The Amber Compendium of Norse Myth: Chapter I, Yggdrasil

[Pain killer Jane]

2 hours ago, LmL said:

Same with sword and word - are there any examples of words being swords? I can't think of any...

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Joffrey slashed at Arya with his sword, screaming obscenities, terrible words, filthy words.

- Sansa I, aGot

He is attacking Arya with both words and sword.

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"If we send you, Tyrion, it will be as if Joffrey went himself. And who better? You wield words as skillfully as Jaime wields a sword."

-Tyrion VIII, aCoK

 

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Mance had spent years assembling this vast plodding host, talking to this clan mother and that magnar, winning one village with sweet words and another with a song and a third with the edge of his sword,

-Jon II, aSoS

This one is interesting because Tywin used the song "The Rains of Castamere" to strike fear. And we need to remember Arya saying her words "Fear cuts deeper than swords." 

 

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You sound like a sulky boy, Robb," Catelyn said sharply. "A child sees an obstacle, and his first thought is to run around it or knock it down. A lord must learn that sometimes words can accomplish what swords cannot."

-Catelyn IX, aGoT

 

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He wants the head that spoke the words, not just the hand that swung the sword.

-Tyrion IX, aSoS

After all the words and the sword killed Oberyn's sister.

 

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The wench's mouth got stubborn. "I will not believe that gentle girl a poisoner. Lady Catelyn said that she had a loving heart. It was your brother. There was a trial, Ser Loras said."

"Two trials, actually. Words and swords both failed him. A bloody mess. Did you watch from your window?"

-Jaime IX, aSoS

 

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Bran asked Septon Chayle about the comet while they were sorting through some scrolls snatched from the library fire. "It is the sword that slays the season," he replied, and soon after the white raven came from Oldtown bringing word of autumn, so doubtless he was right.

The word Angel means messenger/herald in Greek.  The comet is both the messenger and the sword. You made the connection that a murder of ravens were comets and comets are swords than a white raven bringing word of autumn could also be the sword. This is why we have Berric, the lighting lord descended from a messenger becoming a scarecrow knight/greenseer parallel. Lucifer trying to become God and actually succeeding.

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He swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own. Then he opened that king's throat with a sword."

-Eddard II, aGoT

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The words of his oath rang through his head. I am the sword in the darkness.

-Jon XI, aDwD

And a knight can be a sworn sword. 
 

Eta:

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A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." He thrust his longsword through her son's heart, and twisted.

-Catelyn VII, aSoS

 

But we do have these. 

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King Stannis said, "Lord Snow, tell me of Mors Umber."

The Night's Watch takes no part, Jon thought, but another voice within him said, Words are not swords. "The elder of the Greatjon's uncles. Crowfood, they call him. A crow once took him for dead and pecked out his eye. He caught the bird in his fist and bit its head off. When Mors was young he was a fearsome fighter. His sons died on the Trident, his wife in childbed. His only daughter was carried off by wildlings thirty years ago."

"That's why he wants the head," said Harwood Fell.

..........

Stannis gave him a sour look. "Not for me, ser. I want no widows wailing in my wake. The women will remain here, with the old, the wounded, and the children. They will serve as hostages for the loyalty of their husbands and fathers. The wildling men will form my van. The Magnar will command them, with their own chiefs as serjeants. First, though, we must needs arm them."

He means to plunder our armory, Jon realized. Food and clothing, land and castles, now weapons. He draws me in deeper every day. Words might not be swords, but swords were swords. "I could find three hundred spears," he said, reluctantly. "Helms as well, if you'll take them old and dinted and red with rust."

"Armor?" asked the Magnar. "Plate? Mail?"

-Jon IV, aDwD

But the thing here is that Jon is trying to solve the issue at the Wall with Stannis, the Watch, and the Wildlings with words. 

ETA: Yendel calls maesters Knight's of the Mind and their swords would then be words. 

[Pain killer Jane]

1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

Indeed...

In terms of symbolism, some sacrifice around the time of Robert's Rebellion brought about the Long Summer... But which death it was? White Bull's? Aerys' ? Arthur's? Rhaegar's? Lyannna's? Brandon's? Rickard's? Ashara's? 

 

You're forgetting Lewyn (The Joy?) as he would be a white sun like Lord Rickard Karstark and his death started the downward spiral of Robb's War. And Alys Karstark's wedding to Sigorn made their house into a new sun echoing Nymeria's original sigil of a Sun before she married Mors Martell. 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

Indeed...

In terms of symbolism, some sacrifice around the time of Robert's Rebellion brought about the Long Summer... But which death it was? White Bull's? Aerys' ? Arthur's? Rhaegar's? Lyannna's? Brandon's? Rickard's? Ashara's? 

 

I assume we are speaking more in terms of symbolism - I don't think you're proposing that the seasons only turn when the right people are sacrificed. That would be a heck of a theory though - the reason seasons are irregular is that they are dependent on sacrifice, but nobody knows this and we are all stumbling around in the dark until the right person is killed, ha ha.

But anyway, in terms of symbolism, the god that dies should be some type of winter king, or at least the A Song of Ice and Fire Version of the winter King. I think that in general, the darker aspects of the horned God folklore, meaning the Lucifer / baphomet type of thing (black goat, black dragon, black devil boar, etc) are aligned with the winter king in ASOIAF. So, killing the dragons (Targaryens) might have done it.

Stepping outside of the confines of the summer and winter King, the myth of a storm storm God killing a dragon or sea serpent to bring about the changing of the world age is very common in mythology descended from PIE cultures. I talked about that in my sea dragon and great king episode. It's similar to the idea of sacrificing a God to turn the seasons, just on a much bigger scale because we're turning the world age. Of course slaying the dragon always leads to a huge flood and or Firestorm, cataclysm, Etc.

[LmL]

47 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

He is attacking Arya with both words and sword.

 

This one is interesting because Tywin used the song "The Rains of Castamere" to strike fear. And we need to remember Arya saying her words "Fear cuts deeper than swords." 

 

 

After all the words and the sword killed Oberyn's sister.

 

 

The word Angel means messenger/herald in Greek.  The comet is both the messenger and the sword. You made the connection that a murder of ravens were comets and comets are swords than a white raven bringing word of autumn could also be the sword. This is why we have Berric, the lighting lord descended from a messenger becoming a scarecrow knight/greenseer parallel. Lucifer trying to become God and actually succeeding.

And a knight can be a sworn sword. 
 

Eta:

 

But we do have these. 

But the thing here is that Jon is trying to solve the issue at the Wall with Stannis, the Watch, and the Wildlings with words. 

ETA: Yendel calls maesters Knight's of the Mind and their swords would then be words. 

OK, so now I am well satisfied. That's all I ask, that we prove our clever ideas with text- or better yet, draw our ideas directly from the text. When Martin is doing something clever, he always leaves us multiple examples (such as the many examples you cited above) to find. That's why I don't feel like we ever need to really be in doubt about much of anything, in terms of is Martin referring to this external idea or not - all we have to do is look. This is definitely a very clear association between words and swords, I'm surprised I missed it. It's quite prevalent in retrospect. I suppose the title Sworn Sword probably should have been a clue, LOL.

[Pain killer Jane]

17 minutes ago, LmL said:

But anyway, in terms of symbolism, the god that dies should be some type of winter king, or at least the A Song of Ice and Fire Version of the winter King. I think that in general, the darker aspects of the horned God folklore, meaning the Lucifer / baphomet type of thing (black goat, black dragon, black devil boar, etc) are aligned with the winter king in ASOIAF. So, killing the dragons (Targaryens) might have done it.

 

48 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

You're forgetting Lewyn (The Joy?) as he would be a white sun like Lord Rickard Karstark and his death started the downward spiral of Robb's War. And Alys Karstark's wedding to Sigorn made their house into a new sun echoing Nymeria's original sigil of a Sun before she married Mors Martell. 

 

[LmL]

This Thread has wandered pretty far away from Yggy pretty quickly - we may want to steer it back in the right direction if we want this project to go as planned. But while we're talking about white sons and white stars, I think that the difference between a sun and a star is important to remember. There really isn't any such thing as a white sun - our son always looks yellow, and it's never labeled as white in the story. We do have white stars however, just not our son. There's quite a lot about white stars in the story, and indeed the Karstarks are referred to as white star wolves. Their sigil is technically called a white sunburst, and I think that's the key - a white dwarf is a dying star. The idea of a Sunburst also implies a bursting star, a dying star. It's notable that the Sunburst is on a field of black - again that implies a star in space, not the Sun in the sky. It could also refer to a son that is underground, in the cave of night, as we have discussed. I think what all this leads to Kama including the execution of Lord Rickard, is there a white star represents a dying star, a sun that is to be sacrificed. It's like the fertility God as an old man, the one who's time is up and who needs to die so that the next one can take its place. And that's probably why we see Sigorn replace the white starburst on black with a more typical golden fiery sun on white. That seems like the old son giving way to the new Sun. And to learn further about this idea, what we need to look at is Mesoamerican myth, because they are the ones who have all the mythology about Suns dying and being replaced by new Suns. 

Now, what does this have to do with the others? Are they like the dying Suns that were supposed to give way but did not want to? There could be a double meaning when Gilly's mother says " they'll be here soon. The sons."

[LmL]

And returning to the Tower of Joy scene, it's easy to see that Arthur Dayne can identify with white stars, if not Suns. The dawn meteorite is a white star - not a son, but a white star and a white dragon. So in the capacity that he is a son figure, he would be a son of winter figure, a dying white star. And so once again I return to my analysis that both sides are winter sides at the tower of joy. This is a recreation of the flight that went down during the winter, and I do not think it is a summer king / Winter King thing. I mean, there's plenty of that in the story already, not every scene has to be that.

Also, I'm just remembering that there is a scene at the Eyrie while it is snowed under where the sunlight coming through the windows in the white marble Hall - white marble veined with blue that is - the sunlight is described as cold. It seems like the ice Moon can be seen as some sort of cold Sun. I mean I guess that's the same thing as calling it a cold star, from a certain perspective. 

[Pain killer Jane]

2 hours ago, LmL said:

OK, so now I am well satisfied. That's all I ask, that we prove our clever ideas with text- or better yet, draw our ideas directly from the text. When Martin is doing something clever, he always leaves us multiple examples (such as the many examples you cited above) to find. That's why I don't feel like we ever need to really be in doubt about much of anything, in terms of is Martin referring to this external idea or not - all we have to do is look. This is definitely a very clear association between words and swords, I'm surprised I missed it. It's quite prevalent in retrospect. I suppose the title Sworn Sword probably should have been a clue, LOL.

One more thing I wanted to add was Stannis accomplished the deaths of Joffrey, Renly and Robb through words. He gave their names and names have powers. Renly's death was the only direct action due to Mel's shadow binding but the other two can be R'hllor working in mysterious ways. And if Jon after his resurrection finds out about the rituals Stannis performed to have his brother and knowing the power of words (Thoros recounting his resurrection of Berric by saying I spoke the words and I poured the fire of life into him or something like) I would imagine that Wolf-Jon would be like Oberyn and want the head of the one that spoke the words and the ones that wielded the swords. 

And yes you are right to demand evidence. I am lazy and somewhat fanciful when it comes to my analyzation of somethings. That and my faulty memory. I mean I didn't even remember I said that about wells. 

And wishing wells being akin to hanging trees (the sacrificial display version) and wishing trees can be seen via Cersei throwing Melara Heatherspoon (a freckled horse girl, with her oak spoon sigil) down the well and thus enacting the self fulfilling prophecy. And Cersei killing Melara was because Melara wanted to marry Jaime. And Cersei did this because of words and blood magic.

[Pain killer Jane]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

This Thread has wandered pretty far away from Yggy pretty quickly - we may want to steer it back in the right direction if we want this project to go as planned. But while we're talking about white sons and white stars, I think that the difference between a sun and a star is important to remember. There really isn't any such thing as a white sun - our son always looks yellow, and it's never labeled as white in the story. We do have white stars however, just not our son. There's quite a lot about white stars in the story, and indeed the Karstarks are referred to as white star wolves. Their sigil is technically called a white sunburst, and I think that's the key - a white dwarf is a dying star. The idea of a Sunburst also implies a bursting star, a dying star. It's notable that the Sunburst is on a field of black - again that implies a star in space, not the Sun in the sky. It could also refer to a son that is underground, in the cave of night, as we have discussed. I think what all this leads to Kama including the execution of Lord Rickard, is there a white star represents a dying star, a sun that is to be sacrificed. It's like the fertility God as an old man, the one who's time is up and who needs to die so that the next one can take its place. And that's probably why we see Sigorn replace the white starburst on black with a more typical golden fiery sun on white. That seems like the old son giving way to the new Sun. And to learn further about this idea, what we need to look at is Mesoamerican myth, because they are the ones who have all the mythology about Suns dying and being replaced by new Suns. 

Now, what does this have to do with the others? Are they like the dying Suns that were supposed to give way but did not want to? There could be a double meaning when Gilly's mother says " they'll be here soon. The sons."

Ok. But what about the if we took the Martell sigil as it is now with the spear piercing the sun's back (I think Tyrion or Bronn describes it like that), wouldn't that constitute a star burst? In this case, it would be a healthy star not a dying one. That could have thrown the wheel out of wack.

and yes I agree about looking at Mesoamerican and Native American mythology as well. I found a mourning star deity name Red Horn, nicknamed he of many ears or something like that. 

[LmL]

3 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Ok. But what about the if we took the Martell sigil as it is now with the spear piercing the sun's back (I think Tyrion or Bronn describes it like that), wouldn't that constitute a star burst? In this case, it would be a healthy star not a dying one. That could have thrown the wheel out of wack.

and yes I agree about looking at Mesoamerican and Native American mythology as well. I found a mourning star deity name Red Horn, nicknamed he of many ears or something like that. 

That's the damnable thing about mythology, and the biggest pitfall of comparative mythology - there are so many ideas that are similar all over the place, and some of them are due to sharing a mutual origin, and some of them are independent invention. And you can't always tell at first glance which is which, and just because two people are relatively close to each other in proximity does not mean they're myths are derivative - although it usually does. Critics of comparative mythology are quick to jump on any false or flimsy associations, so comparative mythologist have to be very careful if they don't want to be labeled a crackpot or quack. We have that same problem here as we danced around in the Hall of Mirrors that is George RR Martin's symbolism. It's so easy to associate things with one another, and it's so easy to see external influences in the story. That's why I keep beating the drum about looking in the text for specific references to things, because by now we have found enough examples of how he does this to know what to look for. But look at us groping around in the dark regarding white stars and white dragons trying to figure out what exactly it all means... Color symbolism especially can be vexing, which is why I always avoid it until the end. Meaning, I try not to base ideas on color symbolism, but rather trace out the symbolic motifs and then try to see how the colors fit into those ideas. 

One of the techniques that I use to safeguard against projecting patterns onto scenes is that I don't really make something of a scene unless it has multiple symbols which work together in a coherent fashion, and if the message of those symbols can be corroborated elsewhere. For example, if we look at the words and swords wordplay, I'm sure that we can compare all those scenes and find that there are other symbols that they all have in common, and if we can correctly interpret what Martin is saying, the message from all of the scenes should make sense when taken together. 

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm stating the obvious.

[LmL]

Ok, so, Yggdrasil.

Bloodraven is the dragon in the roots.

The squirrel is the cotf, the squirrel people.

There are those 4 stags, I got that covered with green men. 

So...  what's up with the eagle?  Anyone have any ideas about what, if anything, that correlates to in ASOIAF? @Blue Tiger

[LmL]

4 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Ok. But what about the if we took the Martell sigil as it is now with the spear piercing the sun's back (I think Tyrion or Bronn describes it like that), wouldn't that constitute a star burst? In this case, it would be a healthy star not a dying one. That could have thrown the wheel out of wack.

The other weird thing about this is that what really happened is that the sun - Nymeria's Rhoynar - landed on Sunspear. Sunspear never moved, but the sun people landed on it. So it's more like the sun falling from heaven and being impaled, and of course that matches with meteors that drink the fire of the sun and then fall on the arm of Dorne.  Those meteors can be seen as sunspears, also, a combination of both sigils. 

[Bluetiger]

21 minutes ago, LmL said:

Ok, so, Yggdrasil.

Bloodraven is the dragon in the roots.

The squirrel is the cotf, the squirrel people.

There are those 4 stags, I got that covered with green men. 

So...  what's up with the eagle?  Anyone have any ideas about what, if anything, that correlates to in ASOIAF? @Blue Tiger

From Prose Edda:

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There is much to be told. An eagle sits at the top of the ash, and it has knowledge of many things. Between its eyes sits the hawk called Vedrfolnir [...]. The squirrel called Ratatosk runs up and down the ash. He tells slanderous gossip, provoking the eagle and Nidhogg.'

The eagle is usually viewed as sky deity, the representant of heavens, while the wyrm is connected to earth... But in ASOIAF the 'wyrm' (dragon) is actually flying creature and it seems that birds like hawk, eagle and falcon = dragons, when it comes to symbolism (Jon Arryn's sword, Rhaenyra's sigil).

So maybe GRRM dropped this myth as it didn't fit his metaphors.

Or, we could try to find some kind of connection between Robert's Rebellion and COTF (the malicious squirrel) - Arryns fought the Targaryens there.

Maybe Jon Arryn's weirwood throne (with COTF inside?) is important here? Maybe the children used it to ensure that he'll fight against the dragons... But that's just pure speculation...

Or, the squirrel is Littlefinger, who manipulated Lysa (the hawk?) in order to manipulate Jon Arryn (the eagle?)...

If Varys was working against Targaryens, he might be the squirrel - Aerys would be the dragon/wyrm and Arryns would be the eagle - we don't know who gave Aerys the brilliant advice to order killing of Ned & Robert.

[Bluetiger]

Since we've been talking about Winterfell's godswood & black pool in 'Long Night's Watch' thread and about whitewashing Yggdrasil here, maybe there is some connection between them?

 

[LmL]

14 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

From Prose Edda:

The eagle is usually viewed as sky deity, the representant of heavens, while the wyrm is connected to earth... But in ASOIAF the 'wyrm' (dragon) is actually flying creature and it seems that birds like hawk, eagle and falcon = dragons, when it comes to symbolism (Jon Arryn's sword, Rhaenyra's sigil).

So maybe GRRM dropped this myth as it didn't fit his metaphors.

Or, we could try to find some kind of connection between Robert's Rebellion and COTF (the malicious squirrel) - Arryns fought the Targaryens there.

Maybe Jon Arryn's weirwood throne (with COTF inside?) is important here? Maybe the children used it to ensure that he'll fight against the dragons... But that's just pure speculation...

Or, the squirrel is Littlefinger, who manipulated Lysa (the hawk?) in order to manipulate Jon Arryn (the eagle?)...

If Varys was working against Targaryens, he might be the squirrel - Aerys would be the dragon/wyrm and Arryns would be the eagle - we don't know who gave Aerys the brilliant advice to order killing of Ned & Robert.

I think the idea of the squirrel bearing gossip was simply dropped. The cotf are the squirrels, and the only way they could be bearing enmity is if they were deceiving mankind in some horrible way. Unless you buy that line of thinking, I think Martin just dropped it. You're right Petyr is more like that person, but he's not a squirrel. 

I am more curious about the eagle. It's a sky deity, like Horus, and has a third eye that is a hawk.  It's liekly the only correlation to the hawk is basically mythical astronomy - the comet, the moon meteors, etc. 

4 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Since we've been talking about Winterfell's godswood & black pool in 'Long Night's Watch' thread and about whitewashing Yggdrasil here, maybe there is some connection between them?

 

Be more specific... connection between what exactly? 

By the way, I saw a video on Facebook today of a raven bathing in the snow, which apparently is a thing they do.

[LmL]

I mean, we could be overlooking the obvious - the ravens could be the eagle. We have a three eyed raven as an avatar of Bloodraven, so... there's your three eyed eagle. 

[Bluetiger]

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The World of Ice and Fire, Highgarden:

The gods, both old and new, are well served in Highgarden. The splendor of the castle sept, with its rows of stained-glass windows celebrating the Seven and the ubiquitous Garth Greenhand, is rivaled only by that of the Great Sept of Baelor in King's Landing and the Starry Sept of Oldtown. And Highgarden's lush green godswood is almost as renowned, for in the place of a single heart tree it boasts three towering, graceful, ancient weirwoods whose limbs have grown so entangled over the centuries that they appear to be almost a single tree with three trunks, reaching for each other above a tranquil pool. Legend has it these trees, known in the Reach as the Three Singers, were planted by Garth Greenhand himself.

No seat in the Seven Kingdoms has been more celebrated in song than Highgarden, and small wonder, for the Tyrells and the Gardeners before them have made their court a place of culture and music and high art. In the days before the Conquest, the Kings of the Reach and their queens presided over tourneys of love and beauty, where the greatest knights of the Reach competed for the love of the fairest maids not only with feats of arms, but with song, poetry, and demonstrations of virtue, piety, and chaste devotion. The greatest champions, men as pure and honorable and virtuous as they were skilled at arms, were honored with invitations to join the Order of the Green Hand.

 

Here the Norns and Yggdrasil are combined - three weirwood singers (sisters) stand above tranquil (white?) pool... In fact, Norns are called 'Wyrd' or 'Weird' Sisters, so GRRM probably got the idea to combine them.

[Bluetiger]

6 minutes ago, LmL said:

Be more specific... connection between what exactly? 

By the way, I saw a video on Facebook today of a raven bathing in the snow, which apparently is a thing they do.

Yggdrasil stands above the Well of Urd, while Winterfell's Weirwood stands above the black pool... We should be able to connect them easily, but there's one problem - Urd is white, but that pool is black and cold.

[LmL]

Just now, Blue Tiger said:

Here the Norns and Yggdrasil are combined - three weirwood singers (sisters) stand above tranquil (white?) pool... In fact, Norns are called 'Wyrd' or 'Weird' Sisters, so GRRM probably got the idea to combine them.

Good call, that seems right to me. 

Oh, by the way, do you think George Martin might be a fan of Dune?  The hero draws his name from the shadow on the second moon, and the "weirding way" is a method of using sound to destroy things like stone and people's bodies. The idea of using a magical horn to break a wall or singing to cause an earthquake, a scream that cracks the moon - these are all the weirding way.  If Martin likes Dune then this would be an irresistible tie-in given the things I just pointed out.  The water of life is just another version of the fire of the gods potion, a universal mytheme which the weirwood paste shares in, but the water of life is specifically similar because it produces astral travel and the rapid gaining of knowledge. The main character has a younger sister who is also a killer, her name is Alia. Alia, Arya, mmm... perhaps. 

[LmL]

1 minute ago, Blue Tiger said:

Yggdrasil stands above the Well of Urd, while Winterfell's Weirwood stands above the black pool... We should be able to connect them easily, but there's one problem - Urd is white, but that pool is black and cold.

What about Mimir's?