Leaks discussion thread for season 7 vol. 2.

[Meera of Tarth]

2 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Yeah I am sorry but there have been no hints that Dany is mad. None. Until they show her laughing as people are burning to death this is just people grasping at straws.

 

This is a charicature of being mad. And it is common in tales and stories for kids. In real life, madness or better said "severe mentall illness due to incest" in this case is more complex than that. And, in fact, we have not seen Cersei laughing when she burned people alive and we all know she is crazy as hell. She just smiled privately. She can hide her emotions as well, perfectly.

[Lord Friendzone]

49 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

You are mixing apples and lettuce together and trying to sell them as the same stuff. Alys' relatives tried to FORCE her into the marriage as the means of USURPING the main line. That's like saying that because Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion to usurp Winterfell it means that any marriage to a heiress of a great house is a bad thing. It's not wrong as long as both parties enter the marriage voluntarily. The problem with Alys' almost marriage to her cousin isn't described negatively because of their kinship, but because it was forced. FFS.

Anyway, could anyone tell me why exatly should Jon "choose Starks over Dany"? Why is there any choice to be made? According to the leaks Dany doesn't mind Jon being Ned's son, so why should she mind his other kids? Are the Starks too emotionally crippled to stand the idea that Jon has a girlfriend and forms a meaningful relationship with someone else than them? If they mind her because she's Aerys' daughter, then guess what, they should also mind Jon, since they are about to find out he's Aerys' grandson, which would all make them little shits, if you ask me. That's not something either of them can change. 

Maybe some occasion during the war or after the war he'll choose to stay in the North rather than come with Dany. Plenty of ways how he can choose one over the other.

Just now, Meera of Tarth said:

Yes, and if Dany turns mad it will also be a consequence of incest, and it will be sad, but consistent with the premise of that incest sometimes has bad consequences, even if we have meet the person in question (Dany) being human and also having done good things in the world. It will be sadder in fact because she could not have had the control over it and I suppose that no access to sofisticated medicines to treat her.

Yep, arranged marriages are the most common thing in nobility in those times, and in the ASOIAF world (well, I haven't read the woiaf but that's my impression).

I think that marriages for love are uncommon. And I think that if people could marry only for love they would not marry their relatives. Not to mention that IIRC there are more cases of marriage between cousins than between uncles and nieces and vice versa. I think this is a sign that is more incestuous. For the same reason, the only ones that are known to marry their siblings are one family: The targaryens who ruled Westeros.

Do we know from the universe if lowborn people also marry cousins?

They already said she won't, but they like to balance this with this Aerys sort of parallel. She is ruthless (some can see it as beginning of madness) but they repeatedly said it she won't turn mad. By this Tyrion constantly reminding her over her father is to give Tyrion some moral high ground, like with Theon. They do love this. 

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, Lord Friendzone said:

They already said she won't, but they like to balance this with this Aerys sort of parallel. She is ruthless (some can see it as beginning of madness) but they repeatedly said it she won't turn mad. By this Tyrion constantly reminding her over her father is to give Tyrion some moral high ground, like with Theon. They do love this. 

oh, did they said that? I was not aware of that. Do you have the link? I am curious, I'd like to read about it since the topic of Dany's madness is of my interest.

[Leticia Stark]

Not saying Dany is going to be mad like Cersei, but the scene where she burns all the Khals kind of creeped me out.
Some can say that she did it because they were her enemies, but still...

[lidsa]

11 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Jon always wanted to be a Stark, only thing he ever wanted and to realize he's not even that.  

But nothing about his Starkness changes. He was half a Stark (by blood) before he found out he was Lyanna's, and he's half a Stark (by blood) after he finds out. He never had the name anyway.

11 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

To who? Sansa or Arya who he sees as sisters and was raised with them?  

Yes, to Sansa or to Arya. I no longer believe that's where things are going, but to me that's what books 1-3 have been leading up to, for Jon to get with Arya. That's why I said "in theory" he could marry into the name now.

[Wrl6199]

Just now, lidsa said:

But nothing about his Starkness changes. He was half a Stark (by blood) before he found out he was Lyanna's, and he's half a Stark (by blood) after he finds out. He never had the name anyway.

Yes, to Sansa or to Arya. I no longer believe that's where things are going, but to me that's what books 1-3 have been leading up to, for Jon to get with Arya. That's why I said "in theory" he could marry into the name now.

Thais true.

[Meera of Tarth]

3 minutes ago, Leticia Stark said:

Not saying Dany is going to be mad like Cersei, but the scene where she burns all the Khals kind of creeped me out.
Some can say that she did it because they were her enemies, but still...

That surprised me too. 

[Leticia Stark]

13 hours ago, lidsa said:

If only Kit Harington had working facial muscles.

LMAO! OK, he definitely isn't a outstanding actor but his acting is definitely better than it was in the first seasons. So it's good that the scenes are happening now.

[Lord Friendzone]

Just now, Meera of Tarth said:

This is a charicature of being mad. And it is common in tales and stories for kids. In real life, madness or better said "severe mentall illness due to incest" in this case is more complex than that. And, in fact, we have not seen Cersei laughing when she burned people alive and we all know she is crazy as hell. She just smiled privately. She can hide her emotions as well, perfectly.

Sansa smiled ... as she walked away from Ramsay, Isshe on psychpath, mad route too? Not like Cersei wasn't crazy psycho bitch before, even if show is trying to make her more human. 

 

Just now, Meera of Tarth said:

oh, did they said that? I was not aware of that. Do you have the link? I am curious, I'd like to read about it since the topic of Dany's madness is of my interest.

 It's that convo of Dany and Tyrion in BOTB episode. She's not her father, Targ ruthless yes, but not mad, insane or sadist.

[MoIaF]

I don't think there is any indication in the show that Dan is going mad or that we are suppose to think that she is going mad. They do show that she's both incredibly compassionate but also ruthless. Tyrion is suppose to finesse the ruthlessness and the rashness she can sometimes display. 

In season 5 when Dany rounded up the slave masters and took them to the catacombs and burned one of them it was clearly a show of her grief and anger at both the murder of Barristan and the almost killing of Grey Worm. She was getting tired of having her people butcher by the Harpies who were clearly being financed by the former ruling families of Meereen. 

I don't have a problem with the burning of the khals, they were talking to her about how they were going to rape her to death and laughing about it. She had offered them a bargain and they refused, they lost. And the scene with Tyrion was weird but I think it was poorly written. In the end after what happen it seemed clear it was meant to show that Dany can listen to reason even when she's angry. 

The leaks are poorly written so I don't know how the scene with the Tarly's will play out. But knowing Dany and her relationship with Tyrion, it seems to me that he would be more angry at the bad PR that can come from Dany burning people. 

Xaro once called the dragons "a flaming sword" and that's exactly what they are for Dany, her sword. 

4 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Sansa smiled ... as she walked away from Ramsay, Isshe on psychpath, mad route too? Not like Cersei wasn't crazy psycho bitch before, even if show is trying to make her more human. 

 

 It's that convo of Dany and Tyrion in BOTB episode. She's not her father, Targ ruthless yes, but not mad, insane or sadist.

This too. The show-runners were very clear about this last season. However, clumsy some of their scenes came out. 

[Meera of Tarth]

6 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Sansa smiled ... as she walked away from Ramsay, Isshe on psychpath, mad route too? Not like Cersei wasn't crazy psycho bitch before, even if show is trying to make her more human. 

 

 It's that convo of Dany and Tyrion in BOTB episode. She's not her father, Targ ruthless yes, but not mad, insane or sadist.

Oh thanks!

Well, this doesn't mean she won't turn mad in the future (they are describing her at this moment).

I personally think she could still become mad (they wouldn't spoil that) but definitely not as mad as Aerys. And that is consistent with what we have seen. They comment that even good Targaryens are harsh.

[lidsa]

3 minutes ago, Leticia Stark said:

the scene where she burns all the Khals kind of creeped me out.

Word. It reminded me of the astronaut in "Sunshine" that went mad. (I saw that movie when I was a kid and it creeped me out for weeks.)

4 minutes ago, Leticia Stark said:

LMAO! OK, he definitely isn't a outstanding actor but his acting is definitely better than it was in the first seasons. So it's good that the scenes are happening now.

True, he did get better later on. But he's always had the misfortune of being surrounded by better actors. Tyrion, Jeor, Mance, Tormund, Davos... and now some of them are also going to be contrasting Emilia Clarke.

[dsug]

Violence =/= madness all the time

Just as easily as you can say "Dany burns the Tarlys because shes craaaAAAaazy," I can say "Dany killed her opponents in a war." 

Stannis burned people alive for less logical reasons, and you all still have such a boner for him. If Dany killing her enemies makes she insane, Ned killing Arthur Dayne makes him insane, Tyrion killing Tywin makes him insane, Jon killing Janos makes him insane, etc etc. 

As we know it now, nothing dany does to the tarlys points to madness. That may change as the season progresses, and if she's genuinely becoming unhinged, you are fair to make that assumption. But as of today, that is not a logical assumption to make. 

[Meera of Tarth]

2 minutes ago, MoIaF said:

I don't think there is any indication in the show that Dan is going mad or that we are suppose to think that she is going mad. They do show that she's both incredibly compassionate but also ruthless. Tyrion is suppose to finesse the ruthlessness and the rashness she can sometimes display. 

In season 5 when Dany rounded up the slave masters and took them to the catacombs and burned one of them it was clearly a show of her grief and anger at both the murder of Barristan and the almost killing of Grey Worm. She was getting tired of having her people butcher by the Harpies who were clearly being financed by the former ruling families of Meereen. 

 

And the way this ruthlessness comes into play could be like madness without good advisors.

[Le Cygne]

2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Oh thanks!

Well, this doesn't mean she won't turn mad in the future (they are describing her at this moment).

I personally think she could still become mad (they wouldn't spoil that) but definitely not as mad as Aerys. And that is consistent with what we have seen. They comment that even good Targaryens are harsh.

Indeed. They always talk in terms of the episode at hand. They tease about future events, like I wonder what will happen if she gets to Westeros. But they don't give away spoilers like that.

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Leticia Stark said:

Not saying Dany is going to be mad like Cersei, but the scene where she burns all the Khals kind of creeped me out.
Some can say that she did it because they were her enemies, but still...

I suppose it depends whether you think that was self-defence or not.  Plainly, she didn't want to spend the rest of her life in the Dosh Khaleen, regardless whether the Khals thought  it was an honour.  OTOH, she plainly intended to kill them as soon as she entered the room, and had no interest of trying to negotiate with them. They threatened to rape her, but only after she had told them what a waste of space they were.

On the general point, I think it can be very hard to distinguish mental illness from extreme behaviour on the part of people in positions of great power.  What most of us would consider to be personality flaws (eg intense jealousy, paranoia, vindictiveness) can spur people on into positions of leadership.  Someone like Nixon had immense character flaws, but was he mad?

[Le Cygne]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I suppose it depends whether you think that was self-defence or not.  Plainly, she didn't want to spend the rest of her life in the Dosh Khaleen, regardless whether the Khals thought  it was an honour.  OTOH, she plainly intended to kill them as soon as she entered the room, and had no interest of trying to negotiate with them. They threatened to rape her, but only after she had told them what a waste of space they were.

On the general point, I think it can be very hard to distinguish mental illness from extreme behaviour on the part of people in positions of great power.  What most of us would consider to be personality flaws (eg intense jealousy, paranoia, vindictiveness) can spur people on into positions of leadership.  Someone like Nixon had immense character flaws, but was he mad?

But again I would say, are they repeatedly juxtaposing images and deeds of Nixon's mad father with him? This is a story, so if they show her repeatedly burning people, and caring less and less, with repeated hints about her father throughout the narrative, from season to season, then that's something to consider.

[Lord Friendzone]

Just now, lidsa said:

But nothing about his Starkness changes. He was half a Stark (by blood) before he found out he was Lyanna's, and he's half a Stark (by blood) after he finds out. He never had the name anyway.

Yes, to Sansa or to Arya. I no longer believe that's where things are going, but to me that's what books 1-3 have been leading up to, for Jon to get with Arya. That's why I said "in theory" he could marry into the name now.

As he said to Stannis he always wanted to be Jon Stark, but he won't be. Ned is not his father and that is a huge deal for him. Being legitimized Targ, so he'll never be Stark in name is acrushing blow. Which is why show won't go with Jon Stark. Too many changes because his faith lies with Targ name more than Stark one. This is what I was talking about.

In theory many things could happen, such as Dany being mad etc, but not much of realistic chance, if you ask me.

So you're telling me all of sudden he's going to see Sansa and Arya, who he has long standing brother/sister bond in a different light and marry them? People argue how it will be, when Jon finds out, he's sleeping with his aunt who he has no familial bond prior. How do you think he would react to this potentional marriage to Sansa or Arya? If show is any indication to future in the books, I don't think so. You're not all of sudden going to see someone you saw previously in the light of being sister, to "yeah we're cousins let's marry." Jon becoming Targ won't change their bond.

 

[Meera of Tarth]

7 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Indeed. They always talk in terms of the episode at hand. They tease about future events, like I wonder what will happen when she gets to Westeros. But they don't give away spoilers like that.

Also with Cersei, IIRC they said that "what will it happen now that she has no children" and then, according to the leaks, she gets pregnant again.

of course, this part of the leaks could be fake.

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I suppose it depends whether you think that was self-defence or not.  Plainly, she didn't want to spend the rest of her life in the Dosh Khaleen, regardless whether the Khals thought  it was an honour.  OTOH, she plainly intended to kill them as soon as she entered the room, and had no interest of trying to negotiate with them. They threatened to rape her, but only after she had told them what a waste of space they were.

On the general point, I think it can be very hard to distinguish mental illness from extreme behaviour on the part of people in positions of great power.  What most of us would consider to be personality flaws (eg intense jealousy, paranoia, vindictiveness) can spur people on into positions of leadership.  Someone like Nixon had immense character flaws, but was he mad?

Yes, and no, I mean, I think there is a boundary even in ancient leaders. She defends a harsh way of justice, but consistent with their times. However, that part with the khals was too much for me. She didn't let them defend their lives even if she knew they were bad. She just killed them instantly and they didn't have the occasion to beg to her or anything.

[dsug]

it will take a lot to get me to like the cersei pregnancy, if thats true. thats the only part that i think we will truly have to wait and see about. it's not like she'll be far enough along for us to be able to tell, and even if she was, its not like they'd be showing her with a baby bump in trailers and stuff.