Leaks discussion thread for season 7 vol. 2.

[Cridefea]

If we start using competence, professional knowledge etc. to explain why we are right, we take us into a blind alley. 

You're both right and wrong at the same time.

What I find veeery interesting about aunt/nephew incest in Jon/Dany's case is the timing.

They could have show us their growing feelings etc and when J/D would have been in love and the viewers would have loved their relationship ... boooom, we would have found out they are related. It would have been easier to show and more shocking. On the contrary, they have deliberatly chosen to show us Jon's origin before. Why? It is clear that now many people will not be happy about it .... they chose this way on purpose.

 

 

8 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

It was lost at the Storming of the Dragonpit. After the death of Ser Willum Royce.

Indeed

[Le Cygne]

The preservation of dynasties with inbreeding is a reality in ASOIAF, too. And it's not presented as a good thing, in the long run. The Targs are the central example of this in ASOIAF. It's not by some off chance that the author throws this out there, at a key moment in Dany's story:

I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land. [2]

And I'll just throw this example from the books out there, seems rather interesting in light of the leaks, too. No, it's not a direct parallel, but at no point is the author saying what Alys' uncle is doing here, trying to force her to marry her cousin, is a good thing for Alys.

And Jon Snow steps in. And there's supposedly a plot involving Alys Karstark in the leaks, too:

Following Melisandre's prophecy to Lord Commander Jon Snow of a girl on a dying horse riding to the Wall, Alys Karstark, who has now flowered, arrives at the Wall to speak with Jon after fleeing her cousin Cregan Karstark. Cregan's father, Lord Rickard's uncle Arnolf Karstark, plotted to make his son the Lord of Karhold by forcing Alys to marry Cregan and also declaring for Stannis Baratheon to goad the Iron Throne to execute the rightful heir of Karhold, Alys's brother Harrion.[3] To avoid this, Jon arranges for Melisandre to marry Alys to Sigorn, Magnar of Thenn, thus creating a new noble house that would claim Karhold should Harrion perish. Alys agrees with Jon to send the old people of Karhold to the Wall in the hope that they may survive the winter. She believes that Karhold will open its gates to her. When Cregan arrives at the Wall to claim Alys, he is thrown into an ice cell by Jon Snow.

[Lord Friendzone]

21 minutes ago, MoIaF said:

I don't buy into the sweetness as a negative, I think it's nonsense. You have to look at the content in which these things appear. She often calls Missandei sweet and I think she's been very good to Dany. 

Quite frankly I think the betrayal for love, will be a lot more complicated and not straightforward in the "betrayal" sense. 

It can be Dany making Jon swear/promise her not to fight the Night's King on his own and Jon goes ahead and does it anyways because he wants to save her (and everyone else). It's a betrayal, he promised he wouldn't do it but still did it. 

This is a silly scenario but I'm sure you understand where I'm going with this. 

Even if you look at Jorah's betrayal it happened before he knew her and came to love her and respect her. It's a complete betrayal of Dany but circumstances did change and he no longer felt that way and was completely and absolutely loyal to her. Dany goes on to eventually forgive him because she understood this even though she was devastated by it. 

Even Mirri's betrayal wasn't so straightforward. There were underlying issues and it wasn't about Dany (it was about Drogo) and yet it was done to her. 

 

I think it's partialy connected.  If Jon does something she would not like, again it could lead to his death or something unhappy for her. Like fighting NK but show version of betrayals might be different to books. So I think, sweetness is not connected to feelings for one another like others said, but more or less that some of them Jon in this case  does something. Their romance rings being doomed and since they got this early it even strenghtens this idea.

Someone here said that Jon might choose Starks over her.

You have to look at her previous lovers, all dead or will be. That doesn't spell happiness for Jon and when you count he's been resurrected for basically one purpose...hes's got a part to play in this war and to have his hand in defeating defeat white walkers, he might cease to exist at the end. Saving people with Dany and others but never finding peace. same could be said for Dany. MEl said hi ms much and illustrate the possibility of him dying before the end of this story.

[lojzelote]

3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

And I'll just throw this example from the books out there, seems rather interesting in light of the leaks, too. No, it's not a direct parallel, but at no point is GRRM saying what Alys' uncle is doing here, trying to force her to marry her cousin, is a good thing for Alys. The preservation of dynasties with inbreeding is a reality in ASOIAF, too. But is the author telling us that a good thing, seems like the answer to that is no, that's the point some of us are trying to make.

So back to the example. And Jon Snow steps in. And there's supposedly a plot involving Alys Karstark in the leaks, too:

Following Melisandre's prophecy to Lord Commander Jon Snow of a girl on a dying horse riding to the Wall, Alys Karstark, who has now flowered, arrives at the Wall to speak with Jon after fleeing her cousin Cregan Karstark. Cregan's father, Lord Rickard's uncle Arnolf Karstark, plotted to make his son the Lord of Karhold by forcing Alys to marry Cregan and also declaring for Stannis Baratheon to goad the Iron Throne to execute the rightful heir of Karhold, Alys's brother Harrion.[3] To avoid this, Jon arranges for Melisandre to marry Alys to Sigorn, Magnar of Thenn, thus creating a new noble house that would claim Karhold should Harrion perish. Alys agrees with Jon to send the old people of Karhold to the Wall in the hope that they may survive the winter. She believes that Karhold will open its gates to her. When Cregan arrives at the Wall to claim Alys, he is thrown into an ice cell by Jon Snow.

You are mixing apples and lettuce together and trying to sell them as the same stuff. Alys' relatives tried to FORCE her into the marriage as the means of USURPING the main line. That's like saying that because Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion to usurp Winterfell it means that any marriage to a heiress of a great house is a bad thing. It's not wrong as long as both parties enter the marriage voluntarily. The problem with Alys' almost marriage to her cousin isn't described negatively because of their kinship, but because it was forced. FFS.

Anyway, could anyone tell me why exatly should Jon "choose Starks over Dany"? Why is there any choice to be made? According to the leaks Dany doesn't mind Jon being Ned's son, so why should she mind his other kids? Are the Starks too emotionally crippled to stand the idea that Jon has a girlfriend and forms a meaningful relationship with someone else than them? If they mind her because she's Aerys' daughter, then guess what, they should also mind Jon, since they are about to find out he's Aerys' grandson, which would all make them little shits, if you ask me. That's not something either of them can change. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

The Targ madness has been played up as a coin toss on the show, and look who is behaving quite madly in the leaks... a certain Targ.

So those leaks again... And this is from the show:

When the people rose in revolt against him, your father set their towns and castles aflame. He murdered sons in front of their fathers. He burned men alive with Wildfire, and laughed as they screamed. And his efforts to stamp out dissent led to rebellion that killed every Targaryen except two.

And the story isn't over yet. This is the part of the story where the conflict is heightened, this is approaching the showdown, where the protagonist has to show everything he's got, to overcome his long struggle, this isn't time for sunset on the love boat, and if it's there now, it probably won't last...

Burning enemies is cruel, but not necessarily evidence of madness. 

 

[Le Cygne]

6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Burning enemies is cruel, but not necessarily evidence of madness.

But there are many hints of madness in the telling of her story.

One cannot just ignore that her father did this, in a very high profile way in the story. And she's warned about her father. And she gradually cares less and less. In the leaks, she's counseled against her natural inclinations, yet she burns a father and son. I wonder, after she loses Viserion, how this will change her.

[El Guapo]

1 hour ago, MoIaF said:

 

It's actually a very bad thing to betray Dany, so if Jon's going to do it he better have a good explanation for it and hope that Dany forgives him. Otherwise...

Jon Snow...dead, again. 

Ok. You are getting me excited now.

 

[lojzelote]

1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

But there are many hints of madness in the telling of her story.

Oh really? Well, I guess it means that the author gave us two female pretenders for the throne and both of them turn mad. How original.

I think that the mad thing here is the utter desperation with which some people to make Dany and Jon's relationship not work. They did not even watch their scenes together yet, but already they are interpreting them as Jon playing, tricking, and betraying Dany, although the leaker's words conveyed the opposite. He grows to admire her to the point he believes she can be entrusted with the well-being of the North.

[Wrl6199]

Just now, lojzelote said:

Oh really? Well, I guess it means that the author gave us two female pretenders for the throne and both of them turn mad. How original.

I think that the mad thing here is the utter desperation with which some people to make Dany and Jon's relationship not work. They did not even watch their scenes together yet, but already they are interpreting them as Jon playing, tricking, and betraying Dany, although the leaker's words conveyed the opposite. He grows to admire her to the point he believes she can be entrusted with the well-being of the North.

Yeah that would be horrible.

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

Oh really? Well, I guess it means that the author gave us two female pretenders for the throne and both of them turn mad. How original.

I think that the mad thing here is the utter desperation with which some people to make Dany and Jon's relationship not work. They did not even watch their scenes together yet, but already they are interpreting them as Jon playing, tricking, and betraying Dany, although the leaker's words conveyed the opposite. He grows to admire her to the point he believes she can be entrusted with the well-being of the North.

Show and Books are not necessarily one and the same.  Dany is a good deal harder and more ruthless in the Show than in the Books.

[Le Cygne]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Show and Books are not necessarily one and the same.  Dany is a good deal harder and more ruthless in the Show than in the Books.

Yeah, I like her better in the books, but I wonder how much of the show is a hint for the books. They are definitely hinting that she's losing it on the show. Lots of heavy handed stuff.

[Meera of Tarth]

18 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

Oh really? Well, I guess it means that the author gave us two female pretenders for the throne and both of them turn mad. How original.

I think that the mad thing here is the utter desperation with which some people to make Dany and Jon's relationship not work. They did not even watch their scenes together yet, but already they are interpreting them as Jon playing, tricking, and betraying Dany, although the leaker's words conveyed the opposite. He grows to admire her to the point he believes she can be entrusted with the well-being of the North.

As original as lots of incestuous relationships in the same story. If they can be together why can't Dany be mad because Cersei already is?

I am not totally sure of Dany's  madness, but what I am sure is that what she did in S5, the trial of Mossador and then the execution but after burning some random people alive without a trial might have been a sign of madness. Although I am not sure if it is that or just their weird way of writing she was sad for Barristan.

However, in the books, Dany allegedly has some hallucinations sometimes. So maybe she can end up suffering an illness of this kind.

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, I like her better in the books, but I wonder how much of the show is a hint for the books. They are definitely hinting that she's losing it on the show. Lots of heavy handed stuff.

As is often the case with the Show, I'm not really sure what point the producers are making (are they expecting us to root for Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, or Cersei, for example?)  Is burning people alive okay when a heroine does it?  Or feeding a man his own sons?  Or feeding Ramsay to dogs? 

I think they are drawing parallels between Dany and Aerys, but I'm not sure they think that's a good or bad thing.

[Le Cygne]

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

As is often the case with the Show, I'm not really sure what point the producers are making (are they expecting us to root for Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, or Cersei, for example?)  Is burning people alive okay when a heroine does it?  Or feeding a man his own sons?  Or feeding Ramsay to dogs? 

I think they are drawing parallels between Dany and Aerys, but I'm not sure they think that's a good or bad thing.

Yeah, it's difficult to know, is it bad writing, or are they making a point. In this case, I think they are hammering it in, with the repeated and increasing hints throughout the seasons, rather than a faux empowerment moment.

[Le Cygne]

24 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

As original as lots of incestuous relationships in the same story. If they can be together why can't Dany be mad because Cersei already is?

I am not totally sure of Dany's  madness, but what I am sure is that what she did in S5, the trial of Mossador and then the execution but after burning some random people alive without a trial might have been a sign of madness. Although I am not sure if it is that or just their weird way of writing she was sad for Barristan.

However, in the books, Dany allegedly has some hallucinations sometimes. So maybe she can end up suffering an illness of this kind.

Yep. And my other point, And my other point, incest is not being presented as something positive in the narrative. There's always infighting among families (lots of examples of that in the story). Cregan was using Alys as a pawn, this was not presented as good for Alys. Just because there are examples on a family tree, doesn't mean this was a good thing for the individuals, nor was it likely a choice they made.

[Meera of Tarth]

26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think they are drawing parallels between Dany and Aerys, but I'm not sure they think that's a good or bad thing.

I think they might be doing this but I thought that in Season 5, I am not sure if burning the khals was another sign or not. But it's curious it is always related to burning people alive, just like Aerys.

At first I didn't want to see it because I am not a fan of Dany but I don't dislike her (well, sometimes I love her, sometimes I hate her, depending on her actions) but if the ending is gonna be she turning mad it will be sad but consistent with the writing.

[Le Cygne]

Just now, Meera of Tarth said:

I think they might be doing this but I thought that in Season 5, I am not sure if burning the khals was another sign or not. But it's curious is always related to burning people alive, just like Aerys.

At first I didn't want to see it because I am not a fan of Dany but I don't dislike her (well, sometimes I love her, sometimes I hate her, depending on her actions) but if the ending is gonna be she turning mad it will be sad but consistent with the writing.

Yeah, there's that repetition across seasons.

[SuperMario]

3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, there's that repetition across seasons.

And based on spoilers, it definitely sounds like that is continuing with Randall Tarly among others.

[Meera of Tarth]

9 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yep. And my other point, incest is not being presented as something positive in the narrative.

Yes, and if Dany turns mad it will also be a consequence of incest, and it will be sad, but consistent with the premise of that incest sometimes has bad consequences, even if we have meet the person in question (Dany) being human and also having done good things in the world. It will be sadder in fact because she could not have had the control over it and I suppose that no access to sofisticated medicines to treat her.

Quote

There's always infighting among families. Cregan was using Alys as a pawn, this was not presented as good for Alys. Just because there are examples on a family tree, doesn't mean this was a good thing for the individuals, nor was it likely a choice they made.

Yep, arranged marriages are the most common thing in nobility in those times, and in the ASOIAF world (well, I haven't read the woiaf but that's my impression).

I think that marriages for love are uncommon. And I think that if people could marry only for love they would not marry their relatives. Not to mention that IIRC there are more cases of marriage between cousins than between uncles and nieces and vice versa. I think this is a sign that is more incestuous. For the same reason, the only ones that are known to marry their siblings (even more incestuous) are one family: The Targaryens who ruled Westeros.

Do we know from the universe if lowborn people also marry cousins or other relatives?

[El Guapo]

Yeah I am sorry but there have been no hints that Dany is mad. None. Until they show her laughing as people are burning to death this is just people grasping at straws.