The Horn of Winter was never made to make the wall fall...

[Pain killer Jane]

2 minutes ago, LmL said:

You have to remember that St. Nick was created as a way of baptizing the Wild Man, since they could not stamp out his worship. They bifurcated that legend, exiling the carnal, unrestrained and wild aspects to the goat -horned devil, and created St. Nick the kind of Father Christmas as a sanitized version. It's a really fascinating use of mythology as propaganda. I think it was @Pain killer Jane who recommend this link a page ago on this thread, it's terrific, and expert from a book called Santa Claus: Last of the Wild Men:

https://books.google.com/books?id=hkw2bPlfTUQC&pg=PA69&dq=devil's+bluster&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRqsaIkdvQAhUO02MKHfZyCyQQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=devil&f=false

Yup that was me. And I have this one as well.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1556358393/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_9LBpybR2V50KG

Dr. deChant was a professor of mine in college. The anthropology department would invite him every year to lecture on this aspect of Santa at the end of term. And you should read Terry Pratchett's The Hogfather. The Grim Reaper running around trying to save Christmas in a fake beard and a pillow up his robes with his immortal-ish wizard butler dressed up as an elf. And at one point, a little girl asks for a sword along with a castle and knights. Truly hilarious book. 

[Pain killer Jane]

22 minutes ago, LmL said:

A fire moon meteor, lodged in the ice moon and / or the Heart of Winter, creating burning cold demons. Something like that. Some have speculated that the others were originally dragon people, GEOTD people, and perhaps this is so. Or perhaps the horned lords are at the center of it, with some becoming dragon people and some Others. 

And all becoming scarecrows/shadows of the living. 

[Pain killer Jane]

48 minutes ago, LmL said:

So, what we see when the fire moon explodes, essentially, is that some fiery moon meteors land on earth, creating a burning tree or sea dragon - symbols of the meteor interacting with the earth or the ocean. These are the more typical AA reborn symbols. But some AA reborn black meteor people get covered in snow and ice, and become a NQ. I think this is what happened to Brienne the Blue - in her last fight with Biter, Biter falls on her like an avalanche and his huge white face "became the world" or "filled the world" or something like that. She's literally buried in an avalanche of Biter, who is like a white moon symbol and a merling symbol. Biter even EATS HER, which is exactly the idea - Brienne the Evenstar (Evenstar = dark Venus symbolism, i.e. black meteors, black LB, etc.) is swallowed by the ice moon. Her carrying Oathkeeper symbolizes the black meteors as well, but then she's also Brienne the Blue, you know?  When Jamie sees her again, she looks half a corpse, just like the Corpse Queen. 

So we can say that Brienne drowned in her fight with Biter? And could we speculate that Brienne died at the hands of Lady Stoneheart and was maybe resurrected? (I know, crackpot.) And you know, Brienne was/possibly killed by an undead Cat and the arms of House Tarth have that sickle moon (the smiling knight parallel you mentioned upthread and then the person that says she looks like half a corpse said that along the way he became the Smiling Knight) and sun (and we know the association between the sun and lions) paired together. Edit: And we can't forget that she has that bit of dragon blood in her as well. Edit: and her ancestor Dunk the lunk, where the word lunk comes from lump which may come come from lumpe in Danish which means a "block, stump, log" and then his name is Dunk or 'dipped into water". 

[Pain killer Jane]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

There's also this pattern of very fiery people becoming KG It happens a damn lot. If you go through he KG annals, a disproportionate number of them used to have fiery or red symbolism about them.

We also get a lot of people associated with the earth becoming KG

The Demon of Darry an LC of the KG, who I think is Lord Deremond from the song. 
Red Robert Flowers
Ser Richard Roote 
Ser Addison Hill, the bastard of Cornfield. Addison means 'son of Adam.' 
Ser Ryam Redwyne
Ser Mervyn Flowers
Ser joffrey Stauton of House Staunton of Rook's Rest. Not strictly an earth family but I like that a Rook is both a scarecrow and a horned lord and he is implicated in the abduction of Merry Meg from her blacksmith husband by a corrupted black dragon. 
Ser Rolland Crakehall. (I wonder why he isn't nicknamed the white boar? That would be super juicy given what you said about the black boar in your latest piece.)
Ser Barristan of House Selmy of Harvest Hall. (and he is the one that pointed out that Quentyn Martell was mud and Daario was fire and young girls always wanted fire more. And since the idea of mud is supposed to evoke fertility, it is interesting that fire is seen as giving birth when Beric asks Thoros if he is his mother.)

[LmL]

45 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

We also get a lot of people associated with the earth becoming KG

The Demon of Darry an LC of the KG, who I think is Lord Deremond from the song. 
Red Robert Flowers
Ser Richard Roote 
Ser Addison Hill, the bastard of Cornfield. Addison means 'son of Adam.' 
Ser Ryam Redwyne
Ser Mervyn Flowers
Ser joffrey Stauton of House Staunton of Rook's Rest. Not strictly an earth family but I like that a Rook is both a scarecrow and a horned lord and he is implicated in the abduction of Merry Meg from her blacksmith husband by a corrupted black dragon. 
Ser Rolland Crakehall. (I wonder why he isn't nicknamed the white boar? That would be super juicy given what you said about the black boar in your latest piece.)
Ser Barristan of House Selmy of Harvest Hall. (and he is the one that pointed out that Quentyn Martell was mud and Daario was fire and young girls always wanted fire more. And since the idea of mud is supposed to evoke fertility, it is interesting that fire is seen as giving birth when Beric asks Thoros if he is his mother.)

On a related note, what do you have in the way of people associated with green men or horned lord ideas joining the NW? Here's what I have so far, in addition to Sam Tarly and all his Herne the Hunter symbolism from the ancestors of House Tarly:

For a start, there are no less than three Garth’s in the Night’s Watch – Garth of Oldtown, Garth Greyfeather, and Garth Greenaway.  I’ve actually spent time tracing out the action of these three to see if there is a correlation to the three Baratheon brothers, and there are signs that this is the case, but this episode is running long as it is, so I will just say that “green-away” is suggestive of a green man dying or losing his green, “grey-feather” could imply death, as grey is the color of corpses, and Garth of Oldtown might be a reference to the Great Empire of the Dawn, the race of Dawn Age Dragonlords who most likely built the fused stone fortress at Oldtown.  Whether or not any of that holds water, the fact that there are three Garths in the Watch is suggestive.

Then we have Tom Barleycorn, a clear allusion to Jon Barleycorn, an English folk character.  He’s not a horned god, but he is a corn king – his story basically imitates the cycle of the barley plant, with his death and resurrection doing the standard thing of symbolizing the the cycle of the seasons.  Appropriately, Tom Barleycorn is a scout, someone skilled with woodscraft.

There’s Jarman Buckwell, whose house sigil sports a rack of golden stag’s antlers. Gren, called “aurochs” because he is as big and shaggy as an aurochs – and an aurochs is a horned animal. Toddler, also known as Toad, reminds us of the crannogmen, the frog-eaters, who have almost certainly interbred with he children of the forest. Winton Stout comes from House Stout, who actually live at Barrowton, evoking the dead Garth idea of the Barrow Kings. Ulmer of the Kingwood brotherhood deserves a mention, because the Kingwood brotherhood are a Robin-Hood like group that lives in the woods and protects the people.  Kedge Whiteeye has one blind eye and the reminds us of Bloodraven, a greenseer. George even hid an Elron in the Night’s Watch – like Elrond of Rivendell, the ruler of the Rivendell elves in Lord of the Rings – in the appendix of ACOK.  Very sneaky.  Garrett Greenspear is suggestive of a green warrior

Many are from the reach: Sam Tarly, the three Garths, Daeron the “singer,” Satin the former Oldtown whore, Black Jack Bulwer (whose death is tied to Ghost and lunar bull killing), Jafer Flowers (who becomes a wight in AGOT),

There are Night’s Watchmen associated with wood, like Dywen, who has wooden teeth and can smell the wights coming on the Fist.  Big Liddle comes from the Liddles of the Mountain Clans of the North, and their sigil is a green and white tree line pattern with three pinecones.  The mountain clans dress up as trees and bushes when they attack Deepwood Motte under the command of a fiery stag Azor Ahai person, Stannis Baratheon, giving us tree people connection to Azor Ahai and stag-men.  Leathers and Jax, two wildlings who join the Watch, are called “sons of the haunted forest” by Jon.  Wick Whittlestick is one of the a-holes that murdered Jon.

Thoren Smallwood of Acorn Hall, a place where Arya is dressed up in an green dress with acorns, to which she says “I look like an oak tree;” she’s and called skinny squirrel by a fellow named Greenbeard. These are all children of the forest clues, as the children are called “squirrel peole” by the giants and greenseer are tree people, and the the child know as Leaf is many times compared to Arya by Bran.  There is more squirrel – children symbolism in the Night’s Watch, as we find a Geoff the Squirrel hidden in the appendix of AFFC, and then there is Bedeck, called “Giant,” and here I have to pull form ACOK:

Jon hear a rustling from the red leaves above.  Two branches parted, and he glimpsed a little man moving from limb to limb as easily as a squirrel.  Bedeck stood no more than five feet tall, but the grey streak in his hair showed his age.  The other rangers called him giant. 

A ranger is who both old and child sized, like a children of the forest, is a squirrel person, like the children, and who is inhabiting weirwood trees, like a greenseer.  When the brothers are sheltering from the rain outside of Craster’s in ACOK, Giant “crams himself inside the hollow of a dead oak,” and ask Jon how he likes his castle.

[LmL]

@Evolett didn't you and I talk about this one time in regards to Jon's weirwood grove of nine?

[Pain killer Jane]

36 minutes ago, LmL said:

On a related note, what do you have in the way of people associated with green men or horned lord ideas joining the NW? Here's what I have so far, in addition to Sam Tarly and all his Herne the Hunter symbolism from the ancestors of House Tarly:

Nice I like what you have to say on that. The toad part always reminds me of House Vypren, Princess Meria 'the yellow toad of dorne" which is an inversion of the young fertile princess used to sire kings, Maggy the Frog, Lonnel Snow and his crannogman mother, Wylla Fenn, the lily pad house. 

Anyway in terms of what I think of earthy/forest people becoming NW is that they are burned men that symbolically represent the burned crops during war as a scare tactic and since they are surrounded by salt water, they are burned and salted and therefore not fertile anymore. 

[Pain killer Jane]

21 minutes ago, LmL said:

On a related note, what do you have in the way of people associated with green men or horned lord ideas joining the NW? Here's what I have so far, in addition to Sam Tarly and all his Herne the Hunter symbolism from the ancestors of House Tarly:

And like you pointed out up thread, the theme of fire people becoming icy others can be considered burned men as well but they were burnt by ice. We consider that the original king that invested the honor of the KGs to people was a black dragon and combine it with this theme of fire being an element for rebirth (Berric, Catelyn) then we can say that the black dragon king blessed (burned) a knight and he was reborn as a KGs and also symbolically had his fertility taken away. 

[Pain killer Jane]

39 minutes ago, LmL said:

There are Night’s Watchmen associated with wood, like Dywen, who has wooden teeth and can smell the wights coming on the Fist.  Big Liddle comes from the Liddles of the Mountain Clans of the North, and their sigil is a green and white tree line pattern with three pinecones.  The mountain clans dress up as trees and bushes when they attack Deepwood Motte under the command of a fiery stag Azor Ahai person, Stannis Baratheon, giving us tree people connection to Azor Ahai and stag-men.  Leathers and Jax, two wildlings who join the Watch, are called “sons of the haunted forest” by Jon.  Wick Whittlestick is one of the a-holes that murdered Jon.

First Ranger Stane from House Stane (stain) with their sigil of a barren driftwood tree and seat named Driftwood Hall, and was Skagosi (stone person). 
His LC was Orbert Caswell, the black Centaur. and their Sagittarius sigil and their seat at Bitterbridge which received that name - original name was Stonebridge- when the Faith militant (stars and swords) clashed with Maegor and the Mander ran red with their blood, ala Rhaegar dying at the Ruby Ford and House Caswell carries the title Defender of the Fords.   

[LmL]

10 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And like you pointed out up thread, the theme of fire people becoming icy others can be considered burned men as well but they were burnt by ice. We consider that the original king that invested the honor of the KGs to people was a black dragon and combine it with this theme of fire being an element for rebirth (Berric, Catelyn) then we can say that the black dragon king blessed (burned) a knight and he was reborn as a KGs and also symbolically had his fertility taken away. 

Well, the interesting thing about the creation of the KG is that it was actually Visenya who created them, and Visenya is the ice moon queen for Aegon, with Rhaenys being the fire moon queen.  The hills in KL tell the story- the dragonpit is a burnt and destroyed home of dragons (like the fire moon) and the hill of Visenya gleams with white marble and crystal, houses the Warriors Sons (who like the KG symbolize the Others), and is still intact.  The High Septon has a weirwood staff topped with crystal, with crystal and it's rainbows being analogous to the Wall and ice in general. So, in other words, Aegon the Dragon is the solar king, or perhaps the dark solar king, with two wives, and it is his ice moon bride who creates the others, just as the CQ did. Aegean and Visenya, Rhaegar and Lyanna, NK and CQ - I see these pairings as very much in parallel. 

[Pain killer Jane]

And I think we derailed the topic from the Horn of Winter......

[LmL]

1 minute ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And I think we derailed the topic from the Horn of Winter......

Yes I need to star a thread for my zombie episodes... i am trying to work on the third part and I know if I start a thread it will take me away form it... 

[Pain killer Jane]

18 minutes ago, LmL said:

Well, the interesting thing about the creation of the KG is that it was actually Visenya who created them, and Visenya is the ice moon queen for Aegon, with Rhaenys being the fire moon queen.  The hills in KL tell the story- the dragonpit is a burnt and destroyed home of dragons (like the fire moon) and the hill of Visenya gleams with white marble and crystal, houses the Warriors Sons (who like the KG symbolize the Others), and is still intact.  The High Septon has a weirwood staff topped with crystal, with crystal and it's rainbows being analogous to the Wall and ice in general. So, in other words, Aegon the Dragon is the solar king, or perhaps the dark solar king, with two wives, and it is his ice moon bride who creates the others, just as the CQ did. Aegean and Visenya, Rhaegar and Lyanna, NK and CQ - I see these pairings as very much in parallel. 

And Visenya's hill has at its base the Guild of Alchemists with their caves of wild fire. And before the Sept of Baelor existed there, the whore house named the House of Kisses, the seat of Gaemon Palehair, who became the food taster and the whipping boy for Aegon III. 

[LmL]

15 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And Visenya's hill has at its base the Guild of Alchemists with their caves of wild fire. And before the Sept of Baelor existed there, the whore house named the House of Kisses, the seat of Gaemon Palehair, who became the food taster and the whipping boy for Aegon III. 

Right, that whole little subsection about the "moon of three kings" - LOL, right - is a sun and two moons metaphor. The Red Keep is the sun, Rhaenys's Hill is the fire moon, Visenya's Hil the ice moon. Gaemon Pale hair is the pale ice moon, and he's on Visenya's hill. He survived the battle and became an assistant to the king (the sun), just as the ice moon survived the Long Night shitstorm and live son to serve the sun. Tristane Trufyre, however, he set up shop in the Red Keep along with Ser Perkin the Flea (a black, blood-sucking creature) after the storming of the dragonpit. This is the fire moon, moving in front of the sun to eclipse it, wandering too close to the sun, etc. He was killed, as the fire moon was, by the sun (the king), although he was knighted first, then killed.  Knighted as in Long Nighted, and dead like a dead knight, a zombie knight, etc. I was saving all of that for my moons of ice and fire episode, but whatevs, you drug it out of me, Ha ha.

 

[Pain killer Jane]

13 minutes ago, LmL said:

. I was saving all of that for my moons of ice and fire episode, but whatevs, you drug it out of me, Ha ha.

And thank you for that. And now that you mention that Trystane was a squire when he died, if we equate that to apprentices ('prentice boys - the last name Prentis was given to the root member of a family that had been an apprentice. And the 'prentice boys became wights and thus ice-burned) and this theme of both squires and apprentices dying horribly/slaughtered/sacrificed then that also equates to the fire moon Nissa Nissa being sacrificed.  

[LmL]

2 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And thank you for that. And now that you mention that Trystane was a squire when he died, if we equate that to apprentices ('prentice boys - the last name Prentis was given to the root member of a family that had been an apprentice. And the 'prentice boys became wights and thus ice-burned) and this theme of both squires and apprentices dying horribly/slaughtered/sacrificed then that also equates to the fire moon Nissa Nissa being sacrificed.  

That makes sense, since that first moon died a long time ago - when it was young. Just as Elia died first (she did right?) and just as Rhaenys died much longer than Visenya. 'Nissan' also means helpful or mischievous elf in most Scandinavian languages, so NN could have been an elf woman. That's why I sometimes wonder if NN WAS Tiger Woman, just as the BSE was AA. Or was Tiger Woman zombie NN? Or were they both elf women of some fashion?

[Pain killer Jane]

26 minutes ago, LmL said:

That makes sense, since that first moon died a long time ago - when it was young. Just as Elia died first (she did right?) and just as Rhaenys died much longer than Visenya. 'Nissan' also means helpful or mischievous elf in most Scandinavian languages, so NN could have been an elf woman. That's why I sometimes wonder if NN WAS Tiger Woman, just as the BSE was AA. Or was Tiger Woman zombie NN? Or were they both elf women of some fashion?

Yeah Elia died before Lyanna. I can see NN being the Tiger-woman bride as that would go with red fire shot through with green, and sacrificing fertility for knowledge/light/fire and if the Tiger Woman was a zombie NN then that would also go with those themes and the added symbolism of the shadow cats being icy tigers. edit: and the drowned woman, undead mermaids. 

In terms of them being both elf women, they could have been sisters and we would have to scrutinize the stories of Garth's daughters and their parallels and that would fit with Rhaenys and Visenya, Arya and Sansa or maybe even have been a Trio of sisters since we have those themes as well. Perhaps the woman with the monkey's tail (Yin Tar) was a third sister? 

[LmL]

5 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Yeah Elia died before Lyanna. I can see NN being the Tiger-woman bride as that would go with red fire shot through with green, and sacrificing fertility for knowledge/light/fire and if the Tiger Woman was a zombie NN then that would also go with those themes and the added symbolism of the shadow cats being icy tigers. edit: and the drowned woman, undead mermaids. 

In terms of them being both elf women, they could have been sisters and we would have to scrutinize the stories of Garth's daughters and their parallels and that would fit with Rhaenys and Visenya, Arya and Sansa or maybe even have been a Trio of sisters since we have those themes as well. Perhaps the woman with the monkey's tail (Yin Tar) was a third sister? 

Exacrtly, then we have monkey tail woman who could easily be either NN reborn (NN reborn as a hero, seen that a few times, like Dany for example, Arya too) or Tiger Woman. It's hard to sort out exactly, but these clues sound like cat women or cotf women or elf women of some kind. 

Explain to me why you think Yin Tar is the Monkey Tail woman? Yin Tar is supposed to be the Yi Tish name for AA, although they also say Monkey Tail woman ended the LN, so it is confusing. 

[Pain killer Jane]

28 minutes ago, LmL said:

Exacrtly, then we have monkey tail woman who could easily be either NN reborn (NN reborn as a hero, seen that a few times, like Dany for example, Arya too) or Tiger Woman. It's hard to sort out exactly, but these clues sound like cat women or cotf women or elf women of some kind. 

Explain to me why you think Yin Tar is the Monkey Tail woman? Yin Tar is supposed to be the Yi Tish name for AA, although they also say Monkey Tail woman ended the LN, so it is confusing. 

Yin is the female aspect of yin and yang (that balance theme GRRM keeps throwing in our faces) and one way to get tar is from peat (decayed peat moss in wetland areas and one place we have cotf-ish allusion persisting is the swamps of the Neck. And remember that the Green Fork receives its name from the green moss in the Neck and I have this weird theory that the Trident shows the three forgings of LB.) And we have that weird blurb about the Little Valyrians/lemurs (whose etymology is the Latin Lemures or malignant shades/spirits) that seem out of place in the northerly forests of Qohor, the city of sorcerers.   

[cgrav]

What do we think of the possibility that AA and NN are not literal people in Planetos history? I feel like understanding them as purely symbolic and archetypal clears the way to consider other historical accounts as literal without filling them with contradiction. The BSE and the Blood Betrayal could then be the basis for a mythical AA/NN without timeline issues. Or maybe it has a literal counterpart in all of the major cultures, which would be consistent with the many names for that hero, because it wasn't just one hero.

The disordered chronology of the original Lightbringer forging makes it, as far as I can tell, impossible to square with any historical account of the period. The AA myth puts the Long Night falling before the moon was cracked, while it seems every other literal and symbolic retelling of those events both extremely consistent. Azor Ahai is the exception to this consistency, despite it being at the center of all this. GRRM's use of the word "reborn" then is a sort of clever misdirection, because it was a type of person who was born, rather than a single actual person.