally re-enact prophecies (with her burning of the 7, the false lightbringer - aka burned and glamored sword - and thinking that if she burns Edric Storm, the stone dragons of Dragonstone will become dragons for real). 

Patchface is all about water. While fire and ice are in some way each other's opposites, water is indeed in opposition of fire. Solely wildfire can burn on water. He can see things just like Mel sees things, and he sees things very correctly, but everybody thinks he's just saying things to be the fool or because he lost his marbles. Unlike Mel he does not try to interprete it. He tells it like he sees it.

If the stag is like the bear in functionality - hunted, ritually killed, but also a fertility symbol, possible savior of maidens, in conflict with a snake-woman with Mel as part of the first name, then yes, Patchface is crucial with regards the events of Mel and Shireen. I think he will be her undoing. She gained influence with the Cressen poisoning (while Cressen wore the antler helm), and I think Patchface's actions or whatever happens to him, will be her fall from grace. I think we can all agree that Patchface cares enormously for Shireen.

[Light a wight tonight]

3 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I am not sure how you can apply that here. You have a specific reference to skulls and red lips regarding patchface from Mel. Are you saying that the simplest answer is that grrm wrote a line where Mel happens to mention patchface being surrounded by skulls and red lips because he slipped on a banana peel and accidently landed on his keyboard and typed it out? Ok, I get Sunray's point that skulls have meant death as have red mouths -- separately. That said, I don't think it is a huge jump in logic to say that patchface *might* be a Lonmouth. Granted, my larger scenario I tried to play out is way out of whack. But are you really willing to say that despite Mel saying that she sees skulls and red lips around patchface that he is either 100% not a long lost lonmouth or is it that regardless of whether or not he is it simply doesn't matter that this prophetic fool happens to be from a noble westerosi house sworn to house Baratheon? 

You start out with being unsatisfied with what the text seems to say and build a whole construct to justify something else, involving all sorts of "if" situations involving events and people way out of the story's present timeline. If that's not a prime example of unnecessary complexity I'd be very surprised.

[Isobel Harper]

9 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I think you're making one jump too far for the sigil. Lonmouth is skulls and kisses, not lips red with blood.

Imo it means that Patchface is actually a dead person, a resurrected dead person. Several times George uses a blood red smile or mouth as a foreshadowing to someone who's going to die.

Robert's laughter and smiling is supposed to be a symbol of life, but when he's brought back to the Red Keep after his encounter with the boar, he smiles a red smile, as his teeth and lips are red with blood.

Yoren eats sourleaf, which makes his spit and thus teeth and lips look like blood. Initially we get but a short mention of it, but in the chapter where they near the Gods Eye and they picked up Weasel from the charred village and the one-armed woman who dies after, Arya notices how it looks like he froths blood from his mouth. The next chapter they end up at the Holdfast attacked by Ser Amory and Yoren dies.

Brienne meets the pious dwarf in Duskendale who tells her of Nimble Dick who fooled a fool (Shagwell). The pious dwarf eats sourleaf, and he gives her a "red smile". He claims to go on his way to King's Landing. And based on the description of the bulbous nose, the pious dwarf ends up with a chopped off head by men hoping to get the reward Cersei gives for bringing her Tyrion's head. The men claim the dwarf said he was a sparrow, and the head has a bulbous nose like the pious dwarf.

Meanwhile Mel also sees skulls surround Jon, and we know his sigil has nothing to do with skulls. Hence, the skulls and blood red lips imply that Patchface is either a goner or is actually already dead. And his backstory of the drowning does include the possibility of having died. And his bells ringing all the time is also death related. So far, we haven't heard wedding bells being rung in the books, but we often had bells ringing for dead characters: when Robert died, when Ned was to be executed, when Joffrey died, etc.

 

I agree with you here, although I interpret PF's "red lips" as symbolism for him predicting people's deaths, not his own. 

5 hours ago, estermonty python said:

Right - no - this IS being willful.  You have a pet theory about red mouths, which is fine and interesting, but as a result you're fundamentally opposed to this very interesting (and original) connection purely because it would suggest a different reading of Patchface's red mouth than one you came up with.  The fact that the sigil of House Lonmoth is LITERALLY red lips and skulls and we have a description of EXACTLY that is probably not an accident.  

As far as Jon and his skulls go, there's already been one fight at the Bridge of Skulls, and I believe they're gearing up for another.  Jon could play a role in that, or that could end up being some sort of path used by the Others - we just don't know yet.  It also could potentially be a reference to House Qoherys, the first Targ-approved Lords of Harrenhall, whose sigil is skulls and flames, but I find that much less likely.

 

So, we have a reoccurring them of skulls, kisses, fire, and resurrection.  Lem/RL serves under Lady Stoneheart, a woman with "kissed with fire" hair who has been resurrected (albeit indirectly) by the kiss of a red priest, who sees visions in flames.  Additionally, I theorize that House Lothston and Whent are descended from House Qoherys in some way,  which is why they survived the curse.  (I also believe The Curse of Harrenhal stems from Quenton Qoherys, not House Hoare, but I'm getting too off topic.)

PF was resurrected in some way after being lost/drowned at sea for three days.  (Side note : Jesus was also "dead" for three days.)  You've noted the skulls and kisses connection in the OP.  Like a red priest, he makes prophecies.  The only thing lacking is the FIRE.  As sweetsunray notes, "under the sea" is another sort of Underworld.  I suppose what "fire" is to a red priest, "water" (or rather sea) is to PF? 

With regard to sweetsunray's comments on this thread as a whole, well...  Don't forget that there are often layers of meaning in scenes/details.  Either 1. Sweetsunray is correct or 2. You are both correct (to an extent) because PF's "red lips" could have multiple meanings.  I KNOW that LML will find imagery of comets, moon(s) in these images somehow.  That doesn't negate your theory or sweetsunray's.  Again, layers of meaning. 

Lagniappe: wouldn't it be fun if "born amidst salt and smoke" means that Jon Snow (if resurrected) will receive the "resurrection kiss" from both Mel and PF?

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

You start out with being unsatisfied with what the text seems to say and build a whole construct to justify something else, involving all sorts of "if" situations involving events and people way out of the story's present timeline. If that's not a prime example of unnecessary complexity I'd be very surprised.

I started out by saying that Mel mentions skulls and red mouths (literally the sigil of house lonmouth) wrt patchface and saying that that signals a possibility that patchface might be connected to that house. I followed up with one basic theory which I acknowledge is probably off and then ask for help in either refining or otherwise explaining what significance a patchface house Lonmouth connection would be. So again, am I to take your glib dissmissiveness as a sign that a literal mention of Lonmouths sigil with regard to Patchface is meaningless or that there is a connection but the connection doesn't matter?

[sweetsunray]

14 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

although I interpret PF's "red lips" as symbolism fir him predicting people's deaths, not his own.

I like that interpretation. Yes, that could very well work, because usually George shows several red mouths, hammering on the sourleaf for several paragraphs (and is somewhat similar to the red stallions). Emmon Frey's sourleaf mouth is mentioend numerous times in 3 chapters (as is Yoren's). But Arya for example eats sourleaf at the end of the first chapter of aCoK, after Yoren gave her three wahcks on the butt over he beating up Hot Pie. She notices her spit has the color of blood because of it and how her mouth becomes "numb". There is no mention after anymore of Arya consuming sourleaf, but a part of her seems to die on that road (becoming the mouse) and she is numbed by the horrors she witnesses, projecting the little scared, crying girl that she must partly be onto Weasel.

ETA: what if it means that he'll predict Mel's death? Maybe that's why she's so horrified by him?

[Isobel Harper]

41 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I like that interpretation. Yes, that could very well work, because usually George shows several red mouths, hammering on the sourleaf for several paragraphs (and is somewhat similar to the red stallions). Emmon Frey's sourleaf mouth is mentioend numerous times in 3 chapters (as is Yoren's). But Arya for example eats sourleaf at the end of the first chapter of aCoK, after Yoren gave her three wahcks on the butt over he beating up Hot Pie. She notices her spit has the color of blood because of it and how her mouth becomes "numb". There is no mention after anymore of Arya consuming sourleaf, but a part of her seems to die on that road (becoming the mouse) and she is numbed by the horrors she witnesses, projecting the little scared, crying girl that she must partly be onto Weasel.

ETA: what if it means that he'll predict Mel's death? Maybe that's why she's so horrified by him?

Hmm, possibly.  If Mel, does give Jon the "resurrection kiss" will the kiss be like Thoros giving it Beric, or Beric, to Catelyn Stark?  Would she survive the process or give her own life? 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

9 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Joffrey Lonmouth was nicknamed the Knight of Kisses. GoHH mentions skulls in relation to Lem and wants a kiss from Lem Lemoncloak all the time. This is one of the reasons why Lem Lemoncloak is believed to be Richard Lonmouth by many readers: https://ladygwynhyfvar.wordpress.com/2014/02/03/lemuncloaked-the-true-identity-of-lem-lemoncloak/

Here are the passages I'm alluding with regards "with blood"... and it has nothing to do with being willful.

=> Robert is never seen again, as he was dead.

=> hung by Lannisters

=> killed in the next chapter by Ser Amory's gang

=> killed at the Fist and so are most of the brothers

=> ends up beheaded and taken to Cersei for reward

 

 

 

Emmon Frey is so very very dead!!!!

 

 

 

Unfortunately so would be Marwyn. ANd I'd say Snatch is a dead man walking as well

 

Anyway, so far we've had bloody mouths for Robert (real blood), Masha, Yoren, Chett (well we don't see his bloody looking mouth because it's from his POV, but we know he should have one), and the pious dwarf. That's 5. 

Now, I do think Patchface is a very special person, but for entirely different reasons than OP.

 

I love that you found this. Chewing is obviously bad.

Bennis from D&E also chewed. If I recall correctly he ran away at the end of Sworn Sword. 

[estermonty python]

On 10/28/2016 at 9:17 PM, Isobel Harper said:

Additionally, I theorize that House Lothston and Whent are descended from House Qoherys in some way,  which is why they survived the curse.  (I also believe The Curse of Harrenhal stems from Quenton Qoherys, not House Hoare, but I'm getting too off topic.)

Probably just about every house in the riverlands is related to House Qoherys save the Tullys, no?  Bedding every bride in the Riverlands before her husband will have that effect.

Not for nothing, but House Qoherys was from Valyria - so technically, just about every House in the Riverlands would have a drop of Valyrian blood, making every goddamn one of them qualified to at least try to ride a dragon... 

[Isobel Harper]

2 hours ago, estermonty python said:

Probably just about every house in the riverlands is related to House Qoherys save the Tullys, no?  Bedding every bride in the Riverlands before her husband will have that effect.

Not for nothing, but House Qoherys was from Valyria - so technically, just about every House in the Riverlands would have a drop of Valyrian blood, making every goddamn one of them qualified to at least try to ride a dragon... 

House Qoherys were not dragon riders, so probably didn't have the "gene" unless they had married into House Targaryen or House Velaryon at some point.  But you make a good point.  Many houses might be Qoherys descendants, even if they aren't aware of it.  This might be where Lothston and Whent  (if my theory is true) get their Qoherys blood.