The Horn of Winter was never made to make the wall fall...

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

LynnS's thoughts about the Wall were discussed here Heresy 189

I haven't looked at this for some time and it needs some revision and updating.

[LmL]

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Funny that you should mention it, @Pain killer Jane and I were recently discussing Patchface's 'oh oh oh' which I had highlighted as significant being the triplet (GRRM's favorite number is magical number 3) punctuating almost all of his diabolic prophetic ditties, with PK Jane pointing out that this when reversed can be 'ho ho ho' -- can't believe I missed that!

Yep, I saw that whole conversation and that's what I was referring to. It makes sense to include Santa and Holly King ideas in the general ASOIAF 'King of Winter.'

 

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Besides being an allusion to the deep, throaty laughter with which Santa is associated, the 'ho ho hoh' -- otherwise known as the devil's bluster (see relevant section on p. 69) -- is the heralding cry (or laugh, again depending on your inclination...it's a duality) prefacing or announcing the devil's stage entry during Medieval mystery plays in which the devil, God the father, and God the son (again that recurring constellation of '3') appear on stage together.  Is it any wonder then that 'Santa' is an anagram of 'Satan' -- another kind of 'reversal' or 'inversion' --  and putting that together with the pagan solar/fertility god festival, bringing us back to your central mythological motif 'Lucifer means Lightbringer'?  Talking of fertility gods and green men, you might enjoy this modern reworking of the myth!

Patchface therefore as GRRM's patchwork of many of these myths is a demonic figure and greenseer 'stand-in' to boot -- yes, all greenseers are demonic; all greenseers are fiery, even when they're seemingly cold-forged. As @LynnS has suggested, perhaps the red-and-green patchwork Harlequin-type tattoo Patchface wears might be symbolic of this greenseer duality of ice (or 'green' magic) and fire (the 'red').  What's your take on the symbolism inherent in the red-and-green combination?  

I actually talked about Robert's laughter and Coldhands rattling voice a bit in part of the green zombie series, King of Winter, Lord of Death. Thanks for giving me the background on it though, I hadn't really heard of that. I'm hip tot he way Santa fits into the horned god mythology, and how Satan does, but hadn't heard of the devil's bluster. In a way I am glad I did not show this essay to you in advance or I can see it would have been much much longer.  I will mention some of the Holly King ideas and the horned god resurrection int he third part, however, which I am working on now. 

As for Patchface... I talked about him in Part 2 also. Essentially, before he drowned, he was a child who liked to sing and do magic and speak in many tongues, so when you add that to the red and green motley and the antler helm and the gift of prophecy... he's pretty obviously a horned lord green man greenseer type - who drowned. This is of course a general manifestation of the idea of sacrificing to gain wisdom, as you say (I always think of Odin as the great example of this, and I have a full Odin - greenseer - Bloodraven episode coming of course), and of the idea of shamanic ecstasy and madness leading to prophetic wisdom. He's also used as a proxy to suggest green men in metaphors - when he suggests leading the ranging into the north, he's standing in for the idea of a green man / horned person last hero, leading a ranging into the cold dead lands... and of course Jon says he will lead it, and he's a last hero / green man zombie type of course. He loans his helm to Cressen so he can take the signature throat wound - strangulation for him - while being sacrificed. The choking laughter and throat wounds are all the same related ball of symbols, as you know. Mel also sees Patches with the "skulls all around him," exactly as she does Jon Snow. (Interesting that she interprets the skulls around Patchface to mean PF is a danger, while for Jon she thinks its Jon who is in danger..)  And how much do you wanna bet Patchface gets fed to the fire at some point, or perhaps almost fed to the fire as this works the same way?

 

Also, note that Cressen dies from the strangler, same as Joff, and Joff wears a stag crown as well. Off actually features as the 13th in a couple of LH metaphors as well, so it's more of the same. 

As for the 'fool,' I've noticed that certain people are dubbed fools at key times. It figures in Brienne's arc and Dick Crabb calling Ser Galladon "a great fool" for not using his magic sword. I noticed this long ago and figured there was some sort of 'fool' component to the character archetype of AA & the LH, but I never had time to research it and figure it out. I mean, that happens to me all the time - I actually do not have an extensive background in mythology apart form what I have studied in my own, and so I frequently have to play catch up and research things intensely as I pick up their thread in ASOIAF. I am learning in from you guys about the wild hunt, for example. I picked up on Herne the Hunter as a strong parallel to Coldhands, so that makes a lot of sense.  In any case, I do not have the time to follow every lead I see, but I knew there as something there with the fool... glad to se you expand on it. Tying it the madness of shamanic ecstasy kind of helps it make sense to me, actually. It's also the foolishness of self-sacrifice, to the great befuddlement of Ayn Rand.

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Are you sure Jon represents a 'black fire' sword?  In an awful lot of these quotes he seems destined to be a 'pale white' one?

I am not sure what you mean - I read all the quotes and none of them make Jon pale. Ghost, yes, but not Jon.  There is however a huge foreshadowing of Jon as pale when he wakes form the crypts to prank Arya and company, covered in flower, and Bran sees him growing pale and hard, yada yada. But he is also armored in black ice, and he's a black shadow, now a white one. He's a black shadow with a white shadow, who is ghost, just as Dany is a silver queen with a black shadow (Drogon). Now, if Jon merges with Ghost when re resurrected, that could be interesting - will he have red eyes like Ghost? 

Look at it this way - everything is inverted. Jon SNOW wears only black, has black hair and nearly black eyes (a grey so dark it looks black, just like Valyrian steel).  He's a black shadow and a black crow, the lord of Castle Black.  It's downright heavy-handed. All the Black Brothers and black crows, btw, never white crows. The Others and NW are a kind of inverted parallel brotherhood, for sure, so white crows could mean Others, but the NW brothers are black, and associated with fire. Anyway, Jon's name is snow-white but everything else about him is black... except for his animal, as I said.

The black gate is white weirwood. The sword Ice is "smoke dark" and forged in dragonfire. Wearing "mourning" clothes means wearing black, and the Black Brothers are the light that brings the dawn, but the Sword (erroneously?) called Dawn is white, and wielded by a white knight. I even picked up George using a "black dawn" metaphor in ADWD do describe Valyrian steel, or more accurately, Azor Ahai's black meteor sword Lightbringer, which is like a black Dawn. I know everyone is hip to this, much has been written if inversions, etc. Specifically the black / white one is what I am keying on here. The real sword of the morning might be a black one, just as the black brothers themselves are a sword in the darkness.. I mean, if they are a sword, they are a black sword, the light that brings the dawn, you know? They wear mourning and bring the morning. 

The white sword, however, is wielded most famously by someone who symbolizes an Other, as all KG do. The white shadows with moon-pale and snow-white armor, we've talked about this right? They are the white swords who live in the white sword tower, Arthur Dayne is from the Palestone Sword tower and has a pale stone sword, after which he himself is named (the SOTM is the office, too)... so it couldn't be any thicker on the white sword symbolism, in other words. To me, the implications seem clear - Dawn is an icy weapon whose origins lie in the north, with the Others. Could it be used to kill the Others? Maybe, but I do not think so. 

Frozen fire kills Others - obsidian, and probably V steel, which is similar because it is created in a molten state and then frozen in place, very like obsidian. Both are black ice, I think - fire, frozen in place. Think about this: fire consumes, but if you apply ice to it and freeze it, you get a balanced, potent weapon - the power of fire, tempered by ice. 

The Others are the exact opposite - they are primarily ice, but they have been touched by fire - their sort of cold burns, and their eyes are cold burning stars. Dawn, to me, lines up with the Others - it's a sword of ice, which might be able to burn. Burning ice, not frozen fire. Frozen fire kills Others, burning ice... kills dragons? That's what I think - I think Dawn could be used to kill dragons. Totally extrapolation, nothing I would gamble on, but you follow my logic. Jon dreams of wielding his father's sword, and his father's sword is "Black Ice," which conveniently kills others, whether it's actual Ice (Oathkeeper), other swords made like Ne'ds sword (any V steel), or Obsidian which is black ice symbolically... they all kill Others. They are are all black frozen fire. 

I have read a lot of those Bible verses, particularly the ones from Revelation, and it seems like something Martin might have had in mind - it's certainly an incredibly vivid example of ice and fire symbolism for a man using lots of that very thing. I have found enough Revelation ideas in ASOIAF to feel confident he is using them, so I am on board.  Might Jon's hair turn white? I have wondered about that. He needs to become Elric of Melnibone, right? Black sword, white skin and hair, red eyes? Like the Winterfell weirwood, pulling a black ice sword out of the cold black pool at his feet? There's a scene in particular which you might be familiar with:

He woke to the sight of his own breath misting in the cold morning air. When he moved, his bones ached. Ghost was gone, the fire burnt out. Jon reached to pull aside the cloak he’d hung over the rock, and found it stiff and frozen. He crept beneath it and stood up in a forest turned to crystal. The pale pink light of dawn sparkled on branch and leaf and stone. Every blade of grass was carved from emerald, every drip of water turned to diamond. Flowers and mushrooms alike wore coats of glass. Even the mud puddles had a bright brown sheen. Through the shimmering greenery, the black tents of his brothers were encased in a fine glaze of ice. So there is magic beyond the Wall after all.

We have pale pink dawn light - a point in favor of Dawn burning red, i suppose - but the main thing is the the magic north of the wall is this icy dawn.  That seems clear enough - Dawn is a sword of ice magic from north of the Wall. Then we have the black tents of the brothers encased in ice, making the brothers black ice of a fashion. Gilly appears, they talk about the Others (because the Others are related to Dawn and ice magic worth of the Wall), and then... 

The magic was already faded, icy brightness turning back to common dew in the light of the rising sun. Someone had gotten a fire started; he could smell woodsmoke drifting through the trees, and the smoky scent of bacon. Jon took down his cloak and snapped it against the rock, shattering the thin crust of ice that had formed in the night, then gathered up Longclaw and shrugged an arm through a shoulder strap. A few yards away he made water into a frozen bush, his piss steaming in the cold air and melting the ice wherever it fell.

Its almost like Jon shatters the ice from his black cloak - the black ice - and then picks up Longclaw, as if Longclaw had been a piece of that black ice. Also, Jon is melting everything all the sudden, breaking ice, pissing and melting it.. it's almost like he is lighting on fire as the sun rises. I am not really sure what to make of it all - there is so much symbolism, there's a high risk of over-interpretation - but see what you think. 

[LmL]

5 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

I'll also mention that Wild Hunt's memebrers include: King Arthur, Odin/Woden, King Herla, Herne the Hunter, Hereward the Wake, Old Nick. And concerning Dutch Sinterklaas, from Wikipedia:

Folklore and myth connected to Solistice/Yule/Christmas/Saturnala/Sol Invictus is so rich... mistletoe, holly, wickerman, manger, Krampus, Santa, Mages, Ragnarok, Fimbulwinter, Christmas dishes, boar's head, roosters, reindeers, brining back the light, defeating the darkness etc...We could set up a whole thread about traditions from all around the world and their symbolic meaning and origins.

I'm currently writing a short (hopefully) story where Winter Solistice symbolism is prominent - as a gift to a good friend of mine and exercise in symbolic writing. Shame I'm not good enough to write prose in English (I hope) yet .

Dammit I am going to have to mention more of this crap in my third episode for sure... damn all of you with your extensive insight and whatnot. I ripped in to the Wick Man in Part 2 - you read that yet BT? - but my goal was primarily to show the associations with the ASOIAF King of Winter and fire, a burning man, zombies, and green man ideas - basically, to show that the KoW is part of the AA / LH dead savior mythos in some way. The King of Winter is a burning green man, and I hint that means resurrected Jon will be a fiery dude.  

[LmL]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

LynnS had a very good theory that the Wall may already be in the process of coming down. Actually her original theory had to do with how it was built, mainly by drawing the cold unto itself...literally consuming the cold. But now that it seems as if a blizzard is emanating out of Winterfell it may be that the consuming quality has been reversed and it's now expelling the cold, and the reason why it's expelling through Winterfell is due to a missing ward, namely there is no Stark in Winterfell.

So what is the purpose or threat of the horn? In Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series the Horn of Valere opened graves and it called up legendary heroes from the past. The heroes were bound to whomever blew the horn. Therefore "giants" could be legendary heroes versus an earthquake.

Ironically Ygritte recounted all the graves that they had already opened just to find the horn releasing shades or shadows in the process.

Haha, yes I noticed that nod to the Horn of Valere as well, with the idea of letting the spirits out of the grave.

[LmL]

Also, in regards to the wild hunt - I think one of the most important myths in ASOIAF is that of Harlon the Hunter and Herndon of the Horne, the founders of House Tarly and children of Garth the Green. That's just a thinly-veiled rearrangement of "Herne the Hunter," who is them most vivid depiction of an undead / ghost horned lord and a leader of a truly undead wild hunt, and to whom I have compared Coldhands. It's a direct suggestion of Garth's offspring becoming ghostly horned gods, but what is even more interesting is the idea that the horns that make sound are tied into all of this as well (per the topic of the OP). The 79 sentinels are showing us undead Night's Watch who still man their posts, and they "wind ghostly warhorns." They are planted in holes dug into he wall as if they are trees, and hold tall spears to simulate tree trunks. And we also have the scarecrow brothers, who Jon joking says "perhaps it's one of them who blew the horn" when a horn sounds in ASOS. 

Also, the sigil of Tarly is a huntsman, red on green... the colors of greenseers and of the Holly King.

Myself, I think the important horn is dragonbinder, not the old one Sam has. I know, I watched Indiana Jones and the HolyGrail, but still. That dragonbinder horn is clearly powerful magic and we don't really know what it does yet. We know it cannot be sounded by a mortal man - but perhaps in immortal zombie can play Beethoven's Ninth on that thing.  Personally I think Jon would look good in Euron's Valyrian steel armor (armored in black ice), and using that dragonbinder to summon the dragon comet to bring the Wall down. 

[cgrav]

Both horns project fire, in a sense. Euron's horn burns it's blower from the inside out, and when Jon finds his horn, the first thing he does is pour out a dozen dragonglass arrowheads and a spearhead. "Frozen fire" found appropriately in the far north.

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Both horns project fire, in a sense. Euron's horn burns it's blower from the inside out, and when Jon finds his horn, the first thing he does is pour out a dozen dragonglass arrowheads and a spearhead. "Frozen fire" found appropriately in the far north.

Oh, I like that!  I suspect the great horn that Melisandre apparently burned is also a dragon binding horn by it's description and comparison to Euron's horn.  I also think that she switched it with one of the great horns found on top of wall and hid the original.  I think the horn that was burnt was also glamored liked Rattleshirt and Stannis' sword.  It would be a curious thing if a dragonbinding horn was buried somewhere north of the Wall under a glacier and what that might say about the events of the Long Night.

But I also think the small broken horn is significant as well with it's banding and runic charges.  It's the type of horn that a man of the Night's Watch would carry.  The question is whether it was purposely broken so it couldn't be sounded and whether or not it's also a binding horn of some kind.   It seems more likely to me that a horn of this type would be Joramund's horn.  Even Mormont can recognize the owner of the horn when he hears it.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

 

Sam blushed a vivid crimson and tripped over his own tongue as he tried to stammer out a courtesy. Jon had to smile.

When they emerged from under the trees, Mormont spurred his tough little garron to a trot. Ghost came streaking out from the woods to meet them, licking his chops, his muzzle red from prey. High above, the men on the Wall saw the column approaching. Jon heard the deep, throaty call of the watchman's great horn, calling out across the miles; a single long blast that shuddered through the trees and echoed off the ice.

UUUUUUUoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

A Clash of Kings - Jon III

Up ahead a hunting horn sounded a quavering note, half drowned beneath the constant patter of the rain. "Buckwell's horn," the Old Bear announced. "The gods are good; Craster's still there." His raven gave a single flap of his big wings, croaked "Corn," and ruffled his feathers up again.

 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

Both horns project fire, in a sense. Euron's horn burns it's blower from the inside out, and when Jon finds his horn, the first thing he does is pour out a dozen dragonglass arrowheads and a spearhead. "Frozen fire" found appropriately in the far north.

Yes, I like this a lot too, because it fits with everything that I am seeing as far as fire going to the north and becoming frozen fire of one sort or another.  Great catch on one horn having frozen fire inside it, and the other one having pure fire. 

Also, House Buckwell  has a big old rack of golden antlers on it's sigil, ha ha. 

Also, that's last hero math with the dragon glass… 12 arrowheads and one spearhead.  John is several times compared to dragon glass – the hunger in his belly is as sharp as dragon glass, when they voted for Lord Commander, his tokens were arrowheads…  there are a couple of others but I can't recall them off the top of my head. 

[cgrav]

11 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yes, I like this a lot too, because it fits with everything that I am seeing as far as fire going to the north and becoming frozen fire of one sort or another.  Great catch on one horn having frozen fire inside it, and the other one having pure fire. 

Also, House Buckwell  has a big old rack of golden antlers on it's sigil, ha ha. 

Also, that's last hero math with the dragon glass… 12 arrowheads and one spearhead.  John is several times compared to dragon glass – the hunger in his belly is as sharp as dragon glass, when they voted for Lord Commander, his tokens were arrowheads…  there are a couple of others but I can't recall them off the top of my head. 

Yeah, I had noticed that, too. The symbolism was confusing at first, because the arrows came from a burnt, cracked, horn ringed in gold - pretty much every single  moon symbol you've pointed out in your essays - but Lost Hero stuff comes pouring out of it, which seems in opposition to the moon destruction and Long Night stuff. My take is that it shows the moon cataclysm as both cause and cure: the destruction caused the Night, but the magic/knowledge/iron that came from it provided the means to end the Long Night, as well.

In a way, this kind of addresses the disordered chronology of the Azor Ahai myth by showing that Lightbringer was both the start and end of the Long Night. The Azor Ahai myth is all out of sorts because it's not about the order of events, it's about cyclicality and inevitability. 

[The Fattest Leech]

A few small nitpicks here because I know how we like to keep our details straight 

The horn Jon found in the cache with the stream of dragon glass, that Sam now has, is banded in bronze, a metal linked to the north as in their crowns and overall superiority in the cold weather as opposed to gold. I'm on my phone so I can't really quote it, but I think it was Cat that explained this in regards to Robb's crown. I think. 

The oversized horn that Mel burns, that came from a giants grave, is the one with gold on it. 

Also, a "stream" of obsidian falls out of the bronze ringed one Jon finds, which links Jon being part of the new Nymeria plot currently in progress in the north, and then Jon gives a dozen of those to Sam. So, Jon has passed off two symbols to Sam. 

[LmL]

9 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Yeah, I had noticed that, too. The symbolism was confusing at first, because the arrows came from a burnt, cracked, horn ringed in gold - pretty much every single  moon symbol you've pointed out in your essays - but Lost Hero stuff comes pouring out of it, which seems in opposition to the moon destruction and Long Night stuff. My take is that it shows the moon cataclysm as both cause and cure: the destruction caused the Night, but the magic/knowledge/iron that came from it provided the means to end the Long Night, as well.

In a way, this kind of addresses the disordered chronology of the Azor Ahai myth by showing that Lightbringer was both the start and end of the Long Night. The Azor Ahai myth is all out of sorts because it's not about the order of events, it's about cyclicality and inevitability. 

I have been closing in on something along these lines for a while now, and I think it is taken most directly from Venus mythology, since it is both Morningstar and Evenstar. The herald of nightfall AND sunrise. The Titan of Bravos spells it out, blowing his horn at sunrise and sunset. He's a green man warrior whose eyes look like a pair of red stars, he has a broken sword like the last hero, the green seaweed hair to complete the green sea metaphor... he comes marching out of the sea at times like a sea dragon... and again, he heralds both sunrise and sunset. House Dayne gives us dragsters and Swords of the Evening as well as the SOTM white knights. 

And yes, I think what must have happened is that the black meteors which caused so much destruction must have been repurposed, or perhaps the swords made from them were. I've wondered about the whole broken sword thing - was a black sword broken and reforged? 

The Night's Watch has always been a symbol of the black meteors, as are black crows and ravens, and their dragonglass weapons simply add to that symbolism. They seem geared up to fight the Others in every way. The question is, what caused the Others to appear? According to my theory, what about the moon catastrophe created the Others or drove them south?

Two possible answers: the NK story is actually about the creation of the Others, something NK and NQ did together (you'll notice this story places the NW in the role of evil-doer, showing again that a given thing can cut both ways). AA is the NK, and he came here and made Others... dickhead. Other possibility, some part of fallout form the disaster created the Others as a byproduct. The obvious thing would be a black meteor landing int the heart of winter. I like this idea, because the Others, as I said above, are like cold matter animated by fire, or you could it looks like the Others stalled some fire magic and turned it into cold fire. Those burning blue star eyes that burn cold! Why do they Others burn so? I think they are symbolizing the idea of fire magic being turned cold, or ice magic being animated by fire more accurately. It could be this black meteor in the heart of winter animating the dead or animating the Others themselves. 

The Black Brothers might symbolize this. They are a little black burr in the great icy mass that is the Wall, and it might be the NW's very presence there which irritates the Others - certainly when the NW penetrate into the cold lands, the Others react. There are a ton of other examples of this pattern... I mean NK sticking his NK seed into the cold, moon pale woman is showing us black meteors embedding in the ice moon - and the Heart of Winter is analogous to an ice moon, so it could be all the same thing. Rhaegar puts dragons in Lyanna, a cold moon maiden, and the result is Mr. Frozen Fire Jon Snow. I could go on but it's off topic.

[LmL]

9 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

A few small nitpicks here because I know how we like to keep our details straight 

The horn Jon found in the cache with the stream of dragon glass, that Sam now has, is banded in bronze, a metal linked to the north as in their crowns and overall superiority in the cold weather as opposed to gold. I'm on my phone so I can't really quote it, but I think it was Cat that explained this in regards to Robb's crown. I think. 

The oversized horn that Mel burns, that came from a giants grave, is the one with gold on it. 

Also, a "stream" of obsidian falls out of the bronze ringed one Jon finds, which links Jon being part of the new Nymeria plot currently in progress in the north, and then Jon gives a dozen of those to Sam. So, Jon has passed off two symbols to Sam. 

When Jon is selected LC, the arrowhead tokens are a 'torrent' and a 'flood,' so this language is not accidental. This is the flood of bleeding stars being symbolized, which is why it is described in watery language. The wave of bleeding stars were coated in 'moon blood,' as well, so it's generally a flood of some kind. The meteors also triggered floods, so there's that. 

Jon seems to have a habit of triggered floods of dragonglass, wonder why that is?
/sarcasm

Also at the Doom, we have a rain of black blood and dragonglass - that's another great depiction of the meteor shower, even combing the idea of dragonglass with burning blood (think bleeding stars with moon blood). 

And yes you are right about the bronze banding. The one Mel burns is banded in "old gold," suggesting antiquity with that one as well. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, LmL said:

When Jon is selected LC, the arrowhead tokens are a 'torrent' and a 'flood,' so this language is not accidental. This is the flood of bleeding stars being symbolized, which is why it is described in watery language. The wave of bleeding stars were coated in 'moon blood,' as well, so it's generally a flood of some kind. The meteors also triggered floods, so there's that. 

Jon seems to have a habit of triggered floods of dragonglass, wonder why that is?

Also at the Doom, we have a rain of black blood and dragonglass - that's another great depiction of the meteor shower, even combing the idea of dragonglass with burning blood (think bleeding stars with moon blood). 

And yes you are right about the bronze banding. The one Mel burns is banded in "old gold," suggesting antiquity with that one as well. 

I hadn't thought about the torrent of voter arrowheads! 

Well, if GRRM's editor is correct, this could be one of the "hint, hint, boom" clue styles George gives... if you count Ser Patrek the bleeding star and then Mel the bleeding star???

[LmL]

Here's another Jon dragonglass quote @The Fattest Leech:

Quote

King Stannis gazed off north again, his gold cloak streaming from his shoulders. “It may be that I am mistaken in you, Jon Snow. We both know the things that are said of bastards. You may lack your father’s honor, or your brother’s skill in arms. But you are the weapon the Lord has given me. I have found you here, as you found the cache of dragonglass beneath the Fist, and I mean to make use of you. Even Azor Ahai did not win his war alone. I killed a thousand wildlings, took another thousand captive, and scattered the rest, but we both know they will return. .

This is a great quote equating Jon with the weapon of Azor Ahai - with Lightbringer, as @Schmendrick proposed all those years ago. But Jon is specifically associated with those dragonglass weapons. He is like on of them. 

Quote

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger … he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

Not only is his lust for Winterfell like a dragonglass blade inside him, right at this moment he starts to merge his mind with his wolf's. And he thinks about killing elk - about killing a horned god symbol. That's more pertinent to the episode I just did as opposed to the dragonglass, but the point is made. Jon is identified with dragonglass in many ways.

I would say that dragonglass and Valyrian steel play into the idea of black ice or frozen fire, the weapons needed to beat the others. Jon is also heavily identified with Ned's sword, which is a walking black ice pun. That black ice armor he had - can't help but notice Euron's v steel armor. Sure would look good on Jon, just saying. This is kind of my larger point about Jon and the King of Winter - he symbolizes frozen fire. That's what Jon's lineage is saying too - a mix of ice and fire. That gives you either frozen fire or burning ice. I think I the Others and maybe Dawn are burning ice, while dragonglass and V steel are frozen fire. Who knows, I could be totally imaging all of this. But that's what I see. 

[LmL]

Oh hers something super fucked up I noticed the other day. Dany's Dragons - white, green, and black. Been thinking about those colors a lot lately, and for a long time in general. We see them at Castle Pyke very notably as the comet blazes overhead and sea dragon imagery abounds, because it's white at the base from the salt spray (salt as in salt and smoke), green in the middle from lichen, black at the top (called a black crown) from the soot (smoke residue to go with the salt) of the nightly watch fire (Lightbringer). Again, the comet hangs behind the castle in the air as all of this rolls out. Anyway, white, green, black. 

You know where else we see those colors? The first description of the Others. White as snow, black as shadow, dappled with the green of the woods. 

Mother fucker. 

What to make of that? That's why I hate color symbolism. It's so subjective and flexible. 

[LmL]

 @ravenous reader, check out this odd little house I found in the Vale:

House Donniger is a noble house from the Vale. According to semi-canon sources they blazon their arms with a red sun rising from a grey-green sea against a yellow sky.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Donniger

I mean... a red sun (AA) rising from a grey-green sea? Come on. George just thinks of different ways of reinforcing these esoteric ideas through ransom sigils, just to torment us, I think... lol.

[Voice]

On November 14, 2016 at 7:00 PM, ShimShim said:

Ice Dragons Spiders 

ftfy

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, LmL said:

Oh hers something super fucked up I noticed the other day. Dany's Dragons - white, green, and black. Been thinking about those colors a lot lately, and for a long time in general. We see them at Castle Pyke very notably as the comet blazes overhead and sea dragon imagery abounds, because it's white at the base from the salt spray (salt as in salt and smoke), green in the middle from lichen, black at the top (called a black crown) from the soot (smoke residue to go with the salt) of the nightly watch fire (Lightbringer). Again, the comet hangs behind the castle in the air as all of this rolls out. Anyway, white, green, black. 

You know where else we see those colors? The first description of the Others. White as snow, black as shadow, dappled with the green of the woods. 

Mother fucker. 

What to make of that? That's why I hate color symbolism. It's so subjective and flexible. 

I'm with you. It would be much tidier for the dragons to be reverse colors of the Others if they are to be two sides of one coin. This is a story of dualities, white versus black. Parallel but inverted. Maybe the white, green, and black are supposed to symbolize that they are both creatures of shadow? 

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, LmL said:

What to make of that? That's why I hate color symbolism. It's so subjective and flexible. 

I keep coming back to how much dragons are like dragonglass:

Quote

"Call it dragonglass." Archmaester Marwyn glanced at the candle for a moment. "It burns but is not consumed."

The candle was unpleasantly bright. There was something queer about it. The flame did not flicker, even when Archmaester Marwyn closed the door so hard that papers blew off a nearby table. The light did something strange to colors too. Whites were bright as fresh-fallen snow, yellow shone like gold, reds turned to flame, but the shadows were so black they looked like holes in the world

Drogon's scales are black, his horns and spinal plates are blood red,and his eyes are smouldering red pits.^[2] His teeth are black as well.^[3][2]his flame is black fire shot with red and the wash of its heat can be felt thirty feet away. His wing flap sounds like the clap of thunder. He bleeds black blood.

Rhaegal has green and bronze scales.^[2] His green scales are a dark green, the green of moss in the deep woods at dusk, just before the light fades, and they gleam like jade. His teeth and claws are black. ^[3] His eyes are bronze, brighter than polished shields, and they glow with their own heat. His flame is orange-and-yellow fire shot through with veins of green.

The majority of Viserion's scales are cream, but his horns, wing bones and spinal crest are gold colored.^[1][2] His teeth are shining black daggers. His eyes are two pools of molten gold and his flame is pale gold shot through with red and orange.

Quote

When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

"Obsidian." Sam struggled to his knees. "Dragonglass, they call it. Dragonglass. Dragon glass." He giggled, and cried, and doubled over to heave his courage out onto the snow.

Quote

"Dragonglass." The red woman's laugh was music. "Frozen fire, in the tongue of old Valyria. Small wonder it is anathema to these cold children of the Other."

"On Dragonstone, where I had my seat, there is much of this obsidian to be seen in the old tunnels beneath the mountain," the king told Sam. "Chunks of it, boulders, ledges. The great part of it was black, as I recall, but there was some green as well, some red, even purple. I have sent word to Ser Rolland my castellan to begin mining it. I will not hold Dragonstone for very much longer, I fear, but perhaps the Lord of Light shall grant us enough frozen fire to arm ourselves against these creatures, before the castle falls."

 

[The Fattest Leech]

11 hours ago, LmL said:

 

 

I would say that dragonglass and Valyrian steel play into the idea of black ice or frozen fire, the weapons needed to beat the others. Jon is also heavily identified with Ned's sword, which is a walking black ice pun. That black ice armor he had - can't help but notice Euron's v steel armor. Sure would look good on Jon, just saying. This is kind of my larger point about Jon and the King of Winter - he symbolizes frozen fire. That's what Jon's lineage is saying too - a mix of ice and fire. That gives you either frozen fire or burning ice. I think I the Others and maybe Dawn are burning ice, while dragonglass and V steel are frozen fire. Who knows, I could be totally imaging all of this. But that's what I see. 

Oh, I totally agree with this. I did not mean to give the impression that I didn't. I just forgot the descriptive of the dragonglass as water-like which does double duty in relation to what we see happening on page now.

Ice can burn, as Jojen says