The Long Night's Watch - the Undead Companions of the Last Hero

[Pain killer Jane]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

The unsullied are called brick soldiers, if that helps.But you know me - I always ay look to the text. If we want to figure out what Unsullied symbolize, we have only to read those passages.

You're right. More research. I always likened the Unsuillied to the Wild Hares. I haven't really gotten to liking them to Others. 

And you know whats interesting the forced sacrifice of Varys' fertility could be related to the Golden Company also being related to the Others. So we might have to relate the Others, the Free Folk (the mountain clans in both the north and the vale), the Unsullied, and the Golden Company together. 

eta: the NW as well.

[Pain killer Jane]

14 minutes ago, LmL said:

The unsullied are called brick soldiers, if that helps.But you know me - I always ay look to the text. If we want to figure out what Unsullied symbolize, we have only to read those passages.

being called brick soldiers works because of the red earth being baked by the sun and later fired in kilns (and btw lime, the material was used as a mortar for brick building) and this relates to Bran being a the little clay boy and doesn't Dany receive toy soldiers?

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

Hey LmL!  Been very busy work-wise so not had much time to contribute anything, but I'm still keeping up!

This is a bit of a tangent, but I know you're interested in the 2 magic swords and you also like to check out George's possible influences.  I accidentally came across a 1960s book series called The History Of The Runestaff by Michael Moorcock - is it something you're already aware of? I don't know how well known it is, so I could be the only person who's not heard of it!! If you've not heard of it already, I thought you might find this interesting / amusing

It's a futuristic fantasy (but still very 'swords and sorcery') set in our own world.  Some of the names / ideas are quite familiar to a reader of ASOIAF. The third book is The Sword of the Dawn and includes a dude called Hawkmoon (made me think of House Arryn) who has to travel to Starvel to find this magical Sword Of The Dawn which has been stolen by pirates. The sword contains the Legion Of The Dawn, which is an army of ghostly warriors. Hawkmoon and his companion are also helped by The Warrior in Jet and Gold (not quite black & red but interestingly dark and gem / precious metal related), who tells them to unleash the Legion Of The Dawn to defeat the pirates.  It isn't really similar plot-wise, but the whole Starfall / Sword of the Morning thing made me smile, as did the dark warrior figure and the ghost legion after reading your zombie Nights Watch theories .  It also made me ponder whether a skinchanger (or anybody) could partly 'inhabit' a sword that had drunk their blood or give it some of their strength somehow ( a bit like Nissa Nissa)

Thanks again for the great podcasts and all this food for thought!

[Lost Melnibonean]

25 minutes ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

Hey LmL!  Been very busy work-wise so not had much time to contribute anything, but I'm still keeping up!

This is a bit of a tangent, but I know you're interested in the 2 magic swords and you also like to check out George's possible influences.  I accidentally came across a 1960s book series called The History Of The Runestaff by Michael Moorcock - is it something you're already aware of? I don't know how well known it is, so I could be the only person who's not heard of it!! If you've not heard of it already, I thought you might find this interesting / amusing

It's a futuristic fantasy (but still very 'swords and sorcery') set in our own world.  Some of the names / ideas are quite familiar to a reader of ASOIAF. The third book is The Sword of the Dawn and includes a dude called Hawkmoon (made me think of House Arryn) who has to travel to Starvel to find this magical Sword Of The Dawn which has been stolen by pirates. The sword contains the Legion Of The Dawn, which is an army of ghostly warriors. Hawkmoon and his companion are also helped by The Warrior in Jet and Gold (not quite black & red but interestingly dark and gem / precious metal related), who tells them to unleash the Legion Of The Dawn to defeat the pirates.  It isn't really similar plot-wise, but the whole Starfall / Sword of the Morning thing made me smile, as did the dark warrior figure and the ghost legion after reading your zombie Nights Watch theories .  It also made me ponder whether a skinchanger (or anybody) could partly 'inhabit' a sword that had drunk their blood or give it some of their strength somehow ( a bit like Nissa Nissa)

Thanks again for the great podcasts and all this food for thought!

Dorian Hawkmoon, another incarnation of the Champion Eternal. I loved those books when I was a kid. 

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Dorian Hawkmoon, another incarnation of the Champion Eternal. I loved those books when I was a kid. 

Happy to bring some nostalgia your way 

Are they very well known? I did think "am I going to thrown in these books that everyone has already heard of except me!?" 

[LmL]

9 minutes ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

Happy to bring some nostalgia your way 

Are they very well known? I did think "am I going to thrown in these books that everyone has already heard of except me!?" 

We've discussed the basics of Eldric before - I am a big fan of his magical black sword, because I believe Azor Ahai's sword was a black one. But you know we aren't going to be throwing any books around here Lady FishyB  We value books too much.  Besides, we needs books for @ravenous reader reader to chew on to keep her busy when nobody is posting new material on the forums. Else it gets a bit tense.

And as for the Hawkmoon thing, yes, we already figure that the falcon in the Arryn sigil would be the comet, and the moon is the moon, so the idea of a 'Hawkmoon' monicker in proximity to the Sword of Dawn and all the rest makes sense. Also interesting we have the dark lord figure unleashing the Others-equivalent for the supposed good of humanity, right?

[Bluetiger]

@Pain killer Jane asked me to try to find the myth of Jurata and Kastytis, so here it is:

Amber is fossilized tree resin, often found on sea shores in regions where dense woods used to exists millions of years ago. It's often called 'sea-resin' or 'northern gold'. It's been used both in art and religion for thousands of years.

On the Baltic sea coast, amber was very important export product - a trade route between Mediterranean and Baltic seas existed from at least sixteenth century BC - it was called Amber Road.

Because of its importance to tribes and peoples of Baltic sea - and its mysterious origins -  many local legends and myths were created about it.

Amber often appears on the sandy and stony beaches after storms, especially in late autumn and winter, so it's featured in nearly all legends - as tears of gods or remains of destroyed underwater palaces, castles, cities etc.

In Greek mythology amber was featured in the myth of Helios's sun (sun's son) Phaethon

To quote http://www.dragonflyamber.com/about_our_amber/amber_legends/

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There are many myths surrounding the origin of amber. In Greek mythology, Ovid wrote about Phaethon, who convinced his father Helios, the Sun God, to allow him to drive the chariot of the sun across the sky for a day. He drove too close to the earth, setting it on fire. To save the earth, Zeus struck Phaethon out of the sky with his thunderbolts, plunging him into the sea. His sisters (the Heliades, the daughters of Helios, the Sun), turned into poplar trees on the bank of the Eridanus River,

Where sorrowing they weep into the stream forever. And each tear as it falls shines in the water, a glistening drop of amber.

From Wikipedia:

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The classical names for amber, Latin electrum and Ancient Greek ἤλεκτρον (ēlektron), are connected to a term ἠλέκτωρ (ēlektōr) meaning "beaming Sun".According to myth, when Phaëton son of Helios (the Sun) was killed, his mourning sisters became poplar trees, and their tears became elektron, amber.

To quote http://www.dragonflyamber.com/about_our_amber/amber_legends/ again:

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A Lithuanian amber myth tells about the story of lost love. Perkunas, God of Thunder, was the father God and his daughter was Jurate, a mermaid who lived in an amber palace in the Baltic. One day a fisherman named Kastytis would cast his nets to catch fish from Jurate's kingdom. The goddess sent her mermaids to warn him to stop fishing in her domain. He did not stop, so Jurate went herself to demand he stop. Once she saw him she fell in love and brought him back to her amber palace. Perkunas, knowing Jurate was promised to Patrimpas, God of Water, was angered to find his daughter in love with a mortal. Perkunas destroyed the amber palace with a bolt of lightening to kill her mortal lover. Her palace was destroyed and Jurate was chained to the ruins for eternity. When storms in the Baltic stir the sea, fragments from the amber palace wash up on shore. Pieces in the shape of tears are particularly treasured, as they are the tears from the grieving goddess, as she weeps tears of amber for her tragic love.

Amber has a pine aroma when heated, and the ancient Germans used amber and burned it as incense, and called it bernstein, or "burn stone."

This legend has many versions:

From Wikipedia:

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The plot greatly varies between the different versions. However, the basic facts remain the same. Goddess (sometimes described as a mermaid or undine) Jūratė (from the noun jūra meaning the sea) lived under the Baltic Sea in a beautiful amber castle. She ruled the sea and all of the sea-life. A young fisherman named Kastytis was disturbing the peace as he was catching a lot of fish. Jūratė decided to punish him and restore the peace, but she fell in love with the handsome young fisherman. They spent some happy times in the castle, but Perkūnas, the thunder-god, found out that the immortal goddess had fallen in love with a mortal man. He became furious and struck the amber castle. It exploded into millions of pieces. Then Jūratė was chained to either the ruins or a rock on the seafloor by Perkūnas. According to legend, that is why pieces of amber come ashore after a storm on the Baltic Sea.

Jūratė rescued Kastytis from drowning in a storm. According to other variations, Kastytis was killed by Perkūnas and Jūratė mourns him to this day. Her tear drops are amber pieces washed ashore and one could hear her sad voice in a stormy sea. Sometimes it is said that Kastytis comes from Šventoji town north of Palanga.

Site of Amber Museum in Kaliningrad proves to be a great source here:

http://www.ambermuseum.ru/en/home/about_amber/legends

(spoiler tags, as it's a bit long)

 

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Since people learned to use amber, which happened at least 5–6 thousand years ago, attempts have been made many times to unravel the mystery of its origin.

Both scientific works and folklore have come up with versions that have not yielded to each other in the degree of their irreality.

At present no one doubts that amber is a mineral of organic origin belonging to the category of typical resins. However, it took quite a long time for scientists to reach a consensus on this matter..

Some researchers were, for example, convinced that amber was hardened oil, others tended to consider amber as fossilized honey of wild bees. Hypotheses were also put forward that amber was sea-foam that had hardened under the influence of sun beams; amber was considered to be a product of vital functions of forest ants, solidified “sun ether”, mountain oil, earth mineral fertilizer and so on.

It is not surprising that there were a lot of hypotheses. Amber is not only completely different from other semi-precious stones, but it itself featured such a great variety of forms, textures, structures, sizes, it demonstrated such a wealth of colours, it possessed such unusual chemical and physical qualities that in the past the mineral quite often nonplussed researchers. Indeed, 
what is it: it burns in fire like coal crackling and smoking; it melts when heated without access of air; it produces static electricity if rubbed; some kinds of amber float in salty water. The stone is warm to the touch. Besides, one can see different insects inside some amber pieces. How did they get there? Since amber is often found on the sea shore, but butterflies and flies, as is known, have never lived in the sea…

While scientists were busy looking for the truth carefully gathering evidence, people were fast to explain everything by miraculous and supernatural forces. 

It always happens this way: where mind and logic are powerless, scope for creativity appears, imagination starts working. The organ responsible for imagination is especially well developed in children and in young peoples.

That is why all the legends about amber emerged at the dawn of civilization. 

First of all, ancient peoples endowed amber itself with supernatural qualities. Some primitive tribes used articles from amber in their magic rites. Amber amulets were worn as protection from diseases and against being killed in a battle. People believed that amber “pulled out” a disease from the body and “attracted” good luck – in the same way as it attracts small objects if you slightly rub it. It was believed that amber adornments averted misfortune, guarded from the evil eye, brought luck in love, and made a man stronger and cleverer…

Amber qualities are, of course, grossly exaggerated here, but something is accepted by modern science. 

Amber undoubtedly has a positive impact on the nervous system, its “sunny” colour is pleasant to see, and touching its warm smooth surface is not only enjoyable but it helps one to concentrate, enhances one’s self-reliance.

Besides, they say that constant wearing amber adornments betters the condition of those having problems with the thyroid gland; amber relieves pain in case of joints inflammation, calcification.

As regards legends about amber, if one considers them carefully, some grains of truth can occasionally be found in them among numerous fabulous circumstances and details.

For example, an ancient Greek myth of Phaethon (that reached us in the interpretation of the Roman poet Publius Ovidius Naso born in 43 BC) definitely indicates the vegetable origin of amber – long before scientists came to the same conclusion.

The subject of tears is present in almost all the legends about amber. Occasionally they tell about tragedies of cosmic scale. The idea of dramatic events connected with the birth of amber was obviously suggested by the teardrop shape of some pieces of the natural stone.

Thus, in Sophocles’ (5th century BC) tragedy amber is the tears over the dead hero Meleager who was a victim of the mother’s imprecation.

In the Lithuanian legend of Jurate and Kastitis it is the Sea Goddess who sheds tears of amber mourning over her beloved. 

In all the legends amber is a piece of news from the past containing a certain hidden meaning. Many people try to read the “message” – and every nation does it in its own way. 

In Russ amber was called “alatyr” or “latyrstone”. “White and combustible is the alatyr stone”, lying “in the sea Ocean, on the Buyan island”, as the folk songs, fairy tales and old charms run. And the “combustibility” of amber, i.e. its ability to burn, is emphasized as one of its characteristic features. 

The Russian people also have a fairy tale-parable about the singing stone that can only be heard by a man with a clear heart.

And the Baltic legend of the Gauya Bird links the origin of amber with a crime to which a cruel king of a foreign country incited his loyal servant.

The poetic perception of facts and phenomena of life, the mythologization of reality that was characteristic of ancient peoples preceded the scientific cognition of the world.

In the transformed and mythologized form legends have retained and carried through centuries the information about actual events, have brought us the ancient knowledge that sometimes surpassed and anticipated the further directions of the scientific search.

(http://www.ambermuseum.ru/en/home/about_amber/legends)

 

Myth of Phaethon:

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Phaethon was the son of the God of Sun Helios. His mother was also of divine origin, although not as high as her husband – she was the daughter of the Sea Goddess Thetis. Apparently, Phaethon was an extremely proud young man, and pride, as is known, will have a fall.

Once a relative of his, having decided to play a joke, said that Phaethon’s father was not at all the God of Sun but a mere mortal. He should have known, what a huge impact the silly joke would have on the humankind! The shocked Phaethon rushed to his mother and demanded explanations from her, and Clymene sent him straight to the God of Sun so that the latter himself could dispel all the doubts. Helios, willing to console the upset boy, swore to fulfill any of his wishes to prove their natural cognation. And Phaethon, taking an advantage of it, immediately demanded his father to let him go for a ride in his golden chariot, in which the God of Sun daily – from dawn till sunset – makes his journey in the sky warming and lighting up the earth.

In spite of Helios’s trying to persuade him to give up the reckless wish, Phaethon insisted. And the God of Sun, unfortunately, could not break the oath that he had been too hasty to take. And since the chariot only had a single seat in it, he had to entrust his son with the reins of government. Helios, of course, tried to give him a lot of useful advice and instructions, but Phaethon turned a deaf ear to his father’s words. He was so happy that his dream had finally come true.

Unfortunately, the poor boy did not know what it all would result in. He was not strong and skilled enough to manage the winged horses; they rushed leaving the road – at one moment soaring up high to the stars, at another sweeping along the earth as a fire whirlwind. Forests and towns on the earth caught fire; the sky was covered with black smoke. All living things were threatened terrible destruction.

And then the Goddess of Earth Gaea screamed out loud: 
– Oh, mighty Zeus! Save me!
Hearing Gaea’s supplication, Zeus the Thunderer threw a lightning to Phaethon’s chariot and broke it to pieces. The horses scattered, and Phaethon enveloped in flames shot in the sky and fell on the bank of the Eridanus River. 

His mother Clymene and sisters Heliades having found the boy’s body cried over him for so long and so bitterly, that gods feeling sorry for them, turned them into poplars. But even then the Sun’s daughters’ grief did not abate. Forever bending over Eridanus, they are dropping resin tears in the cold waters of the
river. The drops harden in the water and turn into amber.

(http://www.ambermuseum.ru/en/home/about_amber/legends/phaethon_myth)

 

Legend of Jurate:

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In the Lithuanian legend of Jurate and Kastytis it is the Sea Goddess who sheds tears of amber mourning over her beloved.

Unfortunately, Jurate fell in love with a mere mortal. A young fisherman Kastytis won the heart of the Goddess with his songs. Listening with delight to the songs, Jurate quite forgot that immortal gods were not allowed to enjoy fleeting
human happiness.

She allured Kastytis to the seabed into her amber castle, and the loving couple lost track of time. But the Lord of Gods Perkunas found out that the Sea Goddess condescended to a mere mortal and he severely punished both of them – he
struck Kastytis with a thunderbolt, destroyed the amber castle, and chained Jurate with gold chains to the ruins of the underwater palace. That was the high price that she had to pay for her short happiness.

Years and centuries pass, but the immortal Goddess is still suffering. Perhaps, she regrets her light-mindedness – who knows? Day by day, looking at the lifeless body of her beloved, enmeshed in heavy golden chains, she is shedding bitter tears. The cold sea depths are beginning to sway from her inconsolable sobbing. A storm is rising. The storming sea is rolling its waves towards the shore throwing onto the sand splinters of the amber castle and small hardened drops – Jurate’s tears.

(http://www.ambermuseum.ru/en/home/about_amber/legends/jurate_and_kastytis)

Polish version is quite similar, but there are few exceptions:

- Jurata is Queen of the Sea, not daughter of the sea god.

- Perkunas isn't her father or king but lover who gets jealous 

- Castitis the Fisherman was very skilled at his job, so the fish went to the queen to complain

- she got furious and plotted to have him killed

- Juarta took her most beautiful nymphs and mermiads and set a trap for Castitis - they were to lure him underwater with songs and dance, where she'd drown him. It worked - fisherman fell in love with them and jumped into the sea

- but when she was about to finish him, she looked in his eyes and fell in love

- they loved for some time in her amber palace under the sea, but her lover (usually, in few versions it's her father) found out and cast down a thunderbolt. The amber palace burned and was ruined, Jurata died inside, but fisherman escaped.  Now he wonders for eternity at the sea bottom. The roar of waves coming to shore is his weeping.

 

As you see, that's really similar to the legend of Durran Godsgrief and Elenei:

From ACoK:

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Across rain-sodden fields and stony ridges, she could see the great castle of Storm's End rearing up against the sky, its back to the unseen sea. Beneath that mass of pale grey stone, the encircling army of Lord Stannis Baratheon looked as small and insignificant as mice with banners.

The songs said that Storm's End had been raised in ancient days by Durran, the first Storm King, who had won the love of the fair Elenei, daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind. On the night of their wedding, Elenei had yielded her maidenhood to a mortal's love and thus doomed herself to a mortal's death, and her grieving parents had unleashed their wrath and sent the winds and waters to batter down Durran's hold. His friends and brothers and wedding guests were crushed beneath collapsing walls or blown out to sea, but Elenei sheltered Durran within her arms so he took no harm, and when the dawn came at last he declared war upon the gods and vowed to rebuild.

Five more castles he built, each larger and stronger than the last, only to see them smashed asunder when the gale winds came howling up Shipbreaker Bay, driving great walls of water before them. His lords pleaded with him to build inland; his priests told him he must placate the gods by giving Elenei back to the sea; even his smallfolk begged him to relent. Durran would have none of it. A seventh castle he raised, most massive of all. Some said the children of the forest helped him build it, shaping the stones with magic; others claimed that a small boy told him what he must do, a boy who would grow to be Bran the Builder. No matter how the tale was told, the end was the same. Though the angry gods threw storm after storm against it, the seventh castle stood defiant, and Durran Godsgrief and fair Elenei dwelt there together until the end of their days.

And from TWOIAF:

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Moreover, a tradition developed amongst the Storm Kings of old for naming the king's firstborn son and heir after Durran Godsgrief, founder of their line, further compounding the difficulties of the historian. The bewildering number of King Durrans has inevitably caused much confusion. The maesters of the Citadel of Oldtown have given numbers to many of these monarchs, in order to distinguish one from the other, but that was not the practice of the singers (unreliable at the best of times) who are our chief source for these times.

The legends surrounding the founder of House Durrandon, Durran Godsgrief, all come to us through the singers. The songs tell us that Durran won the heart of Elenei, daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind. By yielding to a mortal's love, Elenei doomed herself to a mortal's death, and for this the gods who had given her birth hated the man she had taken for her lord husband. In their wroth, they sent howling winds and lashing rains to knock down every castle Durran dared to build, until a young boy helped him erect one so strong and cunningly made that it could defy their gales. The boy grew to be Brandon the Builder; Durran became the first Storm King. With Elenei at his side, he lived and reigned at Storm's End for a thousand years, or so the stories claim.

(Such a life span seems most unlikely, even for a hero married to the daughter of two gods. Archmaester Glaive, himself a stormlander by birth, once suggested that this King of a Thousand Years was in truth a succession of monarchs all bearing the same name, which seems plausible but must forever remain unproved.)

(...)

The history of the building of Storm's End is known to us only through songs and stories—the tales of Durran Godsgrief and fair Elenei, daughter of two gods. Supposedly it was the seventh of the castles that Durran raised in that spot (though that number may well be a later interpolation of the Faith).

Storm's End is surely an old castle, but when compared to the ruined ringforts of the First Men or even the First Keep of Winterfell (which a past maester in service to the Starks examined and found to have been rebuilt so many times that a precise dating could not be made), the great tower and perfectly joined stones of the Storm's End curtain wall seem much beyond what the First Men were capable of for many thousands of years. The great effort involved in raising the Wall was one thing, but that was more a brute effort than the high art needed to make a wall where even the wind cannot find purchase. Archmaester Vyron, in his Triumphs and Defeats, speculates that the tale's claim that the final form of Storm's End was the seventh castle shows a clear Andal influence, and if true, this suggests the possibility that the final form of the castle was only achieved in Andal times. Mayhaps the castle was rebuilt on the site of earlier castles, but if so, it was long after Durran Godsgrief and his fair Elenei had passed from this earth.

 

So the ASOIAF story is like a twisted, opposite version - they build castle on land, not on the sea, they live happily ever after, the storm gods fail to destroy their palace, Elenei comes to live on land - Durran (Castitis) doesn't have to come to her in the sea. 

I belive that Elenei might have been a COTF woman, and she was the one th help Durran in building.

People of Naath have large amber eyes, so probably they're related to the COTF - who have yellow-brown-orange eyes - that sounds like amber, but GRRM has never used that word to describe them.

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Northwest of Sothoryos, in the Summer Sea, lies the mysterious island of Naath, known to the ancients as the Isle of Butterflies. The people native to the island are a beautiful and gentle race, with round flat faces, dusky skin, and large, soft amber eyes, oft flecked with gold. The Peaceful People, the Naathi are called by seafarers, for they will not fight even in defense of their homes and persons. The Naathi do not kill, not even beasts of the field and wood; they eat fruit, not flesh, and make music, not war.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

Happy to bring some nostalgia your way 

Are they very well known? I did think "am I going to thrown in these books that everyone has already heard of except me!?" 

Elric of Melnibone was the more popular series by Moorcock. But Hawkmoon was a close second, I think. 

[Bluetiger]

16 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Glad to help. You should totally do Mesoamerican. I usually don't see a lot of that because of the sacrifice and bloodiness. I keep telling LmL that the one arm-ness of warriors (in the series) could be a reference to Mexica/Aztec warriors being granted the arms of sacrificed warriors they captured in battle and then cannibalizing them. The Yoruba religion is pretty neat as well as it gave birth to Voodoo, Hoodoo and Santeria.

Shame I can't tell more at this moment, but I can asure you that one day I'll write something involving Mesoamerican mythologies - cats are featured prominently there - and well... felines play extremely important part in my planned series. You probably wouldn't guess how important.

But currently I'm focused on writing and creating symbolism for  geographical region where Norse, Baltic, Anglo-Saxon and Celtic myths are much more fitting.

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Elric of Melnibone was the more popular series by Moorcock. But Hawkmoon was a close second, I think. 

Ahh! Is that the origin of your cool name?  I kept meaning to look it up.

Edit: looked it up now . I think I'm in the minority not knowing about this series!

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

Ahh! Is that the origin of your cool name?  I kept meaning to look it up.

Edit: looked it up now . I think I'm in the minority not knowing about this series!

To my knowledge the George has never acknowledged the influence of Moorcock's Elric and the Melnibonean dragonlords on ASOIAF, but I believe they were the inspiration, at least in part, for Bloodraven and the Valyrians. I would also submit that the close association of ASOIAF Houses with their sigils, particularly the animals, was inspired by the Granbretens and their masks in the History of the Runestaff/Hawkmoon saga. Moorcock was a leading influence in the fantasy genre in the 1960s and 1970s. 

[Pain killer Jane]

7 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

@Pain killer Jane asked me to try to find the myth of Jurata and Kastytis, so here it is:

Thank so much for this massive amount of information and hard work. I especially like the Polish version of the Jurata and Kastytis myth as it sounds like the the Grey King, Drowned God and Naga. I don't remember if we ever got a story about why Aeron names the Drowned God, "he who drowned for us" and the Polish Version of the Kastytis sounds like the description of the Drowned God unless the Drowned God/Goddess we are talking about is Aegir and Ran. .

ETA: It is seems that we were right in considering that Amber is more important than it seems. So thank you for that. 

[Bluetiger]

17 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Thank so much for this massive amount of information and hard work. I especially like the Polish version of the Jurata and Kastytis myth as it sounds like the the Grey King, Drowned God and Naga. I don't remember if we ever got a story about why Aeron names the Drowned God, "he who drowned for us" and the Polish Version of the Kastytis sounds like the description of the Drowned God unless the Drowned God/Goddess we are talking about is Aegir and Ran. .

ETA: It is seems that we were right in considering that Amber is more important than it seems. So thank you for that. 

You're welcome

Anyway, I think that in order to save this thread we should create that Norse Stuff thread as soon as possible.

[Pain killer Jane]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

the close association of ASOIAF Houses with their sigils, particularly the animals, was inspired by the Granbretens and their masks in the History of the Runestaff/Hawkmoon saga. Moorcock was a leading influence in the fantasy genre in the 1960s and 1970s. 

That sounds like the Brazen beasts. 

[Bluetiger]

So, before I make the thread, let's gather at least few discussion topics:

Some already proposed are:

Cersei and Sif's golden hair

Valkyries

Arya Stark and Lady Hel

Nine Kingdoms of Westeros as Worlds of Yggdrasil

Wolves, horses and ravens in mythologies and ASOIAF

Baldr and Hodr

Ragnarok

Fafnir

One-eyed gods of ASOIAF and Odin

Wolves chasing the sun and the moon 

Weirwoods, Yggdrasil and norse tradition of family trees

Frost giants and the Others

Any other suggestions?

Which topic would you pick as first?

[LmL]

8 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

@Pain killer Jane asked me to try to find the myth of Jurata and Kastytis, so here it is:

Amber is fossilized tree resin, often found on sea shores in regions where dense woods used to exists millions of years ago. It's often called 'sea-resin' or 'northern gold'. It's been used both in art and religion for thousands of years.

On the Baltic sea coast, amber was very important export product - a trade route between Mediterranean and Baltic seas existed from at least sixteenth century BC - it was called Amber Road.

Because of its importance to tribes and peoples of Baltic sea - and its mysterious origins -  many local legends and myths were created about it.

Amber often appears on the sandy and stony beaches after storms, especially in late autumn and winter, so it's featured in nearly all legends - as tears of gods or remains of destroyed underwater palaces, castles, cities etc.

In Greek mythology amber was featured in the myth of Helios's sun (sun's son) Phaethon

To quote http://www.dragonflyamber.com/about_our_amber/amber_legends/

From Wikipedia:

To quote http://www.dragonflyamber.com/about_our_amber/amber_legends/ again:

This legend has many versions:

From Wikipedia:

Site of Amber Museum in Kaliningrad proves to be a great source here:

http://www.ambermuseum.ru/en/home/about_amber/legends

(spoiler tags, as it's a bit long)

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Myth of Phaethon:

 

Legend of Jurate:

Polish version is quite similar, but there are few exceptions:

- Jurata is Queen of the Sea, not daughter of the sea god.

- Perkunas isn't her father or king but lover who gets jealous 

- Castitis the Fisherman was very skilled at his job, so the fish went to the queen to complain

- she got furious and plotted to have him killed

- Juarta took her most beautiful nymphs and mermiads and set a trap for Castitis - they were to lure him underwater with songs and dance, where she'd drown him. It worked - fisherman fell in love with them and jumped into the sea

- but when she was about to finish him, she looked in his eyes and fell in love

- they loved for some time in her amber palace under the sea, but her lover (usually, in few versions it's her father) found out and cast down a thunderbolt. The amber palace burned and was ruined, Jurata died inside, but fisherman escaped.  Now he wonders for eternity at the sea bottom. The roar of waves coming to shore is his weeping.

 

As you see, that's really similar to the legend of Durran Godsgrief and Elenei:

From ACoK:

And from TWOIAF:

So the ASOIAF story is like a twisted, opposite version - they build castle on land, not on the sea, they live happily ever after, the storm gods fail to destroy their palace, Elenei comes to live on land - Durran (Castitis) doesn't have to come to her in the sea. 

I belive that Elenei might have been a COTF woman, and she was the one th help Durran in building.

People of Naath have large amber eyes, so probably they're related to the COTF - who have yellow-brown-orange eyes - that sounds like amber, but GRRM has never used that word to describe them.

 

 

1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Thank so much for this massive amount of information and hard work. I especially like the Polish version of the Jurata and Kastytis myth as it sounds like the the Grey King, Drowned God and Naga. I don't remember if we ever got a story about why Aeron names the Drowned God, "he who drowned for us" and the Polish Version of the Kastytis sounds like the description of the Drowned God unless the Drowned God/Goddess we are talking about is Aegir and Ran. .

ETA: It is seems that we were right in considering that Amber is more important than it seems. So thank you for that. 

 

47 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

You're welcome

Anyway, I think that in order to save this thread we should create that Norse Stuff thread as soon as possible.

No need, because mythical astronomy relates to everything in ASOIAF. For example, you research on amber as the tears of a goddess, and the myth of a man who took a mermaid goddess to wife, angered the gods, and triggered a divine storm is pretty much exactly the same as the Durran Godsgrief tale. And of course, the Godsgrief legends fit very much with the Ironborn legends. Elenei, as a daughter of sea and wind deities, is a mermaid type by default. She is the moon goddess who was pulled down into the sea, triggering island drowning tsunamis - the type Storm's End would have faced after a moon meteor crashed into the arm of Dorne. Elenei becomes a sea goddess, the drowned goddess, the sea dragon. She shelters Durran just as the sea dragon become a longhall (a shelter) for Grey King. As I mentioned in the Grey King episode, this may be George riffing on the biblical leviathan, whose skin makes a covering of light over the world. 

So, moon tears - we have talking about the meteors as the bloody tears of the moon many times. All the bloody tears in the book, torn out eyes - you guys know the drill. Recall the scene where the Wall is weeping at sunset and Jon sees the rivers of black ice turning to red fire as the light plays on the meltwater in the cracks of the Wall - the Wall's tears. Black ice and red fire. So the idea of Amber being the tears of a goddess - pretty consistently - who has been drowned... and who might be a tree...  yeah, that might be an idea George is thinking of. 

Great finds @Blue Tiger, thanks for sharing. Those were very enjoyable myths in their own right, ASOIAF aside.

[Pain killer Jane]

1 minute ago, Blue Tiger said:

So, before I make the thread, let's gather at least few discussion topics:

Some already proposed are:

Cersei and Sif's golden hair

Valkyries

Arya Stark and Lady Hel

Nine Kingdoms of Westeros as Worlds of Yggdrasil

Wolves, horses and ravens in mythologies and ASOIAF

Baldr and Hodr

Ragnarok

Fafnir

One-eyed gods of ASOIAF and Odin

Wolves chasing the sun and the moon 

Weirwoods, Yggdrasil and norse tradition of family trees

Frost giants and the Others

Any other suggestions?

Which topic would you pick as first?

I think those two could be combined as it gives fundamental knowledge of Norse mythology. People know Odin and Thor and some know Valkeryie but since Yggdrasil and weirwoods is the thing that everything 'branches' out from, then it would be best to start there. 

Norse travel and the migration of the Andals and customs of the Ironborn. 

[LmL]

3 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

One-eyed gods of ASOIAF and Odin

This one I will have covered quite thoroughly in my next episode or two, so please save the discussion of this for the thread after that episode (think it's going to be next)

 

3 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Weirwoods, Yggdrasil and norse tradition of family trees

going to do the whole Odin's horse / gallows tree explanation in my next couple two, but there are a lot of Yggdrasil ideas obviously, and I'll only be touching a few

 

3 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Wolves chasing the sun and the moon

One I have been meaning to follow up on, for obvious reasons- would love to hear your thoughts on this here. 

 

4 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Baldr and Hodr

Need to get to the bottom of those magic swords, and the idea of tree-swords or tree-weapons. I have a lot of ideas about tree weapons which I have not shared with many. 

 

5 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Arya Stark and Lady Hel

I have a lot of notes on Arya as various death goddesses, would love to talk more about this one

[LmL]

1 minute ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I think those two could be combined as it gives fundamental knowledge of Norse mythology. People know Odin and Thor and some know Valkeryie but since Yggdrasil and weirwoods is the thing that everything 'branches' out from, then it would be best to start there. 

Norse travel and the migration of the Andals and customs of the Ironborn. 

Yes, I second that motion, let's start with Yggdrasil. I know a fair bit about it but not nearly enough, and would love to learn more. It would open up to the nine worlds, and that is the basis of Norse cosmology is it not?

[Pain killer Jane]

4 minutes ago, LmL said:

So, moon tears - we have talking about the meteors as the bloody tears of the moon many times. All the bloody tears in the book, torn out eyes - you guys know the drill. Recall the scene where the Wall is weeping at sunset and Jon sees the rivers of black ice turning to red fire as the light plays on the meltwater in the cracks of the Wall - the Wall's tears. Black ice and red fire. So the idea of Amber being the tears of a goddess - pretty consistently - who has been drowned... and who might be a tree...  yeah, that might be an idea George is thinking of. 

And since amber is tree resin then we can't discount that the red 'sap' of the weirwood is actually resin.