Patchface Lonmouth?

[YOVMO]

In ADWD Mel says, about Patchface, "That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood"

So, I think it is quite obvious that there is a Lonmouth connection here. Many, if not most people (myself included believe Lem Lemoncloak to be Rhaegar's squire Richard Lonmouth based on evidence no stronger than this....perhaps weaker as we already know that Mel frequently nails sigils on the head and doesn't understand due to her lack of knowledge regarding Westerosi heraldry.

At first, for just a second, I wanted to think that Lem is a yellow herring and patch face is really Richard Lonmouth but that is obviously ridiculous because Lord Steffan's Windproud broke up and sank before Rhaegar was even married and much before the rebellion that would eventually claim his life and send his squire into hiding.

That said, if Patchface is somehow connected to House Lonmouth there are only two possibilities. That it is A) Totally meaningless and just a fun little easter egg or B ) It has some significance.

Now, for me, option A is never an option so I am going to proceed with If Patchface is a lost Lonmouth then it must, in some way, be meaningful. The question then, of course, is what can this meaning be.

So, given the information at hand, my best guess is that patchface is the son of Joffrey Lonmouth and Rhaenyra Targaryen. This idea would mean believing the word of Mushroom over Septon Eustace with regard to the relationship between Ser Criston Cole and Rhaenyra but assuming that Mushroom made the error (deliberate or not) of switching Harwin Strong with Joffrey Lonmouth.

So Rhaenyra (who is getting lessons on how to please a man from her uncle Daemon Targaryen -- and possibly Mushroom) tries to seduce Criston Cole in white sword tower so she can lose her maidenhead to a man she loves rather than her homosexual cousin Laenor Velaryon. When Cole rejects her Mushroom reports that she finds her man in Harwin Strong. However, Laenor's "favorite knight and companion" Ser Joffrey Lonmouth, known as the Knight of the Kisses, very well might have been close by and as likely or stronger a candidate for Rhaenyra to turn to. To be a little cheeky, after Criston Cole, for Rhaenyra....The Choice Was Hers (sic). It is probably that Joffrey Lonmouth was Laenor Velaryon's lover of course, but this doesn't mean he wasn't also Rhaenyra's lover. You know those Lonmouths!

After this Criston Cole goes, without explanation, from being Rhaenyra Targaryen's most staunch supporter to being a bitter foe and then Criston Cole attacks Joffrey Lonmouth during a tourney and smashes in his helmet (and head) with his Morningstar. Now, it is never mentioned that this happens during a Melee. It is simply mentioned as happing during the tourney. For all we know it was in a tavern. If Rhaenyra turned to Lonmouth to lose her maidenhead after being rebuffed by Cole it would make sense why Cole would then want to murder Lonmouth.

All these events are things that directly lead up to being the efficient cause behind the Blackfyre Rebellion.

So do we have any proof that Mushroom was wrong about Harwin Strong and Rhaenyra? Well, not really. What we do know is that Rhaenyra was proud and stubborn and Harwin Strong was not a night, but merely a captain of the city watch. She was a dragon rider (Syrax). Strong served under Daemon Targaryen who Rhaenyra looked up to and possibly had a romantic relationship with (so this would be basically slumming for her which doesn't seem in her character)

Back to patchface who is found in volantis, as good a place as any for the bastard offspring of a Princess and her fiancé's best friend / lover when he is found by Steffon Baratheon--to whom the Lonmouth's owe their fealty and also who has Velaryon bood.

Ok, so there is some gymnastics going on here.....though I don't think it is anything impossible or contradicted by either logic or time line and it all begins with the very sane statement that Patchface is a Lonmouth based on Mel's statement about skulls and red lips and the accuracy of her predictions where Westerosi heraldry is concerned.

All that said....I am left with the same problem.....If Patchface is a Lonmouth (or better, half Lonmouth and half Targaryen) what does it mean for us? Well....it connects his to Rhaegar in a tangential way by making him the uncle of Rhaegar's squire Richard Lonmouth. It connects his to the BwB in the same way assuming Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth. Also, the namesake of his father, Joffrey Velaryon, dies during the storming of the dragonpitt but before that he proved to be a dragonrider so there is some of that.

 

Let me know if I am either a) missing something or b ) have totally lost my senses in the absence of new material from grrm

 

 

 

[estermonty python]

Wasn't Joffrey Lonmouth the gay lover of Laenor Velaryon?  Why would he have slept with any woman he didn't have to, much less the promised bride of his best friend/lover?  That part doesn't add up at all, and there's nothing in the text to support it, so I don't think I can sign on to that specific theory.

 

That said, man, what an awesome catch re: the Lonmouth sigil and Patchface.  There's no way that can be a random coincidence, so he must have some connection with House Lonmouth, either in the past or in the future.  If I had to guess, I'd guess that he'll play some role in either revealing Lonmouth or maybe even killing him - but I really have no idea.

 

Nice catch!

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, estermonty python said:

Wasn't Joffrey Lonmouth the gay lover of Laenor Velaryon?  

Yes, and I mention it in my post.

1 hour ago, estermonty python said:

Why would he have slept with any woman he didn't have to, much less the promised bride of his best friend/lover?  That part doesn't add up at all, and there's nothing in the text to support it, so I don't think I can sign on to that specific theory.

He could have been his lover for position. He could have swung both ways. Those Lonmouths are wacky. It could also be that Joffrey Lonmouth has nothing to do with this. He just fits the basic timing and is the only other named Lonmouth we have.

1 hour ago, estermonty python said:

 

That said, man, what an awesome catch re: the Lonmouth sigil and Patchface.

Thanks. am almost done with my latest re-read and was on the train when I caught it and I had to screen shot the page. I really wanted it to be Richard but it is impossible.

1 hour ago, estermonty python said:

 There's no way that can be a random coincidence, so he must have some connection with House Lonmouth, either in the past or in the future.  

Correct. I am under no delusion that the possibility I gave is a long shot. It is just the first thing I could think of that wasn't necessarily impossible. When I make posts like this I really do try to frame them as questions rather than definite theories.

1 hour ago, estermonty python said:

 

If I had to guess, I'd guess that he'll play some role in either revealing Lonmouth or maybe even killing him - but I really have no idea.

That is a good idea too. But house Lonmouth is a Vassal to House Baratheon and Patchface would have arrived at a time coinciding with the death of Lord Steffan when Robert was still a child. Robert drinks Richard Lonmouth under the table (pre rebellion obviously) while RIchard was Rhaegar's squire and I believe this happens in storms end where it is likely that Patchface was a fool and a fool would have been out and about during a party where the Prince had shown up. Did patchface keep his secret Lonmouth identity a secret? Did he even know his identity? Had he forgotten in when he went under the sea? Not sure. But I don't think he will be the one to reveal that Lem is Richard because it is likely that they have already encountered one another and no one made mention of it at that point.

1 hour ago, estermonty python said:

 

Nice catch!

thanks.

[Aetta]

Robert drank with Richard at the tourney at Harrenhall, not Storm's End (I think that's what you were saying, above).  Still is ok with the timeline and a fool (or two) may indeed have been present at Harrenhall.  

 

[YOVMO]

6 minutes ago, Aetta said:

Robert drank with Richard at the tourney at Harrenhall, not Storm's End (I think that's what you were saying, above).  Still is ok with the timeline and a fool (or two) may indeed have been present at Harrenhall.  

 

Thank you for the clarification. I still stand by the fact that Patchface, if he is a Lonmouth, either never knew or doesn't remember but yes, you are absolutely right...it was Harrenhall tourney. There seems to be no evidence for or against Patchface being in the Baratheon party so it is pure conjecture there.

[sweetsunray]

I think you're making one jump too far for the sigil. Lonmouth is skulls and kisses, not lips red with blood.

Imo it means that Patchface is actually a dead person, a resurrected dead person. Several times George uses a blood red smile or mouth as a foreshadowing to someone who's going to die.

Robert's laughter and smiling is supposed to be a symbol of life, but when he's brought back to the Red Keep after his encounter with the boar, he smiles a red smile, as his teeth and lips are red with blood.

Yoren eats sourleaf, which makes his spit and thus teeth and lips look like blood. Initially we get but a short mention of it, but in the chapter where they near the Gods Eye and they picked up Weasel from the charred village and the one-armed woman who dies after, Arya notices how it looks like he froths blood from his mouth. The next chapter they end up at the Holdfast attacked by Ser Amory and Yoren dies.

Brienne meets the pious dwarf in Duskendale who tells her of Nimble Dick who fooled a fool (Shagwell). The pious dwarf eats sourleaf, and he gives her a "red smile". He claims to go on his way to King's Landing. And based on the description of the bulbous nose, the pious dwarf ends up with a chopped off head by men hoping to get the reward Cersei gives for bringing her Tyrion's head. The men claim the dwarf said he was a sparrow, and the head has a bulbous nose like the pious dwarf.

Meanwhile Mel also sees skulls surround Jon, and we know his sigil has nothing to do with skulls. Hence, the skulls and blood red lips imply that Patchface is either a goner or is actually already dead. And his backstory of the drowning does include the possibility of having died. And his bells ringing all the time is also death related. So far, we haven't heard wedding bells being rung in the books, but we often had bells ringing for dead characters: when Robert died, when Ned was to be executed, when Joffrey died, etc.

 

[cgrav]

Can we be certain it's Patchface she sees? I think we should expect some ambiguity in Mel's interpretations.

Here's a thought: Tyrion spends some time dressed as a fool whil he's traveling with Jon Con, and the Golden Company are known to keep the gold-coated skulls of their former leaders.

Or what about the possibility that she's seeing "Aegon" as a fool, alongside the Golden Company? 

Sometimes I wonder if Patchface was never actually a fool, but magic practitioner or FM who intended to be found by Steffon, but did not foresee the shipwreck. After being damaged by the sea, all that's left is the part of him that sees the future. Sort of a prophetic savant.

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I think you're making one jump too far for the sigil. Lonmouth is skulls and kisses, not lips red with blood.

Imo it means that Patchface is actually a dead person, a resurrected dead person. Several times George uses a blood red smile or mouth as a foreshadowing to someone who's going to die.

Robert's laughter and smiling is supposed to be a symbol of life, but when he's brought back to the Red Keep after his encounter with the boar, he smiles a red smile, as his teeth and lips are red with blood.

Yoren eats sourleaf, which makes his spit and thus teeth and lips look like blood. Initially we get but a short mention of it, but in the chapter where they near the Gods Eye and they picked up Weasel from the charred village and the one-armed woman who dies after, Arya notices how it looks like he froths blood from his mouth. The next chapter they end up at the Holdfast attacked by Ser Amory and Yoren dies.

Brienne meets the pious dwarf in Duskendale who tells her of Nimble Dick who fooled a fool (Shagwell). The pious dwarf eats sourleaf, and he gives her a "red smile". He claims to go on his way to King's Landing. And based on the description of the bulbous nose, the pious dwarf ends up with a chopped off head by men hoping to get the reward Cersei gives for bringing her Tyrion's head. The men claim the dwarf said he was a sparrow, and the head has a bulbous nose like the pious dwarf.

Meanwhile Mel also sees skulls surround Jon, and we know his sigil has nothing to do with skulls. Hence, the skulls and blood red lips imply that Patchface is either a goner or is actually already dead. And his backstory of the drowning does include the possibility of having died. And his bells ringing all the time is also death related. So far, we haven't heard wedding bells being rung in the books, but we often had bells ringing for dead characters: when Robert died, when Ned was to be executed, when Joffrey died, etc.

 

There is nothing that you say here which is particularly arguable. I could point out that Robert's red smile had to do with his mouth actually full of blood and that the sour leaf Yoren eats is reminiscent of Indian Paan which does turn your mouth red, but still, it doesn't do much to combat this. You are, more than likely, correct. But it just seems like odd wording to me. There are 100's of things that foreshadow death. For that matter it could have just been skulls. It is just skulls wrt to Jon. Again, I will say that it is probably nothing as you say...but sometimes I get a sense that there is just more to it.

 

39 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Can we be certain it's Patchface she sees? I think we should expect some ambiguity in Mel's interpretations.

Here's a thought: Tyrion spends some time dressed as a fool whil he's traveling with Jon Con, and the Golden Company are known to keep the gold-coated skulls of their former leaders.

My first inclination is to totally agree with this. And yes, in the same chapter she mistakes Alys Karstark for Arya Stark. That said, Patchface is different. She lived with patchface on dragonstone, travelled with him to the wall and lived with him at the wall. She knows patchface. She doesn't see "some fool in motley" she sees him and she knows what he looks like.

 

40 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Sometimes I wonder if Patchface was never actually a fool, but magic practitioner or FM who intended to be found by Steffon, but did not foresee the shipwreck. After being damaged by the sea, all that's left is the part of him that sees the future. Sort of a prophetic savant.

One of my large threads/theories that I've begun writing and not finishes is titles Idiots of Planetos and goes through the "prophetic savant" powers of all of the morons in our stories including Patchface, Hodor, Jinglebell, Lollys, Butterbumps, moon boy, Mushroom, Small Paul and a few others. I really think that they are incredibly important.

[sweetsunray]

@YOVMO I think the red lips is a foreshadowing of death. Yes there are reasons why Robert's smile is red (actual blood), and yes sourleaf mimics the blood foaming at the mouth because of its color which is like Indian Paan. But it does not take away that those who eat it consistently and are seen to have a bloody mouth like Robert's at his deathbed in Ned's pov foreshadows their death. And the reason why we get skulls and bloody lips together with Patchface may to stipulate that it's not just the fact that he once was resurrected from his drowning somehow, but that it also foreshadows his death. That's the "there's more to it" than his backstory. Jon doesn't get bloody lips because he won't stay dead most like. And then per usual we have Mel who erronously interpretes it as some sign that Patchface is evil, and she's wrong. Poor Patchface will die, without doing anything evil. Robert was a philanderer and a drunk and poor husband and king, but he was not evil. Yoren was rough and smelled, but he was not evil. The pious dwarf certainly was not evil. In fact we seem to get that blood foaming mouth image overall for characters that wish to be helpful.

[estermonty python]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

 

I think you're making one jump too far for the sigil. Lonmouth is skulls and kisses, not lips red with blood.

 

Oh I disagree.  First, I'm pretty sure Lonmouth is red lips and yellow skulls, not "kisses," whatever that means.  At any rate, Melisandre is no heraldry expert, she wouldn't make that distinction.  Skulls and red lips are too much of a coincidence not to be connected.  To argue otherwise by taking the "with blood" part of the otherwise ambiguous Melisandre prophecy seems more willful than logical.

Robert not only drank Lonmouth under the table at Harrenhal, but weren't the two of them also committed to unmasking the knight of the laughing tree?  That is, literally, the last we know of him.  Maybe he ties in with that, somehow?

 

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

Oh I disagree.  First, I'm pretty sure Lonmouth is red lips and yellow skulls, not "kisses," whatever that means.  At any rate, Melisandre is no heraldry expert, she wouldn't make that distinction.  Skulls and red lips are too much of a coincidence not to be connected.  To argue otherwise by taking the "with blood" part of the otherwise ambiguous Melisandre prophecy seems more willful than logical.

Robert not only drank Lonmouth under the table at Harrenhal, but weren't the two of them also committed to unmasking the knight of the laughing tree?  That is, literally, the last we know of him.  Maybe he ties in with that, somehow?

 

Joffrey Lonmouth was nicknamed the Knight of Kisses. GoHH mentions skulls in relation to Lem and wants a kiss from Lem Lemoncloak all the time. This is one of the reasons why Lem Lemoncloak is believed to be Richard Lonmouth by many readers: https://ladygwynhyfvar.wordpress.com/2014/02/03/lemuncloaked-the-true-identity-of-lem-lemoncloak/

Here are the passages I'm alluding with regards "with blood"... and it has nothing to do with being willful.

Quote

The king's smile was as terrible as his wound, his teeth red..[snip]... Robert managed a weak red smile. "At the least, they will say … this last thing … this I did right. You won't fail me. You'll rule now. You'll hate it, worse than I did … but you'll do well. Are you done with the scribbling?" (aGoT, Eddard VIII)

=> Robert is never seen again, as he was dead.

Quote

She still remembered the innkeep, a fat woman named Masha Heddle who chewed sourleaf night and day and seemed to have an endless supply of smiles and sweet cakes for the children. The sweet cakes had been soaked with honey, rich and heavy on the tongue, but how Catelyn had dreaded those smiles. The sourleaf had stained Masha's teeth a dark red, and made her smile a bloody horror. (aGoT, Catelyn V)

=> hung by Lannisters

Quote

"Orphan boys got no fathers," Yoren said, "or did you forget that?" The sourleaf had turned his spit red, so it looked like his mouth was bleeding. "The only wolves we got to fear are the ones wear manskin, like those who done for that village."... [snip]... "Been bringing men to the Wall for close on thirty years." Froth shone on Yoren's lips, like bubbles of blood. (aCoK, Arya III)

=> killed in the next chapter by Ser Amory's gang

Quote

We could cook the bloody dogs, Chett thought, but he kept his mouth shut until the Old Bear sent him on his way...[snip].. Instead he wrapped a black wool scarf round the lower part of his face, leaving a slit for his mouth between the winds. It was warmer if he kept moving, he found, so he made a slow circuit of the perimeter with a wad of sourleaf, sharing a chew or two with the black brothers on guard and hearing what they had to say. (aSoS, Prologue, aka conspiritor Chett at the Fist)

=> killed at the Fist and so are most of the brothers

Quote

Then a voice behind her said, "M'lady, here, have my place." Not until he hopped off the bench did Brienne realize that the speaker was a dwarf. The little man was not quite five feet tall. His nose was veined and bulbous, his teeth red from sourleaf, and he was dressed in the brown roughspun robes of a holy brother, with the iron hammer of the Smith dangling down about his thick neck. (aFfC, Brienne II)

=> ends up beheaded and taken to Cersei for reward

 

Quote

 

"The boy had courage, I always said so. It was in his blood." A pinkish froth glistened on Ser Emmon's lips when he spoke, courtesy of the sourleaf he liked to chew.

"His bones should be interred beneath the Rock, in the Hall of Heroes," Lady Genna declared. "Where was he laid to rest?" (aFfC, Jaime V)

 

His aunt departed last, her husband at her heels. "Lord nephew," Emmon protested, "this assault on my seat . . . you must not do this." When he swallowed, the apple in his throat moved up and down. "You must not. I . . . I forbid it." He had been chewing sourleaf again; pinkish froth glistened on his lips. "The castle is mine, I have the parchment. Signed by the king, by little Tommen. I am the lawful lord of Riverrun, and . . ." (aFfC, Jaime VI)

 

Lord Emmon rubbed his mouth. His hand came away red and slimy from the sourleaf. "To be sure. Riverrun is mine, and no man shall ever take it from me." He gave Edmure Tully one last suspicious look, as Lady Genna drew him from the solar. (aFfC, Jaime VII)

 

 

 

Emmon Frey is so very very dead!!!!

 

Quote

Marywn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. (aFfC, Samwell V)

 

 

Unfortunately so would be Marwyn. ANd I'd say Snatch is a dead man walking as well

 

Quote

"Nine." Snatch snorted and spat out a mouthful of red slime. Aiming for Tyrion's feet, perhaps, but it landed on his knee. Plainly that was what he thought of "nine." The serjeant's fingers were stained a mottled red from the juice of the sourleaf he chewed.  (aDwD, Tyrion XII)

Anyway, so far we've had bloody mouths for Robert (real blood), Masha, Yoren, Chett (well we don't see his bloody looking mouth because it's from his POV, but we know he should have one), and the pious dwarf. That's 5. 

Now, I do think Patchface is a very special person, but for entirely different reasons than OP.

 

[YOVMO]

8 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

two of them also committed to unmasking the knight of the laughing tree?

yes, they jointly vowed this. Good pick up

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, YOVMO said:

 

Just for clarification:

Rheanyra T died in 130 at the age of 23, which would put PF's birth at 120 at the earliest. In 278, the year Steffon B died, the now 160-odd year-old PF still appears to be a boy, but then proceeds to age normally from there?

Is this all due to magic?

 

[YOVMO]

3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Just for clarification:

Rheanyra T died in 130 at the age of 23, which would put PF's birth at 120 at the earliest. In 278, the year Steffon B died, the now 160-odd year-old PF still appears to be a boy, but then proceeds to age normally from there?

Is this all due to magic?

 

no, you are 100 percent correct. There would be another generation between Joffrey Lonmouth and Patchface. I don't think it discredits the idea that Patchface is a Lonmouth...just the hypothetical I threw up there off the top of my head. Thank you for clarification.

 

EDIT: The reason I jumped on to Joffrey Lonmouth wasn't because of all the compelling evidence but only because other than Richard (whose timeline doesn't fit) he is the only other named Lonmouth. Assuredly there were other members of this family. I know @sweetsunray argues that the skulls and red lips are foreshadowing of death and, to be honest, I really don't have a lot of evidence to suggest otherwise, but I do not think it is unlikely that Patchface is a lost Lonmouth. Melisandre's general accuracy when it comes to seeing and (due to ignorance of westorsi heraldry) misunderstanding sigils is pretty spot on.

[sweetsunray]

39 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

@sweetsunrayMelisandre's general accuracy when it comes to seeing and (due to ignorance of westorsi heraldry) misunderstanding sigils is pretty spot on.

Can you provide a consistent list of Mel seeing sigils?

Jon Snow she sees snow and skulls. Which sigil is that? It's more an image of foreshadowing and his name

The weeping skulls on spears. Which sigil that? None that I know. It is an image of foreshadowing and the murderer's name - The Weeper

Quote

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

Bloodraven's sigil is a single white dragon spewing red flame. She does not see that. She sees him as someone skinchanging a tree and the song named after him "a thousand eyes, and one" minus the one. You could say she sees Bran's sigil, but his sigil is not a direwolf head, but a complete direwolf. Instead it's more like she sees Bran as warged to Summer.

[YOVMO]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Can you provide a consistent list of Mel seeing sigils?

I absolutely can....though not here at work I would need to sit at home with my laptop, some hibiscus tea and a search of ice and fire....

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Jon Snow she sees snow and skulls. Which sigil is that? It's more an image of foreshadowing and his name

I don't want to say she exclusively sees sigils. I think seeing snow when she looks for AA is pretty clear. I think seeing skulls around johns head is pretty clear. I further think that at times when she does see sigils she often misunderstands them because she doesn't know they are sigils.

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The weeping skulls on spears. Which sigil that? None that I know. It is an image of foreshadowing and the murderer's name - The Weeper

Again, I certainly do not want to go as far as claiming that all of Mel's visions are sigil based. Just that some are and when they are she often doesn't get it. I will come up with a few this weekend for you. But red lips and skulls is a pretty exact picture of house lonmouths sigil. It is no different than what the woods witch has on Lem Lemoncloak and no one seems to balk. Again, I will say that you are probably right and it doesn't have much greater meaning and there is nothing you have presented in form of argument against that I really have any way of contesting -- nor that I wish too. But to say that a direct reference to skulls and red lips regarding a character with an uncertain background at best is 100% absolutely positively nothing to do with house lonmouth is a little extreme. I am working in possibilities here...not even probabilities, just possibilities.

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Bloodraven's sigil is a single white dragon spewing red flame. She does not see that. She sees him as someone skinchanging a tree and the song named after him "a thousand eyes, and one" minus the one. You could say she sees Bran's sigil, but his sigil is not a direwolf head, but a complete direwolf. Instead it's more like she sees Bran as warged to Summer.

 

[Light a wight tonight]

6 hours ago, YOVMO said:

(snip)

Let me know if I am either a) missing something or b ) have totally lost my senses in the absence of new material from grrm

 

 

 

Missing: Occam's Razor

[sweetsunray]

I know you are working on possibilities, and I'm sorry if I seem to challenge you so strongly on it, and the reason for that is because I agree with you that the vision Mel has about Patchface is very important, but I do not think it is relevant who Patchface might have been in another life, or his origin, but who he is now. And I know  from other posts that you pick up on stuff and can see meta-related sybolism. And here I just think you miss the point.

I was recently contacted on my blog by a French reader who was reading about bears and ended up on my blog and is an aSoIaF fan. And she gave me (and consequetionally @LmL) a missing clue to piece "stags", "bears", "chthonic references", "seasons", "poison", "fools", "dancing" and greenseer stuff together. I'll just quote her (Emmalaure) because it's a lightbulb one...

Quote

To go further with the bear and his mythology, all this remind me another book which was about the stag’s european mythology and the link with “carnaval” (“Aux origines de Carnaval” from Anne Lombard-Jourdain) : stag shares some specificities with the bear : it is a king in the forest, protective, who die/loose its horns during winter (=carnaval), and have a re-birth with the spring. The stags hunt and the death is very strongly codified, and a royal activity. There is a story to explain the fall of the horn : stag encounter a snakewoman beneath a source, fight with, kill under its feet and eat, but the venom is mortal and the fever get high. So the stag must drink lot of water to refresh and dance furiously to evacuate the venom which purge the body of the stag and regenerate : stag loose its horn and hide itself because it is in great weakness, but with the spring, it appears higher and stronger. In the myths with humans characters, the snake-woman is Melusine (Melusine is the reverse of the swan-knight Lohengrin, who disappear when his secret is revealed by the fault of a third jalous characteror by the fault of curiosity).
As the bear, the stag has no proper name, but the words for it are to qualify : “stag” (=> the male), cerf from cervus (=> the horn; who served to name a gallic god without name “Cernunnos”), deer (=> the animal, same root than “Tier”/animal in germain) and so on…
As two animals kings, the mythology of stag and bear are mixed together – I think – in some myths : king Arthur (=whose name is “the bear”) is also represented as a king stag who share bed with his sister Morgan, and loose the kingdom when their son Mordred is becoming a adult.
At the end, the stag is the object of the “Wild Hunts”, hunts of the deads, furious spirits of the dead, who have committed a crime against gods and are condamned to hunt for eternity without rest. The master hunter is “Hellequin” (with the root “horn/hern/cornu…”) who gave the italian “Arlechino”, the comic character who is dressed in patchwork, and so, in ASOIAF, we have Shagwell from the Mummers (a hunter hunted and sacrified by Brienne), and also the strange and big Patchface with his hat with horns and bells (Patchface is also a dancing bear^^). And what could we say about the Baratheon, as black and furious as bears !

We recently had that thread and discussion about who is dead and resurrected (symbolically or literal), and me pointing out you can order by underworld type, with the sea also being an underworld. So, in Patchface we have the Harlequin (fool, very explicitly), with horns (like stag), with bells (that ring for the dead), who dances (getting the poison out), talks of the sea like an underworld and is presently in an underworldly earthly realm, "shadows come to dance" (wild hunt), and then the skulls and bloody lips (sacrificed but also regenerates). The first time we met Patchface (aCoK, Prologue), Mel took his helm with stag-horn away from him, put it on Cressen's head, who then tried to poison her, but ended up poisoning himself and died.

Now, I would agree that Lonmouth is very likely also a chthonic character: skulls and red lips are some of the many related imagery George uses in that sense. His sigil certainly is and the way GoHH talks about skulls and kisses, with worms and all, well that is all very chthnoic. With Lem his background story is likely relevant because he mentions the past once in a while and the whores of the Peach recognize him. But everything with Patchface points to who and what he is at present, since his drowning, that is of significance. 

[Light a wight tonight]

You could also take bloody lips as vampirism. Lothson rather than Lonmouth. 

Heh.

[estermonty python]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Joffrey Lonmouth was nicknamed the Knight of Kisses. GoHH mentions skulls in relation to Lem and wants a kiss from Lem Lemoncloak all the time. This is one of the reasons why Lem Lemoncloak is believed to be Richard Lonmouth by many readers: https://ladygwynhyfvar.wordpress.com/2014/02/03/lemuncloaked-the-true-identity-of-lem-lemoncloak/

Here are the passages I'm alluding with regards "with blood"... and it has nothing to do with being willful.

=> Robert is never seen again, as he was dead.

=> hung by Lannisters

=> killed in the next chapter by Ser Amory's gang

=> killed at the Fist and so are most of the brothers

=> ends up beheaded and taken to Cersei for reward

 

 

 

Emmon Frey is so very very dead!!!!

 

 

 

Unfortunately so would be Marwyn. ANd I'd say Snatch is a dead man walking as well

 

Anyway, so far we've had bloody mouths for Robert (real blood), Masha, Yoren, Chett (well we don't see his bloody looking mouth because it's from his POV, but we know he should have one), and the pious dwarf. That's 5. 

Now, I do think Patchface is a very special person, but for entirely different reasons than OP.

 

Right - no - this IS being willful.  You have a pet theory about red mouths, which is fine and interesting, but as a result you're fundamentally opposed to this very interesting (and original) connection purely because it would suggest a different reading of Patchface's red mouth than one you came up with.  The fact that the sigil of House Lonmoth is LITERALLY red lips and skulls and we have a description of EXACTLY that is probably not an accident.  

As far as Jon and his skulls go, there's already been one fight at the Bridge of Skulls, and I believe they're gearing up for another.  Jon could play a role in that, or that could end up being some sort of path used by the Others - we just don't know yet.  It also could potentially be a reference to House Qoherys, the first Targ-approved Lords of Harrenhall, whose sigil is skulls and flames, but I find that much less likely.