The Horn of Winter was never made to make the wall fall...

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Assuming deer is a fire symbol (there is plenty of evidence for this, e.g. Stannis's fiery stag consumed by the heart of fire, the horned lords who are fiery greenseers, etc.) and wolf is an ice symbol, then the idea communicated is that there ought to be a balance between the two, rather than ascendancy of any one of the parties (i.e. vs. that commonly advocated by those I refer to as 'Targ-besotted' who are hoping for a Targ restoration with Jon at the helm and hold all things fire in the highest estimation).  On the contrary, the deer overrunning the world are no less 'evil' than the wolves sweeping over the earth (in a moving wolf or ice 'pack'!) in order to preserve the environmental balance, just as the dragons are no less destructive than the Others.

This is an interesting idea.  I have wondered why Melisandre and Thoros were assigned to Baratheons.  This implies that she thinks Azor Ahai will come from this bloodline and indeed, she's pretty convinced that Stannis is AAR.  At least she is selling it to the population that way.  I've thought that she essentially subverted the stag under her religious symbolism of the fiery heart in a fanatical gesture to subdue the small folk and make believers out of them.  Threat of being burned at the stake notwithstanding.  lol.   The Baratheon bloodline doesn't have a particularly fiery element to their temperment; but rather a stormy temperment:

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing. Got Eddard II

Robert Baratheon took a long swallow of beer, tossed the empty horn onto his sleeping furs, wiped his mouth with the back of his hand, and said darkly, "Fat? Fat, is it? Is that how you speak to your king?" He let go his laughter, sudden as a storm. "Ah, damn you, Ned, why are you always right?"  GoT Eddard VII

Whlle Robert's temperment can be described as stormy; Ned Stark's anger is a 'cold rage'  Something that Jon Snow also exhibits:

"—did not prevent him from fathering a bastard. Did it?"

Jon was cold with rage. "Can I go?"

"You go when I tell you to go." - aGoT Jon III

 

While I can see Melisandre raising Stannis in the manner of Beric Dondarrion to give him a fiery heart;  It would seem to me that he would be one of several false AAR's in the story.  If the mixing of fire and ice bloodlines is a prerequisite; it doesn't quite fit even with Rhaelle Targaryen as grandmother.  The symbolism of Renly's forest green armor and golden antlered helm would seem to point to Garth Greenhands and the 'green blood' of the first men. Indeed, I think the 'green bloodline' is the important bloodline for the storm lords or alternately the horned lords, as well as the Starks. 

 

There is disagreement even on his name. Garth Greenhand, we call him, but in the oldest tales he is named Garth Greenhair, or simply Garth the Green. Some stories say he had green hands, green hair, or green skin overall. (A few even give him antlers, like a stag.) Others tell us that he dressed in green from head to foot, and certainly this is how he is most commonly depicted in paintings, tapestries, and sculptures.. - WoIaF

 

The idea of a fiery greenseer is intriguing since we have Dany's vision of the man limned in flame and the great wolf during Mirri Maaz Duur's ritual and Melisandre's vision of Jon Snow:

 

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen. - DwD Melisandre  

 

No, Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn't, but when she opened her mouth, a long wail of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames. aGoT Dany VIII 

 

Their visions are strikingly similar and while Melisandre can identify Jon Snow 'limned in flame'; Dany has never seen him to recognize him. Seeing someone limned in flame wouldn't be unusual if fire is your medium for 'seeing'.  It doesn't necessarily imply that Jon has been or will be transformed by fire; but it does imply that Dany can see visions in flame in the manner of a maegi or Melisandre.

 

And while I think Jon is being set up as the Winter King and the next horned lord having been presented with the mysterious cracked horn and dragonglass cache; I think it's more likely that he will be the Snow Storm rather than the fiery greenseer.  It's curious that this particular horn can't be sounded and Ghost has no voice.  I suspect that if the horn is repaired and winded; Ghost will find his voice and the wild hunt will begin.

 

 

[GyantSpyder]

On ‎11‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 1:04 PM, ravenous reader said:

On ‎11‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 0:25 PM, GyantSpyder said:

Certainly if you think of the weirwoods as a "weir," it makes sense that humanity hasn't technologically advanced in thousands of years.

Can you elaborate?

A weir is one of two things:

1. A kind of dam that lets the water level rise until it reaches a certain point, but then discharges the water slowly at a predictable rate to prevent flooding.
2. A wooden construction (an enclosure, a bunch of stakes, there are a few ways to build them) that helps trap fish to make a particular spot on a river good for fishing.

The weirwoods and the worship of the Old Gods, with its human sacrifice, might be seen as a form of "regulation" of the human population, which otherwise might "flood" and overwhelm the Children of the Forest (or some other entity that is responsible for the weirwoods, like a mysterious magical presence deep in the bowels of the earth or something).

Or it could even be a ecological thing happening rather than a war of species, where somebody on this world knows that an excess of humans and of human technology (and perhaps of dragons and dragon-related magic, like Valyria), could create environmental disaster (like the Red Waste).

The unknowing humans caught in the weir like fish could also be a source of food for the magical part of this whole shebang that drinks human blood. Because we know somebody is doing it. Blood is magical and all that.

Since we know they have powers related to the mind, and to dreams, and of course they have a religion that exerts an unclear amount of influence over human behavior, they might be checking human technological development in a similar way that they check population - keeping the human population manageable, controllable, and incapable of mounting any real resistance to whoever is actually in charge here, whether it's the Children of the Forest, the Others, or somebody else (perhaps some mysterious puppet master presence deep in the caves beneath the earth). Perhaps they reduce the enthusiasm for technological progress in some way - perhaps if technological progress gets above a certain point, they discharge the excess humanity in some way to get it back to manageable levels (Maybe that's the Others? That doesn't quite feel right, but it's a thought.).

But yeah, the point is that weirs don't block, but weirs are an obstacle. They control progress and regulate the intensity of something dangerous, and they keep living things that don't know they are being kept, for the harvest.

To go by the etymology, weirwood could mean "Tree of Damming Up," "Tree of Fencing In," "Protector Tree," or "Tree of Defense."

Basically it means Westeros when the Andals or the R'hl'orr'ites aren't making a concerted effort to go around chopping down or burning all the weirwoods, is a sort of human farm, fishing hole or hunting preserve, except the humans are not the fishers or hunters, they are the wildlife being managed at a predictable level by some other intelligence.

[ravenous reader]

31 minutes ago, GyantSpyder said:

A weir is one of two things:

1. A kind of dam that lets the water level rise until it reaches a certain point, but then discharges the water slowly at a predictable rate to prevent flooding.
2. A wooden construction (an enclosure, a bunch of stakes, there are a few ways to build them) that helps trap fish to make a particular spot on a river good for fishing.

The weirwoods and the worship of the Old Gods, with its human sacrifice, might be seen as a form of "regulation" of the human population, which otherwise might "flood" and overwhelm the Children of the Forest (or some other entity that is responsible for the weirwoods, like a mysterious magical presence deep in the bowels of the earth or something).

Or it could even be a ecological thing happening rather than a war of species, where somebody on this world knows that an excess of humans and of human technology (and perhaps of dragons and dragon-related magic, like Valyria), could create environmental disaster (like the Red Waste).

The unknowing humans caught in the weir like fish could also be a source of food for the magical part of this whole shebang that drinks human blood. Because we know somebody is doing it. Blood is magical and all that. 

Since we know they have powers related to the mind, and to dreams, and of course they have a religion that exerts an unclear amount of influence over human behavior, they might be checking human technological development in a similar way that they check population - keeping the human population manageable, controllable, and incapable of mounting any real resistance to whoever is actually in charge here, whether it's the Children of the Forest, the Others, or somebody else (perhaps some mysterious puppet master presence deep in the caves beneath the earth). Perhaps they reduce the enthusiasm for technological progress in some way - perhaps if technological progress gets above a certain point, they discharge the excess humanity in some way to get it back to manageable levels (Maybe that's the Others? That doesn't quite feel right, but it's a thought.).

But yeah, the point is that weirs don't block, but weirs are an obstacle. They control progress and regulate the intensity of something dangerous, and they keep living things that don't know they are being kept, for the harvest.

To go by the etymology, weirwood could mean "Tree of Damming Up," "Tree of Fencing In," "Protector Tree," or "Tree of Defense."

Basically it means Westeros when the Andals or the R'hl'orr'ites aren't making a concerted effort to go around chopping down or burning all the weirwoods, is a sort of human farm, fishing hole or hunting preserve, except the humans are not the fishers or hunters, they are the wildlife being managed at a predictable level by some other intelligence.

Thanks for this -- one of the best posts I've read!

The GRRM switcheroo of the 'hunters becoming the hunted' is one of his principal themes.

Love the two connotations of 'weir' as regulatory tap and fishing net.  Regarding the latter, the text abounds in a number of such images.  For example, Mance is burned in a wicker cage (made up of weirwood, among others) and Bloodraven and Bran can be thought of as two fishes or alternatively water birds pinioned by the penetrating lattice formation of the weirwood-- Bloodraven is a kind of water serpent with his eye glowing like the last ember of Valyria's fire (this echoes many legends, including that of Yggdrasil in which a dragon is said to be chained in a cave beneath a tree) and Bran half a Tully and having lost the use of his legs is a kind of mermaid as I've argued here (it's a long post, so scroll down to the purple heading 'The Wedding' for the relevant discussion!)   Then there's Bran being carried around in a swaying basket -- essentially a birdcage -- on Hodor's back as @Wizz-The-Smith has noted, and similarly Jon and the rest of the crows of the Night's Watch in their swaying basket contraption-elevator at the Wall in addition to the mechanism at the Eyrie bringing symbolic birds (the robins, mockingbirds, falcons and 'little birds' like Sansa)  in addition to actual foodstuffs up and down.  I'm sure you can think of others!  @LmL also has some interesting thoughts surrounding his recognition of the archetypal 'burning man in a tree' or 'burning tree in a man,' which he connects to his 'fiery greenseer' conception.  The way I see it it's a two-way street:  humanity harvests the immortal fire of the gods; similarly the gods harvest the mortal fire of humanity (a 'cooked meal', to translate your terminology..?)

[GyantSpyder]

One idea I've been mulling over for a while is to really hash out the animal imagery from an assumption that the human-centric world and the children-centric world reflected in The Pact (the open spaces versus the deep woods), speak as much to a conflict between ecosystems as to a conflict between peoples - on the assumption that the children would want to spread the weirwoods all over the world so that the Pact would let them control the world.

In particular I was talking to somebody recently about national parks and Native Americans and how European-Americans assumed that the North American continent as they encountered it was its "pre-human" state, just because plague had wiped out so much of the native population right as they showed up, and didn't take into account the many ways in which Native Americans shaped the natural environment, like controlled forest fires, for example.

Another big example of that which came to mind were the Great Plains, and how some Native American peoples herded, hunted and worshipped the buffalo as a sacred animal, similar to how the Dothraki worship and ride the horse.

One notable thing about hooved animals that graze and browse and range long distances is they prevent the growth of trees. The Great Plains are not possible without the buffalo. So there are no trees in the Dothraki Sea - and no other gods, either, thanks to the Dothraki and their horses.

So, if you take the wide open spaces, and you take the forests, and you just leave them there, the forests will eventually grow to mostly cover the wide-open spaces, thus reducing the amount of land held by humanity in The Pact gradually to very little. The way to prevent this is to introduce animals like horses or buffalo to the open spaces that will keep the trees from growing,

Another reason this came to mind was I was thinking about the conflict between the Brackens and the Blackwoods, which is so old and so entrenched and presented as something of a microcosm of the larger conflicts of the story (not the least of which because Bloodraven is a Blackwood and Bittersteel was a Bracken).

The Blackwood sigil is a tree, and the Bracken sigil is a horse. And were trees to hold grudges, horses might be seen as their natural enemies.

So I was going to go through all the sigils and catalogue the animals, to see if it reflects a bias toward either the "children" ecology or the "human" ecology, in line with The Pact, or if there are any patterns -

Does this live in the forest? Examples - wolves, deer, foxes, bears, moose

Does this live on the plains? Examples - lions, horses, hedgehogs, the ploughman of Darry

Is this animal a symbol of human sacrifice? Black goat of Qohor, creepy lamb with goblet

And then once you have a list of all that, you look for patterns -

Like, oh, the Ryswells' symbol is horses, and they have that story of being really committed to the Night's Watch, which also cuts down trees that grow close to the wall.

Or, oh, Rolly was raised by the Caswells, but there was a conflict between him and the Lord, and he fights for the Golden Company - the Caswell symbol is a centaur - only half a horse.

Or, oh, the Lamb Men hate the Dothraki, and House Stokeworth also have a Lamb as their symbol, and their words are "Proud to be faithful" - and the lamb has this creepy goblet that is probably symbolically full of human blood that they pour out for the old gods as they sacrifice themselves. Will the Red Lamb backstab Barristan Selmy, because he's on team "children?"

And of course Kraken have nothing to do with forests, and are not fished for as food, and the Ironborn uniquely among the First Men seem to have never succumbed to the worship of the Old Gods, and their islands provide a refuge from any wayward forest that might want to spread to their habitations. And iron cuts down trees, and they cut down trees to make their ships. Etc. etc.

A lot of it would no doubt end up spurious, and it's such a big question I'd probably never get around to really getting through it, but it's interesting and fun.

[LmL]

On 11/22/2016 at 8:20 AM, ravenous reader said:

Subconsciously, they're not done for GRRM.  Tolkienesque tree personification and animation imagery permeates the text.

The 'walking trees' in this case are the 'white walkers' otherwise known as the 'Others.'

Note there is a fluidity between tree and water states.  'Green magic' can transform 'earth'=trees to 'water' and vice versa:

The Others are described as a rising tide or threatening flood.  In this scenario, the wall represents the dam or 'weir' (as in 'weirwood') holding back the 'waters', or 'trees' depending on your perspective:

Should the horn summon the Others -- summon a rising tide -- then the Wall falling is equivalent to the dam breaking.

 

I'm leaning towards the second option.

 

Dragonbinder = cometbinder?

Some think so. I believe that is how the Wall will fall, in any case. 

[ravenous reader]

Just now, LmL said:

Dragonbinder = cometbinder?

Some think so. I believe that is how the Wall will fall, in any case. 

Hi @LmL.  It's nice to see you around, thought we'd lost you in the flood...

Learning the True Tongue (the tale 'not worth repeating' of Bran the Builder) is about singing the song of the earth -- which by extension is the song of the spheres -- all celestial bodies!

[LmL]

On 11/22/2016 at 1:58 PM, LynnS said:

This is an interesting idea.  I have wondered why Melisandre and Thoros were assigned to Baratheons.  This implies that she thinks Azor Ahai will come from this bloodline and indeed, she's pretty convinced that Stannis is AAR.  At least she is selling it to the population that way.  I've thought that she essentially subverted the stag under her religious symbolism of the fiery heart in a fanatical gesture to subdue the small folk and make believers out of them.  Threat of being burned at the stake notwithstanding.  lol.   The Baratheon bloodline doesn't have a particularly fiery element to their temperment; but rather a stormy temperment:

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing. Got Eddard II

Robert Baratheon took a long swallow of beer, tossed the empty horn onto his sleeping furs, wiped his mouth with the back of his hand, and said darkly, "Fat? Fat, is it? Is that how you speak to your king?" He let go his laughter, sudden as a storm. "Ah, damn you, Ned, why are you always right?"  GoT Eddard VII

Whlle Robert's temperment can be described as stormy; Ned Stark's anger is a 'cold rage'  Something that Jon Snow also exhibits:

"—did not prevent him from fathering a bastard. Did it?"

Jon was cold with rage. "Can I go?"

"You go when I tell you to go." - aGoT Jon III

 

While I can see Melisandre raising Stannis in the manner of Beric Dondarrion to give him a fiery heart;  It would seem to me that he would be one of several false AAR's in the story.  If the mixing of fire and ice bloodlines is a prerequisite; it doesn't quite fit even with Rhaelle Targaryen as grandmother.  The symbolism of Renly's forest green armor and golden antlered helm would seem to point to Garth Greenhands and the 'green blood' of the first men. Indeed, I think the 'green bloodline' is the important bloodline for the storm lords or alternately the horned lords, as well as the Starks. 

 

There is disagreement even on his name. Garth Greenhand, we call him, but in the oldest tales he is named Garth Greenhair, or simply Garth the Green. Some stories say he had green hands, green hair, or green skin overall. (A few even give him antlers, like a stag.) Others tell us that he dressed in green from head to foot, and certainly this is how he is most commonly depicted in paintings, tapestries, and sculptures.. - WoIaF

 

The idea of a fiery greenseer is intriguing since we have Dany's vision of the man limned in flame and the great wolf during Mirri Maaz Duur's ritual and Melisandre's vision of Jon Snow:

 

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen. - DwD Melisandre  

 

No, Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn't, but when she opened her mouth, a long wail of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames. aGoT Dany VIII 

 

Their visions are strikingly similar and while Melisandre can identify Jon Snow 'limned in flame'; Dany has never seen him to recognize him. Seeing someone limned in flame wouldn't be unusual if fire is your medium for 'seeing'.  It doesn't necessarily imply that Jon has been or will be transformed by fire; but it does imply that Dany can see visions in flame in the manner of a maegi or Melisandre.

 

And while I think Jon is being set up as the Winter King and the next horned lord having been presented with the mysterious cracked horn and dragonglass cache; I think it's more likely that he will be the Snow Storm rather than the fiery greenseer.  It's curious that this particular horn can't be sounded and Ghost has no voice.  I suspect that if the horn is repaired and winded; Ghost will find his voice and the wild hunt will begin.

 

 

As it happens... I am working on this very thing. You almost have it right, in my estimation - the King of Winter is basically frozen fire. Ned's sword, black Ice, tells the tale - it's ice, but rally its frozen fire.  Jon will be the next King of Winter, but the King of Winter's destiny is to burn. This is a huge breakthrough I made the other day while researching this - there is a celtic (and now Wiccan) practice of making a green man from the extra shoots of your garden in the fall, keeping that green man as he dries out over the winter (during which time he is called the King of Winter), but then in the spring, at Beltane, you burn him to usher in spring. That is the story of the King of Winter as an archetype - a dead green man who burns to bring the spring. Jon will be an undead skinchanger zombie, resurrected by fire, and thus he will actually make a stunningly accurate king of winter.

This also unites the scarecrow brothers (who burn in Jon's AA dream) with the idea of the wicker man king of winter, an it also explains why the wight Jon burned in Mormont's chamber was described as burning like old wood and old straw... because Jon dreams of that wight with his father's face.  His father, a burning dead straw man king of winter. 

I could go on but I wrote a whole essay (or two) about these ideas. @ravenous reader, my "picking up your green sea / greener baton" essay is coming, but I got caught up writing about skinchanger zombies and green men - and actually getting these ideas out first will make the green sea essay easier to present. This is the heart of the burning greenseer idea, I believe. Essentially, the idea of a zombie last hero is George's version the resurrected corn king / horned god / green man folklore. Instead of a freshly reborn corn king in the spring, we get a resurrected zombie corn king in the winter, fighting to bring the spring. The winter is the death phase of the corn king cycle, and so the King of Winter is a dead green man. It's pretty cool stuff, i think you will certainly dig it. I did one episode already, with a full expose on the King of Winter coming in a couple days. 

https://lucifermeanslightbringer.com/2016/11/28/the-sacred-order-of-green-zombies-the-last-hero/

[LmL]

10 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Hi @LmL.  It's nice to see you around, thought we'd lost you in the flood...

Learning the True Tongue (the tale 'not worth repeating' of Bran the Builder) is about singing the song of the earth -- which by extension is the song of the spheres -- all celestial bodies!

Sometimes I have to unplug from the forums for a week or two to get a new episode finished. I just can't get it done if I am weaving in and out of all the great threads here. But I am never gone for long.

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, LmL said:

As it happens... I am working on this very thing. You almost have it right, in my estimation - the King of Winter is basically frozen fire. Ned's sword, black Ice, tells the tale - it's ice, but rally its frozen fire.  Jon will be the next King of Winter, but the King of Winter's destiny is to burn. This is a huge breakthrough I made the other day while researching this - there is a celtic (and now Wiccan) practice of making a green man from the extra shoots of your garden in the fall, keeping that green man as he dries out over the winter (during which time he is called the King of Winter), but then in the spring, at Beltane, you burn him to usher in spring. That is the story of the King of Winter as an archetype - a dead green man who burns to bring the spring. Jon will be an undead skinchanger zombie, resurrected by fire, and thus he will actually make a stunningly accurate king of winter.

This also unites the scarecrow brothers (who burn in Jon's AA dream) with the idea of the wicker man king of winter, an it also explains why the wight Jon burned in Mormont's chamber was described as burning like old wood and old straw... because Jon dreams of that wight with his father's face.  His father, a burning dead straw man king of winter. 

I could go on but I wrote a whole essay (or two) about these ideas. @ravenous reader, my "picking up your green sea / greener baton" essay is coming, but I got caught up writing about skinchanger zombies and green men - and actually getting these ideas out first will make the green sea essay easier to present. This is the heart of the burning greenseer idea, I believe. Essentially, the idea of a zombie last hero is George's version the resurrected corn king / horned god / green man folklore. Instead of a freshly reborn corn king in the spring, we get a resurrected zombie corn king in the winter, fighting to bring the spring. The winter is the death phase of the corn king cycle, and so the King of Winter is a dead green man. It's pretty cool stuff, i think you will certainly dig it. I did one episode already, with a full expose on the King of Winter coming in a couple days. 

https://lucifermeanslightbringer.com/2016/11/28/the-sacred-order-of-green-zombies-the-last-hero/

I'm not far apart form you on this LML.  I see Jon's destiny to become the Red Sword in the final act.  He will likely be transformed by fire at this point to wield a fiery blade. R'hllor has marked him out as his instrument and his right hand and arm have been burned in the fight with Othor. You could consider him the Fiery Hand of R'hllor.  It is the green bloodline going bath to Garth Greenhands that is important to the Stark line  rather than the fire bloodline, that belongs to Dany.  That would make Jon both the Green Hand of the society of Green Men and the Fiery Hand of R'hllor. 

I will read your essay with gusto!  I'm sure I will love it, as always.

[LmL]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not far apart form you on this LML.  I see Jon's destiny to become the Red Sword in the final act.  He will likely be transformed by fire at this point to wield a fiery blade. R'hllor has marked him out as his instrument and his right hand and arm have been burned in the fight with Othor. You could consider him the Fiery Hand of R'hllor.  It is the green bloodline going bath to Garth Greenhands that is important to the Stark line  rather than the fire bloodline, that belongs to Dany.  That would make Jon both the Green Hand of the society of Green Men and the Fiery Hand of R'hllor. 

I will read your essay with gusto!  I'm sure I will love it, as always.

Yes that's all consistent with what I am seeing. You're dead on about the fiery hand symbol, yes. 

Like I was saying, the King of Winter is like a dead and frozen Azor Ahai type, a dead corn king. He has fire, but it's frozen, just like obsidian and Valyrian steel. That's why the King of Winter's crown is made from metals "dark and strong to fight the cold," because that is his MO. Black ice, v steel, dragonglass - it's all frozen fire. The prefect unity of ice and fire apparently kills the Others. Th Others are a inverted form of frozen fire - instead of fire cooled and hardened into place, they have simple made fire cold. That is why they have blue star eyes, I think - it's like they swallowed fire and turned it cold. Hence, the many instances of "nothing burns like the cold." 

All of this makes me wonder if Jon will first rise as a cold wight, and then fire magic might be used to drive out the blue star eye possession so Jon's spirit can take back over his body. I am considering multiple possibilities for his resurrection (trying to be scholarly), but it really seems like fire has to be a part of it. Also, fire could be used to drive Ghost and Jon's spirit from the dire wolf body, a la Orell getting booted from his eagle my Mel's fire magic. 

And of course, we have yet to so greenseers raise the dead, which I am pretty sure they can. I think Radio Westeros is also right that Bran will be involved in raising Jon. 

[Jon Fossoway]

Some say it'll wake Winter, the original Ice Dragon the King of Winter rode into battle. According to the wiki, the only acknowledged 'King of Winter' is Brandon the Breaker, who also assaulted the Wall and took out the Night's King, resulting in Winter being sealed into the Wall and the Night's King banished beyond it. Magic war, anyone?

[LynnS]

43 minutes ago, LmL said:

(trying to be scholarly),

What do you mean trying to be scholarly? LOL!  You are another of those rare birds at Westeros who can give a master class on your chosen subject.  Something that I enjoy very much and keeps me coming back.  I appreciate the generosity of spirit, LML and the good humor.  I still maintain that you should do voice animation for Hollywood or at the very least, Martin's next audio book.

Your thoughtful reply requires a thoughtful answer and I will comply after grocery shopping, gift shopping and house decorating.  The great-nephew is coming for a visit and it won't do if the place isn't established as a Christmas wonderland.  Cheers!

[LmL]

14 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What do you mean trying to be scholarly? LOL!  You are another of those rare birds at Westeros who can give a master class on your chosen subject.  Something that I enjoy very much and keeps me coming back.  I appreciate the generosity of spirit, LML and the good humor.  I still maintain that you should do voice animation for Hollywood or at the very least, Martin's next audio book.

Your thoughtful reply requires a thoughtful answer and I will comply after grocery shopping, gift shopping and house decorating.  The great-nephew is coming for a visit and it won't do if the place isn't established as a Christmas wonderland.  Cheers!

Take your time, everyone is busy this time year and I am no exception. By scholarly I simply mean that I try to make it a habit of presenting alternate possibilities, even when I have a favored interpretation, mainly because my goal isn't to be right about everything, but more to get people talking about symbolism. I think Jon will be a fire undead and I think he will need a dark v steel sword to fight the Others, but I could see Jon as a Coldhands wielding Dawn too, so I try to keep an open mind.

[White Ravens]

On 11/28/2016 at 1:46 PM, GyantSpyder said:

A weir is one of two things:

1. A kind of dam that lets the water level rise until it reaches a certain point, but then discharges the water slowly at a predictable rate to prevent flooding.
2. A wooden construction (an enclosure, a bunch of stakes, there are a few ways to build them) that helps trap fish to make a particular spot on a river good for fishing.

The weirwoods and the worship of the Old Gods, with its human sacrifice, might be seen as a form of "regulation" of the human population, which otherwise might "flood" and overwhelm the Children of the Forest (or some other entity that is responsible for the weirwoods, like a mysterious magical presence deep in the bowels of the earth or something).

Or it could even be a ecological thing happening rather than a war of species, where somebody on this world knows that an excess of humans and of human technology (and perhaps of dragons and dragon-related magic, like Valyria), could create environmental disaster (like the Red Waste).

The unknowing humans caught in the weir like fish could also be a source of food for the magical part of this whole shebang that drinks human blood. Because we know somebody is doing it. Blood is magical and all that.

Since we know they have powers related to the mind, and to dreams, and of course they have a religion that exerts an unclear amount of influence over human behavior, they might be checking human technological development in a similar way that they check population - keeping the human population manageable, controllable, and incapable of mounting any real resistance to whoever is actually in charge here, whether it's the Children of the Forest, the Others, or somebody else (perhaps some mysterious puppet master presence deep in the caves beneath the earth). Perhaps they reduce the enthusiasm for technological progress in some way - perhaps if technological progress gets above a certain point, they discharge the excess humanity in some way to get it back to manageable levels (Maybe that's the Others? That doesn't quite feel right, but it's a thought.).

But yeah, the point is that weirs don't block, but weirs are an obstacle. They control progress and regulate the intensity of something dangerous, and they keep living things that don't know they are being kept, for the harvest.

To go by the etymology, weirwood could mean "Tree of Damming Up," "Tree of Fencing In," "Protector Tree," or "Tree of Defense."

Basically it means Westeros when the Andals or the R'hl'orr'ites aren't making a concerted effort to go around chopping down or burning all the weirwoods, is a sort of human farm, fishing hole or hunting preserve, except the humans are not the fishers or hunters, they are the wildlife being managed at a predictable level by some other intelligence.

I took a slightly different etymological approach and looked at the origins of the word werewolf which is phonetically similar to  weirwolf.

Quote

late Old English werewulf ; the first element has usually been identified with Old English wer ‘man.’ In modern use the word has been revived through folklore studies.

So... 

weirwolf = manwolf

weirwood = mantree

 

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

By scholarly I simply mean that I try to make it a habit of presenting alternate possibilities, even when I have a favored interpretation, mainly because my goal isn't to be right about everything, but more to get people talking about symbolism. I think Jon will be a fire undead and I think he will need a dark v steel sword to fight the Others, but I could see Jon as a Coldhands wielding Dawn too, so I try to keep an open mind.

So you're a 'humble bastard' too!  

[ravenous reader]

44 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

weirwolf = manwolf

weirwood = mantree

Nice.  Anyone who still doesn't believe GRRM is heavy into punning...

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, LmL said:

Yes that's all consistent with what I am seeing. You're dead on about the fiery hand symbol, yes. 

Like I was saying, the King of Winter is like a dead and frozen Azor Ahai type, a dead corn king. He has fire, but it's frozen, just like obsidian and Valyrian steel. That's why the King of Winter's crown is made from metals "dark and strong to fight the cold," because that is his MO. Black ice, v steel, dragonglass - it's all frozen fire. The prefect unity of ice and fire apparently kills the Others. Th Others are a inverted form of frozen fire - instead of fire cooled and hardened into place, they have simple made fire cold. That is why they have blue star eyes, I think - it's like they swallowed fire and turned it cold. Hence, the many instances of "nothing burns like the cold." 

All of this makes me wonder if Jon will first rise as a cold wight, and then fire magic might be used to drive out the blue star eye possession so Jon's spirit can take back over his body. I am considering multiple possibilities for his resurrection (trying to be scholarly), but it really seems like fire has to be a part of it. Also, fire could be used to drive Ghost and Jon's spirit from the dire wolf body, a la Orell getting booted from his eagle my Mel's fire magic. 

And of course, we have yet to so greenseers raise the dead, which I am pretty sure they can. I think Radio Westeros is also right that Bran will be involved in raising Jon. 

These are all interesting questions. I go back to Sam's encounter with a WW and stabs him with the obsidian blade.  The blade is too cold to handle afterwards as though the cold binding the WW together was drawn out into the stone or the magic binding was broken.  The cold eventually neutralizes and the stone can be handled again.  So rather than injecting the firey aspect from the stone; the stone draws out the cold.

So I wonder if dragonsteel is different in that it can either draw either the cold or fire to itself and maintain it rather than dissipating or if the sword and the man are one; does the man have to be transformed by fire or ice for the blade to maintain that element. 

There is also the question of fire mages having the ability to draw the fire out of obsidian.  Mel does this with the 'ruby/obsididian' at her throat; something that Quaithe tells Dany that the fire mage climbing the ladder wasn't able to do before the comet and Dany's arrival.

Luwin tells Bran that the CotF used to duel with glass swords and I wonder if the red sword of heros is an obsidian sword of some type.  Perhaps something unique like the Dawn sword.     

 

[LmL]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

These are all interesting questions. I go back to Sam's encounter with a WW and stabs him with the obsidian blade.  The blade is too cold to handle afterwards as though the cold binding the WW together was drawn out into the stone or the magic binding was broken.  The cold eventually neutralizes and the stone can be handled again.  So rather than injecting the firey aspect from the stone; the stone draws out the cold.

So I wonder if dragonsteel is different in that it can either draw either the cold or fire to itself and maintain it rather than dissipating or if the sword and the man are one; does the man have to be transformed by fire or ice for the blade to maintain that element. 

There is also the question of fire mages having the ability to draw the fire out of obsidian.  Mel does this with the 'ruby/obsididian' at her throat; something that Quaithe tells Dany that the fire mage climbing the ladder wasn't able to do before the comet and Dany's arrival.

Luwin tells Bran that the CotF used to duel with glass swords and I wonder if the red sword of heros is an obsidian sword of some type.  Perhaps something unique like the Dawn sword.     

 

Wait, what now? I am pretty sure that was a metaphor about sorcery, wasn't it?

(scrambles for kindle)

 

Edit: oh wait, duh, I get it. You're saying Luwin's metaphor might have had a double meaning, sure. 

Your point about drawing out the cold is a good one, that's something I noticed too.  Although, there is a hissing and smoking where the obsidian contacts the Other, and those things imply fire or burning.  It could be doing both, since "frozen fire" implies an ice / fire duality. But there is no doubt that it DID suck the cold out of the Other, and it's odd people don't talk bout that more. It's interesting that we did not need the dragonglass to give off fire or light as a glass candle would to kill the Others. Weill Lightbringer need to actually be on fire? It seems so.. but then I suspect there is more to Lightbringer than just combat. 

One of my fav crackpots is the idea of Dawn as some sort of high power glass candle, and that Dany will be the one to use it in this way. Her ancestors did have the swords of pale fire after all. 

[LynnS]

20 minutes ago, LmL said:

Wait, what now? I am pretty sure that was a metaphor about sorcery, wasn't it?

(scrambles for kindle)

 

Edit: oh wait, duh, I get it. You're saying Luwin's metaphor might have had a double meaning, sure. 

Your point about drawing out the cold is a good one, that's something I noticed too.  Although, there is a hissing and smoking where the obsidian contacts the Other, and those things imply fire or burning.  It could be doing both, since "frozen fire" implies an ice / fire duality. But there is no doubt that it DID suck the cold out of the Other, and it's odd people don't talk bout that more. It's interesting that we did not need the dragonglass to give off fire or light as a glass candle would to kill the Others. Weill Lightbringer need to actually be on fire? It seems so.. but then I suspect there is more to Lightbringer than just combat. 

One of my fav crackpots is the idea of Dawn as some sort of high power glass candle, and that Dany will be the one to use it in this way. Her ancestors did have the swords of pale fire after all. 

I'm with you on that one!

No Luwin specifically says that the cotf used to duel with glass sword in the context of his discussion with Bran about obsidian.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"Old Nan says the children knew the songs of the trees, that they could fly like birds and swim like fish and talk to the animals," Bran said. "She says that they made music so beautiful that it made you cry like a little baby just to hear it."

"And all this they did with magic," Maester Luwin said, distracted. "I wish they were here now. A spell would heal my arm less painfully, and they could talk to Shaggy dog and tell him not to bite." He gave the big black wolf an angry glance out of the corner of his eye. "Take a lesson, Bran. The man who trusts in spells is dueling with a glass sword. As the children did. Here, let me show you something." He stood abruptly, crossed the room, and returned with a green jar in his good hand. "Have a look at these," he said as he pulled the stopper and shook out a handful of shiny black arrowheads.

Bran picked one up. "It's made of glass." Curious, Rickon drifted closer to peer over the table.

This puts me in mind of both the legend of the last hero recieving a sword from the Cotf and Waymar Royce's duel with the WW  in the prologue.  When the Waymar challenges the WW... "Let's dance then" .... the WW takes a moment to look over Royce's weapon.  Instead of being attacked by all the WW; it's one on one - a duel!

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

Ser Waymar met him bravely. "Dance with me then." He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night's Watch.

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

    The WW took a moment to assess Waymar's weapon. 

And so I wonder if the Dawn sword is that original blade.  There is such a thing as white obsidian.

[LmL]

I don't think that's what Luwin meant - I think he pretty meant that the children trusted in spells. He's warning Bran not to trust in spells, not to avoid glass swords. 

Of course, in terms of a double meaning, that doesn't matter, because we know that spells are often worked on glass swords, and we know the children had glass knives at least. 

As for Dawn being a sword of the Others or a sword made of ice magic with some tie to the Others - yes. I have pages and pages of notes with every quote about the Others, Dawn, milkglass, the KG (who parallel the Others), the crystals of the septons and the Warrior's Sons, the Wall, Alyssa's Tears and the tears of Lys, the Ghost Grass... all of these things share the same line of symbolism. I even made table one time to show all the similar language. I am about 75% sold on Dawn being the original Ice and somehow made with Ice magic. It isn't just white dragonglass or milkglass though - it shares all the properties of Valyrian steel, so it is some kind of metal. I like the idea of adding dragonglass or using it somehow in the forging process, though that might not be necessary.