Pain killer Jane Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 1 hour ago, ravenous reader said: This one is interesting, in that the Night's Watchmen are compared to flies becoming embalmed in amber, which is what I was hinting at in the reference to amber's preservative aspect (the flies fossilized for eternity in amber are 'undead' in a sense, like the Night's Watchmen we've speculated having been transformed into cold and/or fire wights): And what's interesting in that scene, is that it is two brothers (as they are both NW and they are Reachmen), one is a hunter as he is a Tarly, exiled because of the favorite son, and is learning to become a grey crow. The other is Dareon (his name always leads me to spell it Daeron as in the Young dragon and the Good King), is a singer, accused of raping a daughter of Mathis Rowen (the house descended from Rowan Gold-Tree and therefore parallels Rhaegar) turned into a crow, is described as having a voice like 'honey poured over thunder' and deserts the NW and is killed by Arya in Northern Justice fashion and she steels his boots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 11, 2017 Author Share Posted January 11, 2017 10 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said: And what's interesting in that scene, is that it is two brothers (as they are both NW and they are Reachmen), one is a hunter as he is a Tarly, exiled because of the favorite son, and is learning to become a grey crow. The other is Dareon (his name always leads me to spell it Daeron as in the Young dragon and the Good King), is a singer, accused of raping a daughter of Mathis Rowen (the house descended from Rowan Gold-Tree and therefore parallels Rhaegar) turned into a crow, is described as having a voice like 'honey poured over thunder' and deserts the NW and is killed by Arya in Northern Justice fashion and she steels his boots. Both of them go into the water, also, though at different times. One dies and one almost does. BTW Arya throwing his ass in the canal - offscreen - and then casually descxribing it in the third person to the Kindly Man - is one of my favorite bits of writing. So subtle, so cold, love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 26 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: In the manner of being bound and pinioned and riddled through by the 'grave worms' and 'milk snakes' of the weirwood, the greenseers do seem rather like prisoners! I've always maintained, since my nennymoan days, that the 'marriage' between man and tree is a tad 'unhealthy', to say the least! I agree. We can mesh Loki's myth with Prometheus and the version of Satan in the Inferno (who is both a prisoner and a warden of condemned souls in hell). I mentioned a few pages ago that while the number 13 can be a reference to the 12 disciplines and Jesus another derivative of that is 12 jurors and 1 judge (which always conjures up Portia's speech to the court about Justice and Mercy) as a euphemism for serving time in prison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 11, 2017 Author Share Posted January 11, 2017 Just now, Pain killer Jane said: I agree. We can mesh Loki's myth with Prometheus and the version of Satan in the Inferno (who is both a prisoner and a warden of condemned souls in hell). Yes, because "the fire of the gods" in ASOIAF is primarily Lightbringer and the weirwood. Possessing the fire of the gods is akin to being bound up in the weirwood. That's why we gets a dragon caught in there (Bloodraven) and a winter sun / son of winter too. All in all it seems like George is a tad skeptical of the "fire of the gods." Just now, Pain killer Jane said: I mentioned a few pages ago that while the number 13 can be a reference to the 12 disciplines and Jesus another derivative of that is 12 jurors and 1 judge (which always conjures up Portia's speech to the court about Justice and Mercy) as a euphemism for serving time in prison. I haven't forgotten that; how do you see that idea of judge and jury interacting with the last hero or NK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, LmL said: Both of them go into the water, also, though at different times. One dies and one almost does. BTW Arya throwing his ass in the canal - offscreen - and then casually descxribing it in the third person to the Kindly Man - is one of my favorite bits of writing. So subtle, so cold, love it. Yeah it was a really good scene. Doesn't Sam get saved by Xhondo, a Summer islander with a cloak of black and scarlet feathers? His name always makes me think of the old Western tv show Hondo, who travels around with his dog Sam stopping evil, remember we had a discussion about the Lone Ranger, a few weeks ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 36 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said: now that is a good way to see it. Quote I guess I am. I was thinking the saltpeter's connection to explosives and thus loosely fire and peat's ability to be on fire.. But hmm...that seems like a better connection. ETA: aren't the bodies found in peat bogs sacrifices? Yes, many of them. See this article detailing the various finds Bog bodies of the Iron Age and here, for a more detailed account, in 'The curious case of the bog bodies'. Seamus Heaney wrote a series of 'bog poems' inspired by the bog bodies I've been meaning to include one day in the poetry thread. 22 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said: described as having a voice like 'honey poured over thunder' 'Honey poured over thunder' reminds me of amber -- as does the 'Honeywine' (related to Arbor Gold and the Redwynes, isn't it?) 8 minutes ago, LmL said: how do you see that idea of judge and jury interacting with the last hero or NK? Quote A Game of Thrones - Bran I Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die. "One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is." That was when Jon reappeared on the crest of the hill before them. He waved and shouted down at them. "Father, Bran, come quickly, see what Robb has found!" Then he was gone again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 11, 2017 Author Share Posted January 11, 2017 Okay, so the last hero was a Stark and an executioner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, LmL said: I haven't forgotten that; how do you see that idea of judge and jury interacting with the last hero or NK? Judge and Jury, not so much the euphemism just as it is symbolically alludes to serving time in prison as in atoning for one's sins which is something you suggested as a backstory for Coldhands. My musings on Judge and Jury in relation to Justice and Mercy, Portia's speech in the Merchant of Venice and then relating to the series' version the Father and the Mother is super muddled as of right now and I can't really answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, LmL said: Okay, so the last hero was a Stark and an executioner? I think he might be all three. I think Ned's words' basic meaning is that he must seek justice (jury), consider mercy (judge) and be executioner (the hooded man). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, LmL said: Okay, so the last hero was a Stark and an executioner? I don't know what happened in the past; as you know, I'm more on top of speculating about the Last Hero in the future. If it's true he was sacrificing people to the Others, I guess he was a kind of executioner... As far as the Starks being cursed, I'm not sure why they're now the scapegoats selected for collective atonement. My interpretation of the passage I quoted is that Bran is being trained by Ned (and then later Jon) to prepare for his own death in the future. I see Bran being judge, jury, executioner, sacrifice -- sentence and saviour in one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 1 minute ago, ravenous reader said: I don't know what happened in the past; as you know, I'm more on top of speculating about the Last Hero in the future. If it's true he was sacrificing people to the Others, I guess he was a kind of executioner... As far as the Starks being cursed, I'm not sure why they're now the scapegoats selected for collective atonement. My interpretation of the passage I quoted is that Bran is being trained by Ned (and then later Jon) to prepare for his own death in the future. I see Bran being judge, jury, executioner, sacrifice -- sentence and saviour in one. now that is better way. Isn't there a motif or theme in novels where the savior has the choice to either condemn humanity or save it at expense of themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 23 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: 'Honey poured over thunder' reminds me of amber -- as does the 'Honeywine' (related to Arbor Gold and the Redwynes, isn't it?) The Honeywine is more associated with House Hightower and the isle of Ravens is smack right in the middle of it with the Citadel around it.The name would be related as honey can be produced from resin and not just pollen and the amber wines is always described as sweet. So I can say perhaps. I would need to pour over the mentions of amber, honey and wine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 1 hour ago, ravenous reader said: The Naathi have many similarities with the Children of the Forest, including this suggestion of sorcery -- how else is it that the strangers from beyond the sea seeking to conquer Naath 'do not live long' and soon succumb on the 'peaceful' Isle of Butterflies, given that the Naathi 'do not kill' and 'make music, not war'? (the latter sounds like the Children of the Forest and their innocuous-sounding yet potent sorcery euphemistically entitled the Song of the Earth) And we have three brothers enslaved, whose fertility was taken from them and are now soldiers that imbibe a beverage to make them go berserk (as in Odin's scared warriors) and their sister, who has the body of a child but has the mind of an adult and is a scribe, a person with knowledge and thus has a lot of power especially now that she has the ear of a Dragon Queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 35 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: Yes, many of them. See this article detailing the various finds Bog bodies of the Iron Age and here, for a more detailed account, in 'The curious case of the bog bodies'. Seamus Heaney wrote a series of 'bog poems' inspired by the bog bodies I've been meaning to include one day in the poetry thread. Nice thank you. Another form of sacrifice is added to the pile for the mana essays..... Nice I can't wait to read it. I am working on the Lady of Shallot by Alfred, Lord Tennyson and She walks in Beauty since I mentioned it and no one took the bait on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 11, 2017 Author Share Posted January 11, 2017 16 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said: And we have three brothers enslaved, whose fertility was taken from them and are now soldiers that imbibe a beverage to make them go berserk (as in Odin's scared warriors) Are you likening these to the Others? 16 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said: and their sister, who has the body of a child but has the mind of an adult and is a scribe, a person with knowledge and thus has a lot of power especially now that she has the ear of a Dragon Queen. a cotf in other words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 29 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: I don't know what happened in the past; as you know, I'm more on top of speculating about the Last Hero in the future. If it's true he was sacrificing people to the Others, I guess he was a kind of executioner... As far as the Starks being cursed, I'm not sure why they're now the scapegoats selected for collective atonement. You know I just thought of something, this could be why the Free Folk are on the other side of the wall. @LmL I am listening to this podcast again and you mentioned that Stannis says AA didn't win alone and I thought hmm could the Free Folk be descendants of exiles like let's say the Golden Company, in this case "Under the Snow, the dragonsteel...." since it seems that the Free Folk will be Jon's primary supporting army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 1 minute ago, LmL said: Are you likening these to the Others? I wasn't and it never crossed my mind. But I can see it, if the Others are burned (destroyed fertile) men turned into Snow warriors and we have the NQ being the mother of the Others than it could parallel the unsullied's genitals being burned on the altar of a mother goddess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 11, 2017 Author Share Posted January 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said: You know I just thought of something, this could be why the Free Folk are on the other side of the wall. @LmL I am listening to this podcast again and you mentioned that Stannis says AA didn't win alone and I thought hmm could the Free Folk be descendants of exiles like let's say the Golden Company, in this case "Under the Snow, the dragonsteel...." since it seems that the Free Folk will be Jon's primary supporting army. That's an interesting thought, something has to explain the free folk... they are definitely tied to old FM culture - I mentioned they seem to have the horned figure myth from the south. I think the Thenns are the key to figuring out what is up with the Wildlings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 11, 2017 Author Share Posted January 11, 2017 Just now, Pain killer Jane said: I wasn't and it never crossed my mind. But I can see it, if the Others are burned (destroyed fertile) men turned into Snow warriors and we have the NQ being the mother of the Others than it could parallel the unsullied's genitals being burned on the altar of a mother goddess. The unsullied are called brick soldiers, if that helps.But you know me - I always ay look to the text. If we want to figure out what Unsullied symbolize, we have only to read those passages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, LmL said: That's an interesting thought, something has to explain the free folk... they are definitely tied to old FM culture - I mentioned they seem to have the horned figure myth from the south. I think the Thenns are the key to figuring out what is up with the Wildlings. Definitely especially now since their Magnar married a horse/dying star wolf girl and made a new sun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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