The Horn of Winter was never made to make the wall fall...

[Pain killer Jane]

13 hours ago, LmL said:

I mean NK sticking his NK seed into the cold, moon pale woman is showing us black meteors embedding in the ice moon

You know we can parallel Taena of Myr to the Tiger-woman bride and the moon pale woman as she is playing this whispering foreign/other woman temptress/Mata Hari trope. And she is associated with Myr, (the place of merchants; Sea of Myrth- mirth or joy; Myrmen -mermen- so she would be a myrmaid; knowledge; lace; glass; and far-eyes). And she is married into House Merryweather (and the etymology of mirth is the same for merry) and their sigil is a horn filled to bursting with food. and House Merryweather comes from The Reach. 

[LmL]

4 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

You know we can parallel Taena of Myr to the Tiger-woman bride and the moon pale woman as she is playing this whispering foreign/other woman temptress/Mata Hari trope. And she is associated with Myr, (the place of merchants; Sea of Myrth- mirth or joy; Myrmen -mermen- so she would be a myrmaid; knowledge; lace; glass; and far-eyes). And she is married into House Merryweather (and the etymology of mirth is the same for merry) and their sigil is a horn filled to bursting with food. and House Merryweather comes from The Reach. 

Oh ok, that's pretty hot shit there @Pain killer Jane, I like that. Myth - merry, very cool, that's the sort of thing which shows you pretty much nothing is coincidence in ASOIAF.  I'll have to re-read Taena's sections... she puts like a cat, I am pretty sure. But what sense does it make for her to be a tiger woman - is Cersei the BSE or something? And if we are supposed to associate Tiger Woman with icy moon maidens, then we should find cat clues around the Corpse Queen... but I can't think of any. She comes from a Barrow King, maybe, so there is that link to green men which I pointed out, but it really seems like George might leave some cotf or cat-woman type clues around relating to her, or to other icy moon maidens. Lynn isn't a cat either. A centaur, but not a cat. 

You know what else plays in moons and mirth? The Smiling Knight, with his lunar, Cheshire Cat grin. He was killed by the SOTM, with the death blow being the thirteenth blow (the SK was bleeding from "a dozen wounds" before being finished off). Silent knights like Ilyn Payne also have that same symbolism - he grins at Jamie under horned moon in ASOS for example. (Is Robert Strong grinning under that mask? ha ha) That's easy to understand - horned moons are also Cheshire Cat moons. That's why we get the laughing horned god... only he is usually given a red smile, if you know what I am saying. That probably explains why George is making use of that phrase, because it further ties the throat slitting sacrifice of horned gods to smiling, and we all know George likes to do a thing as many ways as possible. 

Equally importantly, it plays into George's use of words like dancing and song to describe swordplay and battle. 

 

[cgrav]

A parallel just crossed my mind: when the NK gave her his seed, he gave his soul too, which follows the theme of soul-taking we see in the LB forging. Is NK an inverted counterpart to AA? Theories of NK being an aspect of AA notwithstanding.

And on the "ice that burns" theme, I realized that in Dante's Inferno, the innermost ring of Hell is frozen (ironically by the wind of Satan's wings as he struggles to free himself from the ice). This makes me wonder if it's productive to think of the Land of Always Winter as the center of a hell. We know that there is hot geology going on just below the surface Winterfell.

[LmL]

4 minutes ago, cgrav said:

A parallel just crossed my mind: when the NK gave her his seed, he gave his soul too, which follows the theme of soul-taking we see in the LB forging. Is NK an inverted counterpart to AA? Theories of NK being an aspect of AA notwithstanding.

And on the "ice that burns" theme, I realized that in Dante's Inferno, the innermost ring of Hell is frozen (ironically by the wind of Satan's wings as he struggles to free himself from the ice). This makes me wonder if it's productive to think of the Land of Always Winter as the center of a hell. We know that there is hot geology going on just below the surface Winterfell.

Yes, absolutely - it's remarked that the Westerosi believe that half the hells are frozen, which seems like a nod to Dante for sure. Also, there is talk of a frozen hell that awaits the Starks somewhere in the series. I remarked in my Green Zombies Part 32 that the King of Winter seems to have all the powers of hell at his disposal, both of ice and fire. In that vision of the corpse feast where Robb and Grey Wind blow open the doors and make a grand entrance... Robb is accompanied by a blizzard, specifically called the cold winds rising, but his wolf named Grey Wind always has burning, fiery eyes (as do all the direwolves, aligning them with fiery hellhounds). Robb himself has kissed by fire hair and blue eyes like an Other, as do other people like Stannis and JonCon (whose eyes are specifically called icy).

My general take on all of this is that the King of Winter is an ice / fire duality character, someone who has transmuted one with the other. He froze fire, something like that. It's the fiery stuff, adapted to the North. I have been calling Jon "Azor Ahai reborn in an icy sheath" for a long time, because Rhaegar is an AA type who (like the NK) put his seed in an icy moon maiden. AA is then reborn, transmuted by the icy moon, into a kind of frozen fire. That is Jon. 

It's also the Others, which many have noticed that Jon parallels in certain ways. NK and CQ sacrificed to the Others, which means they made Others, just as Rhaegar and Lyanna made Jon. In the sky, this would be like the comet or a black fiery moon meteor hitting the ice moon, which is something which may have happened and / or will happen at the climax. That's why the Pthers are like an invasion of cold stars - they represent children of the ice moon. Just as Jon does. Both the Others and Jon are a mix of ice and fire... Jon is frozen fire in the sense of dragonglass and black ice, as I was saying, while the Others are more like fire magic turned cold, so that ice burns like fire. 

Think about this: fire consumes, cold preserves. If you temper fire with ice, you prevent it from consuming itself and freeze it into place, making a potent black frozen fire weapon.  You cannot temper ice with fire, because fire is the active ingredient. But you can have ice swallow fire, and thus become animated and activated ice which burns like fire - but it burns cold. It's like the Others swallowed a star fire, turned it cold, and now it shines out of them and their servants as a cold star fire. Those blue star eyes symbolize the animating force of the Others - it's the thing that shows the wights are animated by the magic of the Others. It's the fire that is the animating force. That's why I think it would make sense for a moon meteor or comet fragment or whatever to be somewhere up in the Heart of Winter. Just as Asshai is cursed and befouled and toxic, something is not right with the Heart of Winter either. I mean... it produces ice demons and is intent on reanimating corpses. Something is fucked up about it too... of course I would think a meteor is the answer. What other possibilities do we have?

[Pain killer Jane]

3 minutes ago, LmL said:

But what sense does it make for her to be a tiger woman

The tiger-woman is listed among the BSE's evil deeds, so we, the readers, should assume that there is something evil going on with her, but we, the readers, know that isn't always the case. So in the spirit of that trope, we get a lot of "women are considered the downfall"/root of evil/evil witches running around; The NQ, Serala of Myr -the fall of House Darklyn, Lelia Lannister, Tyanna of the Tower, Mysaria aka "Misery, the White Worm", and Cersei (and we know her reputation for scheming seduction is). 

[Bluetiger]

''he had three faces: one in front bloodred;
and then another two that, just above
   the midpoint of each shoulder, joined the first;
   and at the crown, all three were reattached;
the right looked somewhat yellow, somewhat white;
   the left in its appearance was like those
   who come from where the Nile, descending, flows''

Here is Lightbringer's description by Dante.

And Hell's Ninth Circle contains : Traitors to their Kindred, Traitors to their country, Traitors to their guests, Traitors to their lords, and finally, at the bottom of well-like structure Lucifer himself. 

In Norse mythology Hel's lowest level is called Misty Hel.

Goddess Hel lives in hall called Éljúðnir, which translates to snowstorms" or "damp with sleet or rain".

Hel rests in her bed called Kor, which means sickbed.

Edit: 

''Dany took it almost by reflex. The box was carved wood, its mother-of-pearl lid inlaid with jasper and chalcedony. "You are too generous." She opened it. Within was a glittering green scarab carved from onyx and emerald. Beautiful, she thought. This will help pay for our passage. As she reached inside the box, the man said, "I am so sorry," but she hardly heard.''  - as chalcedony is bloodstone (for example in the Book of Revelation depending on translation it's called chalcedony or bloodstone) - is this scene a blood betrayal?

 

Chalcedony appears only twice in ASOIAF, the second time being this scene: 

The day was almost done by the time they found Vargo Hoat, sacking a small sept with another dozen of his Brave Companions. The leaded windows had been smashed, the carved wooden gods dragged out into the sunlight. The fattest Dothraki Jaime had ever seen was sitting on the Mother's chest when they rode up, prying out her chalcedony eyes with the point of his knife. Nearby, a skinny balding septon hung upside down from the limb of a spreading chestnut tree. Three of the Brave Companions were using his corpse for an archery butt. One of them must have been good; the dead man had arrows through both of his eyes

And Ned's death?

A stone came sailing out of the crowd. Arya cried out as she saw her father hit. The gold cloaks kept him from falling. Blood ran down his face from a deep gash across his forehead. More stones followed. One struck the guard to Father's left. Another went clanging off the breastplate of the knight in the black-and-gold armor. Two of the Kingsguard stepped in front of Joffrey and the queen, protecting them with their shields

"Thank you, Your Grace," she murmured. The Hound was right, she thought, I am only a little bird, repeating the words they taught me. The sun had fallen below the western wall, and the stonesof the Red Keep glowed dark as blood

And this: "Your brother's blood," Melisandre said. "A king's blood. Only a king's blood can wake the stone dragon." Only bloodstone can wake the dragon? 

 

 

[Pain killer Jane]

19 minutes ago, cgrav said:

A parallel just crossed my mind: when the NK gave her his seed, he gave his soul too, which follows the theme of soul-taking we see in the LB forging. Is NK an inverted counterpart to AA? 

And on the "ice that burns" theme, I realized that in Dante's Inferno, the innermost ring of Hell is frozen (ironically by the wind of Satan's wings as he struggles to free himself from the ice). This makes me wonder if it's productive to think of the Land of Always Winter as the center of a hell. We know that there is hot geology going on just below the surface Winterfell.

The wall is an extension of this as well. In Dante's Inferno, the frozen hell is the hell for betrayers, hence Satan being at the center. In his mouths, he has Judas, Brutus and Cassius. Judas for betraying Jesus to the Romans, Brutus and Cassius for stabbing Cesar and betraying him and thus preventing a unified Italy. And at the wall, we got Jon touted as a prophesied savior/true king paralleling his ancestor Aegon the conqueror- a realm unify-er, being stabbed for his political decisions by his brothers. And BSE/AA's creation of LB is called The Blood Betrayal.   

[Pain killer Jane]

39 minutes ago, LmL said:

is Cersei the BSE or something?

@ravenous reader pointed out that in one of Sansa's chapters, Cersei is wearing a black dress with rubies as if she were weeping blood and Ravenous asked me the question, why was Cersei dressed like Rhaegar with his black armor and rubies weeping blood into the Trident? 

[LmL]

9 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

@ravenous reader pointed out that in one of Sansa's chapters, Cersei is wearing a black dress with rubies as if she were weeping blood and Ravenous asked me the question, why was Cersei dressed like Rhaegar with his black armor and rubies weeping blood into the Trident? 

That's the thing, AA reborn is the child of sun and moon, so either a lunar or solar character can transform into AA reborn. This symbolism with Cersei was readily apparent in the TV show last season when she

took the thorne, dressed in black and red.

So in terms of her fucking Taena, that is like the black fire moon meteor - which is AA reborn - impregnating the ice moon, just as Rhaegar did Lyanna and NK did CQ.

[Bluetiger]

"And the Night's Watch abandoned them."

"… to defend the Wall," Jon finished stubbornly, "not as seats for southron lords. The stones of those forts are mortared with the blood and bones of my brothers, long dead. I cannot give them to you."

"Cannot or will not?" The cords in the king's neck stood out sharp as swords. "I offered you a name."

I wonder why Night Watch's castles are called bloodstones here... And why wannabe Azor Ahai Stannis asks for that bloodstone?

 

 

 

[Pain killer Jane]

44 minutes ago, LmL said:

And if we are supposed to associate Tiger Woman with icy moon maidens, then we should find cat clues around the Corpse Queen... but I can't think of any.

I bet if we look at the shadow cat descriptions we can see it, especially Varamyr's (notice the myr in his name?) shadow cat that would mesmerize woman to bring them back to his hut. 

[Pain killer Jane]

54 minutes ago, LmL said:

So in terms of her fucking Taena, that is like the black fire moon meteor - which is AA reborn - impregnating the ice moon, just as Rhaegar did Lyanna and NK did CQ.

And Cersei is a lioness. And here is a question what if the Tiger-woman bride skinchanged a shadowcat with their black coat and white stripes? If the GEotDawnians didn't know shadow cats were a different species of feline, it is reasonable to assume that a shadowcat could be named a tiger.  

[Bluetiger]

And blue eyes... 

And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

Most of the tigers have golden, yellow or brown eyes... But the same mutation that causes tiger's furr to be white also results in his eyes being blue/grey.

And GRRM, as a cat fan (Dax from Tuf Voyaging, Balerion, Ser Pounce) might know that

[Pain killer Jane]

22 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Most of the tigers have golden, yellow or brown eyes... But the same mutation that causes tiger's furr to be white also results in his eyes being blue/grey.

And GRRM, as a cat fan (Dax from Tif Voyaging, Balerion, Ser Pounce) might know that

Which is the mutation in Ghost and Shaggydog. And I think the gene is also responsible for heterchormia.

41 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

"And the Night's Watch abandoned them."

"… to defend the Wall," Jon finished stubbornly, "not as seats for southron lords. The stones of those forts are mortared with the blood and bones of my brothers, long dead. I cannot give them to you."

"Cannot or will not?" The cords in the king's neck stood out sharp as swords. "I offered you a name."

I wonder why Night Watch's castles are called bloodstones here... And why wannabe Azor Ahai Stannis asks for that bloodstone?

 Nice catch! There is this large theme of blood mixing with earth and then being used to build stuff. The Astapori rhyme; The red mountains of Dorne being red from the amount of spilled Dornish blood; the Red Keep; Bran telling Maester Luwin he isn't made of clay;

Spoiler

the Mercy chapter where she hears the Tyrion character saying that he is "made of darker stuff, of bones and blood and clay..". 

edit: mostly I think he is asking because of the power it will give him and we know that the Nightfort has the magical door and the other magical/scary stuff happening there so we know there is power/magic there. And we have Qyburn telling Cersei that blood magic is the strongest. So blood is magic is power and blood is mixed with earth is used to build seats/testaments to/of power so it imparts power to the holder. 

[Bluetiger]

To be exact, I don't think that white tigers are result of exactly the same mutation as albinism - they lack pheomelanin pigment, while albionos usually lack all pigments.

Not all white animals are albionos - for example for a long time when a white pup was born to German Shepherd parents, it was thought that it's an albino - while in fact they have pigments - for example black noses and black areas around eyes + brown eyes. Now White Swiss Shepherds are a distinct dog breed - and I'm lucky that one of them is my friend  - here is Narmo, also called Narmmy, my (nearly) 15 months old 'pup'. Ñarmo means wolf in Quenya language created by JRRT.

http://assets.enjin.com/wall_embed_images/1468683135_13713511_1747432935497863_1023108861_n.jpg

http://assets.enjin.com/wall_embed_images/1467913416_13595902_282753035408071_552190619_n.jpg

http://assets.enjin.com/wall_embed_images/1468428392_20160713_141413.jpg

 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

"And the Night's Watch abandoned them."

"… to defend the Wall," Jon finished stubbornly, "not as seats for southron lords. The stones of those forts are mortared with the blood and bones of my brothers, long dead. I cannot give them to you."

"Cannot or will not?" The cords in the king's neck stood out sharp as swords. "I offered you a name."

I wonder why Night Watch's castles are called bloodstones here... And why wannabe Azor Ahai Stannis asks for that bloodstone?

 

 

 

The NW fortresses are the same as the NW brothers in terms of symbolism. Black Castles, bulwarks against the cold. Black meteors, in other words, and so it makes perfect sense for them to be associated with the bloodstone idea. 

[LmL]

46 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

And blue eyes... 

And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

Most of the tigers have golden, yellow or brown eyes... But the same mutation that causes tiger's furr to be white also results in his eyes being blue/grey.

And GRRM, as a cat fan (Dax from Tuf Voyaging, Balerion, Ser Pounce) might know that

HAH! You worked a blue tiger in there, amazing. I should expect no less. 

[Bluetiger]

13 minutes ago, LmL said:

HAH! You worked a blue tiger in there, amazing. I should expect no less. 

I'm doing my best.

Anyway, in 1 hour and 2 minutes it'll be 6th December - and here in Poland it's the day when Santa comes - St.Nocolas's feast day (actually sometimes he comes twice, on Christmas Eve as well - that largely depends on local traditions, as somewhere it's Star, Baby Jesus or Angel who brings gifts in legend).

Let's hope that it's actually a kind old greybeard who comes to me, not the 'original' Santa - Odin, with his pack of fierce wolves, Sleipnir, Hel, Krampus, Herne and the rest of them. 

Actually, when you look at this from another point of view, Krampus is actually closer to original Santa archetype than his modern depiction as kind old man... Fascinating how much of Christmas lore and tradition originates from Old Norse customs and Anglo-Saxon paganism...

Well... Happy St.Claus night...

Edit: Symbolic writing is **** hard... 

[LmL]

50 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And Cersei is a lioness. And here is a question what if the Tiger-woman bride skinchanged a shadowcat with their black coat and white stripes? If the GEotDawnians didn't know shadow cats were a different species of feline, it is reasonable to assume that a shadowcat could be named a tiger.  

A lioness who should be wearing the armor, instead of the gown. Cersei who is mad she wasn't born with a cock. Yes, this makes a lot of sense, and of course her parallels to Dany and Sansa also work, as they are both fiery moon maidens turned... well, Dany is turned in AA reborn, but Sansa actually turns into the NQ. Check this out.

She has massive fire moon symbolism at the Battle of the Balckwater, as I broke down in my Moon Blood episode. Then she vanishes mysteriously (one rumor has her sprouting bat wings and flying out of a tower, ha ha) and goes tot he Eyrie, #1 symbol of the ice moon. She gets lodged in there like a fire moon meteor, and then she starts making "child's snow knights" and snow fortresses. That whole scene has a lot of NQ imagery actually. The lodging of a fire moon meteor inside the ice moon should always trigger a wave of icy invaders who strand in for the Others - NK & NQ literally made Others, whereas Sansa will be triggering an outflow of Vale Knights who have icy moon and falcon symbolism. Lyanna only triggered three white knights, but other ice moon symbols also came out of her death - Jon, and Dawn the sword. Ned in fact took 3 things from the TOJ, all the same symbolically - Lyanna's bones (bones of ice moon - ice moon meteors), Jon (child of ice moon = ice moon meteors), and Dawn (symbolic of white meteor, which I theorize came from the ice moon). 

So, what we see when the fire moon explodes, essentially, is that some fiery moon meteors land on earth, creating a burning tree or sea dragon - symbols of the meteor interacting with the earth or the ocean. These are the more typical AA reborn symbols. But some AA reborn black meteor people get covered in snow and ice, and become a NQ. I think this is what happened to Brienne the Blue - in her last fight with Biter, Biter falls on her like an avalanche and his huge white face "became the world" or "filled the world" or something like that. She's literally buried in an avalanche of Biter, who is like a white moon symbol and a merling symbol. Biter even EATS HER, which is exactly the idea - Brienne the Evenstar (Evenstar = dark Venus symbolism, i.e. black meteors, black LB, etc.) is swallowed by the ice moon. Her carrying Oathkeeper symbolizes the black meteors as well, but then she's also Brienne the Blue, you know?  When Jamie sees her again, she looks half a corpse, just like the Corpse Queen. 

There's also this pattern of very fiery people becoming KG It happens a damn lot. If you go through he KG annals, a disproportionate number of them used to have fiery or red symbolism about them. The KG symbolize the Others, as I have explained elsewhere, so I think what is depicted is fiery people or meteors turning into Others or creating Others. A fire moon meteor, lodged in the ice moon and / or the Heart of Winter, creating burning cold demons. Something like that. Some have speculated that the others were originally dragon people, GEOTD people, and perhaps this is so. Or perhaps the horned lords are at the center of it, with some becoming dragon people and some Others. 

[LmL]

5 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

I'm doing my best.

Anyway, in 1 hour and 2 minutes it'll be 6th December - and here in Poland it's the day when Santa comes - St.Nocolas's feast day (actually sometimes he comes twice, on Christmas Eve as well - that largely depends on local traditions, as somewhere it's Star, Baby Jesus or Angel who brings gifts in legend).

Let's hope that it's actually a kind old greybeard who comes to me, not the 'original' Santa - Odin, with his pack of fierce wolves, Sleipnir, Hel, Krampus, Herne and the rest of them. 

Actually, when you look at this from another point of view, Krampus is actually closer to original Santa archetype than his modern depiction as kind old man... Fascinating how much of Christmas lore and tradition originates from Old Norse customs and Anglo-Saxon paganism...

Well... Happy St.Claus night...

You have to remember that St. Nick was created as a way of baptizing the Wild Man, since they could not stamp out his worship. They bifurcated that legend, exiling the carnal, unrestrained and wild aspects to the goat -horned devil, and created St. Nick the kind of Father Christmas as a sanitized version. It's a really fascinating use of mythology as propaganda. I think it was @Pain killer Jane who recommend this link a page ago on this thread, it's terrific, and expert from a book called Santa Claus: Last of the Wild Men:

https://books.google.com/books?id=hkw2bPlfTUQC&pg=PA69&dq=devil's+bluster&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRqsaIkdvQAhUO02MKHfZyCyQQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=devil&f=false