The Amber Compendium of Norse Myth: Chapter I, Yggdrasil

[Pain killer Jane]

1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

House Fenn - crannogmen of the Neck, Wylla Fenn was mother of Lonell Snow, sigil: Three black water lilies on pale violet

House Vypren in the Riverlands with their black white illy pad and black toad. Definitely pointing at the toad being poisonous because the house name is derived from viper. And that member that seems like a parallel to the mummer's version of Asha. 

And the Wylla is related to Wylla of Wyl in Dorne. House Wyl of the Boneway and their sigil is a green black snake biting an ankle (Achilles?) Kind of reminds me of the Don't Thread on Me Flag of American Revolution 

ETA: Or House Wylde of Rain House in the Stormlands. The storm in their sigil can stylistically look like a rose. And their is the association between storm and roses in Ned's dream. 

[Bluetiger]

By the way, I've ordered English 'Game of Thrones' and it should arrive next Wednesday... Anyone would be interested in a re-read focused on Norse Mythology (and Mythical Astronomy?), to try to find more clues, references and see how GRRM uses all those myths in his tapestry of words?

@ravenous reader, you're fond of anagrams... And your nickname's is 'Ravenous Re-read'

 

Also... It's annoying how many mistakes Polish GOT has, some are really stupid:

In Prologue:

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Ser Waymar Royce was the youngest son of an ancient house with too many heirs. He was a handsome youth of eighteen, grey-eyed and graceful and slender as a knife. Mounted on his huge black destrier, the knight towered above Will and Gared on their smaller garrons. He wore black leather boots, black woolen pants, black moleskin gloves, and a fine supple coat of gleaming black ringmail over layers of black wool and boiled leather. Ser Waymar had been a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch for less than half a year, but no one could say he had not prepared for his vocation. At least insofar as his wardrobe was concerned.

Became:

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Ser Waymar Royce był najmłodszym synem starego rodu posiadającego zbyt wielu przodków. Był przystojnym, osiemnastoletnim mężczyzną o szarych oczach i niezwykle szczupłej sylwetce. Rycerz patrzył z góry ze swojego czarnego rumaka na Willa i Gareda, którzy jechali na drobniejszych koniach. Ubrany był w czarne skórzane buty, czarne wełniane spodnie, czarne rękawice z kreciej skóry i wspaniałe okrycie, które stanowiła czarna lśniąca kolczuga nałożona na warstwy czarnej wełny i garbowanej skóry. Ser Waymar służył w Nocnej Straży od niespełna pół roku, lecz nie można było powiedzieć, że nie przygotował się do swego zajęcia. Przynajmniej jeśli chodzi o stroje.

'Too many heirs' became 'too many ancestors'...

And 'ancient house' became simply 'old house'...

 

[LmL]

13 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

We have a very significant hedge knight that was a gallow's knight, Ser Duncan.

Yes, a barrel of symbolism, that one. He's also got the falling green star (dragon) and the elm tree. He also drinks from the winged chalice of immortality, which is how he survived the hangman thing

[Pain killer Jane]

1 minute ago, LmL said:

Yes, a barrel of symbolism, that one. He's also got the falling green star (dragon) and the elm tree. He also drinks from the winged chalice of immortality, which is how he survived the hangman thing

Hmm....I wonder if we parallel him to Berric and see what we get. 

[Pain killer Jane]

1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

Unknown sigils, but name suggets they might contain plants: Amber, Ashwood, Blackmyre, Boggs, Bole, Branch, Forrester, Greengood, Grenwood, Holt, Peat, Woodfoot, Woods.

House Forrester while their sigil isn't attested to in the novel is part of one of the video games and their sigil is two weirwoods superimposed upon each other and a black sword inside of them. 

[Bluetiger]

Just now, Pain killer Jane said:

House Forrester while their sigil isn't attested to in the novel is part of one of the video games and their sigil is two weirwoods superimposed upon each other and a black sword inside of them. 

Hmm... That evokes Branstokkr...

[Bluetiger]

23 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

and their name is Stane or Stain like sin. @Blue Tiger we should keep in mind House Greenfield with their castle of weirwood named the Bower and then renamed Greenfield. House Stane maybe an echo of House Greenfield especially when we pair it up with Ser Garth Greenfield being imprisoned in Raventree Hall with its dead weirwood. 

Skane is a real word, it seems:

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From Wiktionary:

skåne

Danish:

Etymology:

From Middle Low German schōnen.

PronunciationEdit

IPA(key): /skɔːnə/, [ˈsɡ̊ɔːnə]

Verb:

skåne ‎(imperative skån, infinitive at skåne, present tense skåner, past tense skånede, perfect tense er/har skånet)

spare (to show mercy)

take care of, be careful of

Derived terms:

skånsom ("careful", "gentle")

And 'Stane' means stone in Middle English.

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

By the way, maybe Whitethorn was another of GRRM's inspirations for weirwoods (as he said that Sidhe were inspiration for Others):

I think you're right.  @Seams has identified the 'thorn'/'throne' wordplay, so a 'white thorn' is symbolically a 'white (weirwood greenseer) throne', making the flower blooming in its midst an image of the sovereign sitting his or her throne.

In German the word for 'thorn' is 'Dorn', which brings to mind 'Dorne' and 'Dawn,' making Jon's birthplace figuratively the blooming or dawning of the sacrificial savior king (the thorns prick the one who sits it, drawing red drops of blood like berries).

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From Wikipedia:

Crataegus , (from the Greek κράτος kratos strength and άκης akissharp, referring to the thorns of some species) commonly called hawthorn,thornapple, May-tree, whitethorn, orhawberry, is a large genus of shrubs and treesin the family Rosaceae, native to temperateregions of the Northern Hemisphere in Europe, Asia and North America. The name "hawthorn" was originally applied to the species native to northern Europe, especially the common hawthorn C. monogyna, and the unmodified name is often so used in Britain and Ireland. The name is now also applied to the entire genus and to the related Asian genus Rhaphiolepis. The name haw, originally an Old English term for hedge, applies to the fruit.

The color of the fruit is red, so it's the same red-white color scheme of the weirwoods.

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The wood of some hawthorn species is very hard and resistant to rot. In rural North America, it was prized for use as tool handles and fence posts. The wood being hard it is described by Johns as the best substitute for boxwood for wood engraving.

(...)

Robert Graves, in his book The White Goddess, traces and reinterprets many European legends in which the whitethorn (hawthorn), also called the May-tree, is central.

In Celtic lore, the hawthorn plant was used commonly for inscriptions along with Yew and Apple. It was once said to heal the broken heart. In Ireland, the red fruit is, or was in living memory , called the Johnny MacGorey or Magory.

Serbian and Croatian folklore notes hawthorn (Serbian глог / glog, Croatian glog) is particularly deadly to vampires, and stakes used for their slaying must be made from the wood of the thorn tree[citation needed].

This is reminiscent of how Bloodraven slew 3 black dragons (Daemon and his sons) with 'a white arrow and a black spell,' hinting of weirwoods as powerful weapon, both literally and figuratively.  And the 'Barn/Branstokkr' myth.

The figure you highlighted, namely 'Barth Blacksword' apart from being a wordplay on Garth, might also be a play on 'word' with 'sword'...so 'Blacks word'...evoking a sorcerer with a black spell like Bloodraven -- so perhaps the sword isn't black, but white!

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In Gaelic folklore, hawthorn (in Scottish Gaelic, Sgitheach and in Irish, sceach) 'marks the entrance to the otherworld' and is strongly associated with the fairies. Lore has it that it is very unlucky to cut the tree at any time other than when it is in bloom; however, during this time it is commonly cut and decorated as a May Bush (see Beltane).This warning persists to modern times; it has been questioned by folklorist Bob Curran whether the ill luck of the De Lorean Motor Company was associated with the destruction of a fairy thorn to make way for a production facility.

Hawthorn trees are often found beside clootie wells; at these types of holy wells they are sometimes known as 'rag trees', for the strips of cloth which are tied to them as part of healing rituals. 'When all fruit fails, welcome haws' was once a common expression in Ireland.

@Seams has identified that there is a wordplay on 'well' in the sense of a water repository in addition to the sense of well-being (the German 'wohl'), healthy, hale, whole, and therefore with holes in the ground -- which may be wells.

ETA: and of course, there's a play on whole, hole, and holy too!

In this context, @Wizz-The-Smith and I have identified the association of water with the hollow hills and with weirwoods, e.g. Winterfell has its black pool, the Night Fort its well, Bloodraven's cavern the underground river and 'sunless sea', Horn Hill the pond into which Sam fell and nearly drowned, the House of Black and White the inky pool in the center whose waters bring the 'gift' of death, Casterly Rock the same black water in its cavernous depths (going by Jaime's dream), even the Red Keep (Arya swam through an underground channel to escape), etc.  Going by this pattern, I strongly suspect there should be a weirwood associated with the black pool into which Dany dipped for her purification ritual following the eating of the Stallion's Heart (Vaes Dothrak, the 'womb of the world').

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According to a Medieval legend, theGlastonbury Thorn, Crataegus monogyna'Biflora', which flowers twice annually, was supposed to have miraculously grown from awalking stick planted by Joseph of Arimatheaat Glastonbury in Somerset, England.

This sounds like wild white roses sprouting from a lightning-blasted tree.  A walking stick is like a wizard's staff, magic wand...basically, a tree branch channeling the lightning/fire of gods.  So, when Moqorro or the Ghost of High Heart point their staff, or even when Sam points his finger and lightning is juxtaposed in the text, it's the same idea.

1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And don't forget the garlands being part of this theme of sacrifice. And isn't the crown of blue roses described as turning into a crown of thorns on the head of the wolf aka a Stark? I think that was Ned who dreamt that particluar dream. 

You know we might be looking at a Sansa parallel. A red headed wolf that is also a bird (the other sister Rose of Red Lake) locked in a tower/on a mountain (Sansa's parallel to Sharra Arryn aka the Flower of the Mountain) 

 

2 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And don't forget House Florent and their circle of blue flowers. In Scotland, a hanging tree is a Rowan and a Hawthorn tree growing together.

By 'hanging' you mean they would hang people from it?

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It is a wishing tree grown by the Good People aka the fey. The wishing is mostly associated with lovers. If NN is the Rowen then AA would be the Hawthorn.

In greenseeing terms, that would be the weirwoods (NN) intertwined with the greenseers (AA) in their 'wedding.'

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It would fit with the symbolism as AA is associated with sacrifice (whether his own or others) for power or mercy -this would incorporate the scarecrow, crown of thorns and flowers, hanging on a tree, and love being a double edged sword.

ETA: The magic that we are seeing is partly due to this concept of wishing in rl. A wishing tree (a lighting struck tree with hanging dead bodies, a penny tree) and wishing upon a falling star. 

The notion of a wishing tree would also fit with the frequent association of weirwoods with wells (or other bodies of still, cold black water), and the symbolism of the well/web of Urdr (fate, etc.) at the base of Yggdrasil, so a wishing well, as you pointed out with the TS Eliot poem:

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e shall not cease from exploration 
And the end of all our exploring 
Will be to arrive where we started 
And know the place for the first time.
Through the unknown, remembered gate
When the last of earth left to discover
Is that which was the beginning;
At the source of the longest river
The voice of the hidden waterfall
And the children in the apple-tree
Not known, because not looked for 
But heard, half heard, in the stillness
Between the two waves of the sea.
Quick now, here, now, always--
A condition of complete simplicity
(Costing not less than everything)
And all shall be well and
All manner of things shall be well
When the tongues of flame are in-folded
Into the crowned knot of fire
And the fire and the rose are one.

		        Little Gidding V,
		        Four Quartets.
		        -- T.S. Eliot (1943)

 

1 hour ago, LmL said:

A driftwood hall on an island? That's interesting. The "stone born" aren't much different than "iron born" are they?

'A driftwood hall on an island' dovetails with the description of the Winterfell godswood as an 'island in the sea of chaos'.

Stone contains metallic elements, like iron, so they are not really that different (but who knows -- that is science and maybe GRRM has invented a whole other definition for 'stone' quite apart from our 'real-world' geological norms, so I guess we'll never know for sure!)  Also, iron is a frequent component of meteorite.

46 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

House Vypren in the Riverlands with their black lilly pad and black toad. Definitely pointing at the toad being poisonous because the house name is derived from viper. And that member that seems like a parallel to the mummer's version of Asha. 

Perhaps the black lily pad is a kind of landing pad for the black toad -- aka meteorite coming in to land in the 'pond' from outer space!  Isn't there also a mysterious oily black stone toad of obscure origins somewhere?

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ETA: Or House Wylde of Rain House in the Stormlands. The storm in their sigil can stylistically look like a rose. And their is the association between storm and roses in Ned's dream. 

Good catch!  That sigil could be many things, including the whorls of a rose, the eye of a hurricane, or the interlocking spirals of a galaxy.  

It also ties in to @LmL's idea of the column of ash rising like a tree or flower.  Additionally, I've indicated the pun on 'rose' used as a noun vs. verb -- i.e. in the latter, sense of 'rose from the dead,' 'rose from the ashes', etc.

31 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

House Forrester while their sigil isn't attested to in the novel is part of one of the video games and their sigil is two weirwoods superimposed upon each other and a black sword inside of them. 

Perfect!

31 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Hmm... That evokes Branstokkr...

Indeed!  

40 minutes ago, LmL said:

54 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

We have a very significant hedge knight that was a gallow's knight, Ser Duncan.

Yes, a barrel of symbolism, that one. He's also got the falling green star (dragon) and the elm tree. He also drinks from the winged chalice of immortality, which is how he survived the hangman thing

All of this could apply to Bran skinchanging a giant of course in order to approximate Ser Duncan's stature.  Playing with words, from a certain perspective Bran stuck in the 'hedge', maze, 'briar' or 'garth' of weirwoods is a kind of 'hedge knight' literally!  Similarly, being sacrificed to the tree (Sleipner-Yggdrasil as 'gallows horse') he's also a 'gallow's knight.'  Unlike Ser Duncan, I don't expect Bran to survive the hanging in the traditional sense, although I believe he'll skinchange all the elements and become universal -- just as was intimated in Varamyr's prologue.

46 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

By the way, I've ordered English 'Game of Thrones' and it should arrive next Wednesday... Anyone would be interested in a re-read focused on Norse Mythology (and Mythical Astronomy?), to try to find more clues, references and see how GRRM uses all those myths in his tapestry of words?

@ravenous reader, you're fond of anagrams... And your nickname's is 'Ravenous Re-read'

Ha ha -- good one!  Except I can barely keep up with the commentary as it is, so maybe that's a misnomer 

I think @LmL was right about me -- I'm more of a ravenous writer than reader!

46 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

'Too many heirs' became 'too many ancestors'...

And 'ancient house' became simply 'old house'...

The second isn't so bad, although the first is a poor translation.  At least 'too many heirs' didn't become 'too many hairs'!

[Bluetiger]

7 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I think you're right.  @Seams has identified the 'thorn'/'throne' wordplay, so a 'white thorn' is symbolically a 'white (weirwood greenseer) throne', making the flower blooming in its midst an image of the sovereign sitting his or her throne.

In German the word for 'thorn' is 'Dorn', which brings to mind 'Dorne' and 'Dawn,' making Jon's birthplace figuratively the blooming or dawning of the sacrificial savior king (the thorns prick the one who sits it, drawing red drops of blood like berries).

The color of the fruit is red, so it's the same red-white color scheme of the weirwoods.

This is reminiscent of how Bloodraven slew 3 dragons (Daemon and his sons) with 'a white arrow and a black spell,' hinting of weirwoods as powerful weapon, both literally and figuratively.  And the 'Barn/Branstokkr' myth.

The figure you highlighted, namely 'Barth Blacksword' apart from being a wordplay on Garth, might also be a play on 'word' with 'sword'...so 'Blacks word'...evoking a sorcerer with a black spell like Bloodraven -- so perhaps the sword isn't black, but white!

'A driftwood hall on an island' dovetails with the description of the Winterfell godswood as an 'island in the sea of chaos'.

Good catch!  That sigil could be many things, including the whorls of a rose, the eye of a hurricane, or the interlocking spirals of a galaxy.  

It also ties in to @LmL's idea of the column of ash rising like a tree or flower.  Additionally, I've indicated the pun on 'rose' used as a noun vs. verb -- i.e. in the latter, sense of 'rose from the dead,' 'rose from the ashes', etc.

 

Ha ha -- good one!  Except I can barely keep up with the commentary as it is, so maybe that's a misnomer 

I think @LmL was right about me -- I'm more of a ravenous writer than reader!

The second isn't so bad, although the first is a poor translation.  At least 'too many heirs' didn't become 'too many hairs'!

I'm really interested in all that plant symbolism & role in myth stuff - after all I'm writing story which is variation on Holly vs Oak King (Winter vs Summer) mytheme... Whitethorn... Yes, that'll do as certain place's name, after translation... I'm worried about how it'll work, as I have no prior experience when it comes to translating prose... But let's hope it'll be fine...

With every moment I'm becoming more and more amazed by GRRM's skills...

[ravenous reader]

16 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

I'm really interested in all that plant symbolism & role in myth stuff - after all I'm writing story which is variation on Holly vs Oak King (Winter vs Summer) mytheme... Whitethorn... Yes, that'll do as certain place's name, after translation... I'm worried about how it'll work, as I have no prior experience when it comes to translating prose... But let's hope it'll be fine...

With every moment I'm becoming more and more amazed by GRRM's skills...

I was reading a few of @Voice's theories, including his idea that the central event which 'broke' the cycle and sent the seasons spinning out of whack was the duel between Ned Stark vs. Arthur Dayne.  He interprets this as a primal contest between the Stark (Star + Dark) representing the 'Night's King' line and Dayne (Day + Dawn) representing the 'Sword of the Morning'.  He asserts, when the Night felled the Day, it was a signal for the Others and Winter to return en force.  There is something to this theory, particularly as Voice points out the blue eyes of death exploding across the sky in a storm of petals appear for the first time in the very moment as Arthur dies, together with the ouroboros imagery of the beginning and ending conjoining (now it begins/ends) which seems significant.  What do you think about Ned and Arthur as Holly and Oak kings respectively?  Also, what puzzles me is why Arthur says 'now it begins' -- What is beginning from his perspective?  Whereas Ned says 'now it ends' -- perhaps that means the long summer is ending and Winter is Coming'!

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.

 

[Pain killer Jane]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

By 'hanging' you mean they would hang people from it?

In the rl version it would mean hanging bits of cloth from the branches for wishes, in most cases the wishes were from lovers. It would look like a May Pole if the tree was a flowering tree. GRRM is saying that prayer is wishing. Hanging people from trees as a sacrifice was meant to  bribe the gods on the fulfillment of prayers i.e. a wishes. And so a scarecrow is a may pole/man pole. A hanging tree was meant to convey the wishes of humanity to the Good People aka the Fey i.e. the Children of the Forest. 

Penny Tree in the town of Penny tree is an oak tree that has copper pennies stuck to it. There is a penny tree in England in rl if I am remembering that. A tall tree filled with metal would attract lightning. Renly is the bright copper per Donal Noye, sacrificed by Stannis and was resurrected as Garland who is now the Lord of Brightwater Keep where we find the sigil of House Florent with its crown of blue rose and red wolf. The town of Pennytree is in between the Teats (in the middle of the chest of a woman where the heart is) and is constantly fought over by House Blackwood (Greenseers) and House Bracken (Horse people/dragon people if consider Drogo's rebirth as Drogon. Red Horse turning into a Black dragon.) The Penny Tree is also in between the blacksmith's and a duck pond. This would look like the Hearttree in Winterfell with the pond and we find the Penny Tree next to a blacksmith where swords are made. 

And something else we should consider. Hugh the Hammer(formally a blacksmith), dragonseed traitor (going from black to green) riding Vermithor (a combo of Vermillion - red color and Thor for the lightning God) the Bronze Fury (Bronze being an alloy of Copper). And since we have First Men running around with bronze swords and axes cutting down Hearttrees, it would be an echo of Lightbringer (lightning, fire of the gods, spear, sword, burning brand) plunging into the heart of NN. 

ETA: I also wanted to add that a copper surrounded by fire can be found in the sigil of House Thenn which was created when Alys Karstark (Icy moon maiden) married Sigorn son of Styr with his ash and bronze spear and bronze scale armor. That armor should remind us of House Royce and their Bronze Armor covered in runes and their home is called Runestone (ruin-stone). 

[ravenous reader]

4 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

The Penny Tree is also in between the blacksmith's and a duck pond. This would look like the Hearttree in Winterfell with the pond and we find the Penny Tree next to a blacksmith where swords are made. 

The equivalent of the 'blacksmith's forge' at Winterfell would be the crypts and the subterranean tectonic/volcanic arena in general.  So when Bran is sent by Ned to overnight in the godswood in order to 'cleanse' himself, the same way the sword Ice is 'cleansed' in the pool, that is Bran being fashioned into a sword; and when he's hiding out in the Winterfell crypt, this aids the opening of his third eye substantially. Symbolically, he's a broken sword undergoing reforging.

[Pain killer Jane]

50 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

The notion of a wishing tree would also fit with the frequent association of weirwoods with wells (or other bodies of still, cold black water), and the symbolism of the well/web of Urdr (fate, etc.) at the base of Yggdrasil, so a wishing well, as you pointed out with the TS Eliot poem:

I don't think that was me with TS Eliot. But I agree the wishing well is a part of that trio of symbolism as well. The Penny Tree by the duck pound. Odin wished for more knowledge/magic/power and sacrificed his eye for it in order to drink from Mirir's well, Mimisbrunnr. 

ETA: I will counter with William Blake 

• The rat, the mouse, the fox, the rabbit: watch the roots; the lion, the tyger, the horse, the elephant, watch the fruits.
• The cistern contains; the fountain overflows.
• One thought, fills immensity.
  
  - Proverbs of Hell, William Blake 

 

[ravenous reader]

3 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I don't think that was me with TS Eliot. But I agree the wishing well is a part of that trio of symbolism as well. The Penny Tree by the duck pound. Odin wished for more knowledge/magic/power and sacrificed his eye for it in order to drink from Mirir's well, Mimisbrunnr. 

 

On 12/15/2016 at 5:03 PM, Pain killer Jane said:

Love the knottiness and naughtiness pun about living. And yes I agree that the perpetual tying of the knot in order to achieve a final state of the self is another testament of being human. And in the end, it is the frustration of uncertainty given birth by hope. 

As T.S. Elliot puts "all shall be well" where being 'well' is a wish and a will (thus a wishing well) and so the wishing and willing leads to the frustration of the exploring will start and end at the well of hope.  

 

[Pain killer Jane]

53 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Stone contains metallic elements, like iron, so they are not really that different (but who knows -- that is science and maybe GRRM has invented a whole other definition for 'stone' quite apart from our 'real-world' geological norms, so I guess we'll never know for sure!)  Also, iron is a frequent component of meteorite.

I sent LmL an article named, Barns Are Painted Red because of the Physics of Dying Stars. 

 

[Bluetiger]

2 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I sent LmL an article named, Barns Are Painted Red because of the Physics of Dying Stars. 

 

Nice!

Have I told you about WesterosCraft of which I'm proud member?

Last summer I was leading a holdfast located very close to Winterfell's walls... Small projects, few grey stone houses and two red barns, in Scandinavian style... Turns out I was unknowingly doing the right thing...

[Bluetiger]

24 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I was reading a few of @Voice's theories, including his idea that the central event which 'broke' the cycle and sent the seasons spinning out of whack was the duel between Ned Stark vs. Arthur Dayne.  He interprets this as a primal contest between the Stark (Star + Dark) representing the 'Night's King' line and Dayne (Day + Dawn) representing the 'Sword of the Morning'.  He asserts, when the Night felled the Day, it was a signal for the Others and Winter to return en force.  There is something to this theory, particularly as Voice points out the blue eyes of death exploding across the sky in a storm of petals appear for the first time in the very moment as Arthur dies, together with the ouroboros imagery of the beginning and ending conjoining (now it begins/ends) which seems significant.  What do you think about Ned and Arthur as Holly and Oak kings respectively?  Also, what puzzles me is why Arthur says 'now it begins' -- What is beginning from his perspective?  Whereas Ned says 'now it ends' -- perhaps that means the long summer is ending and Winter is Coming'!

Interesting concept... I'll take a look at few Arthur Dayne scenes and write what I think about it...

[Pain killer Jane]

55 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Perhaps the black lily pad is a kind of landing pad for the black toad -- aka meteorite coming in to land in the 'pond' from outer space!  Isn't there also a mysterious oily black stone toad of obscure origins somewhere?

sorry I meant white lilly pad. I made things opposite. I made the white lilly pad, black and the black snake in the Wyl sigil green. It might mean something if I am slipping like that. 

I would say that it landed in the Silver Sea where the Fisher Queens (being wise and benevolent) lived in their floating palace like House Fenn does in the Neck. Silver should always invoke healing, Mercury and poison. 

The Toad Stone is on the Isle of Toads which is part of the Basilisk Isles rule over by Pirate Kings. 

[ravenous reader]

15 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I sent LmL an article named, Barns Are Painted Red because of the Physics of Dying Stars. 

 

Very cool!

And of course iron is vital component of blood and its oxygen-trapping and -carrying capacity, and also responsible in part for the red pigmentation.  GRRM highlights all the time that blood tastes metallic -- iron and copper-- and salty.

9 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

sorry I meant white lilly pad. I made things opposite. I made the white lilly pad, black and the black snake in the Wyl sigil green. It might mean something if I am slipping like that. 

Works even better if lily pad is white (corresponding to weirwood) and toad is black (meteor/dragon)!

I think if you are 'slipping' it means that GRRM enjoys inversions -- and confusing us!

[Pain killer Jane]

49 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

54 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I don't think that was me with TS Eliot. But I agree the wishing well is a part of that trio of symbolism as well. The Penny Tree by the duck pound. Odin wished for more knowledge/magic/power and sacrificed his eye for it in order to drink from Mirir's well, Mimisbrunnr. 

 

On 12/15/2016 at 2:03 PM, Pain killer Jane said:

Love the knottiness and naughtiness pun about living. And yes I agree that the perpetual tying of the knot in order to achieve a final state of the self is another testament of being human. And in the end, it is the frustration of uncertainty given birth by hope. 

As T.S. Elliot puts "all shall be well" where being 'well' is a wish and a will (thus a wishing well) and so the wishing and willing leads to the frustration of the exploring will start and end at the well of hope.  

 

damn, RR! I didn't even remember that comment. I really am slipping.