Leaks discussion thread for season 7 vol. 2.

[Leticia Stark]

My favorite excuse to hate on Dany/Jon is that they being together is "too Disney" 

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

No, Jon doesn't "create" the title.  It already exists.  Lord/Lady of Winterfell is not an elected position, it's a Stark family inheritance (everyone is ignoring the existence of Bran, but there you go). The other lords have diddly-squat in the way of input on that.

Jon is proclaimed king separately. That doesn't make him Lord of Winterfell.

Hence, the Viewer's Guide has two titles now.

No, Jon and Sansa are talking about who would rule the North with the Stark House, I already commented that. it is pretty clear. I edited it so maybe you didn't read that I posted the transcription of what they said.

It was an informal conversation about who would rule, and then, the Northern Lords, well, Laynna, say Jon shoudl be King in the North without knowing what Jon and Sansa had been discussing privately. Sansa is sad because Jon wanted her to rule and instead, the Lords are faster than him when saying who should rule: Jon instead of Sansa (not what Jon wanted).

 They haven't ackowledged that Sansa is Lady as a Ruler of (Winterfell?) at any moment.

And anyway there is no precedent of two ruling titles in the Stark history. See that I also posted some "paradoxes" of the fact that there are two titles to rule (to rule what sepparately?) with only one castle and only one house name (Lyanna says "Stark blood" referring to Jon). They can't be explained. But this is because basically they didn't create two titles for ruling.

If Jon had had that conv with Sansa after the election I could maybe think it would be possible (although very badly written since it isn't clear at all that he wants to create a title with that premise you mention) but the conversation comes before; so it can't be their intention.

As for the Viewer's guide, they probably say that because 

a)Maybe Jon will let Sansa rule some things (but not inherit anything), in fact she will rule as a substitute when she is abroad

B))Sansa is the only Lady alive in WF when all this happens

I have basically repeated what I said in my last post. Won't do it again, but I do it just in case I edited it after you read the whole thing.

PS: also, the scene of KITN mirrors the one of Robb, they talked about it in the ITE, and it was clear that Robb became automatically King and stopped being Lord. One title to rule, again.

[Lord Friendzone]

2 minutes ago, lidsa said:

I get where some of that hate for Jon/Dany comes from, though it seems to me to be a case of "but I want him/her to get with MY fave!"  I just think it's funny that a lot of the people who hate on Jon/Dany also think Dany and her rapist and owner, Drogo, were a great romance.

For me, Jon getting with Dany is just one more notch in the "Jon is Dany's betrayal for love" theory. If it comes down to it, he's going to pick the Starks over Dany any time, sex or no sex.

Bittersweet part of Jon's arc would he'll never was or will be a Stark. It's been constantly thrown at him. He eve nsaid it himelf, others do see him, he has their morals but by the end of the story Jon will adopt Targ surname and rule in the South. He would hate but do his duty, if he lives. If not he'l die as a bastard, that could've ruled but he won't.

Daario seems more fitting as for shows betryal and even theirs are flimsy. Brown Ben Plumm is not on the show, so I wouldn't take this very seriously.

[Leticia Stark]

6 minutes ago, lidsa said:

I get where some of that hate for Jon/Dany comes from, though it seems to me to be a case of "but I want him/her to get with MY fave!"  I just think it's funny that a lot of the people who hate on Jon/Dany also think Dany and her rapist and owner, Drogo, were a great romance.

For me, Jon getting with Dany is just one more notch in the "Jon is Dany's betrayal for love" theory. If it comes down to it, he's going to pick the Starks over Dany any time, sex or no sex.

Exactly, but they will turn this difficult for him too since they are probably develop feelings for each other. Seriously, this will be amazing to watch for all the angst reasons.

[Lord Friendzone]

Just now, Leticia Stark said:

My favorite excuse to hate on Dany/Jon is that they being together is "too Disney" 

I wish I knew a Disney movie where aunt sleeps with her nephew. So Disney.

[Queen of Procrastination]

15 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

 

Regardless of what you think, the characters do attribute this cause. Not even sure how to respond to education trumps genetics when it comes to inbreeding risks.

 

I never wrote that education trumps genetics. The education thing was related to the whole targaryen madness thing in which incest can play a role, but so do some other factors like education or in Aerys case the Dunkesdale trauma. 

20 minutes ago, Bear Claw said:

I have the impression that there is some kind of faulty gene that is responsible for the madness.  I don't think the environment/education plays a role. I am thinking of Aemon, Aegon, and their abusive brother as an example. I think the environment must have been good to raise up Aemon and Aegon into good men, but the other brother didn't seem very affected by the environment. 

Intersting. The wiki lists the theory that the magical power in the blood of the Targaryen may create some mental instability http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Targaryen_madness

So I think there could be several factors that affect the madness. 

10 minutes ago, MoIaF said:

Regarding the avuncular marriages in the show, I think that could be address easily with a couple of scenes. At the beginning of the season we can have a scene between Jon and Sansa talking about the family tree while Jon is adding himself as the King in the North. And while Dany is at Dragonstne we can have another family tree moment. 

It wouldn't be too hard to establish precedent.  

Agreed. Has the show mentioned how Westeros deals with cousin marriages? IIRC Joanna or Ned's parents, were never mentioned, but I'm not really sure. 

[Colonel Green]

4 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

No, Jon and Sansa are talking about who would rule the North with the Stark House, I already commented that.

Yes, because they assume that that person will be one and the same, as it typically is.  But that's not how it goes down.

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And anyway there is no precedent of two ruling titles in the Stark history. See that I also posted some "paradoxes" of the fact that there are two titles to rule (to rule what sepparately?) with only one castle and only one house name (Lyanna says "Stark blood" referring to Jon).

There's no precedent because the Lord of Winterfell was proclaimed king, and the two titles never separated.  But they can be.  The lords could have declared Wyman Manderly the king, and that wouldn't make him Lord of Winterfell.

Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell, meaning she (and Bran, if his position is acknowledged when he returns) is Jon's bannerwoman, responsible for Winterfell and its environs in the same way that Lyanna Mormont is for Bear Island.  Jon is King, meaning he's responsible for the entire North.  That Jon doesn't have a separate castle is definitely something that would generate friction (which is presumably what the show is going for).

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As for the Viewer's guide, they probably say that because 

a)Maybe Jon will let Sansa rule some things (but not inherit anything), in fact she will rule as a substitute when she is abroad

B))Sansa is the only Lady alive in WF when all this happens

Neither of those explanations makes any sense.  The Viewer Guide wouldn't have gotten an advance look at Season 7 to prepare the family tree, and there's no reason why the KITN's sister would be referred to as the Lady of Winterfell because she was the only one around.  She's called the Lady of Winterfell in the Viewer's Guide because, as Jon acknowledges prior to the acclamation scene, she is the Lady of Winterfell.

[Colonel Green]

Just now, Lady of Whisperers said:

Has the show mentioned how Westeros deals with cousin marriages? IIRC Joanna or Ned's parents, were never mentioned, but I'm not really sure. 

Lysa raised the prospect of Sansa marrying Robin, and nobody commented that this was unusual (Sansa didn't want to, but not because he was her cousin).

[Meera of Tarth]

17 minutes ago, lidsa said:

I get where some of that hate for Jon/Dany comes from, though it seems to me to be a case of "but I want him/her to get with MY fave!"  I just think it's funny that a lot of the people who hate on Jon/Dany also think Dany and her rapist and owner, Drogo, were a great romance.

For me, Jon getting with Dany is just one more notch in the "Jon is Dany's betrayal for love" theory. If it comes down to it, he's going to pick the Starks over Dany any time, sex or no sex.

There are more "cases".

I don't like Dany and Jon as a couple for reasons but I don't hate them.

And The reason I don't them together has nothing to do with one of them not being shipped with any of favs but: enough incest in the story -even if they band before they'll have to deal with that after-, very quick romance.....I prefer the romances that are built with time.

[Meera of Tarth]

27 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Yes, because they assume that that person will be one and the same, as it typically is.  But that's not how it goes down.

There's no precedent because the Lord of Winterfell was proclaimed king, and the two titles never separated.  But they can be.  The lords could have declared Wyman Manderly the king, and that wouldn't make him Lord of Winterfell.

Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell, meaning she (and Bran, if his position is acknowledged when he returns) is Jon's bannerwoman, responsible for Winterfell and its environs in the same way that Lyanna Mormont is for Bear Island.  Jon is King, meaning he's responsible for the entire North.  That Jon doesn't have a separate castle is definitely something that would generate friction (which is presumably what the show is going for).

 

Typically no, always until the moment of the conversation, even now. 

It could be if Jon, as King creates it for the very first time in history. He hasn't created it in the show. The conversation in which he says "Lady of WInterfell" is about deciding who will rule and appears before the elections. After the elections, he doesn't say anything.

The Boltons are defeated.
The war is over.
Winter has come.
If the maesters are right, it'll be the coldest one in a thousand years.
We should ride home and wait out the coming storms.
The war is not over.
And I promise you, friend, the true enemy won't wait out the storm.
He brings the storm.
(men murmuring) Your son was butchered at the Red Wedding, Lord Manderly, but you refused the call.
You swore allegiance to House Stark, Lord Glover, but in their hour of greatest need, you refused the call.
And you, Lord Cerwyn, your father was skinned alive by Ramsay Bolton.
Still you refused the call.
But House Mormont remembers.
The North remembers.
We know no king but the King in the North whose name is Stark.
I don't care if he's a bastard.
Ned Stark's blood runs through his veins.
He's my king from this day until his last day.
(men murmuring) Lady Mormont speaks harshly and truly.
(men murmuring) My son died for Robb Stark, the Young Wolf.
I didn't think we'd find another king in my lifetime.
I didn't commit my men to your cause 'cause I didn't want more Manderlys dying for nothing.
But I was wrong.
Jon Snow avenged the Red Wedding.
- (men murmur) - Manderly: He is the White Wolf.
The King in the North.
(murmuring) I did not fight beside you on the field and I will regret that until my dying day.
A man can only admit when he was wrong and ask forgiveness.
There's nothing to forgive, my lord.
There will be more fights to come.
House Glover will stand behind House Stark as we have for a thousand years.
(men murmur) And I will stand behind Jon Snow the King in the North! - The King in the North! -

No, they are not electing anyone from all the houses, as in Castle Black, they are talking specifically about HOUSE STARK all the time. Then, they are deciding, if anything, who from this house shoudl rule (actually they are not deciding anuthing), and then Lyanna says JON has to be KING and Sansa feels sad.

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Neither of those explanations makes any sense.  The Viewer Guide wouldn't have gotten an advance look at Season 7 to prepare the family tree, and there's no reason why the KITN's sister would be referred to as the Lady of Winterfell because she was the only one around.  She's called the Lady of Winterfell in the Viewer's Guide because, as Jon acknowledges prior to the acclamation scene, she is the Lady of Winterfell.

it makes sense to me, perfectly sense. I predict when Arya arrives she will be Lady too in the guide. Or they are predicting S7 just like what they did with Rhaegar (confirming him as the father). So MAYBE they are predicting that Sansa will rule WF because JON has to be aborad (likely) OR he decides after being KING he will create two titles and that Sansa will come before Bran (unlikely). but it has not happened in the show.

If you consider the HBO guide as "what the show didn't say onscreen because we needed an extra scene but we missed it and audience needs explanations" good for you, I just don't. My take of the guide is different. it's the obvious. 

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Robb: King in the north. HIS siblings: ladies, princes and princesses....

This is my last post about this never-ending topic.

[kg1982]

29 minutes ago, lidsa said:

I get where some of that hate for Jon/Dany comes from, though it seems to me to be a case of "but I want him/her to get with MY fave!"  I just think it's funny that a lot of the people who hate on Jon/Dany also think Dany and her rapist and owner, Drogo, were a great romance.

For me, Jon getting with Dany is just one more notch in the "Jon is Dany's betrayal for love" theory. If it comes down to it, he's going to pick the Starks over Dany any time, sex or no sex.

I hated Dany and Drogo.  There is no way on God's green earth that there was any love there unless it is Stockholm Syndrome.  And I hate Jon and Dany for the reasons I've outlined.  It makes Jon look like a submissive mistress for him to sleep with her after he actually submits to her absolute political authority.  In fact, it is the kneeling that annoys me more than the sex but I could see interesting plot lines around him giving up his title and being screwed over by the North for it.  (As he should b BTW.)  I am just annoyed  that he does both.

[Lord Friendzone]

Just now, kg1982 said:

I hated Dany and Drogo.  There is no way on God's green earth that there was any love there unless it is Stockholm Syndrome.  And I hate Jon and Dany for the reasons I've outlined.  It makes Jon look like a submissive mistress for him to sleep with her after he actually submits to her absolute political authority.  In fact, it is the kneeling that annoys me more than the sex but I could see interesting plot lines around him giving up his title and being screwed over by the North for it.  (As he should b BTW.)  I am just annoyed  that he does both.

Because independency matters so much when white walkers come. He'll have his say.  Dany is NOT a tyrant as you present her.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

I agree, he's saying she's the Stark in Winterfell, not him. They are talking about who gets the best bedroom.

indeed.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

Whether it's healthy or unhealthy isn't the point: Jaime and Cersei's romantic relationship is the driving force behind pretty much everything that happens in the books/show, and it's between a brother and sister. It is the core relationship. In the books, it's also the only romantic relationship between two POVs that lasts longer than one book. Sam/Gilly doesn't compare, either in the books or the show; they're cute--"beautiful" is a stretch, especially in the books (their sex scene is ghastly)--and that's all.

 

 

I think the core relationship is the triangle between JCB, actually. JC is the beginning, and it has serious consequences since the beginning in the politics, but there is also Brienne int the mix, who is linked to the future and other houses.

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Besides, every GOT fan has watched a brother and sister repeatedly proclaim their love for each other, make out, have sex and pretty much act like a married couple for six whole seasons, but the prospect of an aunt and nephew falling in love suddenly horrifies and repels them? Please. 

I think the majority of people who doesn't like JD doesn't like JC, in fact, I think many more people dislike JC.

And also, it's not suddenly people are horrified, in fact, I think it's the fact people have gotten accustomed to it so much that would like something different.

[kg1982]

8 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Because independency matters so much when white walkers come. He'll have his say.  Dany is NOT a tyrant as you present her.

1.  Yes.  I believe she is a foreign tyrant and that it is unfair for the North to have to submit to the South again especially after what happened at the RW.  The North is of a completely different culture than the rest of Westros and is the region that seems to be screwed over the most by the Southerners.  This is what will happen again if the Targs are restored.

2.  The situation with Dany could bring up some interesting issues for Jon political.  So it is not a bad storyline.  What does annoy me is that he has to go become her submissive mistress after giving up his title.  The power dynamics of that relationship would be one of ruler and subject rather than equals and Jon would have absolutely no say or influence in the relationship because of that dynamic.  And nope, I do not want to see one of my favorite characters turned into some submissive housewife because of feminism or whatever. 

[HanginginWesteros]

1 hour ago, lidsa said:

I get where some of that hate for Jon/Dany comes from, though it seems to me to be a case of "but I want him/her to get with MY fave!"  I just think it's funny that a lot of the people who hate on Jon/Dany also think Dany and her rapist and owner, Drogo, were a great romance.

For me, Jon getting with Dany is just one more notch in the "Jon is Dany's betrayal for love" theory. If it comes down to it, he's going to pick the Starks over Dany any time, sex or no sex.

Absolutely. The writing for the show is NOT subtle and Jon is so obviously going to pick the Starks over Dany, thus fulfilling her "betrayal for love" prophecy. Not only will Jon be absolutely devastated that he's not Ned's son, he'll have an issue being with his aunt (Dany not as much being with her nephew--she may love Jon's a Targ).  But I strongly suspect that all three Stark siblings (Bran, Arya and Sansa) won't exactly be Dany's fans given that her father murdered their grandfather and uncle. It also might come down to differences in personality and ruling. Whatever happens, Jon will have to make a choice and he'll go with the Starks. This is hugely telegraphed with that prophecy. I can see Jorah picking up the pieces of his heartbroken Khaleesi (before they both die of course in the battle against the WW). 

[Colonel Green]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

No, they are not electing anyone from all the houses, as in Castle Black, they are talking specifically about HOUSE STARK all the time.

I didn't say that they were considering people from all houses.  I said that, in theory, they could.  The Starks have retaken the North with Arryn backing, so it's a fait accompli that they're in charge again.  But the Northern nobles proclaim Jon as king, notwithstanding that he isn't the Lord of Winterfell, as Jon himself acknowledged earlier.

[Meera of Tarth]

 

16 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

I didn't say that they were considering people from all houses.  I said that, in theory, they could.  The Starks have retaken the North with Arryn backing, so it's a fait accompli that they're in charge again.  But the Northern nobles proclaim Jon as king, notwithstanding that he isn't the Lord of Winterfell, as Jon himself acknowledged earlier.

exactly it is the First time a non/ previously lord of wf becomes King but as Lyanna Said she doesn't care he is a bastard he has the Stark blood to rule. In fact it's Lyanna that elects him as King and not Lord, so she basically decides they need a King instead of a Lord (just like in Robb's times and it makes sense after all the Lannisters in charge of the 7kgs have done to then) and also that this King can be a bastard.

but all the time they are talking about House Stark and how the other houses (well some of them) didn't follow The leading house in Bad times. They were electing their leader and it was not Sansa, despite being it what Jon would've wanted (Jon didn't say she wanted Sansa as Queen but he referred to her as his leader, if Lyanna had Said they wanted Sansa She would have been Queen, but Lyanna thought that Jon deserved it more bc of the battle)

[Evarei]

hmm Jaime and Bronn at Highgarden (Trujillo Castle) is from episode 1 or 7. Jeremy Podeswa was on set

http://imgur.com/a/RWCYd

[Cridefea]

9 hours ago, Evarei said:

So the good guys have 4 VS swords. Brienne with Oathkeeper, Jon with Longclaw, Jaime with Widow's Wail, Sam with Heartsbane. I don't see Sam fight the WWs with it, so it could be given to someone (The Hound?). And Jaime's golden hand is such a hindrance, he has sucked so much as a swordsman since he lost it, but perhaps he's gotten better. I wonder if Dawn will come into play.

I don't know if he's improved, but I think Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper are two special swords that could be decisive in the end. Together.

 

9 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

We need Dark Sister for Arya and Blackfyre for someone else.

I'd love to see other VS swords!!!! How about someone who finds Lamentation in the Dragonpit?