The Long Night's Watch - the Undead Companions of the Last Hero

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

Garth's throne of living oak strongly suggests oak trees can be used by greenseers. I believe the weirwood is essentially occupying the Holly  tree / tree of the winter king role, with the oak playing the role of summer tree / summer tree. That's why I like that scene with the ranger giant making a castle out of the dead oak. Symbolically,  dead oak is akin to a winter tree, dead summer tree, etc. 

My understanding is that greenseers, the powerful, enthroned ones that get their fill of paste anyway, can tap into all living things. Don't we see some faces carved into non-weirwoods in early Dance? 

[Bluetiger]

6 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

My understanding is that greenseers, the powerful, enthroned ones that get their fill of paste anyway, can tap into all living things. Don't we see some faces carved into non-weirwoods in early Dance? 

Indeed.

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The Lord Steward led the way. Jon rode a few yards back, Dolorous Edd Tollett at his side. Half a mile south of Castle Black, Edd urged his garron close to Jon's and said, "M'lord? Look up there. The big drunkard on the hill."

The drunkard was an ash tree, twisted sideways by centuries of wind. And now it had a face. A solemn mouth, a broken branch for a nose, two eyes carved deep into the trunk, gazing north up the kingsroad, toward the castle and the Wall.

The wildlings brought their gods with them after all. Jon was not surprised. Men do not give up their gods so easily. The whole pageant that Lady Melisandre had orchestrated beyond the Wall suddenly seemed as empty as a mummer's farce. "Looks a bit like you, Edd," he said, trying to make light of it.

 

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Jon glanced back at the face, wondering who had carved it. He had posted guards around Mole's Town, both to keep his crows away from the wildling women and to keep the free folk from slipping off southward to raid. Whoever had carved up the ash had eluded his sentries, plainly. And if one man could slip through the cordon, others could as well. I could double the guard again, he thought sourly. Waste twice as many men, men who might otherwise be walking the Wall.

 

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The wagons continued on their slow way south through frozen mud and blowing snow. A mile farther on, they came upon a second face, carved into a chestnut tree that grew beside an icy stream, where its eyes could watch the old plank bridge that spanned its flow. "Twice as much trouble," announced Dolorous Edd.

 

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Just north of Mole's Town they came upon the third watcher, carved into the huge oak that marked the village perimeter, its deep eyes fixed upon the kingsroad. That is not a friendly face, Jon Snow reflected. The faces that the First Men and the children of the forest had carved into the weirwoods in eons past had stern or savage visages more oft than not, but the great oak looked especially angry, as if it were about to tear its roots from the earth and come roaring after them. Its wounds are as fresh as the wounds of the men who carved it.

There's also this bowl:

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"The trees will teach him," said Leaf. She beckoned, and another of the singers padded forward, the white-haired one that Meera had named Snowylocks. She had a weirwood bowl in her hands, carved with a dozen faces, like the ones the heart trees wore. Inside was a white paste, thick and heavy, with dark red veins running through it. "You must eat of this," said Leaf. She handed Bran a wooden spoon.

 

Hmmm.... this is my 2000th post on the forums... very special number for me.

[Isobel Harper]

3 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

The red keep's heart tree is an oak. Its where Ned takes the girls to pray and give thanks when they get the raven saying Bran woke up. 
The Harrenhal heart tree is also an oak. 

You sure?  I thought it was a weirwood.  There's a scene, if I recall correctly, where Arya visits it  at night and notes the red leaves turned black in the moonlight. 

[Pain killer Jane]

Just now, Isobel Harper said:

You sure?  I thought it was a weirwood.  There's a scene, if I recall correctly, where Arya visits it  at night and notes the red leaves turned black in the moonlight. 

The bole of an oak loomed before her, and she lunged to drive her point through it, grunting "Joffrey, Joffrey, Joffrey." Her arms and legs were dappled by sunlight and the shadows of leaves. A sheen of sweat covered her skin by the time she paused. The heel of her right foot was bloody where she'd skinned it, so she stood one-legged before the heart tree and raised her sword in salute. "Valar morghulis," she told the old gods of the north. She liked how the words sounded when she said them.

- Arya X, aCoK

 

[Pain killer Jane]

6 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

You sure?  I thought it was a weirwood.  There's a scene, if I recall correctly, where Arya visits it  at night and notes the red leaves turned black in the moonlight. 

You're right it is a weirwood. I forgot about that passage about it turning black. I thought the oak was the heart tree. 

[Bluetiger]

From TPaTQ:

No banners flew above the blackened towers and ruined keeps of Harrenhal when Prince Daemon descended from the sky to take up the castle for his own. A few squatters had found shelter in the castle’s deep vaults and undercellars, but the sound of Caraxes’s wings sent them fleeing. When the last of them was gone, Daemon Targaryen walked the cavernous halls of Harren’s seat alone, with no companion but his dragon. Each night at dusk he slashed the heart tree in the godswood to mark the passing of another day. Thirteen marks can be seen upon that weirwood still; old wounds, deep and dark, yet the lords who have ruled Harrenhal since Daemon’s day say they bleed afresh every spring.

[Pain killer Jane]

1 minute ago, Blue Tiger said:

From TPaTQ:

No banners flew above the blackened towers and ruined keeps of Harrenhal when Prince Daemon descended from the sky to take up the castle for his own. A few squatters had found shelter in the castle’s deep vaults and undercellars, but the sound of Caraxes’s wings sent them fleeing. When the last of them was gone, Daemon Targaryen walked the cavernous halls of Harren’s seat alone, with no companion but his dragon. Each night at dusk he slashed the heart tree in the godswood to mark the passing of another day. Thirteen marks can be seen upon that weirwood still; old wounds, deep and dark, yet the lords who have ruled Harrenhal since Daemon’s day say they bleed afresh every spring.

that black dragon making 13 marks on a tree that still bleed. 

[Bluetiger]

2 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

that black dragon making 13 marks on a tree that still bleed. 

That's also the same tree to which Lord Gargon was sacrificed:

After the Conqueror's death, it did not take long before challenges to the Targaryen rule emerged. The first of these was the bandit and outlaw named Harren the Red, who claimed to be a grandson of Harren the Black. With the help of a castle servant, Harren the Red seized both Harrenhal and its current ruler, the infamous Lord Gargon (remembered as Gargon the Guest for his custom of attending every wedding in his domain to exercise his right to First Night). Lord Gargon was gelded in the castle's godswood and left to bleed to death while Red Harren proclaimed himself Lord of Harrenhal and King of the Rivers.

All this took place while the king guested at Riverrun, the seat of the Tullys. But by the time Aenys and Lord Tully moved to deal with this threat, they found Harrenhal empty, Gargon's loyal men put to the sword, and Harren the Red and his followers returned to banditry.

[Pain killer Jane]

2 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

That's also the same tree to which Lord Gargon was sacrificed:

After the Conqueror's death, it did not take long before challenges to the Targaryen rule emerged. The first of these was the bandit and outlaw named Harren the Red, who claimed to be a grandson of Harren the Black. With the help of a castle servant, Harren the Red seized both Harrenhal and its current ruler, the infamous Lord Gargon (remembered as Gargon the Guest for his custom of attending every wedding in his domain to exercise his right to First Night). Lord Gargon was gelded in the castle's godswood and left to bleed to death while Red Harren proclaimed himself Lord of Harrenhal and King of the Rivers.

All this took place while the king guested at Riverrun, the seat of the Tullys. But by the time Aenys and Lord Tully moved to deal with this threat, they found Harrenhal empty, Gargon's loyal men put to the sword, and Harren the Red and his followers returned to banditry.

Gargon or (gorgon) was a Qoherys and therefore Valyrian but not termed blood of the dragon.So its interesting that he is presented as a fertility deity akin to Garth and then fed to the Heart tree like you pointed out.  

[Isobel Harper]

27 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

So I was reading the other day and I ran across this

And Joshua adjured them at that time, saying, Cursed be the man before the LORD, that riseth up and buildeth this city Jericho: he shall lay the foundation thereof in his firstborn, and in his youngest son shall he set up the gates of it.

- Joshua 6:26

Jericho's etymology either means 'fragrant' or 'moon'. And we have had younger sons taking possession of the Gates of the Moon; first the Blackfish and now the seat of Nestor Royce (whose name can't be a coincidence since Nestor the Argonaut, was the son of Chloris whose equivalent in Roman mythology was Flora.)  

ETA: And since we are talking about the Vale, if the first born was a giant, then it makes sense that the Eyrie's foundation figuratively in the Shadow of the Giant's Lance (since that is where Artys Arryn was born and raised) and literally has foundations in the Giant's Lance.  

ETA: Waynwood interests me since its etymology is wagon and we have the sigil of a broken wheel of a cart. But the wane homophone also alludes to this sigil as well since in woodworking the term wane means a round off edge that is missing wood. Wane is also used in reference to the moon when it starts turning from a full moon into a dark moon. Or is it wain the corruption of gwain meaning sheath or vagina. Are we missing something about the Waynwoods? 

Nice catch on the Wayn/wane wordplay.  If you think of the moon or the tide "waxing and waning" (and, yes, we have the "wax" present in the Vale too via House Waxley), it's circular, like a wheel.  The broken wheel represents a natural cycle bring broken, like the seasons on Planetos! 

The idea of "wane" in Waynwood representing the moon or the tide brings to mind "moon tree" (weirwood) or "tide wood" (driftwood).

[Isobel Harper]

24 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

That's also the same tree to which Lord Gargon was sacrificed:

After the Conqueror's death, it did not take long before challenges to the Targaryen rule emerged. The first of these was the bandit and outlaw named Harren the Red, who claimed to be a grandson of Harren the Black. With the help of a castle servant, Harren the Red seized both Harrenhal and its current ruler, the infamous Lord Gargon (remembered as Gargon the Guest for his custom of attending every wedding in his domain to exercise his right to First Night). Lord Gargon was gelded in the castle's godswood and left to bleed to death while Red Harren proclaimed himself Lord of Harrenhal and King of the Rivers.

All this took place while the king guested at Riverrun, the seat of the Tullys. But by the time Aenys and Lord Tully moved to deal with this threat, they found Harrenhal empty, Gargon's loyal men put to the sword, and Harren the Red and his followers returned to banditry.

 

17 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Gargon or (gorgon) was a Qoherys and therefore Valyrian but not termed blood of the dragon.So its interesting that he is presented as a fertility deity akin to Garth and then fed to the Heart tree like you pointed out.  

LmL and I had an interesting discussion concerning Qoherys and the Harrenhal "sacrifice."  I'll have to look up the quotes, but more or less, I think the Curse of Harrenhal stems from him and that he's an ancestor of the Starks via Lothston and Whent. 

[LmL]

26 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Nice catch on the Wayn/wane wordplay.  If you think of the moon or the tide "waxing and waning" (and, yes, we have the "wax" present in the Vale too via House Waxley), it's circular, like a wheel.  The broken wheel represents a natural cycle bring broken, like the seasons on Planetos! 

The idea of "wane" in Waynwood representing the moon or the tide brings to mind "moon tree" (weirwood) or "tide wood" (driftwood).

Yes, I think this makes the most sense - the Broken Wheel represents the broken cycle of the seasons. When the moon turned into a black hole, it was the ultimate waning of the Moon you might say. The idea that we have a house waxley as well encourages us to think about waxing and waning in regards to the Moon, since the Moon is a prime symbol of the Vale.

There's a metaphor about waynewood in the text having to do with somebody who has quartered there sigil with the broken wheel.. Is it Harry The Heir by chance?

[Bluetiger]

From WOW sample chapter:

"Is that a promise or a threat?" Myranda said. "The first Lady Waynwood must have been a mare, I think. How else to explain why all the Waynwood men are horse-faced? If I were ever to wed a Waynwood, he would have to swear a vow to don his helm whenever he wished to fuck me, and keep the visor closed." She gave Alayne a pinch on the arm. "My Harry will be with them, though. I notice that you left him out. I shall never forgive you for stealing him away from me. He's the boy I want to marry."

Mare of course evokes the pale mare and Dany's Silver - so it'd seemingly be a moon symbol (however, it's worth to mention that Dany continues to ride her after her transformation into solar figure.

From Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_horse_(mythology)

White horses have a special significance in the mythologies of cultures around the world. They are often associated with the sun chariot, with warrior-heroes, with fertility (in both mare and stallion manifestations), or with an end-of-time saviour, but other interpretations exist as well. Both truly white horses and the more common grey horses, with completely white hair coats, were identified as "white" by various religious and cultural traditions.

In Celtic mythology, Rhiannon, a mythic figure in the Mabinogion collection of legends, rides a "pale-white" horse. Because of this, she has been linked to the Romano-Celtic fertility horse goddess Epona and other instances of the veneration of horses in early Indo-European culture.

In Greek mythology, the white winged horse Pegasus was the son of Poseidon and the gorgon Medusa. Poseidon was also the creator of horses, creating them out of the breaking waves when challenged to make a beautiful land animal.

 

In Norse mythology, Odin's eight-legged horse Sleipnir, "the best horse among gods and men", is described as grey. Sleipnir is also the ancestor of another grey horse, Grani, who is owned by the hero Sigurd.

Slavic

In Slavic mythology, the war and fertility deity Svantovit owned an oracular white horse; the historian Saxo Grammaticus, in descriptions similar to those of Tacitus centuries before, says the priests divined the future by leading the white stallion between a series of fences and watching which leg, right or left, stepped first in each row.

Finno-Ugric

One of the titles of God in Hungarian mythology was Hadúr, who, according to an unconfirmed source, wears pure copper and is a metalsmith. The Hungarian name for God was, and remains "Isten" and they followed Steppe Tengriism.[citation needed] The ancient Magyars sacrificed white stallions to him before a battle.  Additionally, there is a story (mentioned for example in Gesta Hungarorum) that the Magyars paid a white horse to Moravian chieftain Svatopluk I (in other forms of the story, it is instead the Bulgarian chieftain Salan) for a part of the land that later became the Kingdom of Hungary.[citation needed] Actual historical background of the story is dubious because Svatopluk I was already dead when the first Hungarian tribes arrived. On the other hand, even Herodotus mentions in his Histories an Eastern custom, where sending a white horse as payment in exchange for land means casus belli. This custom roots in the ancient Eastern belief that stolen land would lose its fertility.

Iranian

In Zoroastrianism, one of the three representations of Tishtrya, the hypostasis of the star Sirius, is that of a white stallion (the other two are as a young man, and as a bull). The divinity takes this form during the last 10 days of every month of the Zoroastrian calendar, and also in a cosmogonical battle for control of rain. In this latter tale (Yasht 8.21–29), which appears in the Avesta's hymns dedicated to Tishtrya, the divinity is opposed by Apaosha, the demon of drought, which appears as a black stallion.

White horses are also said to draw divine chariots, such as that of Aredvi Sura Anahita, who is the Avesta's divinity of the waters. Representing various forms of water, her four horses are named "wind", "rain", "clouds" and "sleet" (Yasht 5.120).

Hindu

White horses appear many times in Hindu mythology. The Vedic horse sacrifice or Ashvamedha was a fertility and kingship ritual involving the sacrifice of a sacred grey or white stallion. Similar rituals may have taken place among Roman, Celtic and Norse people, but the descriptions are not so complete.

+ in Apocalypse one of the Four Horsemen rides a pale white horse.

[Pain killer Jane]

Spoiler

5 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

"Is that a promise or a threat?" Myranda said. "The first Lady Waynwood must have been a mare, I think. How else to explain why all the Waynwood men are horse-faced? If I were ever to wed a Waynwood, he would have to swear a vow to don his helm whenever he wished to fuck me, and keep the visor closed." She gave Alayne a pinch on the arm. "My Harry will be with them, though. I notice that you left him out. I shall never forgive you for stealing him away from me. He's the boy I want to marry."

 

Mare of course evokes the pale mare and Dany's Silver - so it'd seemingly be a moon symbol (however, it's worth to mention that Dany continues to ride her after her transformation into solar figure.

We can not forget that if the Waynwood family is horse face then it would be a result of that Stark blood they got from the Royce/Stark daughter because Jocelyn was a sister of Edwyle and we know that Arya's nickname is Horse Face and she is said to resemble Ned. 

@Blue Tiger

[Pain killer Jane]

6 hours ago, LmL said:

There's a metaphor about waynewood in the text having to do with somebody who has quartered there sigil with the broken wheel.. Is it Harry The Heir by chance?

Are you referring to Sweetsunray's examination of Loras's tourney blanket on his horse? 

[Isobel Harper]

6 hours ago, LmL said:

Yes, I think this makes the most sense - the Broken Wheel represents the broken cycle of the seasons. When the moon turned into a black hole, it was the ultimate waning of the Moon you might say. The idea that we have a house waxley as well encourages us to think about waxing and waning in regards to the Moon, since the Moon is a prime symbol of the Vale.

There's a metaphor about waynewood in the text having to do with somebody who has quartered there sigil with the broken wheel.. Is it Harry The Heir by chance?

Harry the Heir's personal arms represent House Waynwood and House Hardyng on one half and Arryn entirely on the other half.  Not technically quartered, but yeah.

[Isobel Harper]

6 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

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LmL and I had an interesting discussion concerning Qoherys and the Harrenhal "sacrifice."  I'll have to look up the quotes, but more or less, I think the Curse of Harrenhal stems from him and that he's an ancestor of the Starks via Lothston and Whent. 

Knew it was on one of the Long Night threads. 

 

[Pain killer Jane]

8 hours ago, LmL said:

Yes, I think this makes the most sense - the Broken Wheel represents the broken cycle of the seasons. When the moon turned into a black hole, it was the ultimate waning of the Moon you might say. The idea that we have a house waxley as well encourages us to think about waxing and waning in regards to the Moon, since the Moon is a prime symbol of the Vale.

What do you make of Lord Waxley giving Lysa scented beeswax candles? For some reason because of their sigil, I hear "Jack be nimble. Jack be quick. Jack jumped over the candle stick."

And there is another House with wayn in it. House Wayn in the Riverlands. Utherydes Wayn is the steward for Riverrun. The first part of his has to be in reference to Uther Pendragon. What do you think of his sigil in conjunction with his role as a steward. 

[LmL]

31 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

What do you make of Lord Waxley giving Lysa scented beeswax candles? For some reason because of their sigil, I hear "Jack be nimble. Jack be quick. Jack jumped over the candle stick."

And there is another House with wayn in it. House Wayn in the Riverlands. Utherydes Wayn is the steward for Riverrun. The first part of his has to be in reference to Uther Pendragon. What do you think of his sigil in conjunction with his role as a steward. 

Other-rides-wayn. In another Martin story the Ice Dragon constellation is called the Ice Wagon, and it carries souls to the afterlife. Same deal with the blue star that is the eye of the rider - that hasn't changed. So House Wayn's sigil is four wagon wheels, white on blue and blue on white countercharged - that's ice wagon symbolism. And dude's name is "Otherides Wayn" - Other rides wayn.

A steward is something of a custodian, kind of like the ferryman perhaps. Riverrun is an interesting place in terms of symbolism, and one we haven't talked about much on my threads actually. It's got an ice / fire thing going on and obvious a ton of water symbolism... it's described as an island of fire though when Thoros sees a vision of the Lannisters attacking it, which makes it akin to the Isle of Faces and the fire moon. 

[LmL]

3 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Harry the Heir's personal arms represent House Waynwood and House Hardyng on one half and Arryn entirely on the other half.  Not technically quartered, but yeah.

As for Waynwood, something just jumped out at me when looking at their sigil - it has eight spokes, one of which is broken. That could be 8 wanderers turning to seven symbolism.  The breaking of the eighth wanderer, the moon, was the cause of the breaking of the cycle of the seasons, so it works well. And black on green is green dragon symbolism, or at least, that is what I have found when green and black appear together.  Usually it is a green thing embedded in black, but here it is the opposite. They are from Ironoaks, which makes me think they have Ironwood trees there, and thus black wood, and hence their black wagon wheel. That aligns them with the "Black Wood" line of symbolism which I have not entirely finished sussing out yet.

As for Harry, I am not sure what his symbolism means. It's too much - wagon wheel, red and white diamonds, Arryn moon and falcon.  It means everything. I dunno.